Talk:History of the Jews in Russia

Comments

No Jewish Settlements before the pale? Come on, not many sure, but none, there were Jewish settlements in China and India. e.g. 1) Granted Khazaria was a temporary phenomenon, still The Jews of Khazaria; by Kevin Alan Brook. 360 pages, 6" x 9" size, Jason Aronson Inc., publishers; 3rd printing, September 2002: ISBN 0-7657-6212-9 (paperback/softcover). Originally published April, 1999, ISBN 0-7657-6032-0 (1st & 2nd printings: cloth/hardcover).

"The Jews of Khazaria recounts the eventful history of the Turkic kingdom of Khazaria, which was located in eastern Europe and flourished as an independent state from about 650 to 1016."

"The Jews of Khazaria draws upon the latest archival, linguistic, and archaeological discoveries. For instance, the book contains archaeological data from sites such as Chelarevo (Serbia), Ellend (Hungary), Sarkel (Russia), Balanjar (North Caucasus), Semikarakovskoye (Russia), Navahradak (Belarus), and Birka (Sweden)."

Further details on the WWW (including many Web sites from which the book can be purchased): The Jews of Khazaria

2) 1727 May 07 Jews are expelled from Ukraine by Empress Catherine I of Russia. ... Can't be expelled unless they are there.

Ukraine was the part of Poland, seized in 1686. Jews were present only in Poland and for a short period in the areas that were taken over from Poland.

Partition of Poland generally refers to 1772 and later ... there were Jews in Russia before that time (as evidence indicates). Ukraine was once controlled by Poland just as it was once governed by Russia and is now independent. And do you really believe that there was not a single Jewish person in as large a country as Russia, that every single person of Jewish ancestory or belief was expelled. I will just delete the sentence as it stands. dml

3) http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=479&letter=R&search=russia#1396

Old talk

Hello, 145.xxx.etc. I would have answered on your talk page, but you do not have one yet. First, welcome to Wikipedia. I hope you continue to contribute. As for your question regarding Jewish settlement in Russia, you are right in that it first occurred rather late--however, it was earlier than 1772. Some of the confusion that you rightly pointed out regards the boundaries of Russia and Poland before the partition--much of Ukraine was actually under Polish rule, the Crimea and the Caucasus were not yet under Russian rule, etc. However, I will give some early dates in Russia proper, based on two sources: 1) Dubnow, History of the Jews in Russia and Poland, Vol. 1 (JTS, 1916), and 2) Pinkus, B., The Jews of the Soviet Union (Cambridge University Press, 1990). According to Dubnow, the first substantial Jewish population in Russia came with the annexation of Little Russia in 1654. According to Pinkus, there were already Jewish merchants attached to the army of Dmitry the Pretender in 1605-1606. He adds that a Russian law passed in 1644 proscribed a death penalty for anyone attempting to convert people from the Russian faith and circumcise them--this can only be a reference to Jews. Peter the Great did allow apostasized Jews to settle in Russia and even allowed practicing Jewish bankers to settle in Moscow (Jewish cloth merchants apparently settled in Moscow illegally, so that in 1676 it was necessary to renew an order expelling them from the city. When Catherine I expelled the Jews from all Russian domains in 1727 (the problemt ostensibly began with the building of a synagogue in Zverovich, near Smolensk. The ukase began: "It has come to our attention that some Jews in our Empire, and particularly in Little Russia, continue to live there under false pretences ...), there was an outcry from nobles who required them to fill certain economic positions. There was a blood libel in Gorodnya, Little Russia, in 1702. Toward the end of his reign, Peter the Great allowed Lipmann Levy, a banker and "court Jew" to settle in St. Petersburg. According to one Russian historian (though I believe it to be an exaggerration) 35,000 Jews were expelled from Russia in 1753. I can go on, but this should serve to base my case. Danny 00:15, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Thanks! It was exactly what I wanted to hear. There were some settlement, although against the general rule, that Jews were not allowed.

Move (2003)

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I suggest to move the article to "History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union", since this is what this article actually is: (1) pre-revolution Russia, USSR, (3) postsoviet Russia. If no serious objections in 10 days, I'll do it. Mikkalai 17:50, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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More old talk

The following piece cut from the body:

Anti-Semitism was probably reduced by 1930, but not wholly by ideological campaigns, such as Yevslektsia, a government entity meant to expose anti-Semitic incidents closed in 1930 by Stalin, citing reduced anti-Semitism due to Soviet policies.

The wikipedian probably misunderstood something somehere. The (correctly named) Yevsektsiya article explains the issue more clearly. Mikkalai 01:37, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Double redirects

172: Next time please watch for double redirects yourself. Mikkalai 09:48, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

einsatzgruppen

Why were the einsatzgruppen removed? It may have little to do with the USSR but it has a lot to do with the Jews in Russia. Andries 11:58, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I have removed that empty section: IMHO, it belongs to the Shoah, but if you strongly think otherwise, fine with me. Arguably, more relevant to this article would be a section regarding the Jews' yesterday's neighbors and even old friends (most notably some Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Lithuanians, Latvians, etc.) who volunteered to collaborate with the Nazis in their extermination. Even after the war, the incidents analogous to the Kielce pogrom were ocurring in other places, too. We should not forget the Righteous among the nations who saved many Jews risking their own and their children's lives. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 06:41, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it does belong in the article althought may be under a different title e.g. "Jews under Nazi occupation"? The Nazis killed thousands of Jews so leaving this completely unmentioned is ridiculous. Andries 18:01, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Persecution of Jews in Russia

Didn't serious [not light] persecution of Jews in Russia actually begin during the late 1800s? Marcus2 22:23, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What is 7-40?

Supposedly it is a song related to emigration of Jews from the Soviet Union.  What is known about this? — Monedula 11:16, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

AFAIK, it is a Jewish folk song. See [1] ←Humus sapiens←Talk 17:57, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Integration?

"Integration of the Jews and movement from countryside shtetls ..." Should this perhaps be "assimilation" rather than "integration"? Or do I misunderstand? -- Jmabel 08:21, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

Having received no response, I have made this change. -- Jmabel 02:13, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

This is inaccurate

Law throughout Soviet history, however, listed Jews as one of the union's "basic nations", with their own language (Yiddish), and their own autonomous region — a failed, inhospitable settlement in Siberia that was nonetheless symbolic. The word "Yevrei" or "Jew" is also listed in the nationality section (an infamous "pyataja grafa", or "fifth record") of the obligatory internal passport document, which states the nationality of all Soviet citizens. Such treatment of the Jews as a nationality is somewhat alien to Jewish law, but reminiscent of Zionism. In May 1976, the Soviet journal Party Life prominently even displayed Jews as a distinct "nationality." However many Jews who recall the Holocaust, mistrust being classified as a "nationality" (preferring a more appropriate classification as a religion).

This is absolutely not true. Eastern European Jews identify themselves as an ethnic group or "nationality." Most are quite proud about their secular Jewish traditions, and the vast majority are atheists who identify with the culture of Judaism.

Being classified as a "nationality" wasn't a problem. It was the discrimination that usually ensued when a person was identified as a Jew that was the problem.

Kettle 15:42, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Any reason there is no discussion of...

1. Influence of Haskalah in Russia and the consequent changes in the character of Russian Jewry?
2. The government-run liberal rabbinical schools in the mid-to-late 19th century, such as the one at Zhitomir?
3. Relative loosening up on several fronts (e.g. somewhat easier for Jews to get gov't jobs, somewhat better treatment in the military) during the reign of Alexander II, followed by very harsh repression right afer his assassination?
4. Conversely, I believe that it is entirely wrong to say "During the reign of Alexander III the first pogroms against the Jews happened in Russia." I'm not sure when pogroms began, but Passover was a time of moderate-to-severe terror against Jews long before the reign of Alexander III. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:07, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

Or for that matter, how it is possible to have a serious article about the history of judaism during the marxist age, if you censor the marxist doctrine of judaism that explains it? It is funny and obviously self-explain by the fact that judaism is the only culture that has never been able to explain in a rational, scientific manner history, but only with myths and subjective opinions, which obviously perpetuates its historic cycles. This is the piece which is censored, for the record: The fundamental book of Marxism on Judaism is 'The Jewish question' by Karl Marx, followed by 'Judaism and capitalism', by Sombart, and the 'Jewish question' by Abraham Leon, himself a Jew, who died in a concentration camp. In those books the role of Judaism is essential to capitalism. Judaism is considered a Go(l)d culture whose religion was created a 'posteriori', to strengthen the role of the People-caste (Leon), as the exploiter of the Peasant class (Neolithic age, Marx),

the organizers of slave trade (Roman, Middle ages, Leon) and exploiters of the Workers class (industrial age, Sombart). In the tradition of Moses, 'the jewish will suffer all their history for their love of gold' the Holocaust cycle is explained
as the action-reaction process of those exploited by Jewish Capital, who murder their exploiters. The self-fullfilling prophecy of marxism took place both in Germany where Hitler ended his speeches saying 'the death of the Jewish will be the wealth of the Germans',
and the same Russia, where pogroms extended during the civil war and revolution age. While there was a brief moment of brotherhood, in the belief that Judaism was a capitalist culture not a racial trait and hence Jewish could be converted,
the demise of Trostky, returned to an officious age of antisemitism.

Those concepts, though historically correct, are today considered by the natural control of information that capital exercizes over historic truths, 'antisemitic' statements, which are relegated to the free-press of the blogosphere. Certainly not the wikipedia... And yet history can't be denied as it will always follow its own systemic truths... That is the 'jewish paradox', by censoring systematically the 'worldy culture of Judaism (which is ) Gold' Marx, the Jewish question, the classist traits of judaism (Leon), which consists in not-contact with gentiles, as a way to control them through salaries and money (Sombart), will be enacted, and the periodic anger of the poor, will end up in revolutions and holocausts. If judaism were able to have an objective analysis of history with its good and bad sides, its peculiar way of exploiting the poor (war against palestines instead of investment on them, for example), will end and reconciled with mankind they will end also the holocaust cycle. The present actions in gaza, the way in which russians took over them after Yukov's affair, etc. shows that regardless of censorship, the cycles of history will be played again: go(l)d explotaition and murder=holocaust. Shalom —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.177.67.45 (talk) 17:02, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

UkrSSR

UkrSSR it the abreviation for Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. This was official name of the part of the Soviet Union which became Ukraine after desintegration of the USSR in 1991. The regional branch of the Academy of Sciencies of the USSR had official name "Academy of Sciencies of UkrSSR". Please do not revert my correction. Andry

I get 21,400 Google hits for "Ukrainian Academy of Sciences", another 400 for "Ukranian Academy of Sciences", and 30 for "Academy of Sciences of UkrSSR", and 147 for "Academy of Sciences of the UkrSSR". "Ukrainian Academy of Sciences" is by far the most common English name for the organization. Please do not revert my correction, or you will have violated the Wikipedia:Three revert rule, and will be subject to banning. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:13, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The reason is that UkrSSR existed before the Internet boom. That's why you have found so little hits for "Academy of Sciences of UkrSSR". See Ukrainian SSR. The names of the Academy at different times are listed in the Ukrainian version of wikipedia in the article "Akademija nauk Ukrajiny" (should be typed in Cyrillic letters, of cause).

