Talk:Anthony Watts (blogger)

Inadequate lead

At present, the lead paragraph says nothing about his position on climate change, which is pretty remarkable. I propose to add a sentence to the effect that he opposes the scientific consensus on CC. Thoughts? --JBL (talk) 16:36, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

The lead should summarise the article. By all means, go for it. Just make sure you say what the article says. Guettarda (talk) 17:19, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I took a swing, what do you think? --JBL (talk) 23:01, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Contradictory content.

I removed some contradictory content. The content in question says that he is unwilling to discuss his education, but the very next sentence says that he states that he does not have a degree in climate science. Which is it? We cannot say that he's unwilling to discuss his education when the very next statement shows him discussing his education. Both statements cannot be true. I've been reverted although the summary edit doesn't really explain why other than to claim I'm wrong without providing a reason.[1] Since the other editor didn't provide a reason or start a discussion on the talk page, I'm removing the content per WP:BLPREMOVE. If anyone, including the original editor, disagrees with my edit, then please explain why. Don't just say I'm wrong. That's not an explanation. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:03, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

The second sentence says that he doesn't have a degree, not that he says he doesn't have a degree. There is simply no contradiction whatsoever, and the sentence you're removing is well-sourced and obviously consistent with biographical policies. --JBL (talk) 18:36, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Please read the third source where he says that he is not a degreed climate scientist, but a Certified Broadcast Meteorologist program. Again, how is it possible that he refuses to talk about his education when he's clearly talking about his education? This is not rocket science. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:46, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

And please note that edit-warring to include contentious WP:BLP content is a great way to get blocked or topic-banned. Now, take a step back and actually read the content that you're edit-warring over. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:47, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I would say, AQFK, given that you were previously topic-banned from climate change articles, that you too should tread lightly lest you end up back at WP:AE for edit warring in climate change articles. WP:KETTLE. Your edits appear to be POV-pushing in favor of either concern trolling for this particular person's opposition to mainstream climate science or even spilling over to outright support of climate-change denial. jps (talk) 21:13, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

It's weird to say that Watts is unwilling to discuss it when we're citing a source showing him discussing it, and not citing a source saying he discussed it unwillingly. The removal looks justifiable to me. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 22:51, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

AQFK, your posts have an extremely high bluster-to-content ratio; please knock it off. (You might notice, for example, that BRD is a three-step process and it's the duty of the Bold editor, not the Reverter, to begin talk-page discussion.) On substance: the two sentences in question are not, in fact, contradictory -- the possibly valid assertion is that the statement in the older source is made obsolete by the newer one. I've now corrected this by adding a time-based qualifier to the (properly sourced, obviously BLP-compliant) older claim. --JBL (talk) 16:54, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

JBL: I see on wayback that Watts wrote "I'm not a degreed climate scientist" some time before November 2 2010. The publication date of Grant's book, which I think is what you refer to when you say "the older source", is some time in 2011. How did you calculate age here? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 17:22, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I removed the WP:BLP violation by Joel B. Lewis. The source in question does not state that "and he was at one time unwilling to discuss his education" or anything close to that, nor that "however, and he's been reticent in discussing this." This appears to be unsourced WP:OR based on a misunderstanding of primary sources. Please remember that whenever WP:BLP issues is raised, the burden of proof is on those seeking to restore the contentious content, not the other way around. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:15, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Just to be clear: saying the words "BLP" repeatedly without making any actual claim about the nature of a violation does not and cannot put a burden of proof on anyone else. For a person deeply committed to wiki lawyer-style bullying, you are remarkably inept. Perhaps in your next edit you could make a first attempt at a substantive contribution to the conversation. --JBL (talk) 03:25, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

JBL: I hope that your dispute with A Quest For Knowledge has not caused you to miss the question that I directed to you. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:23, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Peter Gulutzan, sorry for the delay in responding. The status before the recent round of editing was that there were two claims: (1) that Watts does not have a college degree (in any field) and avoids discussing this fact, and (2) that Watts does not have a degree in climate science. The quote that you mention is perfectly consistent with both of these claims. --JBL (talk) 19:24, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

@Joel B. Lewis: Your statement makes no sense as I was extremely explicit in exactly what the WP:BLP violation was: you inserted contentious WP:BLP content that was not supported by the source. As I clearly explained:

The source in question does not state that "and he was at one time unwilling to discuss his education" or anything close to that, nor that "however, and he's been reticent in discussing this."

