Talk:Bitch (slang)

Removed from article:

[ this is not true at all! "to bitch" comes from an old french world, "beech" or somethign of the sort.. no, i have no sources and don't care to find them, but I'm sure if you cared enough to write this entry, you'll care enough to find and post the truth yourself ]

What is not true? What did you remove from the article? What is this?

From Trivia

In the section Trivia, the following appeared:

Bitch is also the name of a Roald Dahl short story, featured in Switch Bitch. this is mostly refered to woman even though it is not defined as the human species.

I have removed the bolded section and moved it all here. I assume this line means something like "Dahl used this term literally only in reference to animals, but some critics believe he was making a statement about women." I have, however, not read the story, and don't know if this is true or not. But even if it is true, is this even needed in the article? I don't think that it is.

richdiesal 4 July 2005 06:11 (UTC)

Missing from Modern Use

The use of 'bitch' in the last chapter (not counting the epilogue) of the Harry Potter series has not been included in this article. As far as I'm aware this use has been hardly noticed or contested despite the fact that the series is written primarily for children. As an additional personal opinion I don't thnk 'bitch' is quite as profane as some other words and is perfectly acceptable in many contexts within popular culture. Non-user 2 June 2011 10:37 (UTC)

Son of a bitch - euphemism?

I can't remember where, but somewhere I read that the expression "son of a bitch" was originally a euphemism or minced oath. The original insult was to call a man a "cur", meaning what we would now call a "mutt": a mongrel dog. The word "cur" was highly offensive, whereas "bitch" was simply the neutral word for a female dog (compare "mare" or "ewe", neither of which is offensive). Since the mother of a cur is necessarily a bitch, to refer to the man as "son of a bitch" was to imply that he was a cur, without actually using the word "cur".

I noticed that the link to "son of a bitch" is redirecting the user to "Bitch", thus forming a circular reference. Can we fix that?  Done

Typo?

"The term can also connote ownership of a woman, such as in the phrase "my bitch", therefore reinforcing cultural norms of the word as negative, especially towards the feminine. This is similar to previous feminist attempts to identify it as an epithet for a strong, self-reliant woman."

I think "similar" is supposed to be "opposite"....?

rating on quality scale

I bumped the rating from C to B. Discuss if you wish... Noloop (talk) 03:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:42, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

---

Bitch → Bitch (slang) Bitch (insult) — Relisting. Consensus is present to move the dab page to the main name space. What is missing is consensus for a name for the current article. If no consensus is reached then the closing admin may need to decide. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:38, 22 October 2010 (UTC) and then redirect this page (bitch) to dog with a wp:hatnote to bitch (disambiguation) . PBS (talk) 09:42, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

The primary meaning of bitch is a female dog. The insult is a derivation of that: The Oxford English Dictionary gives the meanings as: "Bitich n.¹"

• 1. a. The female of the dog.
• 1 b. The female of the fox, wolf, and occasionally of other beasts; usually in combination with the name of the species. (Also as in sense 2.)
• 2. a. Applied opprobriously to a woman; strictly, a lewd or sensual woman. Not now in decent use; but formerly common in literature. In mod. use, esp. a malicious or treacherous woman; of things: something outstandingly difficult or unpleasant.
• 2 b. Applied to a man (less opprobrious, and somewhat whimsical, having the modern sense of ‘dog’). Not now in decent use.
• 2 c. A primitive form of lamp used in Alaska and Canada.
• 3. Comb. and attrib., as (sense 1) bitch-puppy, -whelp; (sense 2) bitch-baby, -clout, -daughter, -hunter, -son; {dag}bitch-daughter (obs.), the nightmare; bitch-fou a. (Sc.), as drunk and sick as a bitch, ‘beastly’ drunk; bitch-goddess, in William James's phr. (see quot. 1906); cf.

Bitch, n.² 1747 HOOSON Miner's Dict. s.v. Boring, For drawing up the Rods, we have, to hold them, an Iron Instrument called a Bitch, and, for unscrewing them, two more we call Dogs. 1881 RAYMOND Mining Gloss., Biche, a tool ending below in a conical cavity, for recovering broken rods from a bore~hole.

