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Some support

	Some support
	Keep calm and carry on. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:11, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Request for mediation rejected

The request for formal mediation concerning Anti-Hinduism, to which you were listed as a party, has been declined. To read an explanation by the Mediation Committee for the rejection of this request, see the mediation request page, which will be deleted by an administrator after a reasonable time. Please direct questions relating to this request to the Chairman of the Committee, or to the mailing list. For more information on forms of dispute resolution, other than formal mediation, that are available, see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution.

For the Mediation Committee, Sunray (talk) 23:56, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(Delivered by MediationBot, on behalf of the Mediation Committee.)

Which is it?

In this book it states that "Mogadishu was reorganized to house more than 50,000 newly arrived Italians" but than goes on to say that "Mogadishu had a population of about 30,000 Somalis and 20,000 Italians". I am not exactly sure which number is right. As of now, I believe that 50,000 Italians did arrive to Mogadishu, but only 20,000 stayed and the 30,000 went to other cites. Why do these number very so much? There's a lot of info on the Italians in Eritrea and constancy in the numbers of how many that lived there. But for Somalia, there prescence was documrented just no constancy in how many were there.

There are also 4,000 Italian immigrants according to Ethnologue currently living in Somalia,[1] but just before that it states that "all of the people from India and Italy have left".

Also, do you know where I can view this book (Tripodi, Paolo, "The Colonial Legacy in Somalia")? AcidSnow (talk) 19:46, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The point of arrival is not necessarily the same as the place of settlement. The Villaggio Duca degli Abruzzi was another place that many of the Italian settlers later moved to, as was Genale. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 15:49, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I did some more searching using specific terms and I have found some more numbers regarding these figure. Anyways, do you know how I can view the book? AcidSnow (talk) 16:20, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know where you can view the book. At any rate, Donati doesn't mention "meticci" nor do Poddar et al. discuss Mussolini's law vis-a-vis Italian Somaliland [2]. Italian also was not the main language used in higher education during the Somali Democratic Republic. In fact, to ensure and safeguard the primacy of the Somali language, the Supreme Revolutionary Council during its tenure officially prohibited the borrowing and usage of Italian and English terms. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 17:11, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Donati does mention how they were called "meticci" (see here) including how they were able to obtain Italian citizenship. As for "Poddar et al", who is that? If your referring to Michael B. Lentakis, he does mention it in that book because its the wrong link (my bad); his book on "Ethiopia: A View from Within" is the one I was referring to (see here). Other than how I gave you a wrong link I dont see why you removed the whole thing. AcidSnow (talk) 17:36, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I did see Donati; it doesn't mention "meticci" nor does the closed link above. The other link also pointed to the wrong book. At any rate, the law that Lentakis alludes to pertains to Ethiopia, not Italian Somaliland or Eritrea. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 17:59, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the late replay, Middayexpress. I have been quiet busy lately. Anyways, what exactly do you see for the Donati link since I have highlighted part of the sentence? If your unable to view the link, then read this; "meticcis" are clearly defined as people of Italian and Somali decent. As for the law, its true that Lentakis does mention Ethiopia, but why would he start discussing how it would effect the Italians in Somalia and Eritrea if it would not? In Roy Patemans Eritrea: Even the Stones are Burning, he clearly states that it was also implemented in Somaliland and Eritrea. AcidSnow (talk) 21:27, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No prob. "Meticci" refers to mixed individuals in general. Please see page 323 here for the official system used in Italian Somaliland. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 14:01, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What exactly am I post to see? Most of the document discuss Somali Bantus and only mentions the Italians a few times. My bad on the "clearly defined", I meant that people of Somali and Italian decent were called "meticci". There's also a Somali word these which is "missoni" (or something like that), but I don't have the link at the moment to give. Anyways, you did not give a response to the other part of my previous reply. AcidSnow (talk) 19:28, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I did reply to that as well. "Meticci" refers to mixed individuals in general, not just those of Somali and Italian ancestry. It is the Italian equivalent of the French "métis" (see métis). For the rest, please see the very bottom of the aforementioned page for the system used in Italian Somaliland. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 16:22, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

