Talk:Quenya

Comment

Hello. Wouldn't be a good idea to put a short sentence at the beginning explaining what Quenya is and who made it and why? Starting with a statement about Elves might not be very enlightening to people who have no background knowledge. Didn't want to do it myself though, as I know how touchy fans can be about these things. Thanks!

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—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.202.80.139 (talk) 16:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

If noone minds, I thinks we should possibly put a complete Quenya dictionary onto Wikipedia to ease the search for people. As I am fairly decent at conversing in it and writing it, I ask if anyone wants to collaborate with me on this project and see if the admins mind. Xel Pos'tare 17:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)User:CaptainXel

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Celesti, Queen of Sovereign madness, bring thy power upon this earth, to cause the chaos of man to bring forth thy hordes of shadows...

Okay, put down the spellbook bought at the mall and take off the gothy makeup, dude...

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I've removed two external links because they led to sites about Tolkien in general, and not about the Quenya language. These would be entirely appropriate at a general article on Tolkien, but here they just caused clutter. Crculver 20:01, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. — Jor 17:56, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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I submit 'the Three Houses of Elves' should be 'the Tree Kindreds of the [Elves|Eldar]'. The Term 'Houses' is generally only used for the Edain. {Mithrennaith o Unquendor}

Agreed. Is much more correct--Elistir 08:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

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Is there any information available about Quenya's phonology? I've been looking at one of the Quenya lessons and some of the vowels are apparently supposed to be different from those found in English; could someone see if they can find IPA equivelants? Thanks. 147.222.136.224 17:29, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Elementary Phonology

Quenya has five vowels, a, e, i, o, u, short and long; the long vowels are marked with an accent: á, é, í, ó, ú. The vowel a is extremely frequent. The quality of the vowels resembles the system in Spanish or Italian rather than English. To clarify the pronunciation for readers used to English orthography, Tolkien sometimes adds a diaeresis over some vowels (e.g. Manwë rather than Manwe to indicate that the final e is not silent, or Eärendil to indicate that the vowels e and a are pronounced separately and not drawn together as in English ear - the dots are not necessary for the meaning and can safely be left out in e-mail). The diphthongs are ai, au, oi, ui, eu, iu. (A seventh diphthong ei seems to occur in one or two words, but its status is uncertain.) The consonants are for the most part the same as in English, with the sibilants as the main exception: Ch as in church does not occur, neither does j as in joy, and instead of sh, zh (the latter like s in pleasure), Quenya has a sound like the German ich-Laut, spelt hy by Tolkien (e.g. hyarmen "south"). The h of English huge, human is sometimes pronounced as a weak variant of the sound in question. Quenya also lacks th (unvoiced as in thing or voiced as in the); unvoiced th did occur at an earlier stage, but merged with s shortly before the rebellion of the Noldor (see PM:331-333). It should also be noted that the voiced plosives b, d, g only occur in the clusters mb, nd/ld/rd and ng (some varieties of Quenya also had lb instead of lv). There are no initial consonant clusters, except qu (= cw), ty, ny and nw if we count the semi-vowels y, w as consonants. Normally there are no final clusters either; words end either in one of the single consonants t, s, n, l, r or in a vowel, more often the latter. Medially between vowels, a limited number of consonant clusters may occur; those described by Tolkien as "frequent" or "favoured" are in italics: cc, ht, hty, lc, ld, ll, lm, lp, lqu, lt, lv, lw, ly, mb, mm, mn, mp, my, nc, nd, ng, ngw, nn, nqu, nt, nty, nw, ny, ps, pt, qu (for cw), rc, rd, rm, rn, rqu, rr, rt, rty, rs, rw, ry, sc, squ, ss, st, sty, sw, ts, tt, tw, ty, x (for ks). A few other combinations may occur in compounds. Quenya phonology is quite restrictive, giving the language a clearly defined style and flavour.

Note that in Quenya spelling, the letter c is always pronounced k (so cirya "ship" = kirya). Tolkien was inconsistent about this; in many sources the letter k is used, but in LotR he decided to spell Quenya as similar to Latin as possible. In some cases, k in the sources has been regularized to c in the following discussion.