"Dozens of research institutes in various fields formed the Academy of Sciences of the Ukrainian SSR." This is the citation from the article Kiev Andriy

I see, you have corrected. Thanks. Andriy

Naming (2005)

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Is there a particular reason, or need, for this article's name to specify "and the Soviet Union". I realise the Soviet Union was a larger entity than Russia - but the government was essentially based where it is now. --Oldak Quill 02:33, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Jews lived in many places; Russia, Ukraine, BeloRussia, Khazakstan, Georgia, etc. The history covers all of them. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:36, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Reorg

Quite unexpectedly I found myself reworking the article. I think we should stick with mostly chronological sections, otherwise they step on each other's toes. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 03:26, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Forgot to say it before, but super job on the reorg, Humus. I took a crack at it awhile ago and gave up, but your take was really great. --Goodoldpolonius2 15:12, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Glad you liked it! BTW, I'm planning to unindent the assimilation trends section: it should start much earlier; the problem significantly grew in the 19th century. Perhaps this issue deserves a separate article altogether. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:25, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

censuses

according to [2], the 1989 census gives 537,000 Jews, not 1.45 million as shown in our table. I don't know if the difference is due to Russia vs. Soviet Union, this would mean that close to one million live in non-Russian Soviet territories. If this is the case, more than half the decrease since 1970 will be due to a changed population base and not to emigration or assimilation. As always, it is of course difficult to identify Jews qua ethnicity (as opposed to religion), and the census probably reflects self-identification; The 2002 census gives 230,000 Jews, and this is for Russia only, but it may exclude minor groups like the Tats classified as separate ethnicities; these will not amount to more than a couple of thousands however. The vast majority of these 230,000 will be native speaker of a Russian indistinguishable from any other Russian speaker, so unlike most other ethnicities listed in the census, it is not a linguistically defined one, and therefore much more open to interpretation. Baad 09:26, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Soviet reaction to the Holocaust

The article writes, "The official Soviet policy regarding the Holocaust was to present it as atrocites against Soviet citizens, not acknowledging the genocide of the Jews." This claim is somewhat of an over-simplification, underestimating the often-conflicing nature of Soviet statements on the subject, depending on under the direction of the influence of which state ministry, such as Propaganda, Foreign Affairs, or Education, or which party organ, they were issued. Moreover, there's greater variation depending on changing political realities over time. For example, during the brief period of warm relations between the Soviet Union and Israel, the Soviets made reference to the genocide agaisnt the Jews. Gromyko stated during the UN debate, "The Jewish people had been closely linked with Palestine for a considerable period in history.... As a result of war, the Jews as a people have suffered more than any other people. The total number of the Jewish population who perished at the hands of the Nazi executioners is estimated at approximately six million. The Jewish people were therefore striving to create a state of their own, and it would be unjust to deny them that right." 172 | Talk 03:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

You are correct to note that policies did vary with time. The direction of the "party line" throughout the periods of reigning of Stalin-Khrushchev-Brezhnev was far from straight. The source also had effect, but much less - the regime in the USSR was centralized and authoritarian. In this case, perhaps we should say typically or something to that effect. The policy in question was indeed typical and I can bring more examples if necessary. Gromyko's UN speech belongs in the relevant section and we do cite it. Note that it was intended exclusively for the audience beyond the Iron Curtain. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 06:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Good call. In this case, as you say, typically or something to that effect works. Another exception to the generality is that various Soviet academic circles were aware of the genocide against the Jews, though their ability to frame the public discussion of the subject was very limited. 172 | Talk 06:45, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

It is impossible to hide such losses. AFAIK, almost everyone knew, first through experience or stories and then via samizdat. It became one of politically incorrect topics. Maybe the fact that both Khrushchev and Brezhnev came from Ukraine also played a role. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:49, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

"Background"

What is with these phrases like "merchants of Jewish background" and, even more oddly "of Christian background"? Were these not "Jewish merchants" and "Christian merchants"? (Several similar turns of phrase.) -- Jmabel | Talk 00:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Badly placed PC effort, I assume. I will fix, as it reads awkwardly. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:50, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Irrelevant info

I don't see how expulsion from England, the Mongol invasion or the founding of Moscow are relevant to the topic. The following paragraphs probably belong to Anti-Semitism or History of anti-Semitism or some such.

In Western Europe and England near the end of the 13th century, the governing elite singled out Jews for special oppression. Christian mechants wished to obtain for themselves the profits from trade that Jewish merchants had secured prior to the 12th century. Jews in Western Europe and England were thus pushed-out of their merchant-trader roles and tracked into the economic role of moneylenders to feudal nobles and kings or to peasants and artisans. When the feudal nobles, after being unable to pay back their high-interest loans, subsequently lost their estates to the Jewish bankers who had lent them money, an economic motive would develop for them to massacre, expel or confiscate the property of the Jews.

In 1290, for instance, the 3,000 Jews living in England were expelled from that country and their property was confiscated. Sixteen years later, the 100,000 Jews of France were expelled, in 1306. Two years after the bubonic plague spread in 1347 through Western Europe, eliminating one-third of its population, persecution of the Jews in Germany also intensified. Between the end of the 14th century and the beginning of the 16th century, most German towns that were commercial centers forced Jews to leave for either the small village domains of German feudal lords or for Eastern Europe: Jews were expelled from Cologne in 1424, expelled from Strasbourg in 1438, expelled from Augsburg in 1439, expelled from Erfat in 1458, expelled from Nuremberg in 1498, and expelled from Ulm in 1499. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:51, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Just chiming in to concur :) Ahasuerus 15:38, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

References

Humus Sapiens recent edit: the additions are, of course, welcome, but why the removals? (And especially in a way that makes it very hard to see just what was removed: it would have been a lot cleaner to do this in two steps.) If references were actually used in the writing of the article, they should not be removed just because one editor considers them "irrelevant". -- Jmabel | Talk 07:37, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel, thanks for watching. I could be mistaken but I think those were added by me some time ago. In this edit, I didn't mean to hide anything, just put the list in reverse chronological order and wanted to deemphasize the refs to general antisemitism. From the diffs, here are the links I removed:

• Antisemitism: The Longest Hatred, Robert S. Wistrich. Pantheon Books, 1992
• Anti-Semitism, article in The Encyclopedia Judaica, Keter Publishing

If you feel they're needed, I won't object. Cheers. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 08:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that since they appear to have actually been used as sources, we should cite them. I can't see any harm in it. I'll re-add. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:08, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

FA?

Thanks to some amazing work by Humus, I think this is getting close to FA status. What do people think about putting it up for peer review? --Goodoldpolonius2 04:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. The post-Sov section is still waiting for its minstrels... I don't feel like it yet. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:35, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

The current text is a good start, but it's a bit syntactically challenged at the moment :) Also, there are many minor errors throughout the article (Kaganovich and Molotov were expelled from the Communist Party in 1962, not 1957; Trotsky was not the founder of the Red Army, at least not technically; etc). There are also numerous omissions of relevant information. Off the top of my head:

• the Decembrists had an interesting proto-Zionist plan to send Russian Jews to Palestine
• the second phase of the student unrest (1901) that eventually led to the Russian Revolution of 1905 started with a public protest against a play that was widely perceived as anti-Semitic
• the Pale effectively ceased to exist in 1915 during the Russian retreat on the Eastern Front
• the 1917 Provisional Government lifted many restrictions on Russian Jews
• although it's true that "The number of prominent Jewish Old Bolsheviks killed in the purge reflects the fact that Jews were the largest group in the Central Committee", there was an anti-semitic component to Stalin's campaign against the Left Opposition as early as the mid-1920s (see, e.g., Trotsky's Thermidor and anti-Semitism)

More importantly, the article as it currently exists is primarily about "History of Russian and Soviet Anti-Semitism" as opposed to "History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union". Surely there is more to be said on the subject? Ahasuerus 13:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh yes, forgot to mention the most glaring omission, the Populists' infamous attempts to exploit the 1881-1882 wave of pogroms to incite a revolution. You can find the relevant documents in Adam Ulam's In the Name of the People: Prophets and Conspirators in Prerevolutionary Russia (1977, 2nd ed. 1998) Ahasuerus 14:47, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Please do contribute to the article, Ahasuerus. BTW, Red Army says: "Credit as the founder of the Red Army generally goes to Leon Trotsky, the People's Commissar for War from 1918 to 1924." Cheers. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 04:23, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd be happy to help, but time is always at a premium and many Wikipedia articles are in considerably worse shape. I just finished re-writing the Leon Trotsky article and beginning to work on getting at least the top tier of the Polish military into some semblance of shape. There is work to be done everywhere from E. W. Hornung to Gustáv Husák and the list goes on and on. In the Russian niche of Wikipedia alone, there are huge gaps all over the place, from Nikolai Sukhanov and Yuri Steklov, arguably the two most important leaders of the February Revolution of 1917, to major writers like Alexei Remizov. What is there, like the Ilya Ehrenburg article, is often so bad as to be almost worthless. The Red Army article is yet another example. Oh well, one of these days...

Besides, I am not the best editor to help with Jewish history, which is a thoroughly and comprehensively researched field. There are folks who could do everything that I could do for this article (and more) in 1/10th the time, they just haven't made it here yet :) Ahasuerus 14:16, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

In the interest of inching towards FA, I put the article up for peer review. --Goodoldpolonius2 20:34, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Russian-language works...

... in the References section should also give English-language transliterations of authors' names and translations of titles. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:57, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Good idea. I'll work on this. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:01, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Jews and Bolshevism

I disagree with several recent anonymous edits to the section Jews and Bolshevism. They fall around the intersection of nationality, ethnicity, and religion, always tricky territory where the vocabulary can become confusing, but in these case I think the older wordings were better. I figured I'd try to start a discussion rather than merely revert, though if I don't get a response within 24 hours, I will simply revert.

"Many members of the Bolshevik party were ethnically Jewish" became "Many members of the Bolshevik party were formerly Jewish." I believe "ethnically Jewish" is correct. Although I realize that Jewishness is not, in the narrow sense an ethnicity, this is the normal way to refer to people who are Jews but do not practice Judaism. Note that under Jewish law, an apostate is still a Jew: the only way someone ceases to be a Jew is through cherem (the Jewish form of excommunication). To the best of my knowledge, none of the Jewish Bolsheviks were ever excommunicated, at least not by any mainstream community of Jews; cherem is a very rare matter in modern times. Hence, while "ethnically Jewish" is slightly problematic, "formerly Jewish" is quite wrong if "Jewish" here refers to the Jewish people, and at least equally as problematic as "ethnically Jewish" if it refers to Judaism, the Jewish religion: it would imply that each of these people was, as an individual, formerly a practicing Jew; I believe quite a few were not (Leon Trotsky being an obvious example).

Similarly "Even today, many anti-Semites continue to promote the idea of a link between Judaism and Communism. However, the concept that an entire ethnic group can be held responsible for the actions of a few is very widely rejected" became "Even today, many anti-Semites continue to promote the idea of a link between Judaism and Communism. However, the concept that an entire religious community can be held responsible for the actions of a few is very widely rejected" (emphasis mine). But contemporary anti-Semitism is not generally aimed primarily at Jews as a "religious community" but as a ethnic group. The Nazis killed secular Jews (and even Jewish converts to Christianity) just as readily as they killed practicing Jews.

Finally, "Jews were a plurality ethnicity in the Communist Central Committee, which had a non-Russian majority" became "Jews were a plurality ethnicity in the Communist Central Committee, which had a non-Christian majority." As far as I know, there were no practicing Christians on the Communist Central Committee, and I would be truly astounded to discover otherwise, so if that is the sense of Christian here the "non-Christian majority" is an irrelevancy. If Christian here refers to ancestry, then the statement is false: one would have had to combine the Jews with Latvians, Poles, and perhaps others of Christian ancestry to get a majority of the committee. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:19, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with each of your sentiments but am not quite sure what a "non-Russian majority" means in this context... I strongly support the reversion of these edits for the reasons stated. jnothman ^talk 08:48, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• We can word that more clearly; the issue is, again, ethnicity. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I also agree. Good catch. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 09:55, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Given the apparent consensus here, I will edit. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Late to the table, but agree as well. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Religious life

The article doesn't discuss Jewish religious life in the SU. Isn't it the right place? Xx236 17:37, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

In addition to this article, there is Religion in the Soviet Union and Soviet Union#Religious groups. Check out Category:Status of religious freedom by country, perhaps you want to write Status of religious freedom in the Soviet Union, Status of religious freedom in the Russian Federation, etc. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 22:23, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Russian mafia

I've done some minor copy-edits today after additions by User:67.10.43.83. I decided to remove the following phrase: Russian Jews are also present in the Russian mafia, although their numbers in the organization are difficult to come by. - Jews are not angels, so isn't it expected? Unless we have some numbers, this seems meaningless. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 04:40, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Abramovich and Berezovsky, say, are Jews. Something like 75% of post-Soviet oligarchs are Jews. Since oligarchy roughly equals to mafia... A coincidence? 77.40.81.96 (talk) 09:41, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Mush

This sequence of three sentences is so all-over-the-map is to reduce itself to mush:'

The typical Soviet policy regarding the Holocaust was to present it as atrocities against Soviet citizens. Given that the first victims of Auschwitz were Soviet prisoners of war, there is some legitimacy to this position. However, official Soviet texts usually did acknowledge the specific genocidal targeting of the Jews.

• "there is some legitimacy" is POV.
• the first and third sentences say almost opposite things. The text that follows and the one citation provided bears out the first sentence; the verbal transition to that passage suggests that it is intended to bear out the third.

-- Jmabel | Talk 02:45, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Conversely...

... is it really appropriate that we only mention Solomon Mikhoels and the Moscow State Jewish Theater in the context of their post-WWII suppression, and not in terms of the thriving secular Jewish culture in Moscow and elsewere in the first decades after the Revolution? - Jmabel | Talk 02:48, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Recently added paragraph

The following paragraph was recently added:

The word "Jew" was also avoided in the media when criticising undertakings by Israel, which the Soviets often accused of racism, chauvinism etc. Instead of Jew, the word Israeli was used almost exclusively, so as to paint its harsh criticism not as anti-Semitism but anti-Zionism.

