Talk:Passover

Matzah

Matzah is called "Shmurah Matzah" whether machine made or hand made. Only 18 minutes are allowed, not 22. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.61.36 (talk) 01:06, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Terminology

There is a confusion of terms where the words Matzah and Matzo are used interchangeably in the same paragraph. Those who are not familiar with the different transliterations of the word may find this confusing. I suggest that a single transliteration is used throughout the article. 170.194.32.58 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:48, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Samaritan Note

Someone has vandalised the note section in regard to Samaritan practice on the day preceding Erev Pessach. Samaritans still perform the traditional sacrifice of lambs, not cows! 69.181.62.103 (talk) 08:36, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Messianic Judaism vs Hebrew Christianity

Messianic Judaism is not the same thing has Hebrew Christianity. Please do not continue to make this change. It is not your's to decide whether Messianic Jews (who consider themselves to be Jews) are actually Jews or not. Nor is it appropriate for you to confuse terms when there is a clear distinction. ReformedArsenal (talk) 19:21, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

"passing over" vs. "hovering"

The argument that the meaning of psh may not be "to pass over; skip, omit" but "to hover, guarding" is interesting, I can see there is a lengthy theological debate in it as well, regarding the nature of monotheism, i.e. was God conceived as identical with the destroying angel (sort of like God hiding the righteous under his throne to spare them from his wrath), or did he send the destroying angel as a sort of subordinate agent, whom he then had to keep from messing up by turning him away from the houses he wanted him to skip. The early YHWH seems to be able to split himself into several personages, much like his visit to Abraham in the form of three men, so I am sure a lot of interesting stuff about the early history of monotheism could be attached to this discussion.

But, in spite of the argument being presented here with biblical citations for reference, it is not attributed to anybody, so we don't know if it is original research. I am confident that this argument exists and could be dug from the Talmud or something, but at the moment the reference is lacking. According to Strong, the root simply means "to jump, skip, limp, be lame", nothing about hovering or guarding, so the burden of providing evidence that the verb may have another sense based on usage in Isaiah has not been met in the current revision. --dab (𒁳) 15:32, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Passover start date

All you have to do is look at a Jewish Calendar (a real one, not a Gregorian overlay) to know that Passover starts at sunset on 15 Nisan. Some Christian denominations, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, observe their equivalent of Passover on 14 Nisan, but the Jewish Passover is now and has always been 15 Nisan.

Reminder: The Jewish day is sunset to sunset, not sunrise to sunrise or midnight to midnight. What most of the world calls Friday evening is Saturday evening on the Jewish Calendar; what most of the world calls Friday night is Saturday night; Saturday morning and Saturday afternoon are the same; and then what the rest of the world calls Saturday evening and Saturday night, are Sunday evening and Sunday night on the Jewish calendar.

I have recently removed some in-article discussion regarding the date of the start of Passover. It has been noted as both the 14th and 15th of Nisan. Clarification by those with more knowledge is needed.

Kaygrub (talk) 12:17, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Knew to pass over?

The intro says that God only knew to pass over houses upon seeing the blood but the reference doesn't support that. Seems like it should be rephrased. Minor issue I know. 114.35.25.165 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:13, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Inconsistent start date

The article text says Passover starts on 14 Nisan, but the sidebar says 15 Nisan. I see above there was previously discussion in the article on which date was correct. Perhaps we need to have it back in? As of now it's clearly inconsistent and there's no explanation of which is correct. Talu42 (talk) 19:11, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

absolutely no evidence for any part of this bible story

I can not believe that there isn't some, even basic, section discussing the lack of historical evidence, or a discussion of the fact that the bible stories were written down well over 2000 years after it purportedly happened.

I'm not here to criticize the religious aspects, but it is certainly absurd to have no discussion at all of the lack of any evidence whatsoever. In truth, the Egyptian record is absolutely silent, as are generations of Jewish, Latin, Greek, and other writers.

