Talk:Afghanistan

To Jrkso: Stop cutting pieces of Afghan history out of the article

The Soviet War, Islamic State and Taliban Emirate periods are three very important parts of Afghan history. You cannot belittle them by simply putting them as one section. Also, the information given by the version you keep restoring is heavily misleading (to say the least). The episode of the "Democratic Republic and Saur Revolution" is not that important like the parts you keep erasing and they make a huge part of the history section. Operation Enduring Freedom has an own section. Yet you concentrate only on the Soviet War, Islamic State and Taliban Emirate. The question that springs to mind is, why is that? JCAla 6 September 2010 (UTC)

book

The central Asian Arabs of Afghanistan: pastoral nomadism in transition By Thomas Jefferson Barfield — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.204.45.116 (talk • contribs) 05:20, 19 January 2011

Etymology of Afghanistan

The real etymology of the word ‘Afghanistan’ is as follows. The country of Afghanistan was once a Hindu Kingdom and one of the 16 Mahajanapads,i.e.,princely states of the Bharathavarsha or BharathaKhanda which is today known simply as Bharat or India. During those historical times the people of the country Afghanistan were known to the other princely Kingdoms of the Bharat or India as Upaganas meaning the ‘sub-tribes’ in the then widespread official or the regal language Sanskrit. Naturally the place of the Upaganas were called as Upaganastana, again the suffix ‘stana’ in Sanskrit means ‘place’. The others in the western side of Upaganastana, especially Persians might have been referring to this land and its people as Uphghanstan and Uphghans, which later during the periods of the Islamic raids took the forms as ‘Afghanistan’ and ‘Afghans’ respectively. Its the same with the etymology of the name of the city ‘Khandahar’ whose root is ‘Gandhara’ which appears many times in the Hindu Mythology like Ramayana and Mahabharatha that dates back to 8th or 9th century BC which cannot be ignored. However, the precise history of all these seemingly obvious facts are hard to find as the Islamisation of the land would have destroyed most of the records of its pre-Islamic times, as is the case with the Islamic conquest of Persia. A thorough research on the subject to find the specific historical evidences is recommended. For further readings Afghan Hindu Association of America, Jihad against India,

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Edit request on 10 April 2012

Afghanistan is mentioned to be in the central of Asia forming Middle East, Central Asia and South Asia. From many sources such as tradtional fghan books, and a few pages on Wikipedia, Afghanistan is in the Middle East and sometimes Central Asia - South Asia is a mistake, maybe you meant Southwest Asia, here are a couple of pages from Wikipedia to prove it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Afghanistan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Currencies_of_Asia

Please change it, as I don't want Wikipedia to be based on biased opinions, it should be based on facts - Afghanistan is in Central-West Asia.

81.100.31.227 (talk) 10:39, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

The location of Afghanistan in the article is currently supported by multiple reliable sources. If you can provide reliable source(s) for your claim, it can be added here. The sources you provided are Wikipedia articles, not reliable source. --SMS ^Talk 11:32, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I checked the sources in the article; UN places Afghanistan in South Asia; Brittanica places it in south-central asia. So I've removed the reference to West Asia. But South Asia is supported at least by UN statistical encoding, which is as reasonable a source as any...--KarlB (talk) 01:42, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Here are some reliable sources: http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/data/topics/RetrieveProductTable.cfm?TPL=RETR&ALEVEL=3&APATH=3&CATNO=&DETAIL=0&DIM=&DS=99&FL=0&FREE=0&GAL=0&GC=99&GK=NA&GRP=1&IPS=&METH=0&ORDER=1&PID=92333&PTYPE=88971&RL=0&S=1&ShowAll=No&StartRow=1&SUB=801&Temporal=2006&Theme=80&VID=0&VNAMEE=&VNAMEF=

http://tr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dosya:LocationWestAsia.PNG&filetimestamp=20051103041337 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.213.251 (talk) 16:25, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 11 April 2012

Afghanistan is west-central asia

86.25.213.251 (talk) 16:04, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

 Not done: Duplicate request to below.   — Jess· Δ♥ 16:48, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

From experience and Afghan persepective Afghanistan is West Asian, regularly Central Asia, but hardly South Asia

I have found a source for you to add West Asia to Afghanistan again http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/data/topics/RetrieveProductTable.cfm?TPL=RETR&ALEVEL=3&APATH=3&CATNO=&DETAIL=0&DIM=&DS=99&FL=0&FREE=0&GAL=0&GC=99&GK=NA&GRP=1&IPS=&METH=0&ORDER=1&PID=92333&PTYPE=88971&RL=0&S=1&ShowAll=No&StartRow=1&SUB=801&Temporal=2006&Theme=80&VID=0&VNAMEE=&VNAMEF=