I suppose. Sort of. But it isn't like when they criticized Austria they referred to the fact that its population were overwhelmingly Roman Catholic, or when they criticized the UK they referred to the fact that its population were largely Anglican. Am I missing something here? - Jmabel | Talk 07:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

the thing is, I've read numerous books on foreign politics dating back to the Soviet era, and when fervently criticising the actions of Israel and Jews there, these 'acts of state terror against Palestinians, national oppression' etc are usually attributed to Israelis, which in my native language sounds linguistically extremely constructed (I'm not reading Russian originals but Soviet era translations). I'm sure they used the Russian word for 'Israeli' in these occasions.

Well, to make my sentiment clear: the Soviets used their usual extreme rhetoric against the Jews (Israel) and accused them of whatever thousand sins, but didn't want these accusations (often obvious slander) to look similar to anti-Semitism. Thus, euphemisms were used. --Constanz - Talk 08:47, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Native Hebrew?

In the section on Alexander "were not permitted to speak their native tongue of Hebrew": I doubt there were any significant number of people in the world at the time who had Hebrew as a native tongue. This was an addition with a citation; would you please re-check your source? I'd be really interested in knowing precisely what it said. Since Hebrew was, at that time, primarily a liturgical language, does this mean that Hebrew prayers were illegal? Or perhaps it means to say "were not permitted to speak their native tongue of Yiddish"? That seems more likely. Even in that case, though, one must ask: not permitted in what realms of life? I seriously doubt that it was illegal to carry on a conversation in Yiddish at home; I'm sure it was impossible to testify in court or petition over grievances in Yiddish; but where in between did the line fall? Since Yiddish theater had its first great heyday in Russia late in Alexander's term, there could not have been all that much of a prohibition. Or, if it was Hebrew, how did the government-sponsored rabbinical school at Zhytomyr function? - Jmabel | Talk 23:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

The questionable statement has now been removed. Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 17:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The Holocaust

The section in the article reads : 33,771 Jews of Kiev shot in ditches at Babi Yar. From what I have seen in a TV interview of one of the survivors, she said 300,000 thousand died, and only 300 survived (PBS Documentary Russia's War). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.247.18.146 (talk • contribs) 17 August 2006.

Plurality of majority of CCC?

This edit changes Jews from a plurality to a majority of the Revolutionary-era Communist Central Committee. I'd like to see a citation for that. - Jmabel | Talk 20:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Joseph Trumpeldor

There is signature under picture :> Joseph Trumpeldor, the most decorated Jewish soldier in the Russian Army for his bravery in the Russo-Japanese War: But on the picture i cant see any single order? Is somebody make a jock ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.16.183.57 (talk • contribs) 30 October 2006.

Recent move (2006)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I object to the recent move of this from History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union to Russian Jewry. Approximately half of the Jews in Russia at any time in the last century or so are secular and not part of any "Jewry". - Jmabel | Talk 17:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

"Many Jews were Bolsheviks"

This is a fundamentally Antisemitic observation in this context as say that "Many negros commit crimes." I am utterly shocked that our editors fail to see this.

How much is little - one? Is rwo Jews too many? It does not matter that a book is cited. Any book which says such a thing is fundamentally racist. One can give a number, 10, 100, 1,000, 10,OOO, etc.

But the subtext says "TOO MANY JEWS WERE BOLSHEVIKS"! --Ludvikus 02:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

It just states a fact. The number of those of Jewish descent was disproportionately large (the Jews accounted for a much smaller percentage in the total population of Russia/USSR). The causes for this may be complex and there's no subtext to it. The myth of "Jewish Bolshevism" has its own article. Daizus 11:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

In fact it doesn't state any fact. The number of Jews in the Bolshevik movement wasn't disproportionate at all. You confuse this with their number among the leaders of the movement. --SimulacrumDP 15:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Most materials I've read addressing this issue, claim a large number of Jews joined the Bolshevik movement (and other movements of the era). The causes are complex, some are already given in the article. You may disagree with me, but please refrain from giving verdicts on my state of mind. Daizus 16:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

After review of this article, I feel that it meets and exceeds the GA standards. Consequently this article is passed and added to the list of Good articles. As I was reading this article I was struck by the amount of information contained herein clearly elaborated on. There are several photographs and a table showing related articles. The prose is clear. I feel that this article needs more cites, though to make through to FA. Dagomar 21:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Pale

This article appeared in Russian Yearbook 1912 (pp 704-707) under the title JEWS transliterated in this form to English;

As far as is known, the first Jewish immigrants reached Poland in very early times from countries on the Lower Danube and from the kingdom of Khazars who had accepted the Jewish faith. The national sagas and legends show their importance in this early era. At the end of the 11th century many entered Poland from Germany, and in 1264 Boleslas the Pious granted them numerous priviliges which were extended by Casimir the Great in 1334, in which year the great statue concerning of them, called Jus Magdeburgium, was enacted, followed another called the Privilegia Judaeorum in 1337. The Jews soon spread to Courland, Lithuania and the Ukraine, so that there were in the 18th century numbers of Jews living in Poland and on the Russian frontier, the prohibitive policy of that country making any movement across the border impossible. The law of 1789 gave the Jews the right to live in certain provinces, but in 1792 a great change took place. The first partition of Poland gave to Russia White Russia and part of Lithuania; the second in 1793, and the third in 1795 added the ten Vistula provinces, and in annexing this land, Russia obtained at least half of the entire Jewish race of as subjects. The Russian cencus of 1897 gave the total number of Jews in Russia as 5.215.805. In 1835 the Jews were by the "Code of the Rights of the Jews" confined to to certain districts of the Empire, these districts constituting the so called "Pale". The "Pale" consists of twenty - five of the provinces of the entire Russian Empire. It begins immediately south of the Baltic Provinces, streches throughout the west, and extends over the south as far east as the Don Cossack Territory. It covers about 362.000 square miles, or less than 20 per cent. of European Russia, and only a little over 4 per cent. of the entire Russian Empire. The "Pales" include;

1) In the Kingdom of Poland (or the region of the Vistula) the Province of Warsaw, Kalish, Kielce, Lomzha, Lioublin, Piortkoff, Plotsk, Radom, Souvalki and Siedlce.

2) In Lithuania, the Provinces of Vilna, Kovno and Grodno.

3) In White Russia, the Provinces of Minsk, Vitebsk and Moghileff.

4) In south-western Russia, the Provinces of Volhynia, Podolia, Kieff (expect the city of Kieff), Tchernigoff and Poltava.

5) In southern (new) Russia, the Provinces of Bessarabia, Kherson, Ekaterinoslaff and Taurida (except the city of Yalta).

The following specified classes of Jews are given privilege of domicile throughout the Empire:

1) Merchants of the first guild, i.e. merchants paying a very high business licence, after having paid that licence somewhere within the "Pale" for five consecutive years. This right of living anywhere in Russia, outside of the "Pale" lasts only as long as the payment of the licence is continued, but after ten annual payments the permanent right of domicile within the city in which the payment have been made is acquired.

2) Professional men and women, such as physicians, lawers, dentists, engineers, army surgeons, midwives, and graduates of universities and higher institutions of learning in general. as well as studets in such institutes.

3) Master-artisans working at their trade when admitted to their artisans´ guild, or possessing the necessary legal evidence of proficiency in their craft.

In all these cases the aquired right of domicile extends to the members of the family, and in the case of merchants of the first guild and the proffesional persons, to a limited number of servants and clerks of Jewish faith. In regard of the Jewish artisans, the lomitations are much more numerous, and in 1881 their further emigration from the "Pale" into the interior of the Empire was made exceedingly difficult, and the artisans who were living in the city, as well as in the government of Moscow, were compelled to leave. discharged soldiers form the considerable portion of jews permitted to live throghout Russian Empire, including the Grand Duchy of Finland; this right is granted only to those who served in the army prior to 1874. This class, therefore, cannot increase in number. The temporary sojourn outside the "Pale" of Jews who have no right of permanent domicile, is strictly limited by law to from six weeks to two monts, and then only in cases of proved necessity, such as law-suit, commercial transactions, or proving a will.

93.9 per cent. (4.879.640) of the Jews in Russia live in the "Pale", 4 per cent. (208.635) live in the remainder of European Russia, and 2.1 per cent. (109.530) live in all the Asiatic possessions of the Empire. Thus most of the Jews live in the "Pale", but they constitute only 11.6 per cent. of the entire population. Everywhere in the "Pale" there is terrible congession of the Jews, both in towns and cities, due, in the main, to the Laws of 3 May 1882, which were promulgated as a result of the Jewish riots of 1881. These laws prohibited the further settlement of Jews outside cities and towns, and in practice meant the expulsion of multitudes of Jews from villages where they had already settled. In 1891, by the new law, thousands of Jews were expelled from Moscow and forced forced to live in the "Pale", and Jews were prohibited from buying land or renting it from the peasants. In 1897,of the total urban population of the "Pale" 37.7 per cent. were Jews. It must here be stated that there are villages called "Miestechkoes", where Jews have the right to settle; in every case the Jews have made these into the commercial centres for the numerous outlying Russian villages.

In the "Pale" 29 per cent. of the Jews are engaged in agriculture, and 32 per cent. in commerce, whilst 63.2 per cent of the non-Jews are engeged in agriculture and only 1.4 per cent. in commerce. It is calculated that a Jewish agricultural household´s annual budget is 300 Roubles = about £ 30, but the average annual earnings are not more than 139 Roubles = £ 14. The average plot of ground owned ny a Jewish colonist is smaller than that of his Russian peasant neighbour. Thus in 1897 in the six north-western provinces and four south-western provinces, the Russian peasant had on the average 6.1 and 4.7 acres respectively, but the Jewish peasant had 4.1 and 1.9 acres. In the whole Empire 6.422.684 acres are in Jewish hands, Of this quantity 4.336.829 acres are in the "Pale", but this is only 1.5. per cent. of the whole agricultural land in the "Pale". In Poland, of the land occupied by the Jews, 86 per cent. is ownwed, and 14 per cent. is leased. In the remaining provinces of "Pale" 32.5 per cent. is owned and 67.5 per cent leased.

The following are the most important enactments and Senatorial decisions, given in chronologial order;

1892 17 February. In accordance with a proposal of the Imperial Council, the mining industry in Turkestan is closed to Jews.

1892 2 Juni. An Imperian order, following a proposal of the Imperial Council, to the effect that throughhout the governments of Tiflis, Kutais, Baku and Elisavetpol, as well as in the State domains and privately owned lands in the province of Kouban and Terek, the acquisition or exploitation of oil-fields by Jews, as well as their adminstration, shall be allowed only by special permission of the Ministers of Interior and of Finance, as wellas of the Caucasian Commander-in-Chief.

1892 11 June. A decision of the Imperial Council that Jews shall not take part in municipal elections, and that they shall be excluded from municipal adminstrative positions. Within the "Pale", however, the adminstration expects a certain number of Jews, who are eligble for election as municipal councillors, but their number must not exceed one-tenth of the whole body, and is to be fixed by the Minister of Interior.

1892 18 June. A law establishing a special right of residence in the provinces of Kouban and terek. The indigenous Jews may remain in the places where they are registered, but only in these places, their liberty of movement thus being restricted. All other Jews, with a few exceptions, are forbidden to settle in provinces. the four privilidged categoties have had their rights curtailed. Those Jews who are allowed to remain are forbidden to acquire or rent further property.

1892 15 October. Withdrawal of the righ of residence in the government of Moscow (including the town itself) from soldiers of the old regime (so called "Nikolai" soldiers).

1893 14 January. A circular of the Minister of the Interior cancels the orders of the former Ministers Makov and Tolstoi (21 April 1882), establishing the principle that all Jews who had settled outside the "Pale" prior to April 3 1880, should be left undisturbed.

1893 24 May. an order excluding the health resort of Jalta (the faourite summer resicence of the Imperial family in the Crimea) from "Pale" of settlement.

1893 6 October. A circular of the Medical Department fixing the "percentage rule2 for apothecaries´ apprentices at 3 per cent. of the total number in St.Petersburg and Moscow, and at 5 per cent. in all other places.

1894 30 November. A Senatorial decision to the effect that the Jews of Kieff cannot become merchants of the first Guild until they have paid their licence in some part of the "Pale" of Settlement for at least a year.

1894 23 December. A circular of the Minister of the Interior decreeing that Jews who have graduated as veterinary surgeons in the veterinary college are no longer be admitted to the service of the State.

1895 18 January. A Senarorial decision that rabbis possess no right of residence beyond the "Pale" of Settlement.

1895 27 January. A Senatorial decision depriving Jews of the right of residence in the fifty-verst boundary zone, even though they are possessed of diplomas procuring them the universal privilige of domicele, unless they are descendants of Jews who have been settled there from time immemorial. The same ruling had been made as far back as 1887 in the case of artisans and merchants of the firts Guild.

