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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 84.175.67.115 (talk) at 17:33, 30 July 2013 (→Clarification of where de Sade actually writes this...: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Potential sources

The following have been removed from the bloated external links section. Feel free to integrate the reliable sources among them into the article as inline citations:

Works online
French
English

Skomorokh 05:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Frank-descended"

The article states:

The de Sade family were Noblesse d'épée, of the oldest, Frank-descended nobility ...

Is there any evidence that de Sade and the noblesse d'épée more generally were of Frankish descent, or was this claim some kind of propaganda put out by the French aristocracy itself? A reliable source would be useful. Norvo (talk) 00:26, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The apparent discrepancy in title between father and son shown by this letter may be explained as in this era a title born by the father conferred a title to the eldest or right heir during the life of the father to the next lower order of precedence. For example, in England during the 17th C it was customary for a father who was a baron for his eldest son to bear the title baronet.

This convention had at its basis the sovereign whose offspring were by right of birth conferred the title prince or princess. This practice fell out of favor as it caused great consternation and confusion in determining the order of precedence among the first sons who would hold a temporary title of the same rank as those who held the same title by inheritance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.15.72 (talk) 06:45, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation of "sadism"

The pronunciation of "sadism" is so variable that I consider it overly judgmental to recommend one over the other. Unfree (talk) 17:49, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Explanation due

The following sentence could benefit from a bit of explanation:

"Later that year his name was entered - whether by error or willful malice - on the list of émigrés of the Bouches-du-Rhône department."

That is, What did his entry on the list imply about him, and to whom, and what consequences might have been expected? Unfree (talk) 18:16, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was wondering the same thing, myself, Unfree. Yours, Wordreader (talk) 07:33, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
During the French Revolution, émigrés were nobles who fled the country. They were considered as traitors, and it implied that their properties could be seized and sold by the governement. Blaue Max (talk) 09:02, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Meaning of "sadism"

From the article: "The namesake of the psychological and subcultural term sadism, his name is used variously to evoke sexual violence, licentiousness and freedom of speech." Perhaps, but how about the libidinous infliction of pain, cruelty, and torture? As it stands, the statement is inadequate. Unfree (talk) 18:42, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, I've never heard the term sadism to refer to freedom of speech. Also, the claim made a few sentences later ("Sade's sexually explicit works were a medium for the articulation of the corrupt and hypocritical values of the elite in his society, which caused him to become imprisoned.") may be true, but should need a citation, correct? Mysticete (talk) 05:28, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Politics

I think that a section on his political views would be in order. Apparently, he was an early predecessor to socialists. Some have even called him an anarchist communist. Zazaban (talk) 07:00, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Religion

You seem to have placed De Sade in the categories French Atheists and Atheism Activists, but I don't see any source in the article stating his religion (or, technically, lack thereof). Simply being critical or religion does not mean he was an atheist. he could easily have been a Deist or Maltheist judging only fromt he article; so if you have sources for his religious positions, please cite them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.89.254.150 (talk) 21:55, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comte Xavier & Publication

How verifyable is this narrative? I'm very sceptical, especially of the statement "Marquis de Sade's works went unpublished and unread in France until the 1960s", regarding the esteem his work was in by avant-garde writers from the likes of Baudillare and Lautremont into the 20th century, eg. Bataille, Genet; they must have had access to his work. Ross.Brighton (talk) 08:24, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Influence

Interesting that Sade's fascination for, and influence on philosophers and writers is, rightly, detailed in the article, but that on some others who were a bit more literal in their admiration, is not. Perhaps that's because the article is a little squeamish in describing what exactly Sade actually depicts in, for instance, 120 Days of Sodom.Straw Cat (talk) 16:44, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Imprisonment for his writings and death

I see the year of his death, but nothing about it. A few sourced quotes:


"Marquis de Sade died at the age of 74 on December 2, 1814, at 10 o'clock in the evening, easily and quietly as a result of a long illness which had nevertheless not impaired his vigor." Ivan Bloch, "Marquis de Sade: His Life and Works"

"died at 10 pm on December 2, 1814, of a 'pulmonary obstruction' following a 'prostrating and gangrenous fever.'" Foreword, The Complete Marquis de Sade, Volume 1 By Marquis de Sade, Paul J. Gillette, John S. Yankowski