"Old dog" is a complement for a man, while "pig" is a gender neutral insult and "silly cow" or "stupid mare" or are insults to women but we do not make those slang terms the primary meanings in any of the other cases. This insult is a secondary meanings for bitch. So I propose that this page redirects to an article that represents its primary meaning. For those who say that the primary meaning of bitch is the slang meaning, I put it to you that it only has a bite (don't excuse the pun) because most people at whom it is aimed know the real primary meaning. If they did not it would no longer be a strong insult: for example how many women today would be insulted to be called a harlot or a strumpet (I suspect most of those who were so insulted would first have to be told what it meant) before they understood the insulted. -- PBS (talk) 09:42, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

• Conditional support - agree with the above but unless there is to be an article specifically on bitch dog i cant see any point in changing.--Penbat (talk) 16:21, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

• Despite the dictionary, the most common usage is probably that which refers to women. Noloop (talk) 17:08, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

• I could support making the bitch (disambiguation) page into the landing spot for bitch, but I oppose making dog the landing spot. (1) Partially because it is a very large article to land at erroneously, and (2) partially because I don't think the writers at [dog] would appreciate having to deal with the problems associated with both a hatnote and incoming traffic for "bitch". (3) The WP:PRIMARYTOPIC non-obviousness as a minor 3rd reason - the meaning of "bitch" as "complain" is in arguably more common usage than the canine term. HTH. -- Quiddity (talk) 17:19, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I would also have to question this as well. A dictionary would treat the dog as the primary meaning since it was the orginal meaning though I question whether this would be the same for everday use. I personally doubt that the averagre reader typing bitch would be looking for information on dogs. I have no opinion on the idea of making the dab page the primary meaning though I do not agree with the current proposal.--174.90.78.3 (talk) 17:40, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

* Google "bitch woman -dog" gives 7,900,000

* Google "bitch dog -women -woman" gives 3,970,000

--Penbat (talk) 17:48, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Two points. The first is I have recently read a paper (from a link on a talk page) that large Google searches are done using a statistical prediction so they are not very accurate. When I find the section where it was linked, I'll post the link here. The second is that we do not use general ghits on general web pages we use reliable sources to determine the name of a page. Again taking into account the unreliability of ghits their a search on books returns about the same numbers for dog (about 345,000) and woman (about 339,000 results) -- PBS (talk) 02:47, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

• Support a move like the proposed move and support "making the bitch (disambiguation) page into the landing spot for bitch" as suggested above per WP:NOPRIMARYTOPIC. Oppose the title "bitch (slang)" since the usage is not only slang. Maybe bitch (term)? — AjaxSmack 00:36, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
  • "Term" seems confusing, as the canine usage is also a term. Just to throw ideas in: how about Bitch (profanity) (it's in Category:Profanity), Bitch (insult) (a current redirect), or Bitch (vulgarism)? -- Quiddity (talk) 02:15, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
  • I am not hung up on slang or any other dab name and will go with the flow on that, of the three you have given I personally prefer Bitch (profanity) but Bitch (insult) is probably the more suitable dab extention.
    • Bitch (insult) isn't bad. — AjaxSmack 02:52, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
      • I'm amending the target of the requested move to Bitch (insult) -- PBS (talk) 09:07, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
• Comment I don't think "insult" quite captures it. The primary factor is not being insulting, but being profane, so IMO bitch (profanity) is closer to what we'd want. — kwami (talk) 10:15, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm also preferring bitch (profanity) as the new name: partly because it uses the category name which seems sensible; and partly because the word can be used in the profane sense without intending to insult anyone, such as an exclamation about world events, "Son of a bitch!". HTH. -- Quiddity (talk) 17:51, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
    • As I said before I personally prefer Bitch (profanity) but if someone was to put the term into a search engine are they more likely to type 'Bitch insult' or 'Bitch profanity' and the point of a dab is to aid navigation to the article. I can live with either so take my agreement for whichever of the alternatives that have been suggested and I am happy to leave it to the judgement of the closing administrator. -- PBS (talk) 03:29, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support the general idea of the proposal (no great preference for any specific disambiguator) - and does the picture of the dog really illustrate the article topic, if the topic is supposed to be the insulting term? (It's particularly bad under the present title, as it really makes it look as if this is an article about dogs).--Kotniski (talk) 06:20, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. It's not about a profantiy, so that would be silly. Half the article is about something else. Noloop (talk) 06:48, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Do you have any preference or suggestions for a different title? -- Quiddity (talk) 19:40, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Nope. The meaning of the idea and the word are changing. Wait 100 years and check back. Noloop (talk) 21:07, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

• Support move to Bitch (insult) and move and move Bitch (disambiguation) to Bitch, with a reordering. The insult is not the most common meaning, even in today's world - vets and scientists still talk of "bitch" in relation to dogs.  — Amakuru (talk) 07:05, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

That may be, but we don't have an article on the female dog; that will always be part of the "dog" article. So there is no ambuguity and nothing to disambiguate. If that changes, so that there is a desire for an article just on female dogs, then renaming this article would make sense. In the meantime, there's no reason for it. Noloop (talk) 15:35, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