""Meticci" refers to...", yes I know now. I have already corrected myself. As for the page your previously mentioned, I repeat its all about Bantus. Is there something wrong with the sources I have provided? AcidSnow (talk) 21:58, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there is a problem. Since "meticci" refers to mixed individuals in general, there's no point in suggesting that it just referred to those of Somali and Italian ancestry. Also note that the bill Mussolini passed actually parallels the law that the Somali Republic's civilian government itself adopted upon independence ("any woman citizen who marries an alien loses her Somali citizenship if, by her marriage, she acquires her husband's citizenship"; see Paolo Contini (1969) [3]). As for the link, the page is not all about Bantus; see the footnote there on the official system in Italian Somaliland. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 14:40, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And another thing, Rome is not Mogadishu's sister city (the link alludes to a novel/fiction). Almaty/Alma-Ata and Istanbul are its actual sister cities. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 15:13, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There likewise doesn't appear to be any figure indicated for the number of Dervish troops [4]. Middayexpress (talk) 15:28, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"just referred to ...", yes I believe we have already established that. I have provided you with other links that dont suggest it is an exclusive term. There's even "misioni" in Somali which exclusively refers to these types of people, though I dont remember were I found it. "the bill Mussolini passed....", so why can't it be included in the article? As for your page 323 in the link you gave me, it is all about Bantus. For the footnote, please see bellow:

"1 Rachel Swarns, "Africa's Lost Tribe Discovers American Way," New York Times (10 March 2003). 2 No reliable census figures exist on Somalia; population estimates by region and by clan and ethnic group are even more unreliable and subject to gross exaggeration for political purposes. The five percent figure suggested here is not derived from a census, but is only a "best guess" approximation based on the author's years of fieldwork in Somalia and the opinions of other long-time observers. If Somalia's total population is somewhere near seven million people - again a consensus figure accepted in most publications - then the 5% estimate offered here would amount to a total Bantu population of about 350,000. Given the concentrations of Bantu along the relatively densely populated Jubba and Shabelle river valleys, and the large Bantu populations which have arrived in Mogadishu and Kismayo as internally displaced persons, these figures seem reasonable, but should taken only for what they are - a best guess. Though demographics have obviously changed since the colonial era, a colonial census of Italian Somalia (which would obviously not have included the population of British Somaliland) in 1935 concluded that 6.2% of the population was "Negroid groups" a figure which is not far off the estimate given above. See Istitutocentrale di sta- tistica, VII censimento générale délia populazione V (Rome, 1935)"

I dont see any mention of a system. AcidSnow (talk) 17:06, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"These types of people...". lol At any rate, there is no dedicated Somali word for "Somali-Italian" mixes. What I can tell you is that the Somali parent in such unions was very rarely from a noble clan because marriage is a very involved process among the upper caste groups wherein the entire extended family is involved. For the demographic system in use in Italian Somaliland, see the phrase above that begins "though demographics". Middayexpress (talk) 14:39, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As for the Dervish Army, I have no Idea what happened to my link. I found it using my phone (forr some reason I am able to view more pages then one can using a computer), but when I linked it to my computer I became unable to view it. Here's a link for 15,000 in 1902 (page: 113) and 20,000 in 1903 (page: 127). As for the twin cities, my bad once again. AcidSnow (talk) 17:06, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The first link says nothing about 15,000 troops in 1902 [5]. For its part, the second link says that "in 1903-04, one of the encounters against the Mullah was said to have consisted of 10,000 British troops accompanied by 15,000 allied Ethiopian troops, and that the Dervish force was 20,000 men, with 8,000 of them cavalry" [6]. That's 25,000 British/Ethiopian troops vs. 20,000 Dervish troops, quite different from what you wrote. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 14:39, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"The first link says nothing about 15,000 troops in 1902", are you reading anything? The book clearly states, "By the time our second expedition was launched in June 1902 his following was estimated at 15,000"!

"quite different from what you wrote...", not at all since my refs do support what I have said.

This is about our other discussion which never ended: "the phrase above that begins "though demographics"", are you messing with me?!?!?! It clearly states "Negroid groups" which is a reference to Bantus -_-! As for the "dedicated Somali word", you better hope I dont find that link again because I would love to prove you wrong as of now. AcidSnow (talk) 18:13, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Calm down. lol If only 6% of the population in Italian Somaliland consisted of "Negroid groups" according to the colonial authorities, it obviously follows that the remaining 94% consisted of "non-Negroid groups". That is the territorial system I was referring to. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 15:40, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please see here. AcidSnow (talk) 16:04, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I see the 15,000 soldier figure for 1902, but the link was incorrect [7]. The passage in full reads: "By the time our second expedition was launched in June 1902, his following was estimated at 15,000, of whom 12,000 were said to be mounted and 1500 armed with rifles. Against this, our Expeditionary Force consisted of some 2000 rifles, partly King's African Rifles, but principally locally-enlisted and locally-trained Somalis." Again, quite a different context here as well since it's not so much alluding to the Dervishes vs. the British, but rather the Dervishes vs. Somali colonial troops. Middayexpress (talk) 16:31, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What? All I said was how big his army was...... AcidSnow (talk) 21:01, 27 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Anyways, Middayexpress, what's wrong with adding the discriminatory laws that had no affect on the Italians and Somalis and the mixed Italian Somalis?

