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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Joe Bodacious (talk | contribs) at 14:12, 17 July 2014 (→‎RfC: should the article Paul Singer (businessman) mention that his company has been called a vulture fund?: Apparently I misunderstood how the formatting works). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Untitled

I just created this article on Feb 17 after watching democracy now. I have never started a page (as you can tell). Any help would be much appreciated. An article on Michael Sheehan and Debt Advisory International would also be helpful. Thanks to anyone helping get this article formatted right. Bestonadventures 17:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are several things wrong with this article, not the least of which is its unprofessional tone.128.36.52.135 06:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)David[reply]

I agree. The tone of this article really is unprofessional. It sounds biased and not at all like what one would expect from an encyclopedia.Lesbianadvocate (talk) 12:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't accuse the author of intentionally doing so, but this page reads like a PR puff piece, not an encyclopedia entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.84.102.34 (talk) 11:31, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cleaning up this page

Hello, given the comments here on the talk page, I wanted to step in and make some improvements to the page. As I have identified in both my username and in my userpage, I work in the financial services industry, have met a number of figures, including Paul Singer, and have done some work with his funds.

Obviously, I intend to abide by all Wikipedia rules, keeping in mind especially WP:BLP and WP:COI. However, there is clearly some basic low-hanging fruit that can improve this page dramatically and bring it up to wikipedia standards. I look forward to discussing the page with other people. Hedgefundfriend (talk) 14:20, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clean up?

Dear HedgeFundFriend

Is a 'hedge fund friend' the right person to "clean this page up"? Presently, as noted above, this article reads like a PR piece for Singer, and very much not like an objective biography. I am going to start the ball rolling with a few changes to try to get a more balanced tone. If you or someone else has the time and knowledge and objectivity then please continue. Harry "Snapper" Organs (talk) 05:25, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: I've just discovered that User:Hedgefundfriend was banned as a sockpuppet account -- further reason to regard his edits with suspicion. Cgingold (talk) 00:49, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just some links I came across, putting them here for reference later. I'll add some of these (though others are clearly not suitable; just for information). [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] The Sound and the Fury (talk) 17:41, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edits from an official source

Hello -- I am affiliated with the Paul E. Singer Foundation. We at the Foundation would like to make some edits to this page to clear up some factual inaccuracies and add context. We are happy to make these edits in conjunction with the Wikipedia community, and we wish to do so in a spirit of transparency, openness, and fairness. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SingerFoundation (talk • contribs) 23:56, 1 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, and thanks for your message and for disclosing your affiliation. If you haven't already, reading Wikipedia:Conflict of interest will be helpful. In terms of making edits to any pages affiliated with Paul Singer, I recommend that you read Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources as well. All additions/deletions of the article's content need to be accompanied by an independent, reliable source that verifies the information. I recommend that you post any suggested edits here on the talk page first in order to get consensus before editing the article itself. Please feel free to let me know if you have any questions. Thanks. Safehaven86 (talk) 00:48, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Safehaven. For now, I'm going to undo your edits to my edits to the Philanthropy section, because as I explained on your Talk page, the previous information was incorrect due to a confusion between the Paul E. Singer Foundation and the Paul and Emily Singer Family Foundation, which are distinct entities and not related to one another. I will post additional suggested edits for discussion when I have more time. SingerFoundation (talk) 02:02, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I checked the sources for the material you deleted, and they do mention the Paul Singer Foundation. While it is possible the sources themselves may be wrong, keep in mind Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. The facts stated in the article, with references to reliable sources, cannot be removed unless you can introduce some alternative compelling sources stating that the original sources were in error. Your edit stating that "Paul Singer is a committed philanthropist" is not in line with the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy. While Paul Singer may indeed be a committed philanthropist, that can be shown neutrally via discussion of his philanthropic activities, and not by simply making the claim. Thanks. Safehaven86 (talk) 03:41, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lee Fang

I removed the statement below because I don't see how ThinkProgress can be considered an RS.