86.25.213.251 (talk) 16:10, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

 Not done: Duplicate request to below.   — Jess· Δ♥ 16:48, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Afghanistan is West Asia

Here is an actual source from Wikipedia: http://tr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dosya:LocationWestAsia.PNG&filetimestamp=20051103041337

86.25.213.251 (talk) 16:22, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I looked at the links above, they don't seem to work. In addition, wikipedia itself cannot be used as a source. You would need to find 3rd party, reliable sources that list Afghanistan as being part of 'West Asia' (which is unlikely, since I think 'West Asia' was a nomenclature mainly used by the United Nations, and they didn't put Afghanistan within. Here is the UN Geoscheme --KarlB (talk) 16:40, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. I'm also unable to open those links. If you can find some quality reliable sources that document your proposed change, feel free to reopen the requested edit template. Please only open one, however; opening three doesn't make it more likely your request will be processed faster. Thanks!   — Jess· Δ♥ 16:48, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 April 2012

Hi, I have 3rd party proof to show Afghanistan is West Asian: http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/data/topics/RetrieveProductTable.cfm?TPL=RETR&ALEVEL=3&APATH=3&CATNO=&DETAIL=0&DIM=&DS=99&FL=0&FREE=0&GAL=0&GC=99&GK=NA&GRP=1&IPS=&METH=0&ORDER=1&PID=92333&PTYPE=88971&RL=0&S=1&ShowAll=No&StartRow=1&SUB=801&Temporal=2006&Theme=80&VID=0&VNAMEE=&VNAMEF=

This is a Canadian Census which puts Afghan national under West Asian, and not Central or South Asian

Also, the offical language is: Persian, and the University of Edinburgh highlight the fact that Persian is the 3rd most popular language in the Middle East (West Asia)

Please add Afghanistan being West Asian, thanks.

81.100.27.117 (talk) 15:54, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

 Not done: See below. Celestra (talk) 21:02, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 April 2012

Afghanistan is Middle Eastern, the 3rd party source I have found are:

[[1]] - this source shows that Afghanistan has been placed on the Middle East/West Asia colum, if you look on the left hand page

[[2]] - this source shows that Afghanistan has been placed under West Asia alongside its neighoubrs, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, etc.

[[3]] - this source as you can clearly see than in 2006, "Afghanistan are runners-up to Bahrain in the Middle East Cup.""

Please add Afghanistan to being Middle Eastern too, I understand that this topic is severly contrevsersial, so Afghaistan can be identified as West-Central Asian. Thank you, please add Afghanistan as West Asian/Middle Eastern

AA193 (talk) 09:48, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. This is clearly not a change supported by consensus, so it is inappropriate for being added using the template. If you can reach a consensus for change with the other editors, one of them can implement the change. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 21:01, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 April 2012

81.100.27.117 (talk) 22:13, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

 Not done See above. --joe decker^{talk to me} 13:44, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 16 April 2012

Afghanistan is Middle Eastern, the 3rd party source I have found are:

[[4]] - this source shows that Afghanistan has been placed on the Middle East/West Asia colum, if you look on the left hand page

[[5]] - this source shows that Afghanistan has been placed under West Asia alongside its neighoubrs, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, etc.

[[6]] - this source as you can clearly see than in 2006, "Afghanistan are runners-up to Bahrain in the Middle East Cup.""

[[7]] - this is the Canadian Cenusus that provides information showing that Afghanistan is West Asian, under the sub-heading 'Questions', it highlights "West Asian (e.g., Iranian, Afghan, etc.)", this shows that some evidence does prove of Afghanistan being West Asian

Please add Afghanistan to being Middle Eastern/West Asian. Wikipedia cuurently says "..is a landlocked sovereign state located in the centre of Asia, forming part of South Asia and Central Asia." I want it to be changed into "is a landlocked sovereign state located in the centre of Asia, forming part of the Middle East and Central Asia." As evidence here proves that Wikipedia have left this out. Thank you for understanding

AA193 (talk) 16:08, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 17:11, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Afghanistan in the Middle East