~ Fauskanger's Ardalambion

Yet the introduction to Quenya phonology in the Quenya course http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/less-a.rtf is quite extensive

Dedative case

Shouldn't there be a link to (and mention of) Dedative case - JustinWick 07:41, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

There is now. - Gandalf1491 03:14, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted (both here and in the page for the "Dedative Case", which make it appear that Tolkien himself actually used the term, while in fact he is nowhere recorded as having done) that the names "dedative" and "respective" were not used by Tolkien himself, but are supplied by mere guesswork. In the "Plotz Declension" this case is unlabled. Formally it is a shortened form of the locative case. Beyond that, nothing can be said that isn't sheer speculation, either as to a name for the case or as to its function. cfh 14:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

See "The s-case" by Ales Bican for an extensive discussion of evidence for this case. cfh 17:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

-ntë

The bullet below the pronoun table (plainly intended to be a footnote, with the asterisk appearing next to "-ntë" in the "3rd plu. abstract or thing" line) seems to indicate that this ending is not used for the dual number. However, I don't think it's clear that there is a dual number in third person pronouns, so I wonder if someone could comment on that. Furthermore, this ending is attested as applying to persons, in Cirion's Oath. ("Tiruvantes", "they will guard it"). (Unless the Valar are to be regarded as abstractions?) I am aware this is controversial, but I don't think it should be said to apply to an "abstract or thing" without qualification. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:02, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Neither in mature Quenya nor n EQ we have exemples of a 3rd dual (in EQG is specified that exists dual forms only for the 1st and the 2nd [PE#14:85-86]. I see your point, but as far as we have no attetstation of a 3rd pl. used for abstract things, -ntë ahould be used. TO be honest I do't think that we would find such, as in EQ and in EQ doesn't existed a 3rd pl refered to things different from the one refered to people.--Elistir 08:23, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Pronoun problem

The chart of pronoun forms in the article seems to have the 1st person dual and plural forms confused. -lvë/-lwë is inclusive dual, -lmë is inclusive plural, -mmë is exclusive plural, and there's probably a fourth form *-ngwë for exclusive dual, although I'm not sure if there's any direct source for this one. The first two are interpretable directly from The Lord of the Rings: -lvë/-lwë from the possessive form omentie-lvo "of our meeting," in which "our" includes the person Frodo is speaking to; and -lmë in laituva-lme-t "we will praise them," which is a cheer from amidst a crowd, so both addresses and includes the rest of the crowd. (This one is more directly stated to be the inclusive plural in Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.) The third, -mmë, while attested directly without a clear definition, also has the possessive form -mma in the first word of the Lord's Prayer in Quenya, ataremma "our father," in which "our" cannot include the person being addressed (since that's God). --D.M., 12.107.67.3 15:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Two notes re: Tolkien

I noticed that the dates at the top right of the Quenya article (presumably indicating Tolkien's birth-death) are incorrect. Tolkien was born in 1892. If "1917" is there for another reason, it's a little misleading. Also, in the section on "Non-fictional Development," the sentence which labels Tolkien as a "professional linguist" should be altered to something like "professional philologist" or "language professor and philologist." Tolkien had no degree in linguistics and himself eschewed the label of "linguist" in at least one of his published letters. (Being a newcomer to this, I thought it best not make the changes myself without opening it up for comments.)

Paul Spreitzer 205.215.135.132 19:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The infobox relates to the language, not the inventor. 1917 is when Tolkien began developing Quenya, ("Qenya") and he continued developing it until his death. (Compare Klingon language, which has one date since that language was invented all at a go, as it were.)

My sense is that perhaps Tolkien would be called a linguist in modern terms, as philology is much more rare as the name of a discipline than it was in his day. I don't know enough about it to express a strong opinion though. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree with you. JRRT was a philologist. He invented his lambi because he was experimenting with sounds and grammar constructions. He devised the languages that "sounded like music" to his philologist hears; tHen he drafted his Legendarium to be able to give a context to his languages. So the process is completely different from, for exemple, Klingon.