I have found many books that stated that there was no racism towards the Somalis from the Italians despite Mussolinis attempt. AcidSnow (talk) 19:34, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's rather complex. Mussolini actually didn't have a single vision; he was idealogically amorphous. For instance, he once bragged that he would unite the Somali territories, including the occupied areas. So he regarded himself as a savior of sorts. Middayexpress (talk) 14:40, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I see. If we do add it then it well state, "despite the laws" instead of Mussolini. AcidSnow (talk) 14:45, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dervish State

Should there be a page about the Somali Resistance Movement or should all of this be included in the Somaliland Campaign? The page mostly discuses things that involved Britain and not Italy. AcidSnow (talk) 21:24, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi AcidSnow. The Somaliland Campaign is on the Dervish State's resistance movement in British Somaliland. There wasn't anything comparable to that two decade-long struggle in Italian Somaliland because the ruling Majeerteen Sultanate and Sultanate of Hobyo in the northeast were assured non-interference through treaties they had signed with Italy. Direct rule thus only occurred in central and southern Somalia, where there were no similar local polities in place. By consequence, the central/southern resistance struggle is largely covered on the Sheikh Hassan Barsane page. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 21:32, 12 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's not necessarily true since Hassans forces routinely fought the Italians in Italian Somaliland and so had other Somali resistance groups; which included the Sultans when they were told to step down. As for the Sheikh Hassan Barsane page, its poorly sourced (one source) and badly laid out. I will quickly fix the lay out shortly.

EDIT: It does not appear to be a lot of info on this man (there's even less that I can access). AcidSnow (talk) 23:01, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Direct rule indeed only occurred in the south, where there were no comparable sultanates in place ("Italian rule was direct except in the northern protectorates of Italian Somaliland, where treaties had been signed with the sultans: in the southern part the clans were forcibly subdued and colonized" [8]). Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 14:40, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's right, these were not all under one movement, such as Dervish in the north, but they all had the same goal. Should we make a single article covering all of these and if there are major ones they will also obtain their own article? AcidSnow (talk) 18:27, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Majeerteen Sultanate's and Sultanate of Hobyo's colonial relations are already discussed on their respective pages. The southern struggle is covered on Sheikh Barsane's page. Middayexpress (talk) 15:40, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

sigh*, fine. I will wait to see if I can find enough info for each of them to connect them to one article. AcidSnow (talk) 15:59, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No need. They are already covered, as I wrote. Middayexpress (talk) 16:20, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

They barley do Middayexpress, hence why I stated that I would expanded them. AcidSnow (talk) 20:59, 27 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Trust Territory, etc.

Hi AcidSnow. "Mongobay" is a personal website, not a reliable source. Both Somalis and Italians were also allowed to establish parties under the British military administration. The largest such party was obviously the SYL, not the HDM. The election database also doesn't claim that the HDM was the largest [9]; so insinuating that it was is undue and misleading. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 14:39, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Middayexpress. I never said that, throughout the paragraph I am talking about Italian supported parties not parties in general. You realize that I can read, right? As for "Mongobay", all the info they have is from the "Library of Congress", but I am unable to use them because they dont have permanent links. I will go and try to find a new link now. AcidSnow (talk) 15:30, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

SYL and HDM were actually both nationalist; especially the former. Middayexpress (talk) 15:40, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The HDM was not originally nationalistic like the SYL was. They were originally Pro-Italian rule, but would later change that to another 30 years of Italian rule; which is completely different from the SYL that wanted 0 more years. AcidSnow (talk) 15:57, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The HDM had a primarily Rahanweyn/Digil and Mirifle. It wasn't pro-Italian, though it did receive some Italian funding. The party actually in most points agreed with the SYL's platform, and became the opposition from the right [10]. Middayexpress (talk) 16:20, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

