Talk:Statelessness

This page has the exact same text and pics as 1961 Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness. I suggest that one be merged into the other. (Ghostexorcist 03:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC))

No to merge proposal

This page and the other pages about the 'status' and 'reduction' conventions of '54 and '61 have now been differentiated. There is some common content. Thank you for tagging for cleanup, etc.DavidYork71 05:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Though some articles have similar material, all of your pages use the same uncited info over and over again. If you look at the page from this edit, you will see that the '61 page was identical, same sub-headings and everything. And now, even after your multiple edits, these pages still share 60% (and I'm being kind here) of the material. There has not been enough differentiation to merit taking down the merge tag. Either expand this page with new info or merge the two.(Ghostexorcist 07:29, 15 February 2007 (UTC))

Well done to ghostexorcist who placed these pictures much better than I did and filled in text

Re merge proposal with the page on the Statelessness Reduction Convention I still resist this because: 1. the 1961 Convention deserves a page of its own setting out greater detail eg. fuller explanation of the Convention content, the full list of States acceding. '1961 Convention' is now only a small part of this article. 2. the realising of the Convention is a seminal achievement in international humanitarian law. Let's have a Wiki page all of its own to remember the moment when the nations of the world did and said something solemn and uplifting for all the people of the world who didn't have a nation! DavidYork71 12:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge and Unreferenced Tags removed

this article now has four references, plus external links. Content is differentiated from '61 Convention page by treaty text summary appearing there while history of UN action and regional initiatives is mentioned here. Does anyone have infomation about the (proposed?) UN Special Rapporteur on statelessness. DavidYork71 05:19, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

GA NOM

I'm not going to be reviewing this for GA status since I've done some very minor work on the page. But, like I said for the '61 page, this article is going to quickly fail the nomination. It is still more of a list than an article, the sections are too small, and there are only four citations. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm being realistic. There is no set limit for citations, but since this article features a very broad topic, more than four are needed. You also seem to favor statelessness in the 20th century more than that which happened in the past. The article would be better balanced if you offered just as much info on events of statelessness in ancient times as you do the 20th century. Also, try to focus more on countries outside of Europe and Asia Minor. You only briefly touch on Asia Major.

I know for instance, during the Great Anti-Buddhist Persecution of Tang Dynasty China, which was apart of the Four Buddhist Persecutions in China, masses of Non-Chinese people, who had lived there for centuries, were driven out of the country because their religious beliefs were considered heretical forms of Buddhism. These people where forced to the outlying regions of China that were not under the direct control of the Chinese empire.

I think you are really getting a head of yourself when you try to nominate these fledgling articles. You should take the time and build up material before doing so. I see that you have requested a Peer Review. You should have several peer reviews and make requested changes where needed before nominating anything. (Ghostexorcist 00:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC))

Good suggestions. Peer review will attract examination, interest, contributions and ideas.

GA failure

I've failed this for assesment as a GA for a number of reasons that look too large to resolve in a few days

• The lead does not summarise the article per WP:LEAD but is just a series of definitions of the subject
• Much of the article is written in list or dot-point form intermingled with short, single-sentence paragraphs. The text needs to be rewritten as prose.
• Most of the article is unreferenced and the existing references are not well formatted (see WP:CITE)
• boldfacing statelessness everywhere in the article seems a trifle excessive

Really needs an extensive rewrite and a lot of work, followed by the peer review I can see the link for above - Peripitus (Talk) 07:20, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Merging "Stateless person" and "Statelessness"

Stateless person and Statelessness basically talk about the same topic: statelessness of a person. I am aware that the articles are large already. I suggest to merge them and then to see how they may be reasonably split into subtopics. For example UN on statelessness is a well-separable topic. `'Miikka 18:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it would be better to merge them the other direction? I think the current version of statelessness is seriously flawed by a basic assumption that owing allegiance to a state is a good thing, a necessary thing for an individual. While from a practical point of view that may be true, I think that's a flaw in the way the world currently works. I like the current version of stateless person better from that standpoint, although I admit it's a less detailed article.