Lee Fang, writing for the progressive political blog ThinkProgress, claimed that 'the rise of Singer’s political profile can be traced to his work as a top donor to pro-Bush character-assassination (sic) groups like the Swift Boat Veterans."

I am up for discussion on this and would like to know why it should be included on the page. Thanks! Meatsgains (talk) 21:41, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Romney and Delphi

I removed the Romney and Delphi section and its contents because this type of information does not belong on Paul Singer's personal page. Delphi was an investment that Elliott Management Corporation made. Thanks! Meatsgains (talk) 22:34, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored this section, as it is directly relevant to Singer, and not just his company. This reference in that section includes:

Romney's windfall from the bailout is directly tied to his relationship with Paul Singer, the billionaire hedge fund manager who donated $1 million to the Republican's presidential campaign in April.

This reference says:

Singer's fund bought, for twenty cents on the dollar, Delphi bonds -- lots of them. With Delphi under Singer's control, he threatened to shut it down unless the taxpayer bailed it out -- holding General Motors and Chrysler hostage, because if Delphi shut down, the companies would lack steering columns and other essential parts. After getting his way, and a $7.3 billion bailout from the public, Singer then closed all but five U.S. plants to move these operations and 25,000 jobs to China. Mitt Romney's investments in Singer's fund help make this loss of American jobs possible.

Since it's talking about Singer's direct involvement, and not just something the company did with or without his consent, the section should stay. Ruby Murray 07:28, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've also added the original Nation article in this reference that the two above used as a source, and it discusses Singer's direct involvement at length. Ruby Murray 08:42, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I understand you see this section as relevant and there are connections but Singer and Elliott Management Corporation are two different entities. Singer's page is a BLP and is independent from the corporation. I don't think that Elliott Management Corporation's actions should be reflected on Singer's page. The quote you pulled from the Huffington Post stated that the Romney's invested in "Singer's fund," which is EMC. Again, Singer's fund is not directly tied to Singer but rather the corporation.
The page already includes Singer's $1 million donation to the Republican's presidential campaign in support of Romney but I don't see how this automatically creates a "relationship" between the two. How close of a relationship do Singer and Romney really have? Singer has donated and fundraised for a number of different clubs, organizations, and individuals.
Yes, the sources you used are reliable but the the quote, “Mitt Romney's investments in Singer's fund help make this loss of American jobs possible” is not from a neutral point of view. It is a bias statement from a progressive contributor to the Huffington Post. Wouldn't you agree that this reads more like a tabloid than an encyclopedia? Let me know your thoughts. Meatsgains (talk) 23:46, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you that the Huffington Post quotes were both POV and unnecessary, so I've replaced them with a more neutral description. But Singer's personal involvement in the Delphi incident is detailed in the original Nation article, so the section is relevant for a BLP. If you think the section needs further improvements in wording for NPOV, then let's fix that, rather than delete the section. Ruby Murray 06:25, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To start off, the original Nation article is heavily slanted in opposition of Singer. Each time the hedge fund (EMC) is mentioned, the article intentionally tagged Singer's name to it to make him appear as the bad guy. I pulled a number of biased quotes from the Nation article that are specific in stating the corporation's involvement.
  • "One of the hedge funds profiting from that bailout—
$1.28 billion so far—is Elliott Management, directed by 
Paul Singer."
  • "Mitt Romney investing at least $1 million with Elliott"
  • "Singer’s Elliott bought Delphi debt"
  • "Elliott’s purchases cost just 20 cents on the dollar of their face value."
  • "the hedge funds, under Singer’s lead, used their bonds to buy up a controlling interest in Delphi’s stock."
  • "the Singer syndicate took Delphi public at $22 a share"
  • "Singer’s fund investors scored a gain of $904 million"
  • "Singer’s funds and partners, combining what they’ve sold and what they hold, have $1.29 billion in profits, about forty-four times their original investment."
  • "GM also forgave $2.5 billion in debt owed to it by Delphi, and $2 billion due from Singer and company upon Delphi’s exit from Chapter 11 bankruptcy."
  • "Delphi’s management—now effectively under the hedge funders’ control"
  • "After the hedge fund takeover of Delphi"
  • "The Romneys were invested with Elliott Management"
The article made the reader full aware of Singer's ties with the hedge fund but I couldn't find a quote that stated Singer was personally responsible; it was Elliott Management Corporation. The original article would say things like "Singer's fund", "the Singer syndicate", or "Singer and company" to make it appear to the reader that he was the only one responsible. I realize he is the director of EMC but it is the decisions of the corporation not solely his. I just don't see how the information about the hedge fund's involvement belongs on his personal page. Meatsgains (talk) 04:34, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Singer has more than just "ties with the hedge fund". He founded Elliott, and he's the CEO. References in the article state that Singer personally (not his company) donated $1 million to the Romney campaign. The Romneys invested in Singer's company. Singer's company and Romney made the mutually profitable deal described. We don't need verification that Singer was personally responsible: if he, as CEO of the company, wasn't aware of any of this, then that's just as significant in a bio. If you'd like to point out in that section that there's no evidence that Singer knew of the deal, I'd have no objection. Ruby Murray 09:44, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've added cites from Fortune, Forbes and the New York Post, which say essentially the same thing: Singer was responsible for the Delphi deal. Ruby Murray 10:23, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Does the "Romney and Delphi" section belong on Singer's personal page?

