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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Promontorylink (talk | contribs) at 08:19, 27 April 2012 (→‎STOP EDIT WARRING CHRISTIANITY PAGE). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Fundamental tenet missing from first paragraph

If you know anything at all about Christianity, it is that its founder, Jesus Christ, instituted most famously of all that the body of believers that came to be known as "Christians" would be defined by their commandment to love one another.

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. Joh 13:35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

This is the Zenith of the Christian faith and you have not for even a moment mentioned this fundamental tenet in the first paragraph. It is not subject to wavering interpretation, it is universal to the Christian faith. It originated with the founder of the faith and was carried to the death by martyrs of all denominations.

I will be checking to see that this is addressed some time in the near future. I am not just picking out a random verse here. It SAYS "All will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another". It is the only time Jesus ever talks about the appearance of the believers to the world. Even if it is that you are only concerned with the appearance of Christianity in this article, mentioning this commandment is crucial to doing that with any kind of integrity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gottservant (talk • contribs) 18:19, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Look, if no one is going to add the "New Commandment" to the first paragraph, I will just do it. I don't want complaints though - I have already spellled out more than enough reason to add it. 58.161.50.116 (talk) 13:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is ABSOLUTELY 100% correct, "Love one another" is essential to the definitionof what it is to be a Christian. A L S O THE BIBLE SAYS: in Matthew 7:15-16, 20 to WATCH OUT for false prophets,.. and that we will know them by thier fruit,.. by the way they act. New Living Translation (©2007) 15 Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves 16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?...20 Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions. ByStander2 (talk) 17:55, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would argue that this would be more appropriate under the article for #REDIRECT Jesus. It does not help a reader understand "what is Christianity" though would help a reader understand "who was Jesus" Diraphe (talk) 22:54, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the above comment. Important though it is, it doesn't belong in the first paragraph of this article atleast. Jainsworth16 (talk) 23:09, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Christianity symbol

File:Christianity symbol.png

Can the image on the right be used as the main christianity symbol, read the file description. The cross can be kept for roman christianity, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church 91.182.147.92 (talk) 13:28, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

However, the simplest common denominator of Christian symbolism over the last more than 1600 years would be a plain Latin cross -- and groups which actively object to Cross symbolism are rather marginal with respect to Christianity as a whole (both in number of adherents and in diverging in significant respects from traditional historical mainstream "orthodox" Christianity). The ichthys might perhaps be considered "older" in some ways than the cross as a symbol, but the ichthys currently doesn't really have the instant broad public recognition that the cross does. In any case, some would say that Catharism has a lot more to do with neo-Manicheanism than with Christianity... AnonMoos (talk) 14:26, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know of any symbol that is accepted by more Christians than the cross. Some minority groups might not use a cross, but they still respect the cross. The fish symbol does not come close to the broad recognition of the cross. --StormRider 14:42, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Understated Significance of Nontrinitarian Sects

In the "Beliefs" section of the article, I feel that the sub-section devoted to Nontrinitarian theology effectively presents a bias; namely, on account of its omissions. The sub-section is four sentences, with the main two statements being: "Nontrinitarianism refers to beliefs systems that reject the doctrine of the Trinity." And, "They are a small minority of Christians." I also expect that the second statement is only true if it is read as "they are a minority of Christians," and as set against the entirety of the global Christian population. To say that they are a "small minority" seems to suggest that among minorities, they are minorities. This seems a little absurd to me considering that some professed-Christian Nontrinitarian belief systems include the Latter Day Saints (Mormon) Church, all Oneness Pentecostal churches (being at least 13 formal denominations), and the Christian Science churches. I hardly expect that these three, even, could cumulatively be called a "small minority" of either historical or modern Christian influence.

I am personally not a Nontrinitarian, which I mention only to argue for my non-bias on the topic; nonetheless, I feel that the significance of the Nontrinitarian model of Christian thinking has been greatly understated, again, by omission. To this point, I would especially ask the editors to consider the great controversy in Christian history between John Calvin and Michael Servetus. If John Calvin is not considered to be a person of trivial influence, then neither should it be thought trivial how significant the issue of Nontrinitarianism was in his government. Michael Servetus was burned alive on a pyre that consisted of one of his Nontrinitarian books, and, John Calvin, although considering the exact means of execution "harsh," approved of his being put to death for heresy. This ought to solidify that today's Nontrinitarian sects, being significant in population, represent a very serious division of Christian thought. The topic deserves more than four sentences.