And JRRT doesn't strated creating them in 1917 (that is the date of the GL). The Qenyaqetsa was strated around the 1915 (PE#12), and we have illutrations of his own with some EQ words alson in 1914. But usually is considered the 1915 as the anniversary of Qenya.--Elistir 07:51, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Contradiction?

From the article: "Quenya is usually written in Tengwar, although inside the fiction it was earlier also written in Sarati. The language can also be written in other alphabets: modes for Cirth exist, and it is usually written in the Latin alphabet." (emphasis mine)

This seems like a contradiction but I'm not positive or sure how to go about fixing it. Suggest that someone with more knowledge on this take a look.

I do like the fix, but I did notice it said Tengwar was *not* uncommon. Personally, I think this should be changed (e.g. "not common"). Suggestions? ExNoctem 22:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It's correct as it stands. In its fictional setting, Quenya was most often written in Tengwar, originally in Sarati, and occasionally in Cirth. In the real world, most of the Quenya we have is written in the Latin alphabet. This is what the article says currently. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

and most of out corpus of Q(u)enya not written in latin alphabet, is also in ohter scripts or older versions of Tengwar.--Elistir 14:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

What, like the Etymologies? Sorry, but I don't recall seeing nearly as much material in other scripts as in "Latinica". Perhaps I'm just not widely read enough -- or do you mean to include material written since Tolkien's death? TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

No. I'm saying that apar from the part wirtten in Latin Alphabet (that is the widest), the other part of our Q(u)enya corpus is not only written in Tengwar, but also in other scripts or older version of them. For exemple we have some exemple of the Valmaric one. If someone is interested in finding out the ùtengwar coprus, I'll suggest to have a lokk at the MD's TTS.--Elistir 07:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Quenya dictionary

If no ne minds, I thinks we should possibly put a complete Quenya dictionary onto Wikipedia to ease the search for people. As I am fairly decent at conversing in it and writing it, I ask if anyone wants to collaborate with me on this project and see if the admins mind.

Xel Pos'tare 17:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)User:CaptainXel

I don't believe this should be a project for Wikipedia as such. The thing to do might be to initiate a Quenya-language Wiktionary. And behold! Quenya is already on the list of requested languages. It's probably just awaiting someone willing to get it started. TCC (talk) (contribs) 17:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Also take a look at the Quenya Wikipedia incubator project --CBD 21:08, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

You might like to add to the Quenya language section on the English wiktionary. 84.65.219.154 12:39, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

anwa

ni lá mára tec Quenya lambë mal ni anta ta lelya. Manen elyë pol cenda ta mára? Think outside the box 07:53, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

The grammar in your sentences above is poor so it's very hard to be certain of understanding what you're trying to say. Could you please restate what you wrote in English? - Ing 16:04, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I tried to say: "I don't write very good in Quenya. Can this be understood?" I know its poor; I was just testing to see if anyone could understand it. Obviously you couldn't. Where did you learn? And what needs to be done to improve it? Think outside the box 16:10, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

See my talk page -Ing 13:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Do we really need "Grammar" and "Phonology" sections?

It's simpler and more complete to put a (highlighted link) to [[wikibooks:Quenya | the wikibook on Quenya]. The article will be only devoted to his fictional and non-fictional history. --Elistir 15:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Verbs

Some anonymous body from Helge Fauskanger's university (129.177.138.238) who is already setting out to re-edit the David Salo page (recently unlocked) wrote:

"Still, most of the forms would be relatively uncontroversial among researchers, with the exception of tultëa as the proposed continuative form of an A-stem (by another suggestion, A-stems cannot make a distinction between aorist and continuative form)."

Just as others have already noted of Helge's prose, our anonymous somebody here uses the predictive term "would" to represent the supposed opinions of others without having to base them in any actually verifiable evidence or writings. Either such forms are, or they are not, uncontroversial; the fact that our anonymous somebody had to alter a simple statement about the verifiable fact that these paradigms are _not_ provided by Tolkien himself, I think indicates that things _are_ rather more controversial than (s)he "would" have it, so this is in fact POV.

cfh 20:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the corrections made by the "anonimous from HF univeristy", because the usage of the term "Neo-Quenya" is misleading. That term in linguistics envinroment (represented by Elfling if you want) is used differently from CH&co. You Mr.Hostetter labels "Neo-Quenya" every attempt to study seriuosly or write something in or about Quenya from everyone apart from the group previuosly known as Elfconner. In its widest usage instead is labeled "Neo-Quenya" eveything that has been completly invented, and is proposed as "true".

