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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 87.242.150.136 (talk) at 18:02, 10 April 2014. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Croatian and Slovenian

Hello, I have twice undone edits calling the duo Slovenian and Croatian. The reason for this is because both Sulic and Hauser are Croatian, but Sulic was born in Slovenia. He has dual citizenship, but is not actually of Croatian heritage (his parents are Croatian). Because of this, and because the two first met in Croatia, I think it would be simplest and most logical to say that their origin is "Croatia". The article could say that Sulic is Slovenian Croatian, whether in the lede or in a footnote, but I think this only complicates the issue and is not directly relevant to the article. Now, this would likely warrant a mention if their nationalities were disputed in the media or something similar, but for now, I think it is more appropriate to say "Croatian" and be done with it. This is also how the majority of sources are reporting the duo. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 18:08, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The policy of Wikipedia (also in biographies) is to state nationality first, and ethnicity after that. Most sources confirm Šulić has double citizenship. It also seem beyond any doubt that his father is Croatian. Nevertheless (according to his own statements in an interview, also quoted in his article on wp), it seems his mother is a Slovene from Maribor. He is a Slovenian citizen and has spent most of his life in Slovenia. Thus, he is Slovenian (of partial Croatian descent, of course, as many other Slovenians). Viator slovenicus (talk) 16:26, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The only trustworthy reference is http://www.matica.hr/www/vijesti2www.nsf/AllWebDocs/ciklus202?OpenDocument ,also saying he is from Dubrovnik http://dubrovacki.hr/clanak/25976/pozdrav-mojim-pilarima .In the end their OFFICIAL facebook page should be enough http://www.facebook.com/2cellos/info. So stop changing the article. They are both Croatian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.141.122.228 (talk) 16:04, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Why is Matica Hrvatska the only trustworthy reference? It contradicts all other sources (except those Croatian ones that most obviously take their information from it). The official Facebook page doesn't mention anything about Šulić's nationality. It only says that their "Hometown" is Croatia. Now, I think we can agree that Croatia cannot be qualified as a "Hometown", so it's clearely a simplification, which is the resulting from the limitations of the facebook application. Viator slovenicus (talk) 15:07, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If Luka was Slovenian they could have put hometown Croatia and Slovenia,but since they did not it clearly states they are both Croatian. Furthermore on every show they are on,both are announced as a cello duo from Croatia,not a single show announced them as a pair from Croatia and Slovenia,again if Luka was Slovenian he wouldn't put up with his country being neglected(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wtBXkGrxws , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkuCRU5lLX8 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4oNp9iAnRI&feature=related , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q28RhnkhMgs&feature=related , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=531gS0UW-XQ&feature=related). In the end the information they provided to Sir Elton John clearly states they are both Croatian (http://www.eltonjohn.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110608&contentid=20202498). Unless you can dispute these facts refrain yourself from altering the article or i will be forced to report you.
As already said, per WP:UNDUE, the majority of sources are given prominence, and there is exactly one source claiming that Sulić was born in Croatia and plenty of others claiming he was born in Maribor, Slovenia (the sources have already been provided, but a quick list is available also at [1]). The Facebook page does not state he was born in Croatia, and per WP:OR, original deductions are not accepted here. --Eleassar my talk 09:17, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Since when does place of birth determine nationality? I was born in Tokio,Japan because my father was working there at the time,lived there until i was 7,but never has anyone thought that i was Japanese. Same thing with Luka, if he declares himself Croatian,than that is what he is. Again their OFFICIAL facebook page states that,and on every show they are guest stars,they are announced as a cello duo from Croatia,if Luka was Slovenian don't you think he would say something to the hosts of the show?Until they start announcing them as a cello duo from Croatia and Slovenia (and that will never happen) it must mean Luka identifies himself as a Croatian,thus that is what must be written in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Odiriuss (talk • contribs) 09:38, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The infobox does not cite nationality, it cites origin. If someone is born in Slovenia, he may be of Croatian nationality (as explained above, not proven for Šulić), but his origin is Slovene too, particularly if his place of birth is stressed in such a number of sources. He is described as the Slovenian/Slovenian-Croatian cello player in multiple reliable sources, like [2][3][4]. --Eleassar my talk 09:40, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable sources?Are you serious? 