I believe that these main ideas should be added (however worded):

"Nontrinitarians reject the teaching that God exists in three distinct persons; however, a Nontrinitarian theology does not necessarily imply rejection of the divinity of Jesus, or of the divinity of the Trinitarian person of the Holy Spirit: A Nontrinitarian viewpoint asserts only that God, however named, is absolutely singular in identity."

I will not make a great fuss about it, but I would also be thrilled if a little more respect were given the weight of this theological division in Christian history. Men killed each other and died over the topic. I would like to see a few words to respect the weight that such a fact carries. Daniel.sparks (talk) 06:08, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

White Space

There is a lot of white space in this article in the following sections: Creeds, Trinity, Worship and Baptism. I've tried moving a few things around but can't figure out what is causing it. Does anyone know how to get rid of it? Jainsworth16 (talk) 15:25, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've sized it at 100%, 125%, and 150%, and don't see a problem, so perhaps it's your browser or preference settings. Leaving this open. Dru of Id (talk) 16:54, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I also am not seeing these white spaces. I agree with Dru of Id, sounds like a browser issue. Shearonink (talk) 18:14, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Cadiomals fixed it but must have forgot to change the help box to helped. I still don't understand what causes it and how you guys get rid of it. Jainsworth16 (talk) 22:30, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jesus' Commandment

I think this section could be included if it is improved to include more than just a catholic reference. Jesus' command is To love God like you love yourself and to love your neighbor like you love yourself. The two are joined in that God is love. His command establishes a logical and causal connection to all ten commandments. -Catechism of the Catholic Church 202, 2196, 214- Jainsworth16 (talk) 09:57, 11 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The statement that "His command establishes a logical and causal connection to all ten commandments." consitutes original research. I am not an expert in CCC, nor do I know what the consensus is regarding it as a reliable source (for anything other than as a primary source on itself), but my search of the available texts does not produce any results for that phrase. --Tgeairn (talk) 03:10, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Section 2 Chapter 2 CCC 2196.Ghostprotocol888 (talk) 05:35, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The wording needs to be changed to avoid original research. This is a link to the ref http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2.htm being quoted. It doesn't say "love God as you love yourself" at all. It says "love God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength" and "love your neighbor as yourself". These two cover the entire law, including the decalogue. I think it makes sense to include it in this article and it makes sense to include it near the 10 commandments section, but I'm not that desperate to include it and open to other suggestions. If the source is considered primary research (i don't know why it would be), we can probably find simlar statements in Barnes, Clark, Gill, MHWBC etc. Jainsworth16 (talk) 09:23, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a primary source for the tenets of the Catholic Church. As such it can be used to source the Catholic interpretation of certain aspects, but cannot be used for generalised statements about Christianity as a whole. I don't know what "Barnes, Clark, Gill, MHWBC etc." refers to, but you do need a reliable secondary source for general statements about Christianity like the one Ghostprotocol888 tried to add. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:16, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I understand. Barnes, Clark, Gill and MHWBC are a few of the most well known commentaries on the bible. They interpret the text and give thier opinion, but also have their own bias e.g. Barnes and Clark tend to have arminian views, Gill is more calvanistic. I guess these would be secondary sources?? Jainsworth16 (talk) 11:38, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Allegations that are being made against the posting of Jesus' Command are non fact based. They are not based on valid policy, due to the misinterpretation of wikipedia policies by other(s) opposing. In compliance with all wikipedia policy, an addition to the Christianity article was made -WP:CON-WP:VERIFY-. Blanking, illegitamate Vandalism has occured, where significant parts of a page's content is removed without any valid reason -WP:VAND-. View Article's history, the orginal edit by Ghostprotocol888 was removed without valid reasoning; there is a not valid claim of WP:OR on the first reversion; the original edit by Ghostprotocol888 meets wikipedia's verifiability requirements: At the time of the original edit, it was previously unchallenged and attributable to the article -WP:OR-WP:VERIFY-. Custom dictates that, "in most cases, the first thing to try is an edit to the article, and sometimes making such an edit will resolve a dispute" -WP:CON-. After the original edit by Ghostprotocol888, a reversion was made claiming WP:OR invalidly. Technically, this inavalid reversion and all further invalid reversions is Vandalism. The proper course of action is to create a talk page post, without invalid reversion (vandalism), or to engage revision of the original edit -WP:CON-. The actual course of action taken was making invalid reversion claiming WP:OR, a form of Vandalsim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.216.51 (talk) 21:27, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