List

Hi AcidSnow. The RfC finally expired, and an administrator erroneously closed it in favor of the page move when there was clearly no consensus for it (five votes for the proposal vs. five votes against it). Despite this, one of the accounts that supported the move has attempted to edit the list and here as well in that direction. I've left a detailed explanation of the situation here. Your input there would be appreciated. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 15:40, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. AcidSnow (talk) 15:58, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've started a formal move review of the RfC. Your input there would be appreciated. Whatever the outcome, I'll start drafting a proposal for a long overdue, dedicated WP:RACES policy. The new policy will gather in one place all of the various existing policy clauses on "race", as well as several new clauses. I'll link you first to the draft sub-page so that you may edit it yourself as needed before I formally submit it for evaluation. Best, Middayexpress (talk) 15:31, 21 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please have a look at the page itself [11]? There's an anonymous ip that's attempting to capitalize on the bad close, even now that the RfC is officially under review. Best, Middayexpress (talk) 16:01, 21 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, it's up. Cheers, Middayexpress (talk) 15:19, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry man, I have been really busy theses past few days. As for the ip, it is possible its the same guy from before. For your policy, there is not much I can add since I don't much on policy making, but judging how the discussion has gone so far it looks like its going in the right direction. Finally, as for the discussion on the list I have supported an "overturn". If you need anything dont hesitate to ask. AcidSnow (talk) 23:28, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No prob. The move review ended; the closing admin indicated that there was "no consensus", meaning that there is no consensus on the original discussion itself ("No consensus. Both sides have made valid points about both the closure and the arguments in the original discussion itself"). Per WP:MR, this verdict can mean either essentially the same thing as "endorse close" or instead "relist". In this case, it clearly means "relist" since the admin explicitly recommended that we start a centralised discussion covering all such articles in order to sensibly conclude this issue ("I would suggest a centralised discussion that covers all those articles would be the best route of coming to a sensible conclusion on this issue"). However, I believe adoption of the WP:RACE guideline should first be prioritized, as that will greatly facilitate that centralised discussion. Your input there would be appreciated. Best, Middayexpress (talk) 19:38, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the anonymous ip has again reverted on the page despite the no-consensus close. He has also in the process violated 3RR. Could you please have a look? Best, Middayexpress (talk) 19:38, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

List of cities in Somalia

Hi AcidSnow, I saw your remark "wtf, most of these are not cities" on the revision history page of that article. I agree! Many are villages or not even populated places at all. I started a cleanup, maybe you could help. In fact, a large number of Somalia geography stubs contain serious errors and should be revised. I try to do so from time to time, but it's an uphill battle. Cheers, Loranchet (talk) 20:03, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Map

Hi AcidSnow. I would fix the map, but I unfortunately don't at the moment have the right graphics software. The "Berbers" therein are the non-Semitic speaking Afro-Asiatic groups inhabiting Northeast Africa. Some were thus also found in Egypt/Sudan i.e. the Beja. At any rate, File:Somalia map states regions districts.png also needs fixing after the recent military offensives. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 17:12, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have a couple of suggestions for fixing the map. One is to bring it into an AutoCad 360 desktop for collaboration. You can screen capture one or more Google Map images with the information from the Periplus such as place names, degrees, distances to the next place. To cover the Red Sea and Somalia you might end up sandboxing 30 places as 5 or 10 maps depending on how zoomed in you wanted to get. Then when you have them all clipped and cropped to suit you would import them into an Autocad drawing on an underlay layer or layers, probably one for each screen capture and draw over them. You have to do that because Wikipedia doesn't consider screen captures your work. Eventually you end up with an outline of the Red Sea and Gulf with the place names the degrees and distances captioned with the relevant lines from the Periplus. Then you can copy clip or crop from that whatever close ups you need and put them into a series of linked articles on each place using quotes from teh Periplus that locate it, put in various references to the place from other historic sources and invite whomever you want to collaboratively edit the map in the AutoCad 360 desktop.142.0.102.234 (talk) 00:07, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Deleting Christianity from Kenyan history

Hi, kenya wasn't called kenya in the 15th c. but the article mentions events there at this time. So why remove the history prior to the 15th c? There is obviously a lot of effort going into this whitewashing of Kenyan history. Sad but inevitable that Wikipedia is used in this way.86.168.238.55 (talk) 20:47, 31 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What does Abyssinia have to do with Kenya? AcidSnow (talk) 03:07, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Periplus of the Erythraean Sea

See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Rktect and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Rktect/Archive. Dougweller (talk) 10:08, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Middayexpress has agreed to me rolling back his edits, but there is still a section where you were the last editor. How do you feel about me removing it? Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 17:45, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Remove it I have no idea what he was talking about. It's best not to confuse others as well. Thanks! AcidSnow (talk) 19:22, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done and thanks. We also shouldn't be letting banned editors have a platform here. Dougweller (talk) 09:46, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Re:Macro-Somali languages

