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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Wikiman2244 (talk | contribs) at 16:39, 3 January 2014 (→‎Edits: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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I'm not sure that this article is a NPOV or provides any meaningful information about the issue.Cpaliga 00:31, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

it provides the only information concerning the movement on Wikipedia right now. it describes the movement and the reason why it was created, how is that not meaningfull??

  • As it was when I found it, the article was definitely not NPOV and was probably created by a member or supporter of the movement. I edited it to remove POV while attempting to leave information regarding the goal of the organization. The article did not however provide any information about whether Breaking the Silence has any real impact. Without perspective, it doesn't seem encyclopedic. That being said, I would support an unbiased expansion by somebody who is knowledgeable about the organization. Cpaliga

"Breaking the Silence" is a noteworthy Israeli organization that has garnered press around the world in the last few years. Its recent tour of US campuses was controversial, prompting the Zionist Organization of America and the Israel advocacy group, "Stand with Us" to request that one of BTS's sponsors, the Union of Progressive Zionism, be ousted from the umbrella Israel-advocacy Israel Campus Coalition (The ICC's Steering Committee unanimously rejected the request.)

At this point, any attempt to delete the article can only be viewed as an attempt by opponents to muzzle the group. The article will be expanded in the near future, and will continue to present at NPOV. JeremiahHaber

Check?

A direct quote from reference no 2 reads: Amongst visitors to the gallery were people who expressed their wish to give witness about things they had seen, things that happened in their presence, things they were part of, things they initiated and carried out.

It is also customary for the opening description to be an un-cited summary.Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 03:47, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Roger. Thanks for adding "alleged."ShamWow (talk) 17:16, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Also

I put "Human rights in Israel" here but I want to link to the section in the human rights sections entitled "Human rights record in the Occupied Territories." Anyone know how to do that? Thanks.ShamWow (talk) 19:21, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ex servicemen organisations ......Breaking the silence is not about human rights per say...It's about the psychological problems occurring in ex-soldiers and how to alleviate guilt etc..Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 19:36, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nonetheless, it does deal with human rights and the human rights abuses these individuals say they were part of. And it still is not a "refusenik" organization. From website: "We demand accountability regarding Israel's military actions in the Occupied territories perpetrated by us and in our name." It does not advocate that soldiers should not serve in the army.ShamWow (talk) 19:57, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

BtS does not deal with human rights, It deals with ex-sevicemen's psychological problems....it is also used by human rights organisations, visiting dignitaries, etc etc. had BtS been about human rights the testimonies would not be anonymous...

It is an ex-seviceman's association...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 20:08, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's says nothing about what you talked about on the organization's website. From "About Us": "Breaking the Silence voices the experiences of those soldiers, in order to force Israeli society to address the reality which it created." Additionally, "We demand accountability regarding Israel's military actions in the Occupied territories perpetrated by us and in our name."

Yehuda Shaul and others in the organization also provide tours of Hebron. This seems to undermine the claim that it is simply an "ex-seviceman's association." And the fact that you describe it an "ex-seviceman's association" shows it would not really have any association with an organization like Yesh Gvul whose purpose is for soldiers not to serve in the first place.ShamWow (talk) 20:18, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ashley, I am aware that it's about the Occupied territories, not Israel. That's why I would like to link to the section in the page on "Human rights in Israel" on the Occupied territories. Do you know how to make a link to a section within a page? Thanks.ShamWow (talk) 20:33, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Yehuda Shaul and others in the organization also provide tours of Hebron....is about opening up to others ie breaking the silence..expiation of what Yehuda Shaul perceives as past sins...covered by it is also used by human rights organisations, visiting dignitaries, etc etc. above