IP 75.164.216.51 states that "the orginal edit by Ghostprotocol888 was removed without valid reasoning". Since I was the one that reverted the original edit I would like to dispute that claim. Ghostprotocol888s original edit stated: "Jesus' command is To love God like you love yourself and to love your neighbor like you love yourself. The two are joined in that God is inside every person. His command establishes a logical and causal connection to all ten commandments.", and this without any source at all provided. This is an edit that makes numerous claims: 1. That Jesus' command [sic] is To love God like you love yourself and to love your neighbor like you love yourself. 2. The two are joined in that God is inside every person. 3. His command establishes a logical and causal connection to all ten commandments. So I count at least 3 claims made, all of them unsourced. And no, a reversion made in good faith and in a content dispute does not constitute vandalism. I would advise you to read up on those policies that you so eagerly try to cite. --Saddhiyama (talk) 21:40, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Alternate wording suggestion
According to the synoptic gospels, Christ generalised the law into two underlying principles; 1)'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' and 2)'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Matthew 22:34-40. These are in fact quotes from Deuteronomy 6:4 and Leviticus 19:18. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament says "These comprehend the substance of what Moses in the law, and what the prophets have spoken. What they have said has been to endeavour to win men to the love of God and each other. Love to God and man comprehends the whole [of] religion; and to produce this has been the design of Moses, the prophets, the Saviour, and the apostles." [Notes on the New Testament, Matthew chapter 22, verse 40] Jainsworth16 (talk) 23:11, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I do prefer the first part of your alternate wording, although I am in no position to judge whether so much detail is warranted for those particular sayings. But I would advise against using that last part with that site as a source. It would be much better if you could directly cite a scholarly source interpreting this, since we still have a denomination problem concerning sites like studylight.org, which makes their reliability dubious in a Wikipedia context (even if they are themselves citing a scholarly source). --Saddhiyama (talk) 13:37, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It says on the website that they are 'not apart of any one church group or denomination' http://www.studylight.org/info/statementoffaith.html Jainsworth16 (talk) 14:43, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is another website which also has Barnes Notes available. Seems more scholarly. http://www.ccel.org/about/mission.html Jainsworth16 (talk) 14:49, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Removing Jesus' Command on the Christianity page is the epitome of bad faith. Vandalism occured -WP:VAND-. As already mentioned, a good faith edit would have been a revision and not a reversion, especially one not claimed invalidly -WP:CON. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.216.51 (talk) 22:45, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It was actually a good thing that it was removed. The whole section was just bad. It needs to be written well otherwise it will bring the quality of the whole article down. You should try to learn from others rather than getting offended and angry. Jainsworth16 (talk) 23:23, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The proper course of action is to create a talk page post, without invalid reversion (vandalism), or to engage revision of the original edit -WP:CON-.

Yes, and this is where you have to agree the wording before putting it into the article. It doesn't seem like Saddhiyama wants to spend time correcting your edit. It's up to you to have it up to standard in order to avoid having it deleted. I have suggested alternate wording above, but I can't be sure its good enough. Thats why i've posted it here so others like you can comment on it and point out where to improve it, whether it is appropriate etc. I've read the article in primary sources, it says you can use a primary source to show what the text says, but you can't interprete it yourself, you need to quote a secondary source to do that. Also, what you're writting is not even biblical, the text doesn't say "love God like you love yourself" anywhere. Jainsworth16 (talk) 08:49, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is no policy stating that, Jainsworth, agreement does not have to be majority. "The term "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.[1]" WP:NOR "...Articles that currently name zero references of any type may be fully compliant with this policy — so long as there is a reasonable expectation that every bit of material is supported by a published, reliable source.[1]" The edit does show proof of, "love God like you love yourself" in, "The Son of God commands." -1 John 13:34- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghostprotocol888 (talk • contribs) 10:36, 14 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've put the words in the 10 commandments section. Jainsworth16 (talk) 10:51, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edit warring