1895 27 January. A circular of the Minister of the War instructing the Cossack authorities in the Caucasus and the Don territory that Jews visiting the Don. Kouban, and terek provinces for the sake of medicinal waters are not to be admitted.

1895 13 September. A Senatorial decision depriving Jewish agriculturists of the right to rent land outside the precincts of the towns and townlets. A similar decision of later date applies to artisans.

1896 9 March. A regular of the Military Council ordering Jewish soldiers, inless they belong to the privilidged categories, must not spend their forlough outside "Pale" of Settlement.

1897 31 January. A Senatorial decision to the effect that soldiers of the old regime possess no right of residence in the Caucasian provinces of Joubain and Terek.

1897 31 January. A senatorial decision according to which ink-makers are not rank as artisans, and consequently do not possess the universal right of domicile. the latter decisions applies the same ruling to tobacco workers.

1897 26 March. A Senatorial decision that outside the "Pale" of Settlement students as such (unless they possess a special domiciliary privilege) are entitled to the right of residence only in the unversity town whwre they are studying.

1897 26 March. A Senatorial decision that local Jews belonging to the merchants´ corporation of Riga are not entitled to transact business in the district of Riga.

1897 2 June. A law to effect that the admittance of Jewesses to the Women´s Higher Institute of Medicine in St.Petersburg is to be limited to 3 per cent. of the total number of students.

1897 13 November. An Imperial order depriving Jews and Jewesses studying pharmacy, or attending schools of surgery and midwifery respectively, of the right to residence in the town or government of Moscow for this purpose.

1898 18 February, 14 April, and 8 December. A Senatorial decision to the effect that fish-curers, piano-tuners and land surveyors do not belong to the privilidged artisan categories, and are therefore declared to be of non-priviliged occupations, thus possessing no right of residence beyond the "Pale" of Settlement.

1898 18 February. According to an earlier law, merchants of the first Guild, after paying Guild tax outside the "Pale" of Settlement for ten years consecutively, gained the universal right of residence even when they ceased to belong to the Guild.

1898 27 February. A Senarorial interpretation of the law limits this privilege to the town where the Guild tax has been paid.

1898 18 March. A Senatorial decision extends the restrictions relating to the right of recidence in Kouban and Terek to all artisans who have not been assigned to this region. Two years later (18 January 1900) a similar decision is applied to merchants of the first Guild.

1898 25 November. A Senatorial decision decides that Jews who are natives of Riga are not entitled to live in Livonia, but only in Riga and its suburbs.

1898 18 December. A Senarorial decision stating that the right of residence throughout the Empire which has been granted to various categories does not extend to Siberia.

1899 22 January. An Imperial order to the effect that, in the government of Moscow, Jews can be registered as merchants of the first Guild only by permission of the Minister of Finance and the Governor-General of Moscow.

1899 19 May. A Senatorial decision to the effect that the manufacture of mineral water, not being a handicraft, ranks among non-priviliged occupations, and therefore does not confer the right to residence outside the "Pale" of Settlement.

1899 28 May. A Senatorial decision that outside the "Pale" of Settlement the right of residence is vested only for those Jewish domestic servants whose masters possess university diplomas. No other categories of privileged Jews can transfer their domiciliary right to thir servants.

1899 6 October. A Senatorial decision stating that certificates gained by Jewish artisans in Courland are not valid for the rest of the Empire.

1899 14 October. A Senatorial decision according to which artisans living beyond "Pale" of Settlement are noot entitled to sell their own products in any other place than where they are domiciled.

1900 28 May. An Imperial order forbidding the entry of Jews who have acquired an hereditary title of nobility, in the Govenrmant register of nobles.

1900 5 June. A Senatorial decision ruling that compositors, not belonging to the artisan class. possess no right of residence beyond the "Pale" of Settlement.

1901 28 November. A Senatorial decision to the effect that the Jew inheriting a title of nobility does not on account possess the right to serve the State, unless he is also the possessor of a university degree.

1901 19 December. A Senatorial decision that descendants of Jews exiled to Siberia as well as descendants of persons transplated there by Nikolai I. must remain in that particular district where they have been registered.

1902 2 November. A Senatorial resolution according to which dentists, surgeons, and midwives possess the right to residence beyond "Pale" only while they are exclusively engaged in following their profession.

1903 10 May. An order forbidding Jews to purchase, lease, or manage estates beyond the "Pale".

In 1905 a commission was appointed to inquire into the Jewish question, and the Government held out promise of revising the legal status of the Russian Jews and minimizing the disabilities under which they labour.

JN

Jewish history

The above obviously is the main article. --Ludvikus 13:20, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

History of the Chinese in the Colonies and the United States

As the title of this articke now stands it appears to be original research. How about a follow up: History of the Jews in New York City and the United States. --Ludvikus 13:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

"Many Jews were/did ..."

Beware of this antisemitic entrapment. Most often the word "many" (as well as "few," etc.) is a POV work. It is to be avoided if possible unless a relevant source is quoted, or it otherwise cannot be replaced. A possible alternative is the following:

    "A notable number of Jews ...".

The advantage of that is that it avoids the (often) subjective, or otherwise disputable, alternatives many/few. --Ludvikus 23:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

• For example, antisemites claim[ed] that Bolshevism is Jewish. Why? Because "many" Jews were Bolsheviks. But whose to say that the alternative is not closer to the truth: "Few" Jews were Bolsheviks? The choice depends on the complex social theory, or theory of history, one subscribes to. --Ludvikus 23:27, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Death-toll of Jewish Soldiers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_history_%28Russia_and_the_Soviet_Union%29#The_Holocaust

"Over 200,000 Jews died in battle fighting in the Red Army against the Nazis."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Soviet_Jews_participation_in_WW2.png "1946. The official response to an inquiry by JAC about the participation of the Jewish soldiers in the war (1.8% of the total number). Some antisemites attempted to accuse Jews of the lack of patriotism and of hiding from the military service"

Total number of jews fighting for Red army according to the official story document: 123.822

How come over 200.000 jews died fighting for the red army if only 123.822 even participated? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.232.67.249 (talk) 22:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Inflated numbers.--Lvivske (talk) 22:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Untrue. The official response to an inquiry by JAC doc. gives not the number of participants, but the number of those recommended for decoration.Galassi (talk) 23:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Image content clarification

Purported copy of the birth certificate of Michael Lucas (director)

Pages from a purported copy of the birth certificate (Russian: свидетельство о рождении, lit.,Certification of Birth ) of Michael Lucas (Andrei Treivas, or Treyvas), showing information about his birth. It lists his mother's surname as "Treivas" (or "Treyvas") and his father's surname as "Bregman." Under Russian Soviet law, a child automatically inherited his father's surname so long as the father is known and married to the birth mother at the time of birth. This document proves conclusively that Michael Lucas' parents were not married as of the date of his birth.--72.76.86.219 (talk) 22:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Good article reassessment

I asked for a reassessment about the Good article status. See top of talk page Mariah-Yulia (talk) 02:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

One problem is the sections on modern Ukraine and Belarus themselves, which belong in the History of the Jews in Ukraine and the History of the Jews in Belarus respectively. It makes no sense to have Ukraine as a subsection of "Jews in Russia today". The information is not about Ukraine as part of the Soviet Union, rather modern Ukraine. That is exactly what the History of the Jews in Ukraine is for. I have proposed the merger, and there is very little content (2-3 sentences) in either of those sections so I expect there to be no objections... Ostap 05:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I didn't even know that History of the Jews in Ukraine and History of the Jews in Belarus existed since the see also section didn't list them (I have done that now). I stil don't understand why this article deserves good-article status since it clearly has failed to live up to it's scope (a rename would fix this, see below) Mariah-Yulia (talk) 00:13, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Requested move (2008)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

A lot of information in the article about Russia, but almost none of other former Soviet-republics (and there are some articles (History of the Jews in Ukraine and History of the Jews in Belarus) who do give this information Mariah-Yulia (talk) 00:02, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Image copyright problem with Image:Vilna Gaon portrait.gif

The image Image:Vilna Gaon portrait.gif is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --06:00, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Corrections in the tables

I have added a data from the russian census (2002) into the demographic data table and made some references and remarks concerning data from the entire FSU and Russian Federation only.

I believe the Russian Jewish Diaspora section has to be corrected. For example, the data in the Israel table consists of the population from the entire FSU and not Russia only. Therefore, I suggest to rename it to "Russian-speaking Jewish Diaspora". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kostja1975 (talk • contribs) 09:48, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

887 Pogroms in Ukraine

I have tried to validate the text "Out of an estimated 887 mass pogroms in Ukraine during 1917-1918, about 40% were perpetrated by the Ukrainian forces led by Symon Petliura, 25% by the Green Army and various nationalist/anarchist groups, 17% by the White Army (especially by the forces of Anton Denikin), and 8.5% by the Red Army". It was referenced to Solzhenitsyn's 200 let together. I have looked through the 16th chapter of the book [3] "During the Civil War" and made a google search through the whole text on the number 887 but have found nothing. A similar info is given on a Grani.ru page so I have referenced it to Grani.ru (I hope they have not taken it from wiki). The disputed text said "307 (25 %) банды атаманов Григорьева, Махно, Зеленого и других": 25% are bands of Grigoriev, Makhno, Zeleny and others. I think the correct reference to those group is "various warlords". Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:33, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

("Murders during recorded anti-Jewish attacks, 1918-1920"):

Perpetrator	Number of pogroms or excesses	Number murdered	Murder in each pogrom
Hryhoriiv's bands	52	3,471	67
Directory	493	16,706	34
White army	213	5,235	25
Miscellaneous bands	307	4,615	15
Red Army	106	725	7
Others	33	185	6
Polish army	32	134	4
Total	1,236	31,071	25

Source: Henry Abramson, Jewish Representation in the Independent Ukrainian Governments of 1917-1920, Slavic review, Vol. 50, No. 3 (Autumn, 1991), pp. 542-550
IMO, the number of killed is a better indicator than the number of incidents.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:52, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Help expand Racism in Russia

Hello! For any editors who are willing, the article "Racism in Russia" could use some expansion on the "antisemitism" section within that article. Thank you for any help you can offer! --Tea with toast (talk)

I notice there are no women amongst the twelve representative Jewish figures at the top of the page. Could this be rectified? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.90.6 (talk) 13:55, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Quotation

Not every sourced quotation belongs to the article. Therefore, I deleted this quotation as something that belongs to Stalinist propaganda from 1930s with its typical wording ("cannibalism", etc.). The statement obviously contradicts a lot of factual information, such as the well-known antisemitic campaigns organized by Stalin (rootless cosmopolitans, Doctors' plot, etc.) Let's focus on factual information. Biophys (talk) 19:48, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

During Stalin's rule most former members of tsarist-era anti-Semitic organizations were shot. Possession of anti-Semitic literature was considered serious crime. This was not just some empty rhetoric, Stalin's quotation is important. --DonaldDuck (talk) 02:42, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

@DonaldDuck, a bit late to this, how do we reconcile this to Stalin himself being an anti-Semite (per Khrushchev)? PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 03:05, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Image

Image showing Trotsky, Sverdlov and Zinoviev is good illustration for "Jews in the revolutionary movement" section. If there are too many images in the article, then American New Year card (trivial image), or photo of Sergey Brin (left USSR at the age of six, more American Jew then Russian) should be removed. --DonaldDuck (talk) 06:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

It's a picture with a whole bunch of small faces, many not Jewish. A picture of Trotsky (by far the best known) would be better. The postcard is actually of more value, in terms of the social history of the vast majority of Russian Jews, and Brin is one of the most famous (and successful) Russian Jews alive today. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

No, for encyclopedia, documentary photograph that depict real event have more value, compared to postcard with artwork. Brin is famous, but this article is about Jews in Russia, not American Jews. --DonaldDuck (talk) 07:06, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I do not have strong opinions about keeping or removing images of any people here. As about image in question, it tells "2nd Congress of Soviets", not "Jews at 2nd Congress of Soviets". Hence I tend to agree with Jayig that image is not really relevant. Biophys (talk) 12:53, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree that Brin's picture could be removed, but even then, there are still to many images here, and as Biophys points out, the image isn't an appropriate one. And social histories are not just about pictures of people; other images are at least equally (and typically more) valuable. A face is just a face, two eyes, two ears, a nose and a mouth - not much can be learned about the History of the Jews in Russia from that. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:53, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Image of table (File:Soviet Jews participation in WW2.png) may be removed. Relevant figure from this table (1,8% of military decorations were awarded to Jewish soldiers) may be added to article text. --DonaldDuck (talk) 02:58, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

The table gives a huge amount of information about lots of Russian Jews. The image shows a few tiny faces of a mix of Jews and non-Jews. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:31, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Incomplete regarding initial invasion of Eastern Europe/Baltics by the USSR