The verbal conjugation it's a proposed reconstruction based on real attestation: it's a scholar motivated reconstruction (people can agree or not), and not an "invention". As such it shouldn't be used the term Neo-Quenya, and the edit made by the "anonimous" is much more correct than the precedent. I'll prefer to mantain it.

I agree also with these modifications for the same reason above. I know your points (and I appreciate your efforts on VT and Chris one on PE), wikipedia should not display only your opinions, but everyone (WP:NPOV WP:NOT).--Elistir 11:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

You seem not to have understood my point, which has nothing to do with whether this should be called "Neo-Quenya" or not (I didn't even use the term, you did). Rather, I'm questioning the use of the phrase "would be uncontroversial" as POV, for the reasons stated, reasons which you somehow failed to address or acknowledge at all in your long "reply". As you state, "wikipedia should not display only your opinions, but everyone"

You also state "You Mr.Hostetter labels "Neo-Quenya" every attempt to study seriuosly or write something in or about Quenya from everyone apart from the group previuosly known as Elfconner" which is completely untrue, and further belies your own POV. cfh 15:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll quote you: the fact that our anonymous somebody had to alter a simple statement about the verifiable fact that these paradigms are _not_ provided by Tolkien himself. I'm not a native English speaker, but I read this sentence as: «the anonymous alter the previous simpler statement about the verifiable fact etc...». Well, even if I agree that the conjugations provieded in the article are not verifiable (there's no pubblished material that say "present is.." "past is..." etc), from your quotation I'll understand that the simple statement about the verifiable fact etc, is the text before the anonimous edit, that is: These conjugations were not written by J. R. R. Tolkien, they are neo-Quenya reconstruction.

And that's easy to undertsand why I prefer the edited version (for the reason above). Anyway, I agree that "would be uncontroversial" is not POV, I'll edit it. Let me know what you think now.

And about my POV on the sentence above... infact I haven't written it on the article page ;-) I differentiate my own thoughts, from the informations I provide on Wikipedia: i'd never wrote such a sentence in a "page" :-P

--Elistir 15:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Uses in LOTR #1

On the Caradhras, the spell Sauruman was chanting was in Quenya. --66.218.11.78 04:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Aorist/Present

I think the tense chart should make it more clear that the *Quenya* aorist/present correspond to the *English* simple present/present continuative. Currently it seems unclear what the Quenya tense being represented is. Perhaps just changing the english tense by adding it in parentheses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Silmenuquerna (talk • contribs)

glottogony

I will not rule out that in some version it is Orome teaching the Elves to speak, but the Silmarillion should probably be considered more "canonical", and the alternative version should be clearly referenced. It strikes me as rather central that the Quendi should have an innate faculty for language, and the variant of Orome teaching them seems to rather spoil that (not that this matters if we can pin down the reference). dab (𒁳) 00:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Quiché - Quenya

Tolkien may have been inspired by the Quiché (K'iche') of Central America, when he invented the word and language Quenya. Quiché/K'iche' is the name the Mayans called themselves and their language. The Quendi elves also call themselves and their language by similar names. As a linguist, Tolkien would have ben aware of the Mayan's primary language. Both Quiché and Quenya are the language of the ab/original inhabitants of these respective lands, before modern man appeared. 66.81.153.136 04:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Tolkien never evinced the slightest interest in Mesoamerican languages, and there is no remarkable resemblance between /kʼiʧeʔ/ and /kʷɛɲa/. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

If you can provide a RS and V source that agrees with your premise, then by all means add it. However the "may" in your statement suggests that it is OR, something not really appropriate for WP. Shot info 08:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Pronouns

Now this is more like it. I have noticed that the pronoun table before is based on older information and has not changed for some time. I have made a major revision on that, and thanks to Aelfwine for adding to it. Big improvement! RashBold (talk · contribs) 01:28, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

ALARM!