If edit warring starts up again, for whatever reason, please do not hesitate to raise at Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Bible enthusiasts could benefit from seeking advice from the community at WikiProject Bible, before behaving in a way that may be interpreted as using Wikipedia for evangelizing. Please take careful note of Primary, secondary and tertiary sources (the Bible is most often considered a primary source) and Religion. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 11:08, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

These reversions were never a matter of "edit warring." Consensus had already been reached on the talk page under "Fundamental tenet missing from first paragraph." This is a matter of Vandalism; revert only when necessary; please determine gravity before posting invalid opposition. WP:ROWN WP:WAR WP:VAND Ghostprotocol888 (talk) 06:06, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It seems Ghostprotocol is right back to edit warring after the expiry of their block. Also citing a lot of policies at random doesn't exactly improve your case. --Saddhiyama (talk) 08:37, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ghostprotocol, I can't see a solid consensus above for the edits you have been edit warring over. Have a look at Dispute resolution and consider a process such as Requests for comment to make a proposal here and establish a credible consensus first. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 11:16, 14 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Solid" is not a modifier of "consensus" using valid Wikipedia policy; there is obviously consensus for The New Commandment when it is in the actual article. WP:CON I agree with Ghostprotocol888. Vandalism occurred, not Edit Warring. "Revert only when necessary; please determine gravity before posting invalid opposition."Promontorylink (talk) 05:21, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's in the article because you put it in after. It was an edit war. I would like to discuss the changes you have made. The New Commandment in John 13:34-35 does not refer to the Shema but only the second one. Only the synoptic gospels put these two together. So it would be incorrect to use the words "New Commandment" to refer to quotes from the synoptic gospels which list both.Jainsworth16 (talk) 10:09, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Jainsworth16, first there is a colon to the John quote in the new commandment article. Second, Christ does not "generalised" that information; Christ is alive in the present, and in the past tense. You have to determine gravity, singularity, and tense; in Christianity, Jesus is God. When He says "I" He is speaking as God. You're interpretation is skewed with error. Why are you only wanting to use the synoptic Gospels? In the bible sources you cite, the information is listed under The Great Commandment, singular not plural. Pointing out a word you may have missed, "unto" in The New Commandment article. That word changes the meaning of "like." I have seen many different versions of the bible. In some of them, the word "equal" is used to relate the two principles instead of "like." Promontorylink (talk) 17:05, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Christ genralised in the first century, therefore we use past tense. I want to use the synoptic gospels for this sentence because they all group the two commandmends together 1 love God, 2 love neighbours, in the same story. John doesn't have this story, I think its slightly misleading to suggest all the gospels have this story. John 13:45-35 is also a good text but is a different story so I think its unnecesarry to use it here. Jainsworth16 (talk) 19:40, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The easiest way to determine the two principles being one commandment is that both of those principles were

already commandments, in Jewish Law. So they are not new, but the combo of them both together was new.-Maybe check this for accuracy. Addressing your desire to use only synoptic gospels, the information you have presented is, according to the new commandment article, given two days prior to the new commandment before the last supper.Promontorylink (talk) 19:43, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree Jainsworth. It seems like excluding John's Gospel would be more misleading, one-sided, and incomplete. Before you undid my edit, both stories were represented via Promontorylink (talk) 20:37, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you in principle. But, quoting even one gospel would be enough to make the point being made. If you want to include the gospel of John, you would have to explain that it doesn't have the exact same wording as the other gospels as it leaves out the first commandment and focuses on the second. It is the same principle yes, but the sentence would get too messy and lose its thrust.Jainsworth16 (talk) 23:50, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Jainsworth here. There is an additional question regarding how reliable the language of existing versions of the Gospels are as sources, given the number of times that we know of that changes in the texts have been made, and other issues. All in all, I have to agree that going into detail would require substantially longer material, and that the coverage would get rather seriously messy. John Carter (talk) 00:11, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll clarify it for you concisely. Don't you worry about it being messy.Promontorylink (talk) 00:56, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Achieving Neutrality