There is a clear consensus that the "Romney and Delphi" section should be removed from this page. However, as the section was entirely rewritten in the meantime by CMBJ (section now called "Delphi Automotive"), this issue may be moot. Anyone is free to remove the section at his own discretion. Armbrust The Homunculus 14:03, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the "Romney and Delphi" section be removed? Meatsgains (talk) 05:19, 21 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

  • Support keeping the section.
  • Oppose, it does not belong on a BLP. Meatsgains (talk) 05:19, 21 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This information could belong in a BLP if it was well sourced. However, it appears that it relies on a single source (Nation) with a clear POV. Rather than indicate a well-established relationship between Singer and Romney, the source uses innuendo and inference to create this linkage. Singer's fund and Singer the individual are two separate and distinct entities. One possible solution is to have a section on EMC and, within the body of that section, briefly mention some of its high profile investments. Beyond that, we begin to overreach the scope of a BLP. Factchecker25 (talk) 13:35, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Singer and EMC are completely independent from each other when it comes to a BLP. Why is there a section on the Romney Delphi deal on his personal page but none of EMC's other deals? Seems like there is a motive behind adding this information to his personal page. Meatsgains (talk) 05:19, 21 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Making the claim that Singer had a "reputation for strong-arming his way to profit" and not including examples of his other investment endeavors violates WP:POV and should be removed from the article (unless additional sources are available to balance the POV of the paragraph.) Comatmebro ~Come at me~ 17:43, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Threaded discussion

  • Singer had knowledge of Elliott Management Corporation's deal but that isn't cause to put it in his page. I'm sure he has knowledge of every deal that comes through EMC. Does that mean that every deal he's ever known belongs on his page? I don't think so. Let me hear your thoughts. Meatsgains (talk) 05:19, 21 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • An encyclopedic article is not the place to make determinations regarding what a person knew or did not know as this is pure conjecture. The issue is whether a specific deal undertaken by a company with which the subject of a BLP is associated should be given undue weight in the BLP. It seems the consensus view is that it should not as it violates NPOV. Factchecker25 (talk) 04:07, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The bottom line here, at least from what I'm seeing, is that this critical commentary is at minimum misplaced. There may be merit to describing it somewhere in Romney's biography since he was the primary subject of discussion, but in Singer's case, there is not enough weight to consider it worthy of more than, at most, a mention in passing at this time.   — C M B J   04:12, 5 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Remove POV content from a BLP"?