The article does not mention that Jews suffered, proportionally as a percentage of (ethnic) population, more than any other nationality in Stalin's mass deportations from the Baltics (and likely Poland, although I don't know the figures there) prior to the Nazi Germany invasion and the Holocaust. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 19:39, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

I would say, those who were exiled were the luckiest Jews: while most deported Jews survived in exile, the Jews who stayed had been murdered by Nazi (frequently with assistance of local population). That was a rare case when Stalin's repressions helped to save lives of those who had been repressed. I personally knew a Polish Jew who survived in exile (he spent the first part of the war in one Ural city), whereas all his family, 22 persons, perished in Nazi camps.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:30, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Jews deported in the mass deportation just prior to the German invasion were taken away to the harshest camps and conditions. Recall, Khrushchev testified in later years to Stalin being a rabid anti-Semite. "Frequence" of local assistance, unfortunately, served the purposes, both real and propagandic, of both the Nazis and Soviets. For example, regarding the extermination of Jews in one town in Lithuania, the official Nazi report blames the locals whereas a German eyewitness wrote to Berlin (both reports in German archives) regarding the same massacre that if word got out it was a small German commando unit that did the exterminating it would not look good for the Nazis. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 02:50, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Re "Jews deported in the mass deportation just prior to the German invasion were taken away to the harshest camps and conditions." I have no idea where did you take it from. Re Stalin antisemitism, that is true only for the post-war period. Re massacres of the Jews in Lithuania, most of them were orchestrated by Nazi, however, the fact that many Lithuanians participated in them with great enthusiasm is hard to deny.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:09, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Odd how Liz Holtzman once stated all Latvians are Nazis--while scholarship indicates a number somewhere in the 300-1,000 range (Arajs Commando and related) as I recall, it's been a while since I read up on the subject. Whereas no one every labels the French all Nazis, although 38,000 Vichy collaborators were convicted. Convicting in the court of popular perception is far more effective than convicting in the court of law, apparently. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 03:00, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The statement "All (any nation name) are Nazi" is by definition false (this is not true even for the Germans themselves), so I think we can safely ignore such opinions. Of course, if that is really what this author says.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:09, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

@Paul. Please see A Travel to the Land Ze-Ka, probably one of the best books about Gulag. Author was a Polish Jews who described in much detail how other Polish Jews (and others) perished in Gulag. Biophys (talk) 04:06, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Please see the Ellman's article I cited on the Gulag talk page: witness testimonies are not good sources for general conclusions, and they frequently give distorted pictures, per this historian. In addition, a major part of the population of the annexed territories was exiled, not imprisoned in Gulag. --Paul Siebert (talk) 04:09, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Russian text of the book. Biophys (talk) 04:23, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Regretfully, all of what he writes is true, however, is it sufficient to make generalisations you do?

"Furthermore, the use of unofficial sources introduces an important bias into our study of Soviet repression and penal policy, in favour of politicals and against criminals. Although only a minority of the inhabitants of the Gulag were officially classified as 'counterrevolutionaries'( although, as is agreed by all the participants in this debate, the division between criminals and politicals was blurred under Soviet conditions), the unofficial or literary sources mainly derive directly or indirectly from the politicals and hence give a one-sided picture. In these sources criminals figure mainly as a hostile and dangerous element, rather than as, say, themselves victims of rapid and violent social change. A former NKVD official has observed of Solzhenitsyn's writings that they give 'the impression that the prisoners of the Gulag were mainly political prisoners. This is not so. The overwhelming majority of prisoners were criminals" (Ellman Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 54, No. 7 (Nov., 2002), pp. 1151-1172).--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:30, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

It's also well documented that in Latvia, percentage-wise, no ethnic group suffered more than Jews in the first mass deportation. None of the victims of mass deportations were "criminals." The decimation of Jewish community leadership: civic, merchant, professional, political, left them ill-prepared to deal with and organize when the Nazi invasion and Holocaust arrived a week later. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 03:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Eisenstein not Jewish!

Sergei Eisenstein was not Jewish, he is a person with Jewish heritage including his picture with such Jews as Shalom Aleichem is misleading and inappropriate on an article about soviet Jewry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.132.139 (talk) 07:16, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Biasedness

The section about today's Russia presents only rare antistimetic cases without showing the whole picture and ignoring pro-semitic cases. For example, most antisemitic books are actually banned under anti-hatred penal code. For example, the article says that Mein Kampf was translated into Russian in 2002, but doesn't say that it was actually banned exactly the same year (July 25, 2002). Not to mentation that all "nazi groups" are very marginal and hardly anyone sane takes them seriously.

I understand that American Jews that edit this article "butthurt" about Russia, but it doesn't mean you necessary have to distort the reality. 77.40.81.96 (talk) 09:43, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

about birth certificate

On the photo of Soviet birth certificate («Свидетельство о рождении») written not ethnicity of a child but ethnisity of his father («еврей») and of his mother («еврейка»). Also I just look in my internal passport and see no ethnisity. From RussiaMysterybeing (talk) 16:55, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Work on the collage

I did some work on the collage. I added Anton Rubinstein (it doesnt matter his family converted, many did it because there was no other choice and ethnically he's still a Jew) and replaced Kasparov with Botvinnik (Kasparov is half ethnically Jewish but we don't know what he thinks of his identity). Also, It had 3 rows of 3 people and one row of 2 people, instead I made it 3 rows of 4 people and I think it looks better now. That's what we have now:

Sholom Aleichem • Isaac Levitan • Leon Bakst • Sergey Brin
Golda Meir • Marc Chagall • Osip Mandelstam • Mikhail Botvinnik
Abraham Goldfaden • Lev Landau • Isaac Asimov • Anton Rubinstein

Though the majority of American Jews have ancestors in the Russian Empire, I sticked to those who were actually born in the Russian Empire/Soviet Union.

I read the discussion on top and it was suggested to add Trotsky and few more people. I don't fine it a bad idea, but wouldn't some people find it controversial? And if we do add it, how? Should we add a new row of 4 and add 4 new people or just add one person to each of the existing rows so we will have 3 rows of 5 people? Waiting for comments! Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 10:49, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Changed some of the images so they would be close to the same size! Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 16:36, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

This page has a really nice selection. I suggested one on British Jews which looks like it!!! 176.27.7.64 (talk) 15:28, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

I did a small change in that brilliant selection. I added Maya Plisetskaya to increase female representation, instead of Leon Bakst, because there are enough painters. 90.216.193.145 (talk) 12:19, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Numbers of those killed during the Holocaust

Of the 3 million left in occupied areas, the vast majority is thought to have perished in German concentration camps.

The Holocaust

Holocaust in Russia and The Holocaust

Over two million Soviet Jews are believed to have died during the Holocaust, second only to the number of Polish Jews to have fallen victims to Hitler. --

You have posted first that the 'vast majority is thought' to have died; then in the next section it says 'over two million are believed.." this is pretty vague language. Between two million and three million means one million people ... Shouldn't this be clarified? Valleyspring (talk) 07:50, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

"By the end of 1942, 1.4 million Jews had been killed by the Einsatzgruppen that followed the German army eastward; by the end of the war, nearly two million had been murdered in Russia and Eastern Europe. Of the six million Jews who perished in the Holocaust, about one-third fell in the territories of the USSR.

"[The Complete Black Book of Russian Jewry] can claim to be the most complete of all: it contains the full "official" text as well as all the materials that Soviet censorship excised in the main accounts of local collaboration. It is a translation of the Russian text published in Vilnius in 1993 (although without the photo-documentation of that edition). In this edition, materials that were removed by the censor are included in brackets." source: amazon.com, Black Book of Soviet Jewry.Valleyspring (talk) 04:59, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

The following section needs to be updated

"Expelled en masse from England, France, Spain and most other Western European countries at various times, and persecuted in Germany in the 14th century, many Western European Jews naturally accepted Polish ruler Casimir III the Great's invitation to settle in Polish-controlled areas of Eastern Europe as a third estate, performing commercial, middleman services in an agricultural society for the Polish king and nobility between 1330 and 1370, during Casimir the Great's reign. Approximately 85 percent of the Jews in Poland during the 14th century were involved in estate management, tax and toll collecting, money lending or trade.[citation needed"

This has been shown to be patently false by genetics, the idea that many of the ashkenazi russian jews were derived from sephardic immigrants from the spanish and portuguese expulsions. DNA shows that virtually all Russian Jews derive from a population of Jewish males who moved from Northern Italy and Greece into central europe and so forth, while marrying indigenous women,

As an aside, this implies that Russian Jews are not even Jewish by Jewish law as one is jewish by ones mother being Jewish- there is also no legiiamate evidence of conversion among the indigenous women...

Enlarged Jewish population

We do not have a definition of what "enlarged Jewish population" means.Patapsco913 (talk) 13:00, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

[4][5]. 176.26.247.147 (talk) 20:40, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Requested move (2014)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure) DavidLeighEllis (talk) 01:28, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

---

History of the Jews in Russia → Russian Jews – This article is mainly about a sub-group of an ethnic group [being Ashkenazi Jews] and also for being of interest to Wikiproject ethnic groups. I'm aware that most of the article discusses history, but there are articles of other sub-ethnic groups that mostly discuss that as well. An example would be Chinese Indonesians which is a great article. If by some reason the article isn't renamed, then the ethnic group infobox's information [not the infobox itself] should be moved towards the bottom of the article in a section called Present Demographics below historical demographics. Khazar (talk) 01:51, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

• Unsure, leaning support. I'd love to see some expert opinions. Red Slash 18:39, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. The title "Russian Jews" is a terrible title. What is a Russian Jew? It's not clear Who is a Jew?. To make it more confusing, there is a historical debate about who is considered to be Russian. The debate of Россияни vs Русские. The citizens of the Russian Federation or an ethnic group of Russians who live anywhere in the world? The existing title History of the Jews in Russia clearly explains what the article is about. USchick (talk) 17:47, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

A terrible title? Based on what grounds? Your Opinions? Russian Jews are a sub-ethnic group of Ashkenazi Jews just as the Volga Germans are of the Germans or the [Han] Chinese Indonesians are of Han Chinese. There is hardly any confusion with who is a Russian and who is not. Russians are an East Slavic ethnic group who are related to Ukrainians and Belorussians and aren't multiracial. A Russian Jew is simply an Ashkenazi Jew born or has lived in Russia for more than a generation, it's not that difficult to understand. There were also very few conversions to Judaism so Russian Jews are not only culturally distinct, but also ethnically distinct. Khazar (talk) 00:47, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Did you read what I said? If it's not clear Who is a Jew? then what is a "Russian Jew?" USchick (talk) 00:51, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Irrelevant. Jews are a race, an ethnic group, and a people who practice Judaism. In this case, it's an ethnic group at hand. Notice Wikiprojects Ethnic Groups is interested in this article and it's mid importance. Khazar (talk) 01:01, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Extremely relevant. Some Jews are an ethnic group. Which ones? There is no "Jewish race" and to claim such is ridiculous. Your simplification of the subject matter is not helping at all. Labeling people as "Russian Jews" is against policy Neutral, OR, and probably several others. USchick (talk) 02:02, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Russians are not multiracial? Really? Afro-Russian. USchick (talk) 02:36, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Ethnic Russians are not multiracial. Afro-Russians are citizens of the Russian federation, nothing more. There is a Jewish race. Countless genetic studies prove that all Oriental, Sephardic, and Ashkenazi Jews have substantial Israelite ancestry. You'll also have to be clear about how I violated Wikipedia:OR and Wikipedia:POV considering that I didn't invent nor popularize the term "Russian Jew" and it has been used countless times to describe the ethnicities of Ashkenazi Jews born in Russia or who have had parents/grandparents born in Russia. Khazar (talk) 05:30, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Where is Russia? Is Crimea in Russia? What about Ashkenazi Jews in Crimea? Are they Russian? If Putin decides to annex all of Ukraine, will the Jews who live there become Russian? Why or why not? USchick (talk) 12:48, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't know if Crimea is Russian land or not. In fact nobody does at the moment because there are countries that won't recognize the referendum. Khazar (talk) 22:24, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Since "Russia" can't be defined, and "Jews" can't be defined, "Russian Jews" is a terrible title. If Wikiprojects Ethnic Groups is interested in this article, why is it necessary to change the name? Perhaps you can start a new discussion and outline their concerns. USchick (talk) 22:40, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Russia and Jews can be defined. All you did was ask a hypothetical question which doesn't have a large impact on the subject at hand considering Jews are 0.2% of Crimeas's population. Khazar (talk) 23:06, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

The question is not hypothetical. In Crimea, it's 40,000 people. Is that insignificant to you? Countries change their borders ALL the time, you can't go by that. In any case, you don't have the support to change the title. USchick (talk) 00:56, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