Religious folks should not be hijacking articles in order to promote in-myth versions of events alone. It's one thing to describe a holiday's significance, quite another to treat bible stories as historical fact - it's amateurish at best, don't you agree?

http://www.history.com/topics/passover

And e.g.:

"The two primary books of the Old Testament – Genesis and Exodus – refer to 'Pharaoh' 155 times. Curiously, not once in either book is Pharaoh identified by name – and yet, in fact, the references are to many different pharaohs, across many centuries. The anomaly is all the more telling in that the holy books are not lacking in naming numerous sundry and incidental characters. For example, the grandmother, of the grandmother, of King Asa of Judah was Abishalom, should you be interested! (1 Kings 15.10). But this style of literature should be familiar to us all: "Once upon a time, in a land far away, was a bad king. And in the forest, David played ... "

It's called a Fairy Tale.

....Despite the omission of pharaonic names in Genesis, Exodus and most other biblical books, in a few places pharaohs are indeed named. This should have made it possible to synchronize the real history of Egypt with some part of the purported "history" of the Jews recorded in the Bible.

Unfortunately there is a small problem: the Bible's 'Pharaohs' are unknown in all of the vast corpus of Egyptian history.

Thus, 1 Kings (11.40) introduces the character "Shishak"; 2 Kings (17.4) brings on "So" ; and Jeremiah (44.30) gives us "Hophra." The anomaly has given rise to 200 years of "name that pharaoh." With many centuries, 30-odd dynasties, and dozens of monarchs to choose from the possibilities are endless.

Jeroboam's "refuge" in Egypt: Pharaoh 'Shishak' delivers God's punishment on Judah (1000 - 800 BC)

In the last days of Solomon, a labourer, promoted to overseer, called Jeroboam "lifts up his hand" against the monarch and has to flee to Egypt and the protection of Shishak (who of course has an open-house for renegade Jewish labourers) (1 Kings 11). Solomon dies, Jeroboam becomes king of 10 northern tribes (what a star!) and Solomon's legitimate heir Rehoboam is left with just 2 tribes in the south. Jeroboam's accommodating monarch Shishak plunders the Temple in Jerusalem, controlled by his rival, and conquers the whole of Judah. We never hear of Shishak again.

Nothing is known in Egypt of 'Shishak' but inscriptions of Pharaoh Shoshenk I (22nd dynasty) record his attack upon Jerusalem – so Shoshenk has traditionally been identified as the biblical 'Shishak.'

Hoshea of Samaria challenges the King of Assyria: "Pharaoh So" to the rescue (800 -700 BC)

       "And the king of Assyria found conspiracy in Hoshea: for he had sent messengers to So king of Egypt, and brought no present to the king of Assyria, as he had done year by year: therefore the king of Assyria shut him up, and bound him in prison." – 2 Kings 17.4.

An obvious candidate for So is Shoshenk – but he's already identified with Shishak! Thutmose III has a temple relief showing conquered cities of Judaea – perhaps we should make Thutmose 'Shishak' so that 'So' can be Shoshenk?!

Egyptian civil war written into the story: Pharaoh 'Hophra' gets on the wrong side of the Lord

       "Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will give Pharaoh Hophra king of Egypt into the hand of his enemies, and into the hand of them that seek his life; as I gave Zedekiah king of Judah into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, his enemy, and that sought his life." – Jeremiah 44.30.

With the 'clue' of Nebuchadnezzar (605 - 561 BC) and an obvious fate, chief suspect is the grandson of Pharaoh Neckau who reigned from 589 to 570 BC. This pharaoh died in a rebellion led by his general and son-in-law Ahmose. Unfortunately, this pharaoh is actually called Apries (Herodotus ii.169) and on his monuments as Uah`ab`ra (Wahibre). Perhaps the Pharaoh used the name 'Hophra' when he sent letters to the Jews ...?!

The biblical author was using the literary device of a royal murder to put an instructive 'prophecy' into the mouth of 'Jeremiah.' His oracle of woe was directed at recalcitrant Jews, many of whom lived in Egypt and were susceptible to Egyptian religious practices."

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/egypt.htm http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/chosen-people.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.136.54.23 (talk) 21:44, 25 March 2013 (UTC)