There is ambiguity. This is an encyclopaedia and we base our article names and content on reliable secondary sources. Using Google books as a proxy for the set of reliable sources, (and not a simple web search) the numbers come out at about the same numbers for dog (about 345,000) and woman (about 339,000 results). The word bitch is to dog as Ram is to sheep. There has been no evidence presented so show that In reliable sources that there is a primary topic here. Further just because we do not have an article on the male sheep, we do not fail to have a dab page at ram and mention a common usage. Indeed it could be argued that the article on the word bitch shoudl be on wiktionary but that is another discussion. -- PBS (talk) 20:51, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you're using google books. Comparing raw numbers doesn't reveal much about usage. When I go to google books and search for "bitch" the top hits are:

1. Bitch. Novel. "Precious Cummings came from nothing but was determined to have it all. Using her most deadly weapons - undeniable beauty, body and street savvy brains...." Obviously about the slag term.
2. Bitch: in praise of difficult women
3. Bitch. Novel. "From London to Las Vegas, Hollywood to Athens -- she calls the shots from her plush limos and black satin sheets. She is The Bitch and she is in control. And that could never change -- could it? THE BITCH is the sizzling sequel to THE STUD....."
4. Skinny bitch: a no-nonsense, tough-love guide for savvy girls who ...
5. "Bitch!": the autobiography of Lady Lawford
6. The bitch in the house: 26 women tell the truth about sex, ...
7. You Say I'm a Bitch Like It's a Bad Thing
8. That Bitch: Protect Yourself Against Women with Malicious Intent
9. Bitch: feminist response to pop culture: Volume 39
10. Poor Little Bitch Girl Novel
11. The Bitch Posse Novel
12. I, B.I.T.C.H.
13. . Stitch 'n bitch: the knitter's handbook
14. Bitch Creek Novel. "The story was, someone had named it after a trout fly, but Millie figured some man just named it after his wife."
15. The Bitch at Work "This rowdy new guide is essential whether you're just starting out, climbing the ladder of success or opting out of the rat race to be an entrepreneur."
16. Getting in Touch with Your Inner Bitch
17. The bitch is back: wicked women in literature
18. The Book of the Bitch: A Complete Guide to Understanding and Caring for Bitches "A complete guide to caring for bitches for the experienced breeder and the novice bitch owner"

Not until the 18th hit is the reference to a dog. Noloop (talk) 22:58, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

I think that looking at the quality of the sources is a good idea, not one of the books before number 18 is about the subject, instead bitch is being used to describe something else. Do you have a book that describes the development of the term and its usage in popular culture (as demonstrated by these fist 17 book titles?). BTW how is the word used in general references the OED is listed above and here is the listing for Britannica: bitch (does not mention the insult). -- PBS (talk) 23:54, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Reverts

Any chance of an explanation for this (more or less repeated) revert? I tried to tidy up the top (take out the misleading dog picture, reword the first sentence to make it clear that the article is about the term rather than female dogs, use the common word "dog" instead of "canine", remove the misleading description saying that the derogatory term means somehow like a dog, etc.) and see it all keep getting put back to the mess that was there before. Is there any point to this?--Kotniski (talk) 17:24, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

I didn't think your changes improved the article, so I reverted to the consensus version. The dog in heat is part of the background of the topic, so it's fair and natural to have that as an image. I don't agree that the lead or picture misleads the reader. Noloop (talk) 19:08, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, it most definitely does, when I came to the article (from WP:RM) I immediately thought it was an article about dogs, and the first sentence seemed to confirm that fact. Read it again as if you didn't know, and you'll see. Also the version you've reverted to emphasizes some very marginal meanings of the slang term - since there are so many meanings, we should either mention the most common ones, or just say that there is a variety of meanings and leave it at that.--Kotniski (talk) 06:16, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Although I think that the changes that Kotniski are for the better, there seems little point in altering the text until the WP:RM is finished. I am concerned that the article gives a misleading view of usage for example "In modern usage the term bitch has different meanings depending largely on context and may vary from very offensive to endearing." It also depends on location. I have lived in several parts of the English speaking world where if one woman calls another woman, a bitch then it is done knowing that there will be a physical fight, in such places and among such women there is no "endearing" meaning. As with so much slang these things are regional. -- PBS (talk)

