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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 109.99.71.97 (talk) at 14:47, 8 September 2012 (→Forest: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Etymology of Siebenbuergen

As far as I know, the meaning of "Siebenbürgen" is not exactly known. It is suspected, that it might stem from the seven chairs.

TakWah (talk) 13:45, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction Section

Most of the good information in the "introduction section" is covered in the "Origin of the Romanians" and "History of Transylvania" pages. This has to be trimmed down. Very little has citations. In the end, it does no good for Transylvania's current residents to do this. The controversies about historic ethnic dominance of the region can go on, just move them elsewhere. The introduction section of this page shouldn't be a forum for this kind of discussion. It should prepare the reader for learning about Transylvania, an interesting, beautiful place that has been inhabited by people for a long long time and like all such places it has a rich history of inter-ethnic cooperation and conflict. It has mountains, forests, engangered species, special crops, dances, rivers, old cities, and cultural relics from pre-historic, roman-era, medeival, and renaissance times. Many of its people practice a simple way of life with a high level of civlization, but a low environmental impact. Native wild vegetation includes fruits and nuts that are now enjoyed worldwide. The dairy products are superb especially when the milk comes from the local bivolitas. Its people practice a variety of religions and speak a variety of languages. It is a peaceful place with good healthcare, people like living here. It is a place with a large number of skilled workers who speak English ... get the picture? My question is why does the page have to start with ethnic conflict? If the people on all sides of the conflict really value what they are fighting for, the land, then why can't they talk about how nice it is there instead of who was there first? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Samueldee (talk • contribs) 23:04, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

yeah, this article is continually swamped by ethnic bickering over the "Origin of Romanians" thing. Both Romanians and Hungarians are to blame for this. I really cannot understand why people so eager to cover one topic will insist on going on about it on a completely different article instead of the one dedicated to it. History of Romania is a standalone article. The "History" section should be the briefest summary of that, one page max. That's not even beginning to mention "Origin of Romanians" which is completely marginal here and should probably not even be mentioned, or at the extreme maximum in one brief sentence. --dab (𒁳) 08:39, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 29 December 2011

please correct the link to my page "Historical Literature about Transylvania and Neighbouring Territories" to:

http://www.zinnenwarte.de/Transylvania/Index.htm

on

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvania

Thank you,

Kpopa (talk) 08:22, 29 December 2011 (UTC) Klaus Popa, Germany Kpopa (talk) 08:22, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kpopa (talk) 08:22, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: The url you provided returns a 404 error. Rivertorch (talk) 08:47, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Copy editing and tags

I added tags and the request for copy editing because of the following issues with the history section:

Hopefully the article will get on the WP:GOCE queue eventually and will get cleaned up by the experts. --Codrin.B (talk) 14:42, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have done some basic copy editing throughout and removed the ce tag. I did not find the article confusing - just too long - and think this tag could be removed too. It seems to me that the introduction to the history section is sufficient for this article. The details are available elsewhere starting with History of Transylvania (which itself could perhaps now benefit from some of the edited sections of this article). Removing the other history sections would reduce the present size of the article substantially and leave room for expansion of the remaining sections or for new ones to be added. There is little on culture (art, literature, architecture, cuisine), politics, sports) and on the relationship with the rest of Romania. I don't think the article deserves a B at this stage. - Ipigott (talk) 11:31, 30 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 21 June 2012

Dear Author(s),

The first written document about Walchs is from the 13th century. Better to write it into the article not to misslead people, that the area was "for sure" inhabited by Walchs". Otherwise i will correct it.

Thanks

89.135.67.210 (talk) 11:38, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. AndieM (Am I behaving?) 13:08, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Conquest of Transylvania and integration into the Kingdom of Hungary

The presence of Romanians in Transylvania before the arrival of the Magyar tribes is mentioned in the Hungarian chronicle Gesta Hungarorum. According to this document, Transylvania was inhabited by Romanians/Vlachs and Slavs at the time of the Magyar conquest and was ruled by the Vlach prince Gelou. After Gelou was killed by the Hungarians in a battle near the River Someş, his subjects elected Tuhutum as their prince.[1]

Some historians consider the Gesta Hungarorum an unreliable source.[2] For example the author thought Kende had been the father of Kurszán.[3] In fact "kende" was a title of a Hungarian dignitary, probably the sacral ruler.[3] It is also worth mentioning that the Gesta was written about 300 years after the Hungarians entered Transylvania. The author of Gesta also talks about Cuman people at the time of the arrival of the Hungarians in Transylvania, though their first appearance in the ancient homeland of the Hungarians (between the Lower Danube and the Don) is dated to the eleventh century.[4]