Why is Somali classified on Wikipedia as part of the Macro-Somali languages? Only one source that is listed says it is will other more will know sources put it in another branch from Rendille, Aweer, and Baiso. So why is it listed as that on the classification section. But the dialects of Somali go: Cushitic-> East-> Somali-> Dialect. Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AcidSnow (talk • contribs) 04:42, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi AcidSnow. That's a good question. The parameters here seem to be between "Omo-Tana", and "Macro-Somali" as a subgrouping of that. In truth, "Omo-Tana" itself is likely not a valid linguistic grouping since it is tied to the southern-origin theory for Proto-Cushitic. This hypothesis was popularized by the anthropologist Herbert Lewis and historian E.R. Turton during the late 1960s i.e. by non-linguists. It stipulates that Proto-Cushitic differentiated in the vicinity of the Omo Valley and Lake Tana ("Omo-Tana"), prior to the entry of Bantu and Nilo-Saharan speakers into the region. The various major Cushitic proto-languages would then later have expanded from there, with the East, Central and North Cushitic languages moving northward into the Horn, and the South Cushitic languages moving further south into the Great Lakes. Since around the late 1990s, this southern-origin hypothesis has fallen into disfavour, as it contradicts and/or overlooks most other lines of evidence. Among the latter are the fact that most Cushitic sub-branches are today concentrated in the Horn (East, Central and North Cushitic), not south of it (only South Cushitic is); the Cushitic language that has retained the most archaic features is Beja/North Cushitic, which is spoken much farther north in the Sudan-Egypt border area; the earliest pastoral rock art in eastern Africa is not found in the southern Ethiopia/northern Kenya area, but instead in the northern Somalia/Djibouti/Eritrea area (e.g. at Laas Gaal and Dhambalin, which contain the earliest examples of domesticated sheep, camels and even horses; camels and horses are in fact still mainly restricted to the Horn and points further north); oral traditions on the oldest population movements of Cushitic speakers mainly assert northward-to-southward migrations; the Modern South Arabian languages have a Cushitic substratum, which suggests that Cushitic speakers once inhabited the area alongside Semitic speakers. The linguist Mohamed Diriye Abdullahi discusses some of the other reasons why the traditional northern point of origin of Cushitic is most probable (c.f. [12]). Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 13:29, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the response! Would the classifactions on wiki be changed or left alone? Also would the dialects of Somali which are Jiido, Dabarre, Garre and Tunni be considered their own language? I hard that in some cases they are but other times not. If it is then would its speakers be in their own Ethnic group?

Along with Maay, those tongues are actually all separate Cushitic languages. They have a different sentence structure and phonology from Somali. They also present similarities with Oromo that are not found in mainstream Somali. Chief among these is their lack of pharyngeal sounds, features which by contrast typify Somali. Abdullahi touches on this. This is why those languages are noted as separate Afro-Asiatic languages on their respective pages. The original speakers of those languages have largely been assimilated into the Rahanweyn (Digil and Mirifle) clan confederation, which is why those tongues are often referred to as Digil and Mirifle languages. Cheers, Middayexpress (talk) 13:55, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please also note that Benadiris are partially descended from recent Yemeni/Omani migrants. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 13:55, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But Garre, Jiddu, Maay, and Tunni are listed as languages/dialects under the category of "Somali". Are the speakers of these languages /dialects not ethnic Somalis? This kind of takes a big blow to how people say Somalis are untied linguistically etc. As god the Rendille people they are sometimes classifed as "Somaloid people" which makes no sense since their language is not closely related to Somali and are not even genticly related to Somalis. What do you make of this? Also what are the most related ethnic group to the Somalis, Midday? AcidSnow (talk) 19:31, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Mohamed Diriye Abdullahi touches on Maay and the other Rahanweyn/Digil and Mirifle varieties [13]. Middayexpress (talk) 14:40, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

June 2014

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Template State

Hi AcidSnow. Thanks for this. Per the agreement here, can you help me standardize this template for Somaliland, Jubaland, and Somalia's other constituent federal states as well? Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 20:37, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I will do them soon. I believe we should make a spefic page discussing this like the Template:Infobox German state. As for the ethnicity I belive we should include Somali as what is done with the States of India. AcidSnow (talk) 21:18, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The infobox was patterned after those on the Indian federal states (e.g. Kerala), which use the generic Template:Infobox state. A dedicated template for the Somali federal states as on the German federal states could indeed also work, though. Best, Middayexpress (talk) 22:49, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

They look good so far; all that's left is Jubaland. This is somewhat offttopic but do you think federalism is working in Somalia? AcidSnow (talk) 22:53, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the federalism system is being finalized. Also, there's the Galmudug temp as well. Middayexpress (talk) 00:14, 2 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I would really like to hear your opinion on it though. If you don't want to I understand, but could you state that though? AcidSnow (talk) 00:59, 2 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I sorta just did, no? Anyway, it seems a user prefers the country template for Somaliland, though it of course is legally an autonomous region of Somalia. It would appear that he wasn't aware of the agreement to standardize the state template aross all of the constituent federal states, so I linked him to it. If he still objects, we'll have to re-standardize the country template for Puntland so that all of the federal states use the same template again. We'll then have to code a standalone federal state template as on the German federal state temp. Middayexpress (talk) 16:22, 2 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ethio-Somali