Both organisations share some similarities, both are servicemen associations,... both are about about Israeli military behaviour in the occupied territories...both believe it is morally bankrupting the Israeli military....that is why it is not about the human rights issues...it is about morality of the Israeli military.......Yesh Gvul is not about refusing to serve it is about refusing to serve in the occupied territories and morals ....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 20:48, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't really make sense given that Yesh Gvul "arose in response to the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon," not to Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1967. They may both believe that the occupation of these territories is morally bankrupting Israel (though I don't see that in any Breaking the Silence literature), but both organizations have completely different modus operandis. Connecting the two is not a natural association, but an unnecessary stretch that detracts from the clarity of the article.ShamWow (talk) 21:04, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Breaking the Silence is an organization of veteran Israeli soldiers that collects testimonies of soldiers who served in the Occupied Territories during the Second Intifadah. Soldiers who serve in the Territories are witness to, and participate in military actions which change them immensely. Cases of abuse towards Palestinians, looting, and destruction of property have been the norm for years, but are still excused as military necessities, or explained as extreme and unique cases. Our testimonies portray a different and grim picture of questionable orders in many areas regardin[g] Palestinian civilians. These demonstrate the depth of corruption which is spreading in the Israeli military. While this reality which is known to Israeli soldiers and commanders exists in Israel's back yard, Israeli society continues to turn a blind eye, and to deny that which happens in its name. Discharged soldiers who return to civilian life discover the gap between the reality which they encountered in the Territories , and the silence which they encounter at home. In order to become a civilian again, soldiers are forced to ignore their past experiences. Breaking the Silence voices the experiences of those soldiers, in order to force Israeli society to address the reality which it created. Breaking the silence

Yesh Gvul slogan: “We don’t shoot, we don’t cry, and we don’t serve in the occupied territories !”Yesh Gvul...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 21:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Breaking the Silence" is not a human rights organization in itself, but it deals with actual dilemmas of possible abuses of human rights and/or transgressions of the IDF Code of Conduct against militants and Palestinian civilians. A See also link is proper to direct readers to pertinent content on a related page that's not otherwise internally linked in the preceding text, and I support it here. Discussions of "feelings" aside, the soldiers are raising specific issues of IDF practices that they themselves have witnessed or even participated in, and also brings these to the attention of the public via their photo exhibition, website, discussions, etc. It is not a mere "encounter group" for participants only. And why "ex-servicemen"? If I understand correctly, the founders initially spoke out after their term of compulsory IDF service; have they not remained eligible for reserve duty? If so, they could correctly be described as veterans. ("Reservists" would be the term to describe those who served in the territories after discharge from compulsory service.) -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:54, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The term "servicemen"

Both on the page and in the above discussion (which would probably benefit from having headings added), the word "servicemen" is used. I suggest a more suitable term would be IDF soldier, that is entirely gender neutral and all-inclusive. Among the many female IDF soldiers, present and past, are those who serve or have served at West Bank checkpoints, and increasingly in combat units. The argument that "servicemen" is "understood to include the female" is beside the point when a suitable equivalent and universally understood term may be substituted. I would, of course, not do so on the Talk page. -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:42, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I stand corrected; although service personnel would be the more correct term....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 10:54, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Critic, new section

There is more than necessary critical responses such as quotes there is better to have them all in one section. That look more encyclopediac. Toolsother (talk) 03:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anonimity

The claim is that they are anonimous because of an order. There is no any order that prevents a reserve duty serviceman of trporting anything to the media in Israel. So far no evidence exists.--Rm125 (talk) 16:52, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Orders to Israeli soldiers against speaking out publicly

"Breaking the Silence maintains that the testimony is anonymous because of IDF orders to Israeli soldiers against speaking out publicly"

This has been erased since the reference doesn't say it.N reliable sourse for this claim is given. --Rm125 (talk) 06:56, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There was certainly a source for saying that this is what BtS claims. Nor is there currently any WP:RS to support the idea that their claims are untrue. Rd232 talk 07:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