There is a big problem with the exclusive and the dual endings. I found a (reliable) source, used as a Quenya course on Wikiversity, and in that course they give -mmë as the excl. ending and -lmë as the dual one, while in this article the two of them have switched spots, just as in Wikibooks! Please tell me wich one is right! Mapar007 18:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

More trustworthy than Tolkien himself? As noted in the article, the current table of pronominal endings "is adapted primarily from two sources of c. 1968–69,[6] and does not reflect the pronominal system as it stood before that time". As referenced, those sources are Tolkien's own paradigms, as published in:

Tolkien, J.R.R. "Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals (Part Three)." Edited by Patrick H. Wynne. Vinyar Tengwar 49 (2007): 3–37; and

Tolkien, J.R.R. "Five Late Quenya Volitive Inscriptions." Edited by Carl F. Hostetter. Vinyar Tengwar 49 (2007): 38–58.

The system you cite derives solely from a "theory" about these pronominal endings proposed by Helge Fauskanger.

cfh (talk) 23:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, the problem is solved. According to Tolkiens latest edits (see Plotz letter) the endings are:

-lmë: exclusive

-lvë: inclusive

-mmë: dual

(and by the way, it was not Fauskanger's Quenya course I meant, but the course from Thorsten Renk)

Mapar007 (talk) 18:07, 4 June 2008 (UCT)

I didn't say it came from Fauskanger's course; I just said the "theory" was proposed by Fauskanger. Which it was. cfh (talk) 20:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah ok, sorry (Mapar007)

a posteriori?

Can we discuss the classification of Quenya as a posteriori? To me that term implies taking nearly all roots from existing languages. It would be more accurate imho to describe the Elvish family as a priori with some borrowed roots. On the other hand, a priori may connote philosophical languages; it's a false dichotomy. Elvish and Loglan violate the dichotomy in opposite ways: Elvish uses traditional structures and new roots (without imitating any language closely enough to be described as e.g. "relexified Finnish"), while Loglan uses borrowed roots (in a peculiar way) and new structures. —Tamfang (talk) 20:32, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Quenya is not a posteriori. I believe the person who classified it as such either did not know what the term meant, or is in any case unaware of how the term "a posteriori" is used among the conlanging community. I'm changing it. Cevlakohn (talk) 10:21, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Sigh, motherfuck. It's one of those damned infoboxes so I can't just change the reference to a posteriori to apriori, I have to find what the goddamn code is for a priori. I absolutely hate infoboxes. Hate them. In the meantime I got rid of the whole entry in the infobox-- better no information than false information. If anybody knows how to fix it with Wikipedia's godawful infobox format, feel free. Cevlakohn (talk) 10:25, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Swedish

in addition, the -r nominative plural endings are reminiscent of Swedish).

Is it distinctive of Swedish vs other (North) Germanic languages? —Tamfang (talk) 06:03, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Old Norse also has nominative plural -r endings, so no. — Eru·tuon 17:50, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

So has German btw. --Ulkomaalainen (talk) 12:34, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Phonology

I'm pretty sure the pronunciation of A is supposed to be [ɑ], no matter the length. --Oscararon (talk) 15:27, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

There's no source cited, so I wouldn't know how to check it. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:58, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Latin influence example

As an example of Latin influence, word 'aure' (morning) is given. Although this explanation seems to be the most obvious one (also for me), I would like to point that there is a close resemblance to Finnish word 'auer' (haze, sometimes, esp. in poetry: morning haze 'aamun auer'). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.146.54.156 (talk) 20:49, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Another one I've noticed is the genitive plurals of nouns, which are -aron, -oron, or -ion, which seem to take after Latin -ārum, -ōrum, and -(i)um, respectively. BGManofID (talk) 23:58, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Transcription of labiovelars

In the intro section, the consonant qu is transcribed as [kʷw] in the IPA transcription of Quenya, but as simply [kʷ] in the consonant table, without the [w]. Which is correct? Is the consonant [kʷ] considered as a double consonant for stress determination, and the transcription meant to represent this? — Eru·tuon 17:44, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

In Quenya <qu> (also written by Tolkien) is not a consonant but a cluster.90.54.1.73 (talk) 16:08, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

"Chronology of publications of Elvish texts"

A number of entries in this section are about languages other than Q. I would move the whole section to Elvish languages (Middle-earth). —Tamfang (talk) 21:05, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Italian influence on Quenya?