This topic needs to be listed in the Jewish and Russian history sections for additional comments before a move can take place. Can someone list it please? Thanks. USchick (talk) 02:11, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose ok Mr. Al Khazar. First of all yes most Jews in Russia are Ashkenazi. However according to our Mizrahi Jews article 200 Jews in Russia are Mizrahi. Not to mention I found this source http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Sephardim which also states there are a few Sephardim in Russia. Now who is a Jew is extremely hard to find. Jews come from many ethnic groups (mostly Ashkenazi or Sephardim but there are some from other ethnic groups), nationalities, political beliefs and most importantly religions. Jewish converts both in and out of Judaism as well as intermarriage impact this question. Also Jews can't even seem to agree. For example, Orthodox Jews only regard one as Jewish if there mother is Jewish. Karaites only regard one as Jewish if your father is Jewish. There is also a question of whether these Jews in defining the heritage are defining exclusively the right to practice the religion (correctly) or whether they are also denying them access to the heritage and culture. So guess what Jews can be of many ethnicities, nationalities, political identities and religious beliefs (including non-Jewish ones). I think we should focus on Jews IN Russia and not Russian (huh, ethnic or national) and Jews (huh ethnic, national, religious (and according to which branch)).-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 03:10, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the inquiry. But there are important points you've missed. 200 Mizhrahi Jews is not a substantial amount and referring to those numbers only strengthens the disambiguouation of the term. I'd also like to take note that your own link doesn't even support your claim because it refers to the Balkans and the Ottoman empire as Eastern Europe; not Russia. Another important note is that those who did venture to "Eastern Europe" were merchants and not permenant residents, at least according to that link you provided. Furthermore, the term Russian Jew is exclusively used to describe those of Ashkenazi descent here on wikipedia. The other Jews are known as Mountain Jews and aren't specific to a certain country. Karaites are from Crimea so I'm not sure how that will affect the definition of who is a Russian Jew and who isn't. I also want to ask why the Jewish community's definitions of "Jew" is that important when genetics have shown that Ashkenazi Jews, including Ashkenazi Russians, are genetically homogenous and differ from the host population? Khazar (talk) 05:59, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

First of all, I don't know much about you. Your profile is very vague but what I can tell you is that you are definitely confusing two very important things. The Crimean Karaites who are a small ethnic group which btw now mostly practices Chrisitianity and Karaite Judaism which is what the Crimean Karaites used to practice and what is still considered a small but significant branch of Judaism. Karaites reject the authority of the oral law and ONLY recognize Patrialineal descent. Please see http://www.karaite-korner.org/. If you do not know about the basic branches of the Jewish community you should probably not be doing editing to Jewish articles. This article is clearly about the history of Jews in the Russian Federation AND NOT about Russian Jews (which I know from personal experience are not always Ashkenazi (especially not always pure Ashkenazi) and are not always Rabbinic (yeah you probably want to look up what that means as it won't make sense if you don't know about Karaite Judaism.)) You can make great contributions to Wikipedia I have no doubt. You are intelligent and above all passioned on your side of the argument but you need to do more research and understand especially Karaite Judaism and how they have drastically changed what it means to be a Jew. I wish you luck!-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 06:24, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Oppose, is this for real? First that user, 'Khazar', advances the theory that Ashkenazi Jews (Russian Jews included, of course) have no history but simply emerged as descendants of Khazar converts, and now he proposes omitting the word "history" from this article's title. Not going to happen. If you look at the Template:Jews and Judaism in Europe, or at articles Jews in any other given country for that matter, you'll see that they are all written as "History of the Jews in ___". If anything, this article's title should be changed to "History of the Jews and Judaism in Russia", with more information added. Yambaram (talk) 08:02, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes this is for "real". I have never nor will I ever advocate the Khazar theory of Ashkenazi ancestry. I've never mentioned a link between the two groups and I've never even mentioned both in the same post so I'd like to know why you would accuse me of being an advocate. I've already mentioned that Ashkenazi Jews [including Russian Jews] are primarily middle Eastern in origin [according to genetic studies] which presents a strong contradiction to your paranoid accusation. I wanted the article renamed because it seems to be more about a sub-ethnic group rather than their history. Khazar (talk) 22:24, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Yeah I'm also trying to assume good faith but that username Al Khazar could definitely suggest an alterior motive. The whole Khazar theory was originally written in an antisemitic book called The Thirteenth Tribe which might I add is also proven to be overexaggerated by geneticists. Yes the Khazars did affect the genetics of Ashkenazi Jews but these two sources state that that affects only about 12% of Ashkenazi Jews today. http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v13/n3/full/5201319a.html http://news.sciencemag.org/europe/2010/06/tracing-roots-jewishness I really think this should be brought up to the Administrator's Noticeboard but don't quite know how to phrase it properly to be put on there.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 09:00, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

You shouldn't be so prejudiced to assume such a thing from me. My name is by no means antisemitic and I've also mentioned that Ashkenazi Jews have substantial Israelite ancestry [something we can both agree on] and I've never made a connection with them and Khazars. Do you want to know why I chose this username? Because I'm fascinated with Turkic peoples and their history and there isn't any evidence present to contradict me. Interesting that you say you're assuming good faith but paradoxically, you want to report me for antisemetic motives. That's not being WP:CIVIL Khazar (talk) 22:24, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Poster discussion

White movement propaganda poster from the Russian Civil War era (1919), depicting a caricature of Leon Trotsky as a red devil with a stereotype Jewish appearance, and Chinese soldiers below, wearing braids and blue and gold uniforms.

The caption claims that the pose has a "stereotype Jewish appearance." Can someone please clarify? The star on the chain is a 5 pointed star, what makes this pose a Jewish stereotype? And is there a source to back up this claim? USchick (talk) 17:33, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

The star is suppose to be the star of David, even though it's five pointed as you said. But then again, he only has four toes. So do want an explanation for why he's missing a toe? The description should be changed to: "White movement propaganda poster from the Russian Civil War era (1919), depicting a caricature of Leon Trotsky as a red devil with Chinese soldiers below, wearing braids and blue and gold uniforms."

Like you said, there's no visible Jewish stereotype here; just a caricature. Khazar (talk) 00:52, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. USchick (talk) 02:31, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion, they "highlighted" his "Jewish looks" very obviously, and as an artist, I do see the conscious decision to make a dig against the Jews in the poster. When someone tells a story (talk) 09:41, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Is there a reliable source to support this assessment? USchick (talk) 15:41, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Here are some sources: Niall Ferguson: The War of the World: History's Age of Hatred, Fig.11, Constance Harris: The Way Jews Lived: Five Hundred Years of Printed Words and Images, p. 376. --Off-shell (talk) 20:25, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

The new collage

I made a new and improved collage for the article. The main reason was because of my boldness to do so. If you don't like the collage, feel free to alter the size, change the personnel, and/or purge. But if you do so, please state your reasons here and I'll be happy to co-operate. Khazar (talk) 22:41, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your effort. Is there a shortage of actual Russian people who are Jewish? It's not clear why Americans of Russian descent are included. Also not clear why non Jewish people of Jewish lineage, generations back are included (like Lenin). It would be more accurate and respectful to include people who are actually Russian and Jewish (as opposed to their family members who used to be Russian or Jewish). I propose that the list should include: Mila Kunis, a Russian oligarch, a historical figure like Baal Shem Tov, a Russian politician (who is not an oligarch) Category:Jewish Russian politicians, a scientist Russian Jewish Scientists, an artist/entertainer, an athlete, a human rights activist like Andrei Sakharov (or maybe there's a better one), and an Orthodox Jew Category:Russian Orthodox Jews. USchick (talk) 15:22, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the inquiry. The reason I added Americans was because many are second and third generation immigrants. However, since this is about the history of Russian Jews, then the collage should be restricted to those born in Russia. If you feel the need to add anything, be sure to replace rather than add because >15 people is too many when using collage frames this size. Khazar (talk) 18:27, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Totally agree that people who were not born in Russia/Russian empire should not be included! Mila Kunis is not from Russia but from Ukraine. If she would be born in the Russian Empire I would support it, but she wasn't, it was the Ukrainian SSR. Baal Shem Tov would be a great addition, but the problem is we don't have an original portrait of him (the one used is more likely to be of someone from England). Andrei Sakharov is not Jewish. 2.124.27.175 (talk) 00:52, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Our choices don't oppose one another. Just you know, I didn't actually add all those people to the article. The odd ones were added by another user and I recommend that you at least readopt the style of collage. See Ashkenazi Jews to get an idea of what it's like. Khazar (talk) 03:00, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

The inclusion in the collage of random American people is beyond absurd. This article is about Russian Jews (not American people), and should only include actual members of the Russian Jewish community (even Mila Kunis, for example, is of Ukrainian background). Avaya1 (talk) 17:49, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Ida Rubinstein is just as Ukrainian as Mila Kunis. The introduction to this article talks about the Russian Empire, not the Russian Federation. USchick (talk) 18:16, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Ida Rubinstein was born in the Russian Empire, Mila Kunis was born in the Ukrainian SSR, that is the difference. The Russian Empire was Russia, but the Ukrainian SSR wasn't. 2.124.27.175 (talk) 00:54, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Mila Kunis is from Chernivtsi, which is today culturally Ukraine (and historicaly Romania). We already used her in the infobox for the History of the Jews in Ukraine. Ida Rubinstein was from Saint Petersburg or Kharkov, and certainly grew up in Saint Petersburg and was based in the city. Avaya1 (talk) 18:46, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Removing Isaac Asimov is a bit uncalled for considering that he was born in Russia, just like Sergei Brin. The latter also happens to remain in the collage. They should both be included in the collage. Khazar (talk) 18:22, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Asimov left when he was 3 years old, so he is surely not a strong reflection of the subject of the article, which is the History of the Jews in Russia. He is suitable in the article - the History of the Jews in America. He was American through and through. Also to be a 'Russian Jew' in a cultural sense, at a minimum requires knowledge of the Russian-language. Avaya1 (talk) 18:42, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Whatever. Could you change the photo for Grigori Perelman? The landscape image is quite the eyesore. Khazar (talk) 22:42, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Even though I agree this article should not have American-born people in the collage, I do think people who were born in Russia belong here, regardless of the age they moved to America, because they are still Russian Jews in a way, Russian born anyway. 2.124.27.175 (talk) 00:48, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

I reverted it to the old collage. Sorry, but you can't do it without discussion first. Action first, talk later is not how it works. The main reason for my boldness in reverting it back to the collage that was present here for ages is: The old collage was tidy, not too big, representing the Jews of the Russia well. The old collage simply looks great esthetically and in terms of selection, and there is a reason no one tried to delete it or revert it. You got rid of it, without giving any reason as to why you did it.

Your collage is with pictures of different sizes, some people added without any logical explanation (why do we need Kantarovich if we already have Landau to represent the exact sciences?), and over-blown. The new collage... did you know that Vladimir Vysotsky saw himself as a Russian Orthodox Christian? Yes, he had a Jewish father, but we have no evidence he ever referred to himself as a Jew. Same story about Mikhail Fradkov. Does Russia actually lack people who actually see themselves as Jews, and don't just have someone Jewish in the family? And same thing Gary Kasparov. Is there a problem in finding a Jewish chess champion that we need someone who sees himself as a Christian and never referred to himself as a Jew (oh yes, we already have one, Botvinnik)?

And for real, you actually added Lucy Dubinchik... who even heard of her outside Israel?? She doesn't even have an English Wikipedia article. In fact, even most Israelis have no idea of who she is.

And that is all before even mentioning the people you deleted! You actually deleted Abraham Goldfaden, the "father" of modern Yiddish theater, Yiddish which is the base of Ashkenazi culture. You deleted Osip Mandelstam, one of the greatest Russian poets. You got rid of Golda Meir, an Israel prime minister and only the third woman in the world to do so. Most irritating, you deleted Sholem Aleichem, the greatest Yiddish author ever. That is not boldness, that just doesn't make any sense. What is the point of deleting those truly notable people for Lucy?

I don't see a point in creating a messy new collage full of people with Jewish origin only on their fathers side or people without articles on English Wikipedia. If you want to suggest any changed you are more than welcome, but each and every one of them should be brought up first on the talk page and discussed. Sometimes I feel like people make collages just for the sake of saying they made one or to feel they gave something to the article. If it's not broken, don't fix it. If you want to improve something, discuss first. boldness is useful in case of a situation where the changes are "obvious" or where the article is "asking for it", not in a case where something looks nice and is a sensitive topic (collages were always a controversial thing on Wikipedia).2.124.27.175 (talk) 00:12, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Material from deleted article Jews and Communism

Just a heads-up that IP 184.101.78.153 is trying to add into History_of_the_Jews_in_Russia#Jews_in_the_revolutionary_movement some of the material deleted as part of Jews and Communism (diff).