2 news portals from Slovenia and one from Croatia? That is your reliable source? And how is it not proven he is of Croatian nationality? What,all the shows i listed above are wrong,and you are right? All the shows listed above where they are introduced as Croats is a lesser source than a news portal?Wouldn't you think the hosts of the show would ask them where they are from? So is their facebook page wrong? Are you really serious with this? I cannot inderstand why you would keep this up since they were not ONCE introduced as a cello duo from Croatia ans Slovenia,but always from Croatia?Does Luka not know where he is from,because that is what you are implying here. Please stop this nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Odiriuss (talk • contribs) 09:57, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Of course I am serious, I wouldn't mention it if I would not be serious. Delo and Dnevnik are among the most reliable Slovenian newspapers, and if the reports are not good enough for you, you may read the words by Šulić himself in Delo[5]: "V petek imamo koncert v Mariboru, evropski prestolnici kulture, mojem rojstnem mestu." ["On Friday we have a concert in Maribor, the European Capital of Culture, my birth town."] So please stop this nonsense. --Eleassar my talk 10:12, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No one is disputing he was born there. What about all the shows they were on : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wtBXkGrxws , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkuCRU5lLX8 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4oNp9iAnRI&feature=related , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q28RhnkhMgs&feature=related , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=531gS0UW-XQ&feature=related . What about the article on Elton Johns page : http://www.eltonjohn.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110608&contentid=20202498 . All of these sources trump yours,since they are videos with 2cellos on them,they are asked in 2 of the shows mentioned if they were form Croatia and they said yes. That is a the BIGGEST evidence for them being Croatian. In the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q28RhnkhMgs&feature=related see part at 1:00 mark (you are both from Croatia: and they say YES) , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=531gS0UW-XQ&feature=related see part at 1:45 mark (you guys are from Croatia,what do you miss about that lovely place). This is the ULTIMATE proof,if you can find a video where Luka says he is from Slovenia that you may change the article,but unless you can do that (and of course you cannot) your actions will be considered vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Odiriuss (talk • contribs) 10:35, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Again,just so that everyone can see this,ULTIMATE proof. In the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q28RhnkhMgs&feature=related see part at 0:55 mark (you are both from Croatia: and they say YES) , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=531gS0UW-XQ&feature=related see part at 1:40 mark (you guys are from Croatia,what do you miss most about that beautiful country ). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Odiriuss (talk • contribs) 10:39, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is no evidence. In an interview in November last year he stated that his mother was a Slovene, that he was born in Maribor, that he visited school there, that his family lives there and that his home is in Maribor.[6] He continued his studies in Croatia, and his father is a Croat from Dubrovnik. Therefore, he is of Slovenian-Croatian origin and nationality. I'm not even sure he has the Croatian citizenship. --Eleassar my talk 11:20, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is no evidence? You are not sure he even has Croatian citizenship? Are you blind and deaf sir? Could you not see and hear the video interviews i provided? You are clearly not objective, it is the ultimate form of evidence seeing as it is a video interview. I am afraid that you are blinded by your arrogance. The article you provided states nothing new and states nothing about his nationality whatsoever. I have contacted a neutral administrator to lock this article since your blatant vandalism attempts are hurting the credibility of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Odiriuss (talk • contribs) 11:32, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Where exactly he says or anybody else says that he has the Croatian citizenship? --Eleassar my talk 11:34, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am done arguing with you. You cannot prove your points,you have no evidence for your claims and you refuse to accept valid evidence such as: In the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q28RhnkhMgs&feature=related see part at 0:55 mark (you are both from Croatia: and they say YES) , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=531gS0UW-XQ&feature=related see part at 1:40 mark (you guys are from Croatia,what do you miss most about that beautiful country ).