Would the person who made this edit please explain his or her rationale? Note that the deleted material is sourced to the New York Times and the Guardian, two sources that are likely to hold up well if their reliability is disputed. Also you might want to take a look at WP:PUBLICFIGURE. Joe Bodacious (talk) 18:47, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

While I respectfully agree that yes, the information is properly sourced to the New York Times and the Guardian, I'd have to disagree with the use of the term "vulture capitalist". Using this term is both a violation of WP:BLP and WP:NPOV. Your edits seem to put an unnecessary, negative spin on the page. A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject. By adding "vulture capitalist", the article reads much more like a tabloid rather than an encyclopedia, wouldn't you agree?
Also, nowhere in this source does it state that "Singer has said that he hopes to elect officials who will oppose government regulation of finance." I don't doubt the legitimacy behind this claim, but the article does not explicitly make this bold statement. We must be careful to not make such assumptions. Best, Meatsgains (talk) 07:54, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
For some reason you have linked to page 2 of the NYT article. In the opening paragraphs, on page 1, it says:
Mr. Singer, professorial and soft-spoken, used a gathering of business and government leaders at the conservative Manhattan Institute to lash out at “indiscriminate attacks by political leaders against anything that moves in the world of finance.” Government efforts to “take over and run” the economy through more regulations, he warned, threatened to ruin the United States’ standing as the world leader in finance.
As the head of a $17 billion hedge fund, Mr. Singer, a self-described Barry Goldwater conservative who is 66, is using his financial might to try to change those policies. He has become one of the biggest bankrollers of Republican causes, giving more than $4 million of his money and raising millions more through fund-raisers he hosts for like-minded candidates who often share his distaste for what they view as governmental over-meddling in the financial industry.
If you would like to propose an alternate wording, I'm fine with that. But nowhere in NPOV or BLP does is say to exclude information that is deemed by an editor to be "negative." It does say that if must be properly sourced and not given undue weight. BLP says explicitly, "If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." Here are some additional source citations on the connection of Singer to vulture funds:
Financial Times: "Mr Singer chafes at the term “vulture fund”. (Good quote, should go in article.)
Huffington Post: editorial by the foreign minister of Argentina, who says, "Paul Singer could be branded as the inventor of vulture funds." (Also should go in article.)
The Hindu
Bloomberg
Tagesschau
USA Today
Mr. Singer's connection to vulture funds ("vulture capitalist" was your term, not mine) is probably his single most notable quality. Joe Bodacious (talk) 13:21, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The term vulture fund is a pejorative. It is a loaded word that suggests strong disapproval and is slang used by business insiders. Words or phrases such as these are in clear violation of WP:TONE. For example, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act isn't referred to as Obamacare throughout the article because Obamacare has a negative connotation tied to it. It is the same situation. Best, Meatsgains (talk) 20:39, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That might be an argument for putting "vulture fund" in scare quotes, but not for eliminating it from the article, for the simple reason that all the sources I provided use the term "vulture fund" (what is the term you would prefer? Is there actually any less pejorative term for this specific practice? It's no longer just for "business insiders" -- it's being debated all over the planet.) And as the Argentina crisis unfolds, you are going to see those sources multiply, and Mr. Singer is going to quickly become much better known than he presently is. Again, to quote WP:BLP, "If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." If you like, I can move this discussion to the BLP noticeboard. But I don't think your unusual interpretation of policy will gain much traction there. Joe Bodacious (talk) 20:52, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, of course all the sources you provided call it a vulture fund because you made sure to find the sources that call it that. There are plenty of articles out there [8][9] calling NML Capital, Elliott Management, and all the others, hedge funds. (I can provide more sources, if you need me too). In this article, Newsweek calls Elliott Management a "multibillion-dollar New York hedge fund." Argentina’s president, Cristina Kirchner, is the one who calls them a "vulture fund" obviously in spite of the Supreme Court's recent ruling. It is not the source calling them a vulture fund.
There is no arguing that "vulture fund" is a pejorative. It is very misleading and does not belong on Singer's personal page. Even this article by the Huffington Post states that it "is highly misleading" Below is a quote from the article:
Although the creditors are often referred to as "vultures," the pejorative is highly misleading. They are bondholders with the law on their side, seeking nothing more than repayment of debts voluntarily entered into by Argentina. Elliot Management, for example, is a multi-billion operation that manages university endowments and pension funds.
Best, Meatsgains (talk) 09:04, 2 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Hedge fund" is a far more general term, which embraces a wide array of speculative activities. If there were only one or two sources that used the term "vulture fund" to describe NML Capital, there might be an argument for exclusion, but that is not the case (WP:PUBLICFIGURE says "If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out.) Meatgains, you are simply arguing that any commentary on Mr. Singer's activities that might be considered "negative" must be kept out of the article at all costs, and your argument does not jibe with Wikipedia policy. Therefore, I will re-add the material after I have carefully re-formulated it based on all the new sources. If you want to continue this dispute you may then revert it, and I'll take it to one of the noticeboards. Joe Bodacious (talk) 13:47, 2 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In this case, there are no speculative activities when using the term "hedge funds" as NML's acttions are explicitly described multiple times throughout Singer's page.
There are just as many, if not more, articles citing NML as a "hedge fund" so that argument is moot (as stated before, I can find them if you would like me to). Meatsgains (talk) 19:54, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think there is a basic misunderstanding here of the NPOV policy. It means that if numerous reliable sources take one view, and numerous other reliable sources take a different view, we include both views. It doesn't mean "exclude the view you don't like." Joe Bodacious (talk) 03:59, 5 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
FYI I have opened a discussion at WP:BLPN#Paul Singer (businessman). Joe Bodacious (talk) 22:57, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Request for comment