On the other hand, if the POV problem were addressed, I wouldn't really care which title the merged article ended up at. --Trovatore 18:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Both articles have their own, as well as common, problems. I don't even want to list them now. Before tackling them, IMO the texts must be merged, under whatever title. `'Miikka 19:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree that statelessness may be a little biased, these two articles contain a vast amount of the same information --

This is a needed merge a long time coming. bd2412 T 02:48, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I object unless the word "person" is stricken since it is often used as "coded" reference to effeminate or homosexual "persons" whereas anyone can find themselves "stateless" not just members of a group of "persons" classified as stateless. No one needs to become a member of a group either before or after the fact to become stateless. 71.100.6.153 (talk) 06:27, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

albert einstein

removed the whole passage about einstein: einstein was stateless only between 1896, when he renounced his würtemberg-citizenship, and 1901, when he received his swiss citizenship, which he kept until his death, and therefore not becoming stateless in 1933, after he had renounced his german citizenship, and it would not belong under the titel "after world war II" anyway. the rest about the albanian king is undetected IP-vadalism going all the way back to Revision as of 08:49, 19 January 2009 !!! --Ajnem (talk) 12:14, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

It is however a bit weird that the situation of Jews in Europe prior to WWII is not mentioned here. Telaviv1 (talk) 12:44, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Anarchist Statelessness

As an anarchist, I reject any claim of citizenship made upon myself by the country or group that may surround me, based upon the simple and self evident fact that a binding contract can not be made with an infant such as myself at birth, who was unable to speak or communicate to understand such a contract, that no such contract or terms of contract were even presented to me, and that such a contract does not provide any assent or signature to indicate that I agreed to be bound or tied into such an obligation or contract, irregardless of what some third party (my parents) may have tacitly assented to. Lysander Spooner argued it best: a contract without a signature made without the assent of the party to be bound by such a contract, is a non-binding contract. Doubly so, when as an adult I further adamently can reject such a one sided bargain. A state can not assign citizenship to me and pawn it off as some kind of privilege or gift when I myself see no upside to such a devil's deal. This article seems to be written from a biased point of view that statelessness is some kind of undesirable pox to be rid of and should not be wished upon anybody, when many anarchists might argue quite the contrary.

I do not see such a thing as citizenship particularly beneficial, as such states fail to protect their members from harm, and place a seemingly limitless number of rules, regulations, and onerous taxations and obligations upon them. This article seems skewed to presenting statelessness in a pejorative context. I think some section of an Anarchist viewpoint in favor of statelessness being the first, original, and natural state of a human being should be included in this article, considering divestiture from any binding or association with anything state is core to the anarchist political philosophy. I'm rather new to Wiki editing myself, so am hesitant to make these changes myself, feeling somewhat more free to participate in the discussion back page. 71.226.11.248 (talk) 09:24, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Stateless Territories

At the risk of seeming frivolous, I think some reference should be made to stateless territories which are stateless such the Moon, Planets, expanses of outer space in general, unexplored heavenly bodies, on the high seas in international waters, and the dubious validity of any claims made upon them by states, perhaps in a stub or linked article. Also territories that should have remained stateless by choice (or international agreement?) such as the Arctic Circle and Antarctic Circle, and that those born within these regions would be stateless by default. At first glance this may seem frivolous to reference, but I think including them, particularly outer space, would show that indeed, the vast bulk of the universe (over 99.9999999999% of it), is indeed, stateless.