See also

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jews and Communism (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/Jews_and_Communism_(2nd_nomination)

et al

Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 11:22, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Avaya1, please stop doing controversial changes to the infobox without discussion

A discussion moved from the talk page of Avaya1. Such a discussion should be held on the talk page of the article and not on a private talk page.

"There was a discussion"? Really? Is that what you call a discussion? Half of the people he added are not even Jewish by the Jewish law nor they ever identified as Jews themselves (Jews only on the fathers side), and he removed every representative of the Yiddish culture. If you would be familiar with his posts you would know he promotes the Khazar hypothesis and has a history of pushing stuff into collages without discussion. If you agree with him, fair play, but use the discussion first will you? So far there was no discussion, he even admitted it and said he was being "bold". 2.124.5.254 (talk) 15:15, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I really don't get why you choose to edit war over it. If you think any of the individuals added by Khazar are good ideas, feel free to start a discussion about them. He admitted himself there was no discussion, so what is the point in your weird revert war? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.124.27.175 (talk) 17:42, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

I really don't get your problem. Do you think it's funny? Do you have some mental issue? I mean, you are reverting to a version without discussion and that has people who are so not notable that they don't even have a Wikipedia article. And referring to me as a sock... really? Using my IP because I can't be bothered registering=being a sock? You need to get your terminology straight. Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 11:30, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

You keep removing the collage, without any explanation. Now it seems to involve the fact that one or two of the people in the collage are half-Jews? To me, removing it because of this seems to be borderline racism (although one quite common against people of mixed heritage). As for the Khazar user, actually the present collage is different to his one. Avaya1 (talk) 20:47, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

You really must be taking the piss. You are trying to push a collage which was not discussed, a collage without notable people like Sholem Aleichem, a collage that includes this Lucy Dubchik or whatever which doesn't even have a Wikipedia page cause no one heard of her outside a small community in Israel, and the main point is... as I said, it's a collage with no consensus. It does look like you are doing it as a game just to be "naughty", grow up. The collage I revert to is the collage that was there for ages. If you want to change anything, add anyone, start a discussion.

And one more thing. How the hell is me saying we shouldn't put people who are half Jewish and don't see themselves as Jews is racism? If someone is half Jewish and consider themselves Jews, they fully qualify, it's not about being half Jewish. People like Vladimir Vysotsky though, who is half Jewish, yet never referred to himself as a Jew, always called himself a Russian and was Orthodox Christian (many of his songs had Christian themes)... obviously he doesn't qualify.

You've been on Wikipedia for a while, should no the procedures... and here you are behaving like a troll trying to push a messed up collage with people like Lucy Dubchik without even once using the talk page. What's your problem?

You can't get rid of a good old collage that in my opinion makes perfect sense without a discussion. How can you have a Russian Jews collage without GOlda Meir and Sholem Aleiche, but with people who don't consider themselves Jewish and never did?? If person X and person Y are both half Jewish, yet X sees himself as a Jew and Y doesn't, X is a Jew and Y isn't, why? Because they said so. How is that "borderline racism"? 2.124.5.254 (talk) 22:51, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

I understand that you want to include Sholem Aleichem, which makes sense and I agree with. Excluding Vysotsky because he was half-Jewish, doesn't make sense. He has a lot of Jewish themes in his works, including one of his most famous songs, he wasn't an 'Orthodox Christian' (he was presumably secular), and he represents the history of the community which the article represents (in which a large proportion, even the majority, have inter-married). Finally, the Israeli actress I can agree with - but it would be worthwhile to find another Israeli entry, since a large proportion of the community now live in Israel. And Golda Meir, is really not categorizable as a Russian-Jew. She was born in Ukraine, and grew up in the US. Avaya1 (talk) 17:59, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Again, any change you want to offer you need to bring up on the talk page. I am not saying to exlude Vysotsky because he is "only" half Jewish, if he would consider himself a Jew I would be pro. The fact is, he always considered himself a Russian Christian (many songs about churches) and never spoke about Jews or his connection to them, he always identified as a Russian. Listen to songs like Kupola. And he wasn't secular, how much did you read about him? He believed in Jesus and went to Church. Again, weather he should or should not be in the collage... you can't just "sprung" it on the collage without discussing it on the talk page first, just like I might think Leva from Bi-2 should be in the collage but I can't just add him without a discussion on the talk page. Again, did it really make sense to delete Abraham Goldfaden, the founder of the modern Jewish theater, for someone who clearly didn't see himself as a Jew and was known to be a Christian??

About the Israeli entry... we did have a great entry! Golda Meir, and she is a Russian Jew because at the time she was born there was no Ukraine. Same Sholem Aleichem, he was born in what is today Ukraine, but whenever he spoke about where he'd from he said Russia (actually, so did Golda Meir on her certificates). People who were born and grew up in the Ukrainian SSR or Modern Ukraine couldn't be classified as Russian Jews even if they refer to themselves this way. However, those who were born at a time when Ukraine was a part of the Russian Empire are Russian Jews (their country of birth was written as Russia wherever they immigrated). And again, why are we discussing it here? It all should be discussed on the talk page, with more people, before you trying to revert war and delete stuff).

There were other sections in the article which I thought were places as a joke or to take the piss out of the article.

* Garry Kasparov, his dad is Jewish, yet, but he made sure to change his Jewish surname, and described himself as a Kasparov has described himself as a "self-appointed Christian". Did it really make sense to delete Botvinnik for him??

* Some characters I would think were put in by an anti-Semite. Mikhail Fradkov, his dad is Jewish, he considers himself an Orthodox Christian (just look up the article about him), and he is known in Russia for his involvement in corruption. Another person... Roman Abramovich, at last, someone who does see himself as a Jew, but do we really need someone involved in corruption and known for the "dodgy" way he made his fortune in the image?? Do we really need to "feed" on anti-Semitic portrayals?

For me it's simple. I don't care if someone is fully Jewish or half Jewish, it's about self identification and notability. If someone is Jewish only from the dads side and considers himself a Russian Christian, they shouldn't be in the article. Not because they are Jewish "only" on the dads side, but because they are considering themselves to be Orthodox Christian and obviously not Jewish. 2.124.5.254 (talk) 14:41, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Some selections you proposed I actually don't oppose, but I oppose you trying to "push" them in without a discussion or consensus. Example. Pasternak, why not?? He looks like a good option, but is he a better option that Osip Mandelstam that you deleted? I'm not saying he isn't, I'm just saying it's something that needs to be discussed. Lev Shestov? Great idea! I actually love it and think we should add him to the infobox. NOT instead of someone, but in addition to the existing ones. Same about Leonid Kantorovich or Grigori Perelman (I am against adding both of them because that will be over-representation for the exact science). About Ida Rubinstein... just wow! I love it! Great idea, there are obviously not enough women in the collage. Why not?? But again, let's discuss it on the article talk page, let's try and "formulate" something we agree one and only THEN change something which was here for ages. 2.124.5.254 (talk) 14:50, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I added 4 of your suggestions as a new line to the original collage:

File:Boris Pasternak cropped.jpg

I hope no one is against it, and I think it actually makes sense. All the 4 were your suggestions, all the 4 identified themselves as Jews through their lives, and definitely qualify by notability standards. 2.124.5.254 (talk) 15:02, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I also changed some of the images to bigger ones to balance the lines out in length. 2.124.5.254 (talk) 15:13, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

There is no consensus to add Golda Meir and Isaac Asimov. Neither are Russian in any way, or ever had Russian citizenship, language, nationality of culture. Gold Meir was Ukrainian-born, and grew up in the US, later becoming an Israeli. Isaac Asimov spent three-years in Russia, couldn't speak any Russian, and was 100% an American. We have infoboxes for them - History of the Jews in the Ukraine, Israeli Jews and American Jews. Adding them to this category (which they don't belong to), is nonsensical and extremely misleading for an encyclopedia. There are real Russian Jews, who represent the subject of the article, and those are the people who belong in the infobox. Avaya1 (talk) 15:19, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

"There is no consensus to add Golda Meir and Isaac Asimov"? Are you taking the piss? They area already IN the consensus, they have always been in those collages. If anything, there is no consensus to REMOVE Golda Meir and Isaac Asimov. Just because you don't think they should be in the collage doesn't mean they shouldn't, there is a reason until you showed up they have always been in the collage, and will stay here unless after a proper discussion a new consensus will be achieved.

When Golda Meir was born it was a part of the Russian empire and in every document she wrote that she was born in Russia or the Russian empire. Isaac Asimov was born in a part which even now is Russia. They were both born in Russia/Russian empire, therefore, there are no issues regarding where they were born.

If Isaac Asimov would be born in the US, I would agree with you, but he didn't. About the culture thing... shat culture do you think they had at home? And everyone knows Golda Meir spoke Yiddish, isn't that the culture of Russian Jews (at the time)?

Just because a Jew moved to another country doesn't change the fact where he or she were born.

And why do you think you have a monopoly deciding who is a "real Russian Jew"? Most people would obviously disagree with you. The fact is, it was decided in past collages to have both of them in. And you trying to say Jews born in Ukraine when it was still Russian empire are ONLY Ukrainian Jews and not Russian Jews... that's just laughable.

If you want to get rid of two people, as long as you edit war you will be reverted and ignored. You want to achieve something?? Discuss. And who said you are the one to decide who will go in their place?? Again, a matter of consensus. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 21:49, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Again, Avaya1, you fail to use the talk page

No, you can't remove Isaac Asimov and Golda Meir because they "left Russia at a young age", not without a consensus. They have been here on practically every collage ever used for this article, and for a reason. If you feel like they should be removed, start a discussion and see where it gets you. Without it, you can't just delete two people because you feel like they are not Russian enough. They were born in Russia, therefore, Russian Jews. 2.124.5.254 (talk) 22:04, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Golda Meir was never even in Russia, she is from the Ukraine. There is no consensus to add Golda Meir and Isaac Asimov. Neither are Russian in any way, or ever had Russian citizenship, language, nationality or culture. Gold Meir was Ukrainian-born, and grew up in the US, later becoming an Israeli. Isaac Asimov spent three-years in Russia, couldn't speak any Russian, and was 100% an American. We have infoboxes for them - History of the Jews in the Ukraine, Israeli Jews and American Jews. Adding them to this category (which they don't belong to), is nonsensical and extremely misleading for an encyclopedia. There are real Russian Jews, who represent the subject of the article, and those are the people who belong in the infobox. Avaya1 (talk) 15:19, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

When Golda Meir was born it was a part of the Russian empire and in every document she wrote that she was born in Russia or the Russian empire. Isaac Asimov was born in a part which even now is Russia. They were both born in Russia/Russian empire, therefore, there are no issues regarding where they were born.

If Isaac Asimov would be born in the US, I would agree with you, but he didn't. About the culture thing... shat culture do you think they had at home? And everyone knows Golda Meir spoke Yiddish, isn't that the culture of Russian Jews (at the time)?

Just because a Jew moved to another country doesn't change the fact where he or she were born.

And why do you think you have a monopoly deciding who is a "real Russian Jew"? Most people would obviously disagree with you. The fact is, it was decided in past collages to have both of them in. And you trying to say Jews born in Ukraine when it was still Russian empire are ONLY Ukrainian Jews and not Russian Jews... that's just laughable.

If you want to get rid of two people, as long as you edit war you will be reverted and ignored. You want to achieve something?? Discuss. And who said you are the one to decide who will go in their place?? Again, a matter of consensus. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 21:49, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

This edit war around the collage is certainly a kind of fun, and though I'm not sure that these collages are worth anything at all, let me make a proposal and try to define a common set of criteria. In my opinion, the basic arguments are:

• There is a large number of distinguished persons which would qualify. Therefore one should have no more than one person from each area of activity, and try to cover as broad areas as possible. One should also not put the same image twice on the same page. If one person is shown in the collage, its portrait should not appear in the text body, because there are other distinguished candidates from the same area.
• In the coverage of different areas, one should consider which areas have had especially strong contributions and choose the "granularity" appropriately. E.g. there were so many "stars" in classical music that it is reasonable to make it with "finer" granularity: at least a pianist and a violinist. On the other hand, the contributions in fine arts are less prominent, so it's enough to have one painter, and not necessary to have one for the realism, another for the avant-garde etc.
• Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic countries were at some time part of Russia, but their pages have their own collages. Therefore if there are several strong candidates for the same area, one should try to spread them across the different pages, i.e. put the one on the Russian page, and the other on the Ukrainian one etc.
• Many persons emigrated from Russia and made their careers abroad. If possible, one should choose those who have some cultural connection to Russia, i.e. at least speaks Russian. Thus, e.g. Azimov should not be in the collage.