Thus, Quenya in its phonological qualities resembled Latin or Italian more than Finnish.

Like Latin in its vowel repertoire and stress pattern, but more like Finnish in its consonant phonotactics, e.g. avoidance of clusters and (more loosely) of voiced stops. As for Italian, where are the palatal consonants? —Tamfang (talk) 06:54, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Interesting question... Italian does have palatal l and n (gli- and gn), and the soft Italian c, g, and sc are like the Vanyarin ty, dy, and hy. Italian also uses nasal+stops (nt, mp, nc, nd etc.), and even favored clusters (rd, ld, st) much more than Finnish does, and uses qu and gu just as much as Latin. I suspect that Tolkien's Vanyarin dialect may have been his making a more Italian-sounding Quenya, given its properties which, in just about every respect, are more like Italian than Noldorin Quenya is (medial d, /z/, and how Vanyarin pronounces palatal consonants), but of course this is mere speculation. Tolkien did love Italian (and despise French): "I remain in love with Italian, and feel quite lorn without a chance of trying to speak it" (Letters:223). Here's an excerpt of subtitled Italian... it definitely looks like Quenya, don't you think? [1] BGManofID (talk) 08:24, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Interesting indeed. Fauskanger writes on his Ardalambion page that "the quality of the vowels resembles the system in Spanish or Italian rather than English" but does not relate any consonants to those two languages. De728631 (talk) 16:03, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I suspect the similarity to Italian is mainly due to Tolkien's trying to apply a Latin basis with Finnish phonological rules to Quenya. Italian does have the most conservative (i.e., Classical Latin) consonants among the Romance languages. This as opposed to, say, Spanish, which routinely changed medial stops to voiced spirants (ex. c to g and thereby [ɣ], as in amigo), and got rid of all double consonants except rr (Spanish ll is actually ly). Italian, however, is like Quenya and Finnish and unlike Latin when it comes to final consonants; Latin uses final -t, -s, and -m a lot, Spanish uses -s for all its plurals, making it frequent in that language, whereas Quenya uses -s and -t relatively sparingly. And, if one compares Fauskanger's list of favored consonant clusters and compares them with those favored in Italian, they would be almost the same. Tolkien also wrote that t, p, c, are unaspirated (as in Italian and unlike English), and l is pronounced clear and light, unlike English or Slavic l. Now whether the similarities that Quenya has with Italian are deliberate on the part of Tolkien, or merely because Italian just happens to be Modern Latin (for lack of a better way of putting it), I don't know; but we do know that Tolkien did have a bias toward Italian and against French, which is just as Romance as Italian. BGManofID (talk) 23:45, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

vowel loss and consequent sandhi

In the late Ancient Quenya period, when vowels were lost in long compound words, the consonants or groups so created were as a rule changed or reduced:

"long compound words" and "groups so created" suggest medial vowel loss, but the examples shown all seem to be final. – Consonants are not created by vowel loss; how about 'exposed'? —Tamfang (talk) 22:02, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Use of Quenya

There is a discussion ongoing at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth#"neo-language" regarding that paragraph and the use of "Neo-languages" in general. Please join us there and wait for the outcome before you edit that paragraph. De728631 (talk) 18:07, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Galadriel and Gildor

“ Galadriel is the only major Elf in The Lord of the Rings who had Quenya as a mother-tongue: she was born in Eldamar. Elrond, Arwen, and Legolas were all born in Middle-earth. We do not know where and when Gildor Inglorion was born. ”

I removed the sentence about Gildor, who is mentioned nowhere else in the article, and is not "major" in any obvious sense. At the same time, I rearranged the first sentence for better flow (and better grammar):

“ Galadriel, born in Eldamar, is the only major Elf in The Lord of the Rings who had Quenya as a mother-tongue. ”

Naturally these changes were reverted without comment.