Do you understand what these charts are saying? I tried to interpret it one my own but I was unable to do to the many charts shown. Is in one chart it states that the Amhara, Tigray, and even the Oromo have far more Semitic admixture then the Somalis and that Somalis also have more Nilo admixture then the rest? In another it zstates that somalis still have more Nilo admixture despite living farther away from them then the rest. Then there's one I see as more realistic with all ethnic groups having closely the same amount of admixture; though it still has outrages amounts of Nilo in all groups. Also why does it have Ethiopian Somalis as a diffrent group and what on earth is Ethiopic?!?! AcidSnow (talk) 18:57, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Basically, the researchers identified a new non-African autosomal DNA component. This non-African component is most common today among Afroasiatic-speaking populations in the Horn, especially ethnic Somalis. It represents the majority of ancestry in both the region's main Cushitic and Semitic speaking groups (Somali, Amhara, Oromo, Tigray, etc.). There's also some moderate secondary Sub-Saharan admixture. See Table 2 [14]; also have a look at Afroasiatic Urheimat. Cheers, Middayexpress (talk) 19:21, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is the new one the "Etho-Somali" or the "Ethiopic"? Which map is most actuate for genetic make up? Also forgive me for my grammar I was in a rush. AcidSnow (talk) 19:53, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As the abstract indicates, the Ethio-Somali component is a non-African component. This is based on actual divergence analysis, which indicates that the component is most closely related/least divergent from the Maghrebi non-African component (Table 4 [15]). It is estimated to have diverged from all other non-African ancestries at least 23,000 years ago. On this basis, the researchers suggest that the original Ethio-Somali carrying population(s) probably arrived in the pre-agricultural period from the Near East, having crossed over into the Nile Valley via the Sinai peninsula. The population then likely split into two branches, with one group heading westward toward the Maghreb and the other moving south into the Horn, introducing the Afroasiatic languages to both areas. The Ethio-Somali population would thereafter have encountered a local population carrying the Ethiopic African component. This Ethiopic population is today best represented by the Ari ironworkers, as can be seen on Table 2. By contrast, ethnic Somalis have the highest frequencies of the Ethio-Somali non-African component. Amhara, Tigray and other Habesha groups have around the same overall makeup as Somalis; however, they differ by having a bit less of the Ethio-Somali non-African component and in its place more of the Arabian non-African component. The presence of a Nilo-Saharan secondary African admixture element in turn serves as further confirmation that the Ethio-Somali non-African population indeed likely migrated down from in or near the Sinai. Cheers, Middayexpress (talk) 20:53, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It would appear that the Omotic are the Ethiopic since they have the highest percentage. This would also make since the Oromo had absorbed Omotic groups as well as other ethnic groups surrounding them which would explain their high percentage and why Somalis have the least. So map chart C-12 on page 4 is the most accurate representation of the region? If no, could you explain charts C-10-12? If yes, would this mean that Somalis are more Niloitic than Semitic? Thanks for clarifying so far.

Sorry, I just relooked at Table 2, does it not show Arabian and Eurasian admixture because its less than 5%? That's weird because other studies have stated that Somalis are 5% Arabian and 10% Eurasian. The percentage only add up to 86%, if we add the other study we get 101%. What do you think? AcidSnow (talk) 21:19, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In a nutshell, what it suggests is that a) Somalis, Amhara, Oromo, Tigray, etc. are descended from an Afro-Asiatic-speaking population that carried the Ethio-Somali non-African component, b) ethnic Somalis have the highest frequencies today of that component (probably due to isolation and endogamy), while Habesha have a bit less of it and instead more of the Arabian non-African component due to later periods of contact with Sabaeans/Himyarites, c) the Ethiopic and Nilo-Saharan secondary African admixture elements are basically clues as to where the Ethio-Somali non-African population migrated from and toward. Evidently, that dispersal area was in or near the Sinai like Hodgson et al. suggest. This supports their assertion that the Ethio-Somali non-African component was introduced from the Near East specifically via the Sinai rather than via the Bab el Mandeb. This is also supported by the widespread presence of the E1b1b haplogroup's V32 sub-clade in the Horn, a lineage that is believed to have originated in the southern Egypt area or thereabouts. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 21:46, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Send a message to this organization so they can put your last message at the beginning of the pdf! That was much easier to understand then the pdf itself. What do you think of the other group I mentioned about how Somalis have 5% Arabian and 10%? Are they wrong according to this one? AcidSnow (talk) 21:59, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a bad idea, actually. lol But seriously, these are just estimates. Some Somalis probably have more Arabian admixture, others less. The main thing to take away from all this is that most of the non-African affinities in Somalis, Amhara, Oromo, Tigray, etc. do not come from recent admixture with Arabs, Persians, Italians or other West Asian or European groups that Horn populations have had contact with over the years. They instead mainly come from their own Afroasiatic-speaking ancestors i.e. the Ethio-Somali population. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 22:15, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well obviously it would not since it took thousands of years for these ethnicity to form and we are discussing ancestry from thousands of years, but people on the internet are to stupid to realize it. AcidSnow (talk) 22:25, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Rer Bare