Applying these rules I would come at this result:

• Painter: Isaac Levitan or Marc Chagall or Leon Bakst. Levitan is on the Lithuanian page, Chagall and Bakst are on the Belarussian page. I would put Bakst here and take him off the Belarussian page and find another person for the Belarussian page (e.g. Boris Gelfand or Yakov Zeldovich). Chagall is somewhat better known, so let the Belarussian page have some famous names.
• Prose writer: Sholom Aleichem or Isaak Babel or Ilya Ilf (possibly with a direct link to Ilf and Petrov, because his own page is very short). Sholom Aleichem and Babel are both on the Ukrainian page. One can take one of them out of that page, and put David Oistrakh, a violinist, instead (they have none at the moment).
• Poet: both Mandestam and Pasternak have well-chosen pictures in the text body which should stay there. But there is another genius which is at least equally renowned: Joseph Brodsky. He is thus the best candidate for the collage.
• Dancer: Maya Plisetskaya. Then her picture (with Putin) should be removed from the text. There are enough famous candidates from the diaspora, e.g. Evgeny Kissin to be put in the text. Then Ida Rubinstein should not be in the collage. But she can stay in the text body.
• Pianist: Anton Rubinstein. Yes, this is the best choice, as the founder of a whole school. Kissin should then be removed from the collage, but can be put in the text body instead of Plisetskaya.
• Violinist: Maxim Vengerov or Leonid Kogan. Other candidates: David Oistrakh I proposed for the Ukrainian page (s. above), Jascha Heifetz is on the Lithuanian page.
• Chessmaster: Mikhail Botvinnik. Same argument as with Rubinstein. Then Kasparov is not a candidate here (but would be a good one for the History of the Jews in Azerbaijan).
• Natural sciences: Landau is also on the Azerbaijani page. He is really the strongest candidate, the founder of a theoretical physics school. Alternatives would be Abram Ioffe and Vitaly Ginzburg.
• Mathematics: Grigori Perelman. Yes, there have been so many contributions in these fields, that one cannot have only one physicist for all exact sciences.
• Business: Sergey Brin. Then his other picture should be removed from the text body. If one needs a picture of a businessman in the diaspora in the text body, Jan Koum would be a good candidate. But there is no picture of him here yet. I think it's not really necessary to have a picture in the body.
• Theater director: Abraham Goldfaden is also on the Ukrainian page. The alternatives would be Solomon Mikhoels (no photo) or Mark Zakharov. Here I'm not sure if one should keep Goldfaden on both pages or choose Zakharov for this page.
• Philosophy: Lev Shestov or Ayn Rand. I would put Shestov on the Ukrainian page, and Rand here.
• Politics: Well, it's hard to find good politicians in Russia or with a strong connection to Russia. Both Golda Meir and Leo Trotsky are on the Ukrainian page. One can take one of them from there and put her/him here. Or skip politics altogether.
• Concerning Leonid Kantorovich, he is both a mathematician and an economist. There is Perelman to represent mathematics. I would consider including or not including Kantorovich depending on the size of the collage.
• My further proposal is to include a theatre/cinema actor and a stand-up comedian. There have been huge contributions in these areas from the Jewish community. The candidates would be Faina Ranevskaya and Arkady Raikin. Alternatively, Raikin could be placed onto the Latvian page.

--Off-shell (talk) 00:17, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

The only problem I have with the collage is the style that's used. The template that should be used should be the one that can be found in the Ashkenazi Jews article. Khazar (talk) 04:23, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I personaly don't have a problem with changing the style, I think the Ashkenazi Jews style is very nice and think it will make the article look much better. The only issue is... in the style of Ashkenazi Jews there is space for 15 people, here we have 16. If we are changing the style, who should be the person removed? I personally think that it should be Isaac Asimov, Boris Pasternak, or Osip Mandelshtam, because we have 4(!) writers in the collage, which I guess is over-representing an area. I on purpose didn't mention Sholem Aleichem because I definitely think Sholem Aleichem should stay, after all, he is the greatest Yiddish writer ever (and was named the Jewish Mark Twain). What are your thought on the topic? Who should be removed? 90.198.246.7 (talk) 07:16, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi, I liked many of the name you proposed (though it would require a radical change to the collage), but I don't think there is a problem in having the same person in few collages. The thing is, until the foundation of the Soviet Union there was a very tiny amount of Jews in the border of modern Russia (the Pale of Settlement), so when you were speaking about Russian Jews at the time, you literally meant the Jews from Ukraine and Belarus. They were the one going through the pogroms, the ones speaking Yiddish, the stereotypical old town "Russian Jews". They didn't define themselves in any other way than Russian Jews, and when they moved to the US or Israel at their country of birth they wrote Russia, because Ukraine and Belarus were non existant terms then. Like if someone was born in Lviv when it was still Poland, they are qualified as Polish Jews even though later it became a part of Ukraine, right? Well that is the same case.

I get your argument some people are being used twice in collages, but I think it's normal. I think they were originally on Russian Jews because they were so notable, and later were used on Ukrainian Jews and Belarusian Jews because... well, they were so notable they were just taken again. I personally think it's good.

I don't agree we should limit ourselves to one person from every area... but we should reduce the amount of representatives of each area, and allow to represent other areas this way, you are completely right in that. Very fair point! We do have 4 writers in the collage, yet except Sholem Aleiche, who I definitely think should be here, I am not bothered who shell be removed out of them. What is your opinion on that?

Painters: I think Chagall is such a huge figure, he should be kept on both Belarusian Jews AND Russian Jews pages. It's funny you mentioned Yakov Zeldovich, I'd love to add him to the Belarussian Jews page! The problem is... we don't have a normal picture of him? Like a normal size one!

Prose Writer: Ilf and Petrov are genius, however, they are known only for two books, and they are not known enough separately but rather as a team. Sholem Aleichem always wrote he was from "Russia" or born in "Russia", and due to his influence on the whole Russian Empire Jewish culture I think he should stay. Isaac Babel... he is such a big figure... amazing idea! Obv he should be in, but instead of who? Instead Pasternak or instead of Asimov? Because we need to be careful with the number of writers. I don't mind instead of whom, Babel definitely should be in.

Poet: I think Joseph Brodsky should be in, but instead of Mandelstam. Having two poets in... isn't it too much? And Brodsky is more known abroad. Your thoughts?

Violinist: The problem with the Violin player, as much as I think Leonid Kogan or David Oistrakh are notable enough... we don't have a good picture of any of them. And who should they go in instead? We do have Anyon Rubinstein representing music, but are the more notable than him?

Mathematics: I agree with Grigori Perelman... problem is, instead of who? I definitely think he should be in, but don't see instead of whom! Instead of... I am not a big fan of idea but don't see another choice, instead of Levitan or Kantorovich? I lean more to instead of Kantorovich, but I really can't decide. There is no one I feel like removing, but I do see that Perelman needs to be in.

Business: We don't have a picture of Jan Koum, and I do believe that Brin's face is very recognizable.

Philosophy: Such a great idea!!! We lack women in the collage, and that does the trick. Nice one! I hope no one minds as I put Ayn Rand in this collage already, it simply is such a good idea to increase the number of women in the collage.

Politics: Golda Meir is the one we have which is great also because of the male/female balaknce, I think Trotsky was avoided due to his "controversy". I really don't agree with it, but I think that's what was discussed on the talk page in the past.

I agree Perelman should replace Kantarovich. The problem is... do we have a normal size of Perelman? How do we make one?

Raikin is a great idea, the only issue is instead of whom but he is a great suggestion!

I loved some of your ideas for the Ukrainian page, do you mind posting them on the Ukrainian Jews talk page, just so we could take it further there as well. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 07:58, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I checked for Grigori Perelman... the problem with his picture is the size, is unusable. Hoe can we reduce it or find one which fits the normal standard used here? 90.198.246.7 (talk) 07:59, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

So based on the proposals so far, might be a bit to early, but what do you think about that version. The design will be 5 lines of 3 like in Ashkenazi Jews, as proposed by user Khazar.

• Sholom Aleichem - Maya Plisetskaya - Abraham Goldfaden
• Marc Chagall - Golda Meir - Joseph Brodsky
• Sergey Brin - Ida Rubinstein - Mikhail Botvinnik
• Lev Landau - Ayn Rand - Isaak Babel
• Arkady Raikin - Faina Ranevskaya - Anton Rubinstein

What do people think so far? I tried incorporating as many suggestions as possible, while not-over representing any area. I also tried to increase the number of women to stick to the equality standards (also, I made sure a woman will be places in the middle of every line, for the sake of esthetics).

The main thing I struggle with, writers. The occupation was over-represented, but what I am not sure is this: Boris Pasternak or Isaac Babel? 90.198.246.7 (talk) 12:19, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

File:Arkady Raikin PSE Russia 2011 Crop.jpgFile:Podkidysh.jpg

Sholom Aleichem • Maya Plisetskaya • Abraham Goldfaden
Marc Chagall • Golda Meir • Joseph Brodsky
Sergey Brin • Lina Stern • Mikhail Botvinnik
Lev Landau • Ayn Rand • Grigori Perelman
Arkady Raikin • Faina Ranevskaya • Anton Rubinstein

Well done! Since a good Pasternak's picture is present in the text (where it fits very well in my opinion), I would prefer Babel. Concerning Perelman, I created a cropped portrait version out of the original one:

I propose to put it instead of Ida Rubinstein, whose other picture may remain in the text body. --Off-shell (talk) 18:35, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I would also propose to keep only one prose writer. Either Shalom Aleikhem or Babel should be enough. Instead, a violinist, like Kogan or Vengerov, would be good. A fiddler is a so typical Jewish occupation :). In addition, Anton Rubinstein lived on the 19th century, and since then there were so many great musicians, that it would be good to place a young one. So I would propose Maxim Vengerov. --Off-shell (talk) 19:26, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Nice!!! Good, now we can use Perelman. Here is the problem with removing Ida Rubinstein, she's a woman. Ideally the situation would be 50% men-50% women, but that's a bit hard to achieve.

About Maxim Vengerov... there are many Jewish violin players who were better then him, I feel like putting him in would be disrespectful to the better ones. Leonid Kogan is a brilliant idea, problem is there is no image of him. But David Oistrakh has plenty, I didn't notice but he has good ones in the common. The question is... instead of whom?

At least for now I'll enter Perelman instead of Babel. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 20:05, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Really so many? :) For my taste, he is the best. :) But I don't pretend to be an expert in the field. To avoid having 2 female dancers, here is a possible female alternative: Lina Stern, a life scientist. --Off-shell (talk) 20:31, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

He is good, but he didn't "revolutionize" anything. Like Oistrakh was unique, he dictated a style. I guess it's like comparing Slash to Jimmy Hendrix. Slash is great, but Hendrix left such a bigger mark.

Such a great idea!!! I never felt fully comfortable with Ida Rubinstein in the first place, I mostly used her for being a woman, but that one is such a better candidate. Nice! Now who should we get out from the collage for a violin player? 90.198.246.7 (talk) 21:16, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps, make one more raw? with Oistrakh, Kantorovich... but then we need one more female in the middle :) May be Yevgenia Ginzburg or Maria Gorokhovskaya (this post stamp is somehow intriguing:))?

I feel like then it will be too big, they tried doing it on Ashkenazi Jews but it looked over loaded and was reverted by a consensus. I thought of instead of Raikin, just because it is English speaking Wikipedia and Raikin didn't really manage to get his name abroad due to the fact his humour is in Russian, but then again... he is the biggest comedian (and most influential) the Soviet Union has ever known, so I really don't know. That's a head ache. Ranevskaya is another person, but again... it will ruin the female line in the middle. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 21:43, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I see. I don't know either. In contrast, Germans page has got 30 pictures (5x6), Rossiyane 32 (8x4), French people 27 (9x3). But these collages indeed don't look nice any more. May be, just leave it as it is now. It is already well balanced. If other editors come up with different ideas, we may revisit it later. Thank you for your commitment. :) --Off-shell (talk) 22:08, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Nice propositions. I just want the template to be the same as the Ashkenazi Jews page because it's much easier to edit and change than the current one. Also, the only featured article that's about an ethnic group (Tamils) uses this style as well. Khazar (talk) 22:14, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I love the whole concept of having the same style for Russian Jews and Ashkenazi Jews. It makes it easier for other to pick a style because they will know there I sort-of a "standard one". 90.198.246.7 (talk) 23:05, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

At least for now it is a good idea to leave it like it is. I have to say, it looks much better then before! 90.198.246.7 (talk) 23:05, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I changed the formatting of the collage in line with Khazar's proposal. I also think this looks better. Furthermore, looking at the Tamil people page, I think one could also make a 4th column here. This will still look good even loosing the male-female symmetry. --Off-shell (talk) 18:00, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Amazing! It does look much better, I didn't know how to do it. Doesn't it look a bit over-crowded the Tamil one? They have so many you don't notice the individual. Also, it does make this page unique, the male-female symmetry. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 18:36, 22 August 2014 (UTC)