A better question would be why didn't he say he was Slovenian in both of those interviews if he was.

Or why didn't the host announce them as a cello duo from Croatia and Slovenia rather then just Croatia in the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wtBXkGrxws , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkuCRU5lLX8 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4oNp9iAnRI&feature=related . Luka would feel insulted if he was Slovenian,to have his country not mentioned not once,not twice but at least three times, wouldn't he?

Or why does it say in the article on Elton John page they are both Croatian? The man they are currently on tour with would surely know? http://www.eltonjohn.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110608&contentid=20202498

Or why does their OFFICIAL facebook page say hometown: Croatia, instead of hometown: Croatia and Slovenia? http://www.facebook.com/2cellos/info

When you can answer all of those questions and find video proof that says otherwise,you can change the article. Odiriuss (talk) 11:47, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you wish, we may ask for dispute resolution at WP:3O or WP:Request for comment. Otherwise, I think someone else will change the article, even if I refrain from this. --Eleassar my talk 11:50, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've posted a request for a third opinion. --Eleassar my talk 12:03, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Third opinion

According to Template:Infobox musical artist, the "origin" section of the Infobox is for "the city from which the singer or group originated (that is, the city where the group was founded; or the city where individual performers started their career, should it not match the location of their birth)", so should be Zagreb, Croatia, and not include Slovenia. As for the introduction, I think it would probably be best to avoid mentioning the nationality of the duo. Their backgrounds are described in the first section, so I see no need to include it in the intro. Number 57 12:13, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, this is a well-founded opinion. The origin and nationality can be and is discussed and well-referenced in the article Luka Šulić. --Eleassar my talk 12:18, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you!Finally someone with some reason. Even though i do not agree with leaving out the nationality in the intro,as it makes for confusion if it states in their background that Luka was born in Slovenia it would be wise to leave the intro as it is to not confuse the readers what their nationality is. I request an admin to lock this article to prevent further vandalism! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Odiriuss (talk • contribs) 12:20, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If the nationality is included in the intro, which may be, it should be stated Slovene-Croatian, per the sources listed above. --Eleassar my talk 12:24, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Again you start. What sources? Slovenian? Cause in all other sources all around the world they are described as being Croatian. I posted enough of videos above and you have not provided any evidence to dispute that. Also so that you know i have requested the admin who locked the Luka Sulic article to unlock it and make changes according to the evidence i have posted numerous times,and again which you are unable to dispute in any way,shape or form. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Odiriuss (talk • contribs) 12:28, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It seems like we disagree about what is a reliable source and that we won't be able to solve the dispute by ourselves. I think the Slovene-language sources are completely valid, contrary to the YouTubes that are one-sided and not detailed enough, and there are also other non-Slovene sources listed in the article Luka Šulić that is already locked due to an edit war there. --Eleassar my talk 13:23, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sure thing,all the articles all across the world,all the videos on youtube in which Luka had a chance to say he is Slovenian are false,and the Slovenian sources are correct? Does that not sound ridiculous to you? And now you start lying? There is not a single source outside of Slovenia in the Luka Sulic article that would prove your claims. Arguing with you is futile since you obviously cannot look at this in a objective way. I provided evidence to other admins and requested you be punished for your actions (because you cannot dispute my evidence) and that the 2cellos article be locked,as well that the Luka Sulic article be rewritten to represent the truth and locked afterward as well.Odiriuss (talk) 13:40, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I hate seeing banners at the top of articles, I have made the change and removed it. Good luck sorting out the rest of the issues! Number 57 15:55, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the article staying in this form,origin clearly state Croatia,birth place is a different thing. I will take Luka Sulic article to WP:DRN because facts simply cannot be denied. Thank you User:Number57 for your help. I would also like to ask you to lock the article in this form to prevent further vandalism. Thank you in advance! Odiriuss (talk) 16:15, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thank you. --Eleassar my talk 16:18, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You don't need to thank me,after i have proved my case in Luka Sulic article on WP:DRN i will request User:Number57 to state their nationalities in the biography part of the article,so there is no confusion what nationality they are. The article in this form at the moment is fine,seeing as the Luka Sulic article is locked and i don't want to make changes without approval,for which i will make my case on WP:DRN. Odiriuss (talk) 16:43, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine. The "thank you" words were intended for User:Number 57. --Eleassar my talk 16:48, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
For the sake of the record, there are at least four non-Slovene sources describing Šulić as Slovene cellist.[7][8][9][10] At least two sources say he is a Slovene-Croat.[11][12] In addition, there are a number of Slovenian sources, like [13] and those cited above, stating he is Slovene or Slovene-Croat. --Eleassar my talk 17:41, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I also think this is a good compromise; although I don't understand why the nationality of the duo can't/ shouldn't be mentioned in the intro. It's not a controversial issue: let's just write Croatian-Slovenian or Slovenian-Croatian and that's it. Why should anyone with a sane mind have a problem with that? Viator slovenicus (talk) 15:47, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Seems I was right all along Eleassar, and you actually were abusing your rights by making the article fit your perspective...Truth hurts, doesn't it? Odiriuss (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you have anything to say say it here Eleassar . Their official page http://www.2cellos.com/us/biography has been updated as has their official facebook page http://www.facebook.com/2cellos/info ,since Wikipedia is based on facts not fiction please refrain yourself from changing the article as i will be forced to report you. Odiriuss (talk)Odiriuss (talk) 08:52, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

what would really be something 2cellos x rammstein collaboration

croatian reliable sources

http://www.croatia.org/crown/articles/9735/1/Luka-Sulic-Croatian-cellist-wins-the-first-prize-in-Warszaw-Poland-2009.html

http://croatiantimes.com/news/Panorama/2011-12-13/23828/Croatian_cellists_guests_on_American_series_%27Glee%27

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/usa/music/Sudden-Internet-Fame-Helps-Croatian-Cellists-Snag-US-Record-Deal-127243893.html

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/uponsun/2011/06/welcome_to_the_jungle_as_perfo.php

http://croatiantimes.com/news/Panorama/2011-12-19/23966/_2Cellos_start_foundation_for_talented_musicians

Google searching for "Luka Sulik +Serbia" returns 0 hits. I think this is pretty conclusive. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:04, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anyone is disputing Serbia. Ishdarian 01:05, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't understand why anything is being disputed here. Sources clearly say he is Croatian-Slovenian and has dual citizenship (e.g., [14]). His father is/was Croatian and his mother Slovenian; the group 2Cellos (which this article is about!) was formed in Croatia. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 03:29, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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