There was certainly a source((( No this is yor mistake-reread and give specifics))) for saying that this is what BtS claims. Nor is there currently any WP:RS to support the idea that their claims are untrue((( not relevant If somebody tells Mary is a whore- Mary does not need to prove that she is not a whore but it is NESSESARY to say that there this is not a fact. This is for an accuser to prove,ask your attorney, genius.) --Rm125 (talk) 22:05, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think - with your excited analogy - you've entirely missed the point. There is a source [1] that says BtS claims this. There are no sources saying BtS did not claim this; nor are there any sources saying the BtS claim is untrue. If you have such sources, produce them. (See WP:V.) Rd232 talk 22:13, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Have you read my previous post? --Rm125 (talk) 22:22, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you haven't please reread and think for 2 minutes about it --Rm125 (talk) 22:24, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have read your post, now return the favour and read mine. And if necessary, no original research policy. Rd232 talk 22:32, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In addition, by adding your unsourced claim in the place you add it, it looks like it's sourced to the BBC article. This is substantially worse than merely WP:OR. Rd232 talk 22:34, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK looks like we reached a compromice here , I just added "Allaged" witch has the same effect. --Rm125 (talk) 23:09, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Problem with the opening chapter

"By publishing true accounts of soldiers, Breaking the Silence hopes to "force Israeli society to address the reality which it created" and face the truth about "abuse towards Palestinians, looting, and destruction of property" that is familiar to soldiers.[1]"

This is written from the biased point of view, definately not neutral poin of view.

Suggestion to rewrite:

"Breaking the Silence hopes to "force Israeli society to address the alleged abuse of Palestinians, as well as claims of looting and destruction of their property" as experienced by IDF soldiers and reserve servicemen.[1]"

Let me know if this vertion looks more "neutral" and less bias --Rm125 (talk) 07:13, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You must be joking. You can't rewrite direct quotes. [2] Rd232 talk 07:55, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. No re-phrasing of quotes.--Jim Fitzgerald (talk) 09:01, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You guys haven't understood what I meant. The problem is not a quote but keeping a neutral perspective as to Wikipedia Policy. Here is my suggestion fot rewrite:

Breaking the Silence hopes to "force Israeli society to address the reality which it created" and face the allegations of "abuse towards Palestinians, looting, and destruction of property" according to the soldiers.
This is as opposed to: Breaking the Silence hopes to "force Israeli society to address the reality which it created" and face the truth about "abuse towards Palestinians, looting, and destruction of property" that is familiar to soldiers

I think it is reasonable by all accounts. Let me know what do you think. --Rm125 (talk) 22:53, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

By publishing "true accounts" of soldiers

I recommend to rewrite it to "By publishing soldiers allegations" There is a difference here by "true accounts" and "allegations". By all accounts "true" to them doesn't mean "true" to IDF. I strongly suggest to rewrite.--Rm125 (talk) 23:21, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Question. What is the best way to rewrite the opening chapter?

I don't see the way to rewrite the first chapter. Any advice? --Rm125 (talk) 23:24, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ten Israeli based “human rights” organizations

The list is not nessesary since you can read it in the sourse and among other reasons it doesn't contributes to the article. Edited for clarity. --Rm125 (talk) 00:39, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Last reverts

Rm125, if you would like to make such substantial edits that is fine, but pls discuss them here before erazing the whole paragraphs. --Jim Fitzgerald (talk) 10:52, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rm125 absolutely does not need to discuss his edits here firstly, but I agree that they certainly deserve better edit summaries to justify. --Shuki (talk) 19:55, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jim,some edits are for clarity,some for misspellBing, some relevant refs,some NRS. Pls. make your point-point by point.--Rm125 (talk) 15:18, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Labelling of Avigdor Lieberman's politcal stance on his Wiki article

Quote: "A large number of mass media sources within and outside of Israel have labelled Yisrael Beiteinu and Lieberman as far right or ultra nationalist. Others consider him right wing or a populist.[41] However, in general, Israelis are divided on how to characterize Lieberman's politics." Jim Fitzgerald post 07:03, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What's your WP:POINT? This is an article about an NGO, not a place to add perceived weasel words about people. --Shuki (talk) 09:40, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Shuki, you are millions of times right that Wiki is NOT about the POV! But, I am just mirrowing the wiki article about Lieberban, where it says, among others, that Lieberman is regaded as far right, populist, right, and even ultra-nationalist. Besides that, there was an Offical Statement by the Ministry of Foreing Affairs (headed by Lieberman) that protested EU members against funding the BtS. So this is the offical stance of the Israel about the BtS and its activities. This is what the referenced RS article says.