What is your take on the Rer Bare people? Do you think they are Bantu? I have never heard of such a thing until today. AcidSnow (talk) 06:23, 6 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hagmann appears to believe that the Rer Bare (not to be confused with Reer Bari) are Bantu because of Braukämper's assertion that they are "Adonē". However, this pejorative was also reserved for Ari-type or Nilotic populations. Based on the preponderance of the latter populations in southern and western Ethiopia and the traditional absence of Bantus outside of southern Somalia, Mcclure and Bender's assertions seem most likely. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 15:07, 6 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wait for consensus? I didn't see any opposition.

There is no edit war! I waited for anyone to show opposition, no one did! It's a fact that the Canaanites themselves aren't a distinct group, it's like saying Germanic peoples are a distinct group or that Slavic peoples are a distinct group, WRONG! They're a larger group made up of smaller groups who share a common ancestry. What do you mean wait for consensus? No one is showing opposition. I'll wait for 24 hours for anyone to show opposition, if no one will, will that count as a consensus? Guy355 (talk) 07:13, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I was reading your discussion earlier with a another user and I saw him upject to it and revert you. I then saw how you changed it back so I stept in to slow things down so you guys could continue talking. If I am wrong you may go ahead and revert me. But seeing the disscusion again it seems that you still have not recived consensus from the other editors. AcidSnow (talk) 10:06, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lewiston

Hi AcidSnow. As one of the main contributors to WikiProject Somalia, would you mind giving your input here on that project page? Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 17:30, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. AcidSnow (talk) 04:04, 8 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

SSL

But what do you think if the Somali Sign Language? I am quiet shocked to belive that's its Kenyan. If anything I would have assumed it would have been independent, decedent from Italian (like all other African countries that have been colonized), or at least Arabic but Kenyan now that's shocking! AcidSnow (talk) 04:04, 8 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

According to this its not at all but rather a isolate? AcidSnow (talk) 04:15, 8 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have just viewed the talk page and a user has objected to this. AcidSnow (talk) 04:38, 8 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, SSL isn't Italian or Kenyan. It was created by a deaf Somali gentleman, who grew up in Kenya and was educated in the Kenyan Sign Language. That's where the KSL influences come from. The system itself, however, is actually centered on Somali nationalism. Because SSL's creator shared the same language and culture with other deaf pupils in Somalia, the system is consequently also culturally appropriate. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 15:04, 8 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have fixed it and [nominated the category for deletion]. AcidSnow (talk) 02:30, 31 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Somali languages

These classifications are getting more outrageous every time I see them. Why on earth would someone classify Aweer as Somali if their using old source that have been disputed by current ones? There are many sources that state that it's far closer to Rendille then to Somali. These are also classified in a different sub group as well. Do you actually believe in this? AcidSnow (talk) 18:54, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's linguistically possible since the original Aweer speakers were related. However, the current speakers are not. They adopted the language from those original speakers; they likely spoke Khoisan languages prior to that. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 19:06, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What? I think....what? Nevermind, I noticed that someone was changing all the classifications and I noticed that you might be supporting them so I wanted to see what you thought. AcidSnow (talk) 19:11, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, I just noticed it too. Aweer actually appears to be linguistically closest to Garre. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 19:20, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It does not matter I this point, do the Garre view themselves as ethnic Somalis or a different group? AcidSnow (talk) 19:34, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Garre isn't Somali, though it's related to the language. Depending on region, the Garre themselves speak Garre, Standard Somali and/or Oromo. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 18:30, 11 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, I am talking about the clan. AcidSnow (talk) 22:35, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I know. Middayexpress (talk) 16:42, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Really, I see. Do the "Garre" have a completely different ancestors and culture as well? Or is it just their ancestory? What about other Rahnweyns? Are they not "Somali", Middayexpress? Then what clans are ethnically Somali? What about those tiny clans such as the Yiber? I would really like it if you could answer all if these. AcidSnow (talk) 01:54, 31 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

July 2014

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Somali colonial troops

I believe the gendarmerie were the Zaptié. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 16:42, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but that was just a sub group of the Italian Somalis. It was not the units that the British and French Somalis were organized in. AcidSnow (talk) 23:09, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There was also the Somaliland Camel Corps in British Somaliland. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 14:11, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

LGBT RIGHTS IN SOMALIA

Why did you get rid of the LGBT rights in Somaliland page? Somaliland is a whole different country, according to them and to one or two other countries that recognize it. Beside, they have a whole different set of rules. Somalia gives up to three years in prison, Somaliland they will KILL people who are gay. Please reopen that page so I can add that info. Thanks.