Before we start making requested edits, I think we should have a discussion here. What is the standard we apply for listing a country in a specific geographical region? What is the criteria for being part of the 'Middle east'? For example, here Middle east it is listed as being part of 'Greater middle east'. I looked at several of the other articles in 'greater middle east' and none of them I looked at listed the country in question as being part of the middle east. It seems there are conflicting sources. I don't think we should remove the 'South Asia' listing, because that is well backed up by the UN which is a significant source. I also feel that the crafts council and cricket listings are not that relevant; whether Canada and New Zealand statistics office categorization places them there is meaningful is up for debate. I think the key question is, in the broader context, when people talk about 'the middle east', is Afghanistan often understood to form part of that? The AP style guide may be useful here. In any case, let's not talk about 'proving' things here, because this is not a scientific experiment.--KarlB (talk) 16:47, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

comment some older discussions on this topic here and here. --KarlB (talk) 18:29, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with AA193's view. First, we must list Pakistan first because that country shares the longest border with Afghanistan, not to mention trade links and many other stuff, and then Iran and the rest. This is clockwise, appropriate and less confusing. Any other way is stupid. Secondly, Afghanistan as a territory is not officially part of the Middle East because no reliable source mentions this, and "Middle East" is not a territorial term but culutral. If Afghanistan becomes part of NATO, it doesn't make it part of Europe.--TAzimi (talk) 12:54, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I have reverted another change by AA193 which placed Afghanistan in Western Asia; unfortunately, this is not backed up by references. The change also suggests that Afghanistan uses a different timezone in the summer. According to this, that is not true: [8] however it's certainly possible that this site is wrong. Does anyone have an authoritative source on this? --KarlB (talk) 18:10, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

AA193 made another edit, which resulted in a block (however his change was not yet removed). What do eds think of 'greater middle east' - Afghanistan does seem to be part of that entity, but it also seems like a made up american designation - it has a wikipedia article, but I'm not sure if it's notable enough to classify Afghanistan in this way. Any thoughts? Also any responses to the question about timezones in the summer appreciated. --KarlB (talk) 01:11, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Pls add the footnote

The Government of India regards Afghanistan as a bordering country, as it considers all of Kashmir to be part of India. However, this is disputed, and the region bordering Afghanistan is administered by Pakistan. Source: "Ministry of Home Affairs (Department of Border Management)" (DOC). Retrieved 1 September 2008..

 Not done This article is about Afghanistan, not India, thus their claims cannot be included here as per WP:NPOV. Mar4d (talk) 14:54, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

You aren't a neutral person. Maybe non Biased people on this web site can make up their own view — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.212.88.26 (talk) 16:21, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, I am just echoing the official stance and majority position which is that the Government of Afghanistan does not claim or regard India as a bordering country, and that is the only WP:POV that matters as far as this article is concerned. Neither does the international community acknowledge India as a bordering country for that matter, or the United States (India does not have a common border with Afghanistan: US). Wikipedia gives preference to majority views over minority views, thus this footnote wouldn't survive here. Let's start with the fact that the Indian portion of Kashmir itself is internationally disputed territory. This footnote is best left out of here and discussed on the Kashmir conflict article. But I'll let you have second opinion from someone else. Mar4d (talk) 16:36, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Ok thanks for openness in controversial stuff. I feel it important to express all issues you see.Btw where does it say Afghanistan doesn't see India as border country.?. I looked for statement on google but cannot find it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.212.88.26 (talk) 16:42, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps I can ask you the reverse. Which country does recognise the boundary? Not just Afghanistan, but the entire world doesn't recognize a physical border existing between Afghanistan and India. Perhaps that clarifies the official majority position better. Mar4d (talk) 16:51, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Countries of the world are neutral in the respect. Most nations' maps will show land is disputed territory. (http://map.soso.com/) However absence of the statement does not mean the official unrecognition.!. Let us postpone discussion until anyone else comes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.212.88.26 (talk) 17:17, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Map of J&K state does touch Afghanistan. sources: [| gov.in website mentioning common border], per UN Cartographic Section, Map of Afghanistan [| link], per google map [| link]इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 21:10, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Comment on just that last Google Maps link: It is Google Maps in India and curiously unlike the way Google Maps shows the situation in other countries (eg, [9], "disputed"). Perhaps this is because it is, if I understand right, illegal to show the border as disputed in India? Pfly (talk) 02:09, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

It is clear that Pakistan borders on Afghanistan. Whether India does or not is a matter up for dispute (e.g., who controls J&K), so it's best left out of the article for now. Placing it in Kashmir conflict seems reasonable. --KarlB (talk) 02:21, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