"Grossly overweight, the Marquis de Sodomy died on December 2, 1814. De Sade's final request was to be buried in an unmarked grave so that 'all traces of my tomb may disappear from the face of the earth, just as I hope all traces of my memory will be erased from the memories of men.'" The concise guide to sounding smart at parties by David Matalon & Chris Woolsey

"His will, made at Charenton on 30 January 1806, expressly forbade a Christian burial and ended with these words: 'Once the grave has been filled, it shall be sown over with acorns so that all traces of my tomb may disappear from the face of the earth, just as I hope all traces of my memory will be erased from the memories of men, with the exception of those few who kindly continued to love me until the last moments, and of whom I take a pleasant memory to the grave.' Introduction, Plays of the Marquis de Sade, translated by John Charles Franceschina and Ben Ohmart Bustter (talk) 17:22, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Moors muders

The Moors murders are nothing to do with De Sade, please stop posting that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.219.141 (talk) 00:08, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The links are referenced to reliable sources, and a quick google will uncover several others, so please would the anonymous vandalizing of this article be stopped? Straw Cat (talk) 01:13, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"please would the anonymous vandalizing of this article be stopped?"-no. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.208.177 (talk) 23:44, 17 March 2012 (UTC) The "Moors murders" are not relevant to the Marquis De Sade's life or works; his influence in culture goes far beyond two idiotic murderers who shouldn't be even worth mentioning. Why does Ian Brady get a mention on this page, yet the fact that "Sadism" is derived from de Sade's name doesn't? What kind of moron wrote this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.210.40 (talk) 06:10, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Elected?

Excuse me, but this sentence:"In 1790, he was elected to the National Convention, where he represented the far left. He was a member of the Piques section, notorious for its radical views." is completely false. Sade was never a deputy at the Convention, at a certain point he was chosen from his club as a delegate to read a petition in front of the Convention, and I suppose a misunderstanding of the word "delegate" is at the origin of the ridiculous assumption that he was a member of parliament. By the way, the Club des Piques was no radical circle. During Terror, Sade had quite moderate, "humanistic" views, he was against death penalty etc.

Figures of speech

‎"De Sade was forced to disavow his son's desertion in order to save his neck."

Are figures of speech allowed in when they are literally true then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.175.88.138 (talk) 13:13, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Count or marquis?

In the Title and heirs section, there is a discussion of the inheritance of the titles "marquis" and "count" in his family, and a [dubious – discuss] tag. I wonder (I have no evidence) if the family held the title of marquis in the nobility of France, and the title of count in the peerage of France? These were separate institutions, the peerage was the more prestigious, and there were certainly men who held French titles of nobility but were not peers of France. Maproom (talk) 16:44, 17 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]


I don't think the dubious tag is warranted- but a reference is needed.

The desire is to try and label the past with our modern understanding, which is of titles being merely honorific status symbols bestowed by a monarch, but this is far far from true. The article does briefly touch on the different types of nobility, and the different system of precedence and rank, that existed in France: there are some more modern formal peerages (in the style known to Britain) but the majority of titles in France were a less formal kind: usually ancient or traditional titles of nobility which were held from ancient times or that were tied to land; but also frequently titles were simply self-assumed by noble families. These titles were never "bestowed" from a King. This was especially common in France where, in the Medieval period, the Kings were generally weak and lacked both power and land: the powerful nobility held most power and wealth; with a system of vassalage holding France loosely together. Titles were assumed from the land they controlled: a count controlling a county and so forth; but self-assumed titles were common even then for powerful and wealthy families.

As for the alternation between the titles of Marquess and Count: it was a very common way to distinguish between father and son, and is seen in a few different French families. It does seem to be a male only thing though, as most references to their wives use only "Comtesse". In the British system son's are often given one of the father's lesser titles: The Duke of Devonshire's son is known as the Marquess of Hartington, for example. The French did not use courtesy titles- but the alternation of title names is their equivalent way of differentiating.

I have only ever seen the Sade family's titles refereed to as the more traditional type. I have read things where historians have alleged the Sade family may be among those who assumed titles more recently than others (Some families trace back to before the Carolingian age, so what those historians class as early and late is wide open). There doesn't appear to be any easily accessible reliable online lists of peerages either to cross check, which is a shame.

But yes; the information that is there seems to be sound - it just needs reliably referencing. The majority of those used for the article are offline sources; so I shall look into finding a suitable online one tomorrow.