This is the same county, in fact no one recognizes it. So I am not sure what your talking about. AcidSnow (talk) 14:29, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hargeisa

Hi AcidSnow. Per the recommendation at DR, I have opened a new discussion here on the Hargeisa plane monument. Your input would be greatly appreciated. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 13:15, 25 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done and done. AcidSnow (talk) 13:18, 25 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tourism

Should this be redirect, Tourism in Somaliland? It's pretty much all already explained on Tourism in Somalia. In fact, all the sources used here are blogs except for two of them. AcidSnow (talk) 21:40, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, makes sense. Middayexpress (talk) 14:59, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have redirect it. AcidSnow (talk) 16:34, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Mogadishu

Why is it often reported that Mogadishu was founded in 900? That makes very little sense especially since some also say it was founded by Arabs. The city is much older than that. During the the Abbasid Capalhite, they did have nominal control such as tax/zakat, but in the years 804-805 Mogadishu and other cites stoped and revolted. So how could this city have been founded after 900 let alone by Arabs? Even Arab sources say that in 685 that an army was sent to Mogadishu. As we can see the city is much older than that. AcidSnow (talk) 04:50, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Scholars sometimes suggest this because they believe that the Mogadishu settlement was first established around the time of the founding of the Sultanate of Mogadishu by the Fakr ad-Din dynasty. These scholars are often not aware of the preceding, Periplus-era Sarapion city-state, over which the Sultanate of Mogadishu was later built. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 14:59, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I see, well I will add all the info I can find on the Sultanate and the events recorded by the Arabs. AcidSnow (talk) 16:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It would even appear that even before the Sultanate that the city was a clan federation (similar to that of Switzerland). AcidSnow (talk) 20:17, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That belongs on the Sultanate's page. Also, Khaleeji geographers weren't the only ones who wrote about the area. The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, for one, precedes their writings, and it is a Greco-Roman travelogue. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 20:47, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I know. AcidSnow (talk) 02:31, 31 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Central Region

What exactly is this central region? Are they combing the Galmudug region and the Himan and Heeb region to form one state? Could you also please explain Puntlands reason to oppose this? I have not looked up any news regarding Somalia these past few weeks do the increasing crisis. I just did and sadly they have reported that another lawmaker was killed. AcidSnow (talk) 18:18, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, good guess. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 18:28, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WOW! Thanks for all the help! #Sarcasm AcidSnow (talk) 20:13, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the response. I just realized that Puntland administrates Mudug which would explain its discision. AcidSnow (talk) 13:43, 2 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

	The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
	AcidSnow, you deserve this barnstar for taking down Khabboos, another pusher of homeopathetic woo. Good work! We don't need such disruptive editors. Brangifer (talk) 04:24, 30 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! If you need anything just message me! AcidSnow (talk) 05:20, 30 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at your recent edit, you might be interested in

Talk:Germans - although I think the problem there is just one editor who probably doesn't belong here. Dougweller (talk) 14:12, 2 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion has completely changed its course but I will see what I can do. AcidSnow (talk) 16:25, 2 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Maay Language

Hello Middayexpress. Since your most likely going to move this discussion to my talk page I have decided to beat you to it by starting it here instead. Anyways, I would like to disscuse Maay and it's relationship with Standard Somali and Benadir. I know several individuals that can understand Maay very well. In fact, when I ask to rate their understanding it's usually ranges from 60~80% understanding. They state that they have difficultly with their pronunciation of words and sentence structure. As of now I would I consider it to be a dialect of Somali rather than a completely diffrent language. Several linguistics also agree with this and individuals as well. For example, this individual list Maay as a dialect of Somali but also as "Partially unintelligible" with Somali. At first it would make sense classifying it as such he gives Uzbek and Turkish as his examples when they full under two different branch of the Turkic language. What do you think he meant? Do you consider Maay a dialect? AcidSnow (talk) 22:10, 2 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tourism in Somaliland

since 99% of all tourists go to western parts of somaliland. somalia and somaliland tourism pages should not be mixed. somalia has no tourists to talk about. our somaliland government do not even allow tourists to go beyond berbera unless they hire SPU (special protection unit) soldier. Theyuusuf143 (talk) 13:05, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]