RfC: should the article Paul Singer (businessman) mention that his company has been called a vulture fund?

Is it appropriate under Wikipedia policy to mention that Singer's company, NML Capital Limited, is widely described as a Vulture fund in reliable sources? Joe Bodacious (talk) 17:45, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Threaded discussion

The BLP policy says the following: In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out. Here is a partial listing of reliable third-party sources which have describe NML Capital as a "vulture fund":

New York Times
The Guardian
Financial Times
Huffington Post
The Hindu
Bloomberg
Tagesschau
USA Today
New York Post
Forbes
Buenos Aires Herald
Lebanon Daily News
Global Post
Epoch Times

Joe Bodacious (talk) 17:53, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I also provided a partial list of reliable third party sources calling the term "vulture fund" a misleading, derogatory, pejorative.

Vulture fund's own article states that "The term is used to criticize the fund for strategically profiting off of debtors that are in financial distress." It is non-encyclopedic and not suitable for a BLP. Meatsgains (talk) 05:59, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your list. Under NPOV, both viewpoints should be included, in relative proportion to how they appear in reliable sources. Joe Bodacious (talk) 06:05, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Meatsgains, could you please quote the precise section of policy which you believe would be breached by including this material? Jonathan A Jones (talk) 06:32, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Adding the term vulture fund falls under the guideline list of What Wikipedia is not and "Information that falls under any guideline listed under What Wikipedia is not or several other Wikipedia guidelines and has been added to an article can be boldly removed." Adding the term vulture fund falls under the specific guideline WP:INAPPROPRIATE, which states that "Text that is intended to attack or disparage the subject. For example, if something derogatory is found in an article about a person using a pejorative term against that person's ethnicity, it shall be promptly removed." Meatsgains (talk) 10:04, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note that WP:INAPPROPRIATE is an essay, not policy, and in any event "vulture fund" is not a "pejorative term against [a] person's ethnicity". With regard to What Wikipedia is not please identify which section you believe applies. For example, do you believe that WP:NOTCENSORED supports your position? Or are you thinking of some other section? Jonathan A Jones (talk) 10:12, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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