(My personal view) is my view and has no place in Wiki. But if you want to further discuss the topic just between us then just send me a private message at my page, and that message would be dispatched to my e.mail. thanks anyway for raising the issue, Jim Fitzgerald post 17:18, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Palestinian funding to BTS

I deleted the part saying BTS tour was funded by Palestinian organizations.Just because someone wrote it in his article,doesn't make it right.The BTS donors list is on their web site,un bases accusations are inappropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.228.208.18 (talk) 22:54, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

..and I've reverted you. The statement is supported by the source. Sean.hoyland - talk 02:35, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits

I reverted the addition of this as "irrelevant, duplicative, POV, opinion, sourced to NGO Monitor". I don't have much to add to that. Rd232 talk 12:18, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

it might help if you explain how it is "irrelvant" (since it directly discusses criticism of BtS). and could you explain how it is "duplicative" since this is new material. and please explain "POV" since it is sourced and based on facts. and, yes, please explain "opinion" (see POV). and yes, two of the three are sourced to NGO Monitor. please explain why is that an issue? Soosim (talk) 12:48, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK. 1. the first sentence is duplicative - the anonymous nature of the testimonies is already covered, this is not disputed so mere mention of it isn't valid criticism. The claim about seeking war crimes charges is vague and if true doesn't belong in the criticism section. 2. Harel's commentary is mere opinion, it doesn't convey any additional information, and there is no evidence his opinion is notable enough to merit inclusion here. His claim doesn't make any sense anyway, he's criticising BtS for deviating from a mission ("seeking justice for specific injustices") which AFAIK is not their stated mission, to a path that is their stated mission ("exposing the gap between the reality which they encountered in the [occupied] territories, and the silence which they encounter at home."). That's not valid criticism. 3. The activities of BtS members are irrelevant unless those activities are endorsed by BtS; and the content is quite possibly a WP:BLP violation as well ("anti-Israel activists" - really?). 4. The strong non-neutrality of NGO Monitor is not hard to divine from its WP entry. Rd232 talk 18:25, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the material sourced to NGO Monitor. NGO Monitor are not a reliable source for statements of fact in Wikipedia. Also, WP:NPOV is a mandatory policy. The section 'Due and undue weight' explains the inclusion criteria for material. That includes "Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject". NGO Monitor publishing something on their website doesn't make it a significant viewpoint published by a reliable source. Significance is demonstrated by the weight given to the view in reliable sources so if NGO Monitor says something and it is not picked up by secondary sources like Jpost etc it does not meet the inclusion criteria. We don't get to include things just because we like them or because we think they are significant views. The sources decide what is significant. As for Harel's balanced editorial/analysis and the cherry-picking of a specific negative quote from that source, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and should present balanced information "in a neutral, dispassionate tone". If, for the sake of argument, Harel's views are significant then why is it that the only information that gets included is that quote ? These edits are, in my view, a clear example of POV pushing with no attempt to provide balance and comply with the mandatory policies of this project. Sean.hoyland - talk 02:58, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yehuda Shaul

The "Yehuda Shaul" link within this Breaking the Silence page redirects to this page. Does anyone know if there previously was a page for Yehuda Shaul that was deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vatan79 (talk • contribs) 17:08, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edits

This article seems to be very biased and takes a strong Palestinian apologist POV. It lacks any information about the numerous times the organization has been found untrustworthy based on their unaccounted for testimonies.

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