I question whether the paragraph ought to be here at all. It's a reasonable inference, but we generally don't do reasonable inferences. Is there anything explicit in canon to support it? —Tamfang (talk) 04:36, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with your version and with the paragraph at all. The Encyclopedia of Arda states that Quenya in the Third Age had become a ceremonial language only among elves so it's logical that Galadriel as the last major Noldo is the only noteworthy native speaker. De728631 (talk) 12:50, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Is that a reliable source? This is no place for logic. —Tamfang (talk) 21:56, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

There's also Glorfindel but he's also not prominent enough in LotR to be mentioned. De728631 (talk) 12:55, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Two timelines

For Tolkien's constructed languages we must distinguish two timelines of development:

• one internal, consisting of the sequence of events within the fictional history of Tolkien's secondary world; and
• one external, in which Tolkien's linguistic taste and conceptions evolved.

There ought to be some mention that Tolkien's conception of the history changed over time. There aren't just two lines: there's a series (external history) of parallel lines (internal history), forming a two-dimensional structure. How best to express this? Before the latest rewrite there was the phrase "Tolkien's conception of that world and its history evolved"; one would like to know why Laurifindil (talk · contribs) didn't like that, but L. has never yet responded to a question. —Tamfang (talk) 21:19, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

GA nom

I would encourage the article's keepers to expand the lead to conform to WP:LEAD before the GA review starts, as else it will quickfail. The lead needs to summarize the article, as is now it only gives an "in world" history of the languge. It needs to give a summary of the history of development and grammar as well. Also the structure is weird. The Syntax section should be with grammar and before vocabulary and it should be a lot more comprehensive. Also I think it needs to draw in more secondary sources.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:33, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Vocabulary

The table has a mistake: Quenya and English glosses are reversed. Also, the sources for these allegedly published words should be incorporated into the section for easy reference. Any neologisms should be discarded, like any derivatives of The Etymologies not specifically discussed by Tolkien himself. 91.152.231.113 (talk) 15:13, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Page protected

I've fully protected the page for a few days due to the edit war over these references. While internet sources can be reliable (i.e. the reason given for removing them doesn't quite make sense), is "The Encyclopedia of Arda" a reliable source? Looking at it myself, it looks like an unofficial, personal website that someone maintains purely for enjoyment. Swarm ^X11|11|11 17:52, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Apart from the normal fanpage this site uses primary and independent references [2]. And while it is not comprehensive and may contain occasional errors there are mostly correct and reliable assessments of the general Tolkien-related topics and characters. What makes it reliable is the fact that it is not a Wiki that gets edited all the time. Apart from that, WikiProject Middle-earth has listed the site as a standard source: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards.

In particular, the references that Laurifindil keeps removing state nothing else than the primary Tolkien source, i.e. that Sindarin was used as a standard language by the Noldor elves in exile. De728631 (talk) 21:40, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

See also Maunus' request for secondary sources in the #GA nom section above. Sourcing everything with primary sources is not always practical. De728631 (talk) 22:02, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Quenya/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jezhotwells (talk · contribs) 02:01, 9 November 2011 (UTC) I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.

Disambiguations:

Linkrot:

Checking against GA criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   As the page was in an edit war until it was protected a day ago, this has to be a quickfail. Jezhotwells (talk) 02:10, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   Quickfail due to edit war, please renominate when you have sorted out your problems. Jezhotwells (talk) 02:10, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hey!

Let's do a Wikipedia written in Quenya! --Sistemx (talk) 17:13, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Good luck with that. There are not even enough vocabularies to write the front page. De728631 (talk) 22:12, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

It's actually being done. See http://neo-quenya.wikia.com/wiki/Neo-Quenya_Wiki.

Datasheet

Is there a Quenyan Language Datasheet available? 68.151.17.107 (talk) 22:41, 10 March 2012 (UTC)