• It's incorrect to say that the POV of the Afghan government matters. Neither does the footnote break NPOV, it seems neutrally written. However, whether it is notable enough for inclusion in this article is up to debate. India has never controlled the territory bordering Kashmir, so any Afghan-Indian border has never had any practical application or effect. Unless a case is made demonstrating its importance, I think it's best to leave it out as trivia. And I'm also fascinated by the Google map, I hope there's a story behind that somewhere. CMD (talk) 11:10, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
• I remember, this was in the article a long time ago. Someone (possibly the infamous NP) removed it; I briefly remember reinstating it. Who removed it this time is another question. --Rvd4life (talk) 14:23, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Whoever inserted it, they did it without consensus, so I support the wise person who removed it. Mar4d (talk) 14:26, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I can't think of many people here who would call NP 'wise'! You might just be the first ;) --Rvd4life (talk) 15:02, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 8 May 2012

some of this thungs are wronfg my oen is hug

205.202.34.34 (talk) 20:06, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Hello and welcome! Kindly specify what is wrong, so an editor can address your concern. As of this edit request I am marking it as answered, when you come again with a specific mistake add a new request or replace yes with no in the answered= field. Thanks --SMS ^Talk 20:39, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Abdali invasions into india/punjab are grossly mis-represented and incorrect in the article

First of all Sikhs are a separate people from the Marathas

All his invasions were not victories as wrongly stated in the article. Below are the facts.

The Fifth Invasion and Encounter with the Marathas Ahmad Shah Abdali’s first four attacks were devoted to annihilating the Mughal power in the northern India. In his fifth invasion he had to face the Marathas in the third Battle of Panipat. When Ahmad Shah Abdali annexed Sirhind, Punjab, Multan, Sindh and Kashmir, Adeena Beg the faujdar of Jalandhar invited Marathas from Delhi. He invited the Sikhs to conquer Sirhind, because he knew that the Sikhs were ever-ready to invade Sirhind and owing to the martyrdom of the younger Sahibzadas having taken place there called it “Gru damned Sirhind” (Guru Mari Sirhind). This way, the Sikhs and the Marhattas captured Sirhind and the later on they overran Lahore. The Abdali rule in the Punjab thus came to an end. The Marathas had their sway upto Attok and they appointed Adeena Beg the governor of the Punjab. Ahmad Shah Abdali could not tolerate the seizing of the territory in the Punjab by Marathas and, therefore, he again invaded India with a fuller force. This was the fifth invasion by him. The Marathas also marched northwards from Deccan fully prepared. Abdali was commanding less troops, but by means of daring and superior military strategy, he carried the day against the Marathas who fell in the Battle of Panipat. Now, Abdali had one power in view, which he wanted to crush and it was the Sikhs.

Sixth Invasion the Massive Massacre of the Sikhs – Wada Ghullughara – 1762 The destroyer of the Mughal rule and the conqueror of the Marathas considered the Sikhs to be insignificant. The Sikhs had been affended by Afghans as they had destroyed Darbar Sahib, Amritsar. When Ahmad Shah Abdali’s son, Tamur Shah, and his general, Jahan Khan were returning to Kabul after ransacking Delhi, along with a lot of booty, the Sikh bands raided them seized a good quantity of plundered goods and chased the Durrani forces over a sufficient distance. It happened that in March 1757. Thereafter to wreak vengeance on the Sikhs, the Afghans attacked the town of Kartarpur (near Jalandhar) founded by Guru Arjun Sahib and set ablaze the Gurdwara Tham Sahib. On his way back from Delhi Abdali halted at Lahore where from he sent his troops to Amritsar and desecrated Sri Darbar Sahib.17 When Ahmad Shah Abdali was returning after his victory over Delhi, the Sikh bands attacked him near Goindwal and liberated about 2200 Hindu women from the clutches of the Afghans. The Sikhs bands pursued the Afghan forces upto the river Attock.18 In 1761 A.D. Ahmad Shah Abdali before leaving Lahore appointed Khwaja Ubaid the governor of Lahore and Khwaja Mirza Jaan the faujdar of Char Mahal (These char Mahals were Sialkot, Pasroor, Gujarat and Aurangabad). Mirza Jaan was killed while fighting the Sikhs, and thereafter Ahmad Shah sent Nooruddin to establish law and order in the Punjab. He was defeated by Charat Singh Shukarchakhia and he retired to Sialkot. Hearing this, Khwaja Ubaid who was the governor of Lahore gathered a large force and attacked Gujranwala, the capital city of the Shukarchakkia Misl. Charat Singh called upon the other Misaldars including Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, Jai Singh Ghanayya and Hari Singh Bhangi to come to his aid. The assembled Sikhs put Khwaja Ubaid to flight and he fled to shelter inside the Lahore fort. The Sikh chiefs pursued him and conquerred Lahore. Jassa Singh Ahluwalia made Saadat Khan faujdar flee. This way the Sikhs carried the day everywhere. The Sikhs decided to set right Aaqil Das Niranjania of Jandiala as he had been spying upon the Sikhs and reporting to Abdali. When Niranjani came to know of it he called Ahmed Shah Abdali to his support. Zain Khan the governor of Sirhind appointed by Abdali in Cis-Sutlej area was ill-at-ease on account of the Sikhs. He also persuaded Ahmad Shah to invade the Punjab to mend the Sikhs.19