--Rushton2010 (talk) 02:03, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. The mistake here and in the section above misunderstands French noble titles because they are trying to apply the British system of titles to France. Yes, France had a hereditary peerage, but unlike the UK's, the vast majority of legally noble persons -- even those with legal titles -- did not belong to it. In fact, in France the peerage consisted almost entirely of dukes, especially in the post-Medieval era: I can think of no marquis and only one count (the Comte d'Eu) who belonged to France's peerage -- and not even all dukes belonged to the peerage. Although the King could and did grant titles of nobility, the vast majority of French nobles were untitled, and most of those who held titles never received any letters patent for them from the King, they simply assumed them. That's where the confusion lies; in Britain, all noble titles are also peerages (whether hereditary or not) and must have either a writ of summons to the House of Lords or letters patent from the King to bear and pass on a noble title. In France, land, not individuals, were legally titled: that is, any nobleman (but not a commoner) who owned a legal marquisate, countship, viscounty or barony could assume the use of the title and this was considered the traditional way to acquire a title, and was perfectly legal. The process was cheapened as the ancien regime approaches the Revolution, because many persons who were rich and technically noble (because they or a recent ancestor held some post at court or in a regional Parlement which entitled them to be deemed noble) began to purchase lordships and then to assume the title which went along with the lordship. Commoners could even legally buy lands that were lordships, but they were forbidden to assume that lordship's title unless they first became legally noble. This last rule was so frequently broken that it was almost a joke. Technically, the Sades were Seigneurs of Sade and Mazan, and as members of the old nobility, assumed the use of the title marquis and count, which the royal court would not have hesitated to use in referring to them. So it is not possible to document a date when de Sade legally became the Marquis de Sade, he simply used the title (apparently first ascribed to him by his own father) and it became a tradition in his family that was fully recognized by the French royal court. Thus the description of his title in the article is correct -- it just feels strange to anyone who thinks of nobility in terms of the British peerage, which most English-speakers do. By the way, although nobility was abolished in France during the Revolution and never, technically, restored, hereditary titles were restored and remain legal today in republican France. FactStraight (talk) 16:53, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I do remember reading about the French recognition of old titles- I seem to remember it lead to a rather comical attempt at legal action between the descendants of the various french royal families. Someone was attempting to take another to court to stop them from using the title "King of France" because they felt it was theirs. With the various families who had previously held the throne -there's quite a few pretenders and claimants.
Anyway back to Sade... It would be inefficient to go into at length the full descriptions of the French system of nobility within the article, but there obviously needs to be at least some short explanation. Do you have a reference for the "Seigneurs of Sade and Mazan" so that can be included? Might I also suggest that a permanent, more through explanation be left on the talkpage (something that's not then archived) to stop repeating questions from keeping popping up. --Rushton2010 (talk) 18:44, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(The lawsuit to which you refer was launched in 1987 by the then comte de Clermont, eldest son of the Orléanist pretender, along with cousins of the Parmesan and of the Neapolitan branches of the House of Bourbon, against the French legitimist pretender, Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou. It wasn't over the title "King of France", but over use of the royal title of pretence "duc d'Anjou" by the legitimist claimant. The court ruled that since neither Clermont nor any of his cousins had a right to the duc d'Anjou title themselves, they lacked standing to sue Louis Alphonse de Borbón for assuming it -- also noting, however, that the title had last been granted to a Bourbon prince from whom Louis Alphonse did not descend, before being abolished in 1790 during the Revolution and never re-granted. The decision was considered a defeat for the Orléans "side" in the dynastic rivalry, yet established no particular "rights" for the legitimists.)
I agree that there must be some sort of explanation about Sade's marquisate because readers, in general, want to know how he got it and what it implied, while British readers, in particular, will continue to be puzzled by and dubious of the way in which its use differs from what would have been the case in the UK. The problem isn't that we don't know or can't explain the usage, the problem is finding a source which delves into it with sufficient accuracy to become a citation. Nor is it possible to explain it on this page and preserve that explanation from archiving: the best explanation and best sourcing for what we know about it is, in fact, archived on this talk page here. FactStraight (talk) 04:00, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Religion...again

Was he raised in the Catholic faith is that why he was so anti-Catholic? (120.149.122.12 (talk) 11:39, 21 June 2013 (UTC))[reply]

Clarification of where de Sade actually writes this...

'Sade professed that the ultimate goal of an author should be to deliver an accurate portrayal of man,' is found in the literary criticism section but with no citation. It would be very useful for me to know either, or both, of the answers to the following questions. In what text does de Sade express this sentiment? What is the (or an) exact quotation? Thanks.

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