Also some reference should be made to those people who in whole groups, reasserted their statelessness by choice and aggressive military resistance, such as the Free_Territory_(Ukraine) and those villages and peoples liberated by the Nestor_Mahkno anarchist Black Army, and the general statelessness of all of Russia and the people living in such territory after the tsarist regime collapse. Or for that matter, the people of any state which has collapsed, for example, Germany, Italy, and Japan at its collapse at the cessation of hostilities after World War 2, or The Confederacy after the American Civil War, or in more modern times, Afghanistan, Iraq, or Somalia after the collapse of the states and governments within them. They ceased to exist as a country or state, and at that point only existed as a geographic region named and marked on a map. Indeed, such lines are nothing more but invisible lines in the dirt, and if someone can actually put their finger upon a state, I should argue the idea of a state is nothing more than that... an idea with no real physical existence at all. Once this group and its associated governing bodies is shattered and it ceases to be a functional nation due to outside hostile destruction, the members of the group revert to being... stateless individuals.

Some cultures, such as aboriginal cultures, Native Americans, or maternal centered tribal societies, do not practice any form of statehood at all, as it is not an idea or concept in their culture or even something which is desired. These territories were illegally and unjustly considered stateless and open for annexation and overrun by paternally driven aggressive societies, when they were not (for a biting and humorous description of this, see: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Geocaching). The aboriginal cultures view of the Earth was that it belonged to all of humanity as a whole. Indeed, many Native American tribes argued that many treaties that supposedly sold off large tracts of land for trinkets of beads by some ad hoc representative of one tribe, were invalid, because all of the continent belonged to them as a whole aggregate in the same tradition of the commons. 71.226.11.248 (talk) 09:24, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Largest?

This article says that Palestinians are the largest stateless nation in the world, but there are about three times as many Kurds in the world as Palestinians. Gtbob12 (talk) 11:39, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I removed this claim, as it's been almost a year, and no source has been provided. If someone has a verifiable source, feel free to put it back with the citation. .אבי נ (talk) 10:10, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Superman

Would Superman have been a stateless person? In the DC comics canon, he was born on Krypton (an extraterrestrial body, and thus presumably either terra incognita or international territory by Earth law) and was adopted by Americans. He would presumably have been raised as an American. But would he have needed to be naturalized? 198.151.130.69 (talk) 04:05, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

this is interesting, in light of the above question 198.151.130.69 (talk) 04:09, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Statelessness not problem

Actual problem is way countries treat people they don't accept, people they not accept as citizen. If countries treat all people in borders equally then statelessness not problem. Citizenship system is actual problem, hard for people to change and get citizenships. Article automatically assume stateless is negative, but a global system with no citizenship, all countries treat all people in border equally, all people pay tax for income sources in countries would have much more freedom and much more economic flexibility than current system. Trinhhoa (talk) 05:14, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Please see WP:SOAP and WP:TPG. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 01:49, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

ROC

Removed ROC as an example of a non-state whose citizens are effectively stateless. Most residents of Taiwan are considered PRC citizens by the PRC. So even if you consider the ROC not to exist, they aren't stateless.

Roadrunner (talk) 09:44, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Not effectively stateless, the RoC functions as an effective state. Officially residents might be stateless given most nations recognise the PRC rather than the RoC as the Chinese government but I understand that with the exception of the PRC all governments recognise RoC passports and hence give de facto recognition of RoC statehood. Could be included as an example of official but not practical statelessness. Should I add that to suggest RoC citizens are PRC citizens would be considered highly offensive to some? The closest parallel would be calling Canadians, US citizens, except without the humour of that suggestion. 118.208.147.209 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:36, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Canadian cases