Ahmed Shah Abdali made several invasions to occupy and annexe Punjab to Kabul kingdom. On every occasion he was harassed by the Sikh bands. The Sikh warriors bands, called Missal, began to occupy territory at various places. They conquered Lahore in 1765 and struck coin in the name of the Gurus. The Inscription of the coin was the same as that issued by Banda Singh Bahadur, viz Dego Tego Nusrat bedrang – Yaft as Nanak Guru Gobind Singh. The kettle and the sword (symbols of charity and power) victory and ready patronage have been obtained from Guru Nanak – Gobind Singh. The same inscription continued uptill 1849 when the Punjab was annexed. Most of the Punjab was occupied by the Sikh Misaldars. Ahmad Shah Abdali, the best horseman of his times in Asia, conqueror of Delhi, the age old capital of the Mughals, the victor of the Battle of Panipat where he gave crushing defeat to Marathas felt exhansted before the valiant Khalsa. He left Punjab and died in 1769 AD.

Writings about the Sikhs by a muslim:

A Tribute by Qazi Nur Mohammed Qazi Nur Mohammad son of Qazi Abdullah belonged to village Gunjaba in Baluchistan). He was with Nasir Khan of Kalat when the latter joined Ahmed Shah Abdali in his jehad against the Sikhs. Qazi Nur Mohammad has written the account of seventh invasion, of Ahmad Shah Adbali. Out of contempt for the Sikhs he calls them sag which is Persian means dog. dog of hell, pig eaters, accursed infidels, etc. But he has paid the highest tribute to the character of Sikhs of eighteenth century. A bigoted writer who has got strong prejudice against Sikhs paying such glowing tribute to their character, is a matter of pride for the Sikhs. he writes : Leaving aside their mode of fighting hear you another point in which they excel other fighting people. In no case they would slay a coward or put any obstacle in way of fugitive They do not plunder the wealth and ornament of women be she be a well to do lady or maid servant. There is no adultery among the dogs nor are these mischievous people given the thieving. Whether a woman young or old they call her 'budhya' an old lady and ask her to get out of the way. The word ' Buddya' in Indian lauguage means an old lady. There is no thief at all among these dogs nor is there any house breaker born amongst these miscreants. Because they do not make friend with adulterers and house breakers.32

The end result of Abdalis defeat and history onwards:

Subjugation of Afghan Turbulent Tribes of North Western Frontier The rule of Maharaja Ranjit Singh (1799-1839) will ever remain watershed in the annals of the trans-Indus regions especially Peshawar, Bannu as well as Hazara. All these areas alongwith Kashmir were a part of the Afghanistan. Olaf Caroe writes, "Ranjit Singh had wrested from Afghan their fairest provinces not only those east of Indus where Kabul rulers could claim no recial affinity, but Peshawar itself and Bannu, fertile gardens inhabited by proud people of Afghan and Pathan stock"33. Maharaja Ranjit singh undertook strong measures to subdue and control the ferocious tribes of north western frontier. These tribes had not ever been subjugated and brought under control as Attock District gazetteer, writes, "The Mughal sway was more nominal than real. They appear to have been content to levy revenue and there is nothing to show that any serious government was attempted. The whole district paid only half of a lakh of rupees and heads of each tribe were practically independent."34 After the conquest of Afghan principalities Kasur, Kashmir and Multan he led his legions across the Indus. This was a big challenge to the valiant Afghans who raised a cry of Jehad under Azim Khan ruler of Kabul. A big army was collected on the bank of river at Naushehra. (Distt Peshawar). Ranjit Singh won the decisive victory and surging crowds of Ghazis was dispersed in 1823 AD. Azim Khan died of the shock.35 After this decisive battle army of Ranjit Singh conquered Peshawar and its surrounding areas. Peshawar was annexed to Sikh kingdom in 1834 and Hari Singh Nalwa who has been described as an ideal Sikh soldier" by Olaf Caroe36 was appointed as its Governor. All these trans-Indus areas were never under any regular administration as it has been rightly stated by Olaf Caroe territorial link of administration has to be traced to its beginnings in the Sikh occupation of Peshawar."37 Maharaja Ranjit Singh and his general Hari Singh Nalwa dealt with the north western frontier tribes in two phases dividing it into two sectors viz(i) Hazara sector and (ii) Peshawar sector.