The account of the Gesta Hungarorum is however repeated by Simon of Kéza who writes that the Vlachs remained after Attila left in Pannonia and Transylvania,[5] and also that the Székely were settled "among the Vlachs" (sed cum Blakis) in the mountains.[6] These words are repeated in the Chronicon Dubnicense, Chronicon Posoniense[7] Anna Komnenos also mentions "Dacians" (Vlachs) North of the Danube in her Alexiad.[8] Likewise, John Kinnamos writes in 1176 on the expedition of emperor Vatzates that there were Vlachs North of the Danube and that "it is said they are colonists arrived long ago from Italy."[9] These statements are repeated by all humanist authors like Antonio Bonfini[10] or Filip Callimachus[11] who state the Vlachs were descendants of the Roman colonists in Transylvania. With the exception of István Szamosközy, it was not until the late 18th century that any historian cast doubt on the continuity of the Romanians in Dacia.[12]


The Library of Congress in its country study about Romania: "Romanians descend from the Dacians, an ancient people who fell under Rome's dominance in the first century A.D., intermarried with Roman colonists, and adopted elements of Roman culture, including a Vulgar Latin that evolved into today's Romanian."[13]. However, according to the same source, when the Magyars arrived in the Pannonian Basin (896 ad), they met local population: "A century later their king, Stephen I, integrated Transylvania into his Hungarian kingdom. The Hungarians constructed fortresses, founded a Roman Catholic bishopric, and began proselytizing Transylvania's indigenous people. There is little doubt that these included some Romanians who remained faithful to the Eastern Orthodox Church after the East-West Schism."[14] Though, the US Library of Congress in its country study about Hungary simply points out that "Romanian and Hungarian historians disagree about the ethnicity of Transylvania's population before the Magyars' arrival [...]The Romanians assert that their Latin ancestors inhabited Transylvania and survived there through the Dark Ages [...] The Hungarians maintain that, when Hungarians conquered it in the 11th century, Transylvania was inhabited not by the ancestors of the Romanians but by Slavs".[15]

These facts have fueled a centuries-long feud between Romanian and Hungarian historians over Transylvania.[14]

The Romanian historians assert that their ancestors remained in Transylvania after Rome's exodus and that Romanians constitute the region's aboriginal inhabitants.[13]

Hungarians assert, among other things, that the Roman population quit Dacia completely in 271, that the Romans could not have made a lasting impression on Transylvania's aboriginal population in only two centuries,[14] and that Transylvania's Romanians descended from Balkan nomads who crossed northward over the Danube in the thirteenth century and flowed into Transylvania in any significant numbers only after Hungary opened its borders to foreigners.[14] The Hungarians maintain that Transylvania was inhabited not by the ancestors of the Romanians but by Slavs and point out that the first mention of the Romanians' ancestors in Hungarian records, which appeared in the thirteenth century, described them as drifting herders.[15]

References

  1. ^ Pál Engel, Tamás Pálosfalvi, Andrew Ayton (2005). "The Last Arpadians". The Realm of St Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary, 895-1526. Central European University Press. p. 117. ISBN 9639116971. Retrieved 2008-11-28.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  2. ^ Magocsi, Paul Robert (1978). The Shaping of a National Identity: Subcarpathian Rus', 1848-1948. Harvard University Press. p. 107. ISBN 0-674-80579-8. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
  3. ^ a b Kézai Simon (1999). Gesta Hungarorum. Central European University Press. p. 84. ISBN 9639116319. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  4. ^ Engel, Pál (2005). The Realm of St Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary, 895-1526. I.B.Tauris. p. 90. ISBN 185043977X. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  5. ^ Ioan-Aurel Pop (1996). Romanians and Hungarians from the 9th to the 14th Century: The Genesis of the Transylvanian Medieval State. Cluj-Napoca: Centrul de Studii Transilvane. ISBN 973-577-037-7.
  6. ^ Elemér, Illyés (1992). Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area. Hunyadi OCS. p. 90. ISBN 0880331461. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
  7. ^ Armbruster, Adolf. Romanitatea Romanilor, Chapter 2.2
  8. ^ Komnenos, Anna. Alexiad. Book III. Pp. 87-88.
  9. ^ loannes Cinnamus, Epitome rerum ab Ioanne et Alexio Comnenis gestarum, VI, ed. Bonn. p. 260 Latin: Qui Italorum coloni quondam fuisse perhibentur
  10. ^ A. Bonfinius, Rerum Ungaricarum decades qvatvor cvm dimidia, Basileae, 1568. II, lib. 7, ed. cit., p. 304-305
  11. ^ Ph. Callimachus, Vita et mores Sbignei cardinalis, ed. Irmina Lichonska, Varsoviae, 1962, p. 26
  12. ^ Georgescu, Vlad (1992). The Romanians: A History. Ohio State University Press. p. 318. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
  13. ^ a b A Country Study: Romania. Federal Research Division, Library of Congress.
  14. ^ a b c d "The Magyars' Arrival in Transylvania". A Country Study: Romania. Federal Research Division, Library of Congress. Retrieved 2008-12-01.
  15. ^ a b "Early history". A Country Study: Hungary. Federal Research Division, Library of Congress. Retrieved 2008-12-02.

Forest

Beyond which forest? 109.99.71.97 (talk) 14:47, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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