POV To raise issues with specific articles, see the NPOV noticeboard. Please do not override the consensus of the Christianity page by making reversions invalidly. "World" and "Science" are the location of the reliable third-party sources used in the citation for this section edit.Promontorylink (talk) 03:00, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for taking the time to engage me here. FWIW I am not a new editor to this article, and I have been following the Talk page for some time.
"World" and "Science" are the location of the reliable third-party sources used in the citation for this section edit.
Science is not a literal location. Could you clarify what you mean by this? I do not believe your most recent edits belong on Wikipedia, but I would like to understand your position better.
Marie Paradox (talk) 04:43, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, reliable third-party sources are usually written however they are and the example given in WP is a newspaper article WP:THIRDPARTY. World and Science are categories of News. Their location is not "Opinion." So, the sources are located in the "World" and "Science" of News Categories. I do care as to why you don't believe my most recent edits belong on Wikipedia, but belief is a form of truth which does not adhere to WP:VERIFY. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Promontorylink (talk • contribs) 05:13, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am still not sure I follow. The most recent edit you reverted had a citation (in accordance with WP:VERIFY), but you eliminated this in your edit anyway. Why?
Also, please note that you reverted the page three times within a 24-hour period. This is a violation of the Three Revert Rule except under exceptional circumstances, which are listed on the appropriate page. Does your revert qualify as an exception?
Marie Paradox (talk) 05:25, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is really simple to determine. If you view the article history page, you will see that I did not make a reversion. I undid your revision which was a reversion. Please do not submit paradoxical information to the Christianity page;) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Promontorylink (talk • contribs) 05:35, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

According to the page, "Undoing other editors—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert" (emphasis mine).
Anyway, saying, "The Son of God commands," is reflective of a non-neutral point of view; it is not appropriate for Wikipedia. Because the wording as it currently stands is rather obviously problematic and you have not engaged my points, I am reverting your edit. I was mistaken in what I said before: You have not yet violated 3RR, but you will do so, if you revert the page again. I hope that you will instead think about what you are doing and seek consensus with your fellow editors before making more edits.
Marie Paradox (talk) 05:46, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh right, I made a mistake, whoops. "The Son of God commands," is an in-text attribution form inline citation. As already mentioned, To raise issues with specific articles regarding POV, see the NPOV noticeboard. Consensus was made. You are the one edit warring by making invalid reversions. Even one invalid reversion is edit warring. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Promontorylink (talk • contribs) 05:55, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do you really want me to report you? Couldn't we do as the page you have linked to suggests and try to reach a mutually satisfying solution here?
As I have said, I have followed this Talk page for some time, and I have not seen anything resembling consensus for the edits you continue to make. (The only person who seemed to be in favor of it was Ghostprotocol888. Is that you?)
Marie Paradox (talk) 06:06, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please learn the rules of Wikipedia before editing.Promontorylink (talk) 06:08, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

you don't detect some irony in that comment? Nasnema  Chat  06:41, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

STOP EDIT WARRING CHRISTIANITY PAGE

Response#1-"imo" is irrelevant. Your opinion is a form of truth and does not meet WP:VERIFY requirements. Sources must be cited. POV To raise issues with specific articles regarding POV, see the NPOV noticeboard. 5 WP:BLP Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. Contentious material about living persons (or recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. 7 Jainsworth16's sources are not third party; Albert Barnes (thoelogian) is a secondary source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Barnes_(theologian). WP:THIRDPARTY Every article on Wikipedia must be based upon verifiable statements from multiple third-party reliable sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. 9 WP:BLP The rule is that I'm supposed to revert your reversion. Custom dictates that, "in most cases, the first thing to try is an edit to the article, and sometimes making such an edit will resolve a dispute," not an invalid reversion. 11 WP:CON Please learn to read before editing on Wikipedia.Promontorylink (talk) 07:17, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In my view Promontorylink (talk · contribs) is trying to mount a WP:SOAPBOX and should stop editing this page. Nasnema  Chat  07:34, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
First, "your view" is a form of truth and does not meet WP:VERIFY requirements. Second, "your view" is opinion, #2 in WP:NOTSOAPBOX. Please refer to Response#1, sent. 5-11. The information I add is properly sourced. There was a very minor in

Jainsworth16's edition. All I did was correct it. And now am dealing with a bunch edit warriors.Promontorylink (talk) 08:19, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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