I'm a bit confused by the two Canadian cases here. While this article cites proper sources, it also links to two wikipedia articles which contradict the information here. As Rachel Chandler's mother was a Chinese citizen at the time of her birth, Nationality Law of the People's Republic of China says that "Any person born in China whose parents are both Chinese nationals or one of whose parents is a Chinese national shall have Chinese nationality." She was probably not stateless, but just denied a passport by China. In Chloe Goldring's case, the article at Belgian nationality law says that "A person born in Belgium (to non-Belgian parents) is a Belgian citizen if that person: holds no other nationality at the time of birth (i.e., is stateless)" and further down also says "A person may be naturalised as a Belgian citizen after three years residence in Belgium. This period is reduced to two years for political refugees and stateless persons." This contradicts this article, which says "Due to the nationality laws of Belgium, Canada and Algeria, she was not eligible for citizenship of any of those countries and was born stateless." Perhaps she was born stateless, but because of that she would have been eligible for Belgian citizenship. If this is incorrect, then the article Belgian nationality law is incorrect and needs to be fixed. 78.148.151.203 (talk) 07:36, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm guessing that the word parent in Chinese nationality law might exclude unmarried parents. An unfortunate but but uncommon feature of nationality law. Although it's surprising that there's no ability to "legitimate" a child born outside marriage upon marriage of her parents.

The Belgian article is wrong. Belgian nationality law actually says that:

"Any child born in Belgium who, at any time before reaching the age of 18 or being declared of full age, would be stateless if he or she did not have Belgian nationality, shall be Belgian."

So Chloe Goldring while born stateless, would have become a Belgian citizen were she still stateless on her 18th birthday. — Blue-Haired Lawyer ^t 13:25, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

UK case

I am posting the background to an ongoing UK case, a man who was declared stateless by the UK government in 1980. In the first instance the identity of the individual is concealed as the case is still actively working. It is potentially a solvable problem and it is likely that matters will come to a head in the next few months and I will add the name and references as soon as possible. For the moment I will just say that I have seen the documentation first hand. IainWallace (talk) 12:21, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid this doesn't pass muster. Wikipedia doesn't permit editors to conduct their own research or publish information which does not have citable sources. — Blue-Haired Lawyer ^t 14:38, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, O.K. The problem is the word "citable". Its not my research, although I am now involved in further research to solve the problem. I have official documents to hand, including Home Office statements of statelessness and copies of the UN stateless persons documents. A handful of background documents are available online (some behind paywalls) but nothing dealing with the story of the statelessness problem. I hope the problem will be settled within a few months, if the Home Office dig their heels in it may well go through a phase when there will be plenty of sources to cite, otherwise I'll come back to it when it is just a historical curiousity (with sources!) IainWallace (talk) 22:52, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

If you read Wikipedia's policy on original research you'll get what I meant when I said research. A press release would probably result in some newspaper articles that we could cite. I'm curious however: how could someone whose father was British (by birth?) and who was born in "her Majesty's dominions" not be a British citizen? And even if he was a British subject without citizenship why doesn't he apply under section 4B of the 1981 Act? — Blue-Haired Lawyer ^t 18:22, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Germany

The section on Germany assumes that an individual loses his or her citizenship immediately upon denouncing it. I reasonably sure this is wrong for most countries, for which denunciation is only effective upon successful acquisition of another nationality. — Blue-Haired Lawyer ^t 18:01, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Stateless in Sabah

The article doesn't cover the Stateless in Sabah. While it is hard to get accurate figures on how many stateless people there are in Sabah, estimate are around the 100K mark. These people (like my partner) where born in Malaysia (with/without authentic Malaysian birth cerificates), but as their parents (or in some cases grandparents) came to Malaysia illegally - they aren't considered Malaysian citizens. The Phillipines Governments also make in neigh impossible for them to get citizenship by descentSepilok2007 (talk) 01:54, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Dominican Republic case

The haitians born in the Dominican territory should not be considered stateless. An individual born anywhere from haitian parents is still haitian according to the haitian constitution.

Standing descent: A person born in Haiti does not automatically receive citizenship. A child, regardless of where they are born, is considered Haitian if either their mother or father is a native-born citizen of Haiti. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Haitian_nationality_and_citizenship

Article 11: Any person born of a Haitian father or a Haitian mother who are themselves native-born Haitians and have never renounced their nationality possesses Haitian nationality at the time of birth. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Haïti — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrocha (talk • contribs) 05:57, 24 October 2013 (UTC)