It doesn't say the meaning is endearing. It says it depends largely on context, but in certain cases it can have that meaning. It also says that the insulting meaning is the default or norm. Finding examples of different usage in different contexts makes that point. Noloop (talk) 18:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes of course context can be stretched to mean that but usually, context implies within the same user group. However the article does not explain that as with other words and phrases -- particularly the sort that most people do not use in a formal setting/polite company --such words can have different range of meaning in different dialects. For example the term "son of bitch" tends to be use by North Americans, so calling someone a "son of bitch" elsewhere is likely to sound exotic or strange which would dissolve the force of the intended insult. The point I am making is one can not say "very offensive to endearing" it does not just depend on the context it also depends on the usage by class and geographic location. To go back to the "son of bitch" section it also say "Like 'bitch,' the severity of the insult has diminished.", it is a very big claim to make for every part of the English speaking world. If it means within the subgroup of English speakers that use the term then it may be true (don't know). But that is not what is says. See for example this article where there is little sign that it use as an insult had diminished in South East London. -- PBS (talk) 20:32, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I can't comprehend your logic. Everything you are saying means that you can say "very offensive to endearing". Class and geography are part of context. The news story you cited has nothing to do with the overall topic, other than to illustrate that it is still used as an insult. Noloop (talk) 23:43, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

To try to explain using a binary example. If a Londoner in London says "he's pissed" they mean drunk they would never mean angry (that would be "pissed off" which never means drunk ie "He said he was pissed off with her indoors, so he's gone to the pub to get pissed"). If a New Yorker in New York says "he's pissed" I would assume that they mean angry and not drunk. Dialects don't just change the nuance of a word they can change the meaning, to describe such changes as a change in context, is pushing the envelope so far as to make the text in which it is used unclear. -- PBS (talk) 01:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

The meaning of the word can change dramatically according to context. The fact that the range of meanings may be less in London than in New York doesn't change that.Noloop (talk) 04:09, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

USA bias

I have added {{Template:Globalize/USA|section|date=December 2010}} to the top of the section modern usage because the vast majority (all?) of the references are US. Many slang terms vary greatly between English speaking nations and geographical location within those nations. At the moment the article relies heavily on a few US sources to make universal statements without qualification. The article needs sources from all the major English speaking nations to show that any meaning given to the sang term bitch is widely used and not confined to usage within a specific social subgroup or narrow geographic location. -- PBS (talk) 11:31, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Obvious POV

"The use of the word “bitch” as an insult occurred through its association with the Greek/Roman goddess Artemis-Diana, the goddess of the hunt. Artemis-Diana was often portrayed in the company of dogs, and sometimes as an animal herself. In order to suppress the sacred feminine and to impose Christian rule and ideology on non-Christians and pagans, the expression “son of a bitch” was used in Christian Europe to impugn those who were the spiritual followers of the goddess. The use of the word “bitch,” as applied to women, was linked to suppressing women to equate them with sexually depraved beasts. In short, the word "bitch" originated as a derogatory, sexist slur in ancient Greece and Rome to dehumanize women - or less than a man since the insult is only used against males to compare them to women."

This blatantly POV section asserts as fact a highly contentious ideology and shows blatant prejudice against a religious tradition. It is unsourced (though the editing slyly created the illusion that it is a quote from a cited author, though it is not.) If it is retained, it should be attributed clearly and accurately and the POV of the source should be identified. If this is not remain permanently changed, it is a sign of grave deficiencies in the system here. Zipcedric (talk) 00:03, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

self-identification

I don't follow the logic of removing the section on self-identification [1]. If somebody says "I'm a bitch" it is hardly libel to report what he or she said. Nor is it a BLP violation. Noloop (talk) 18:39, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

True -> Dena Feldman Forman (talk) 15:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Huh?

What is this sentence trying to say?

"As in the culture the term "dawg" is used for males it is sometimes said as a type positive way as "bitch" is the female term" Noloop (talk) 03:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 21 March 2012

Does "Bitch Slap" really need an illustration?

74.95.102.73 (talk) 19:09, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

If you think this image should be removed, then please gain consensus here, but please read WP:NOTCENSORED first! mabdul 13:23, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Reine de Joie

What is this? This old poster needs context spelled out in its caption if it's going to stay because its relationship to the article is not apparent. Otherwise, I plan to remove it. --David Shankbone 04:19, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

First sentence

I think a better way to type this (long sentence with excessive commas):

Bitch, literally meaning a female dog, is a common slang term in the English language, especially used as a denigrating term applied to a person, commonly a woman.

"Bitch, literally meaning a female dog, is also a common slang term in the English language. It's especially used as a denigrating/disparaging term applied to a person, most commonly a female."

Otherwise use parenthesis, perhaps. And is it really just an American-English term? Just some input/thoughts... 99.129.112.89 (talk) 19:44, 4 May 2013 (UTC)