Which part of this is unclear? You added content that the source doesn't support. I'm not sure how this can get an simpler. All contentious WP:BLP content must be directly supported by the sources. You didn't provide any sources that say that "he was at one time unwilling to discuss his education" or anything close to that, nor that "however, and he's been reticent in discussing this." or anything close to that. This is Wikipedia 101. You have to provide sources. Again, which part of this is unclear? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:50, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Kudos to whomever removed the WP:BLP violation. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:43, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

"Skepticism"

This revert reintroduced the claim that Watts is engaging in skepticism. The implication is that his beliefs are supported by the philosophy of scientific skepticism which is not supported by the sources. It is what Watts and his fellow climate-change-disbelievers call themselves, but Wikipedia should not be in the business of adopting their philosophical approaches. We need to neutrally describe his opposition and calling it "skeptical" is not neutral.

jps (talk) 21:21, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

The article doesn't say Watts is into "the philosophy of scientific skepticism" so I see no relevance. Watts is an acceptable source about his own beliefs, and no evidence has been supplied that the term is not neutral. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 23:08, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Using the term "skepticism" in Wikipedia's voice is to endorse the claim that Watts is a proper skeptic which is to say that he engages in scientific skepticism. If you want to quote Watts on his beliefs, do so. Put it in quotation marks, then. jps (talk) 18:35, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

It says he's "skeptical about..." He's not - he rejects the mainstream scientific view. Guettarda (talk) 22:12, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Scientific skepticism isn't in the article, and the phrase "skeptical about ..." isn't in the article. Anybody got anything to say about the article, or is this over? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 03:01, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

More important point: pedantry of this sort is incredibly inane, and never convinces anyone of anything, so just amounts to posturing and time-wasting. Less important point: the actual phrase in the article is "[Watts's] skepticism about ...." --JBL (talk) 03:22, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

JBL: In accordance with WP:CIVIL I will merely say at this stage that your remark above "might be considered uncivil". When Guettarda put a phrase inside quote marks, I believe it should be understandable that I took it as an attempt to make an exact quote, inasmuch as that's what quote marks are for. That doesn't mean I'm unaware that there's some sort of concern about skepticism, and perhaps we need no longer be diverted by talk of scientific skepticism, but you didn't respond to my suggestion that evidence is required, so why get impatient when I don't respond to your demand that I put parts of the article inside quote marks? --

"Skeptic" and related terms are the point-of-view of Watts and company. We can attribute his belief about that, but we should not adopt it Wikipedia's voice. We need a neutral phrasing. jps (talk) 16:12, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Despite your "reticence" I've seen that you've put your theory on WP:FTN the Wikipedia:Fringe Theories Noticeboard. I'll explain there why you've gone to the wrong place. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 17:54, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually, you cooked your own goose with that one. Most of the reliable sources use some form of the word "denial". So if you want to go by the admin's "ruling" (which is not how WP:AN works, incidentally), we'd have to change all the instances of "climate change skeptics" to "climate change deniers". So, let's move on and get to WP:NPOV, shall we? jps (talk) 05:10, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

I pointed you to an administrator's ruling (by which I mean an administrator's official conclusion on WP:ANI) beginning with the words "Use what the sources say ..." here. I said that if you want to override it you have to go to an administrator's forum (by which I mean a forum where an administrator makes rulings rather than a talk shop). Now, what do you mean? Do you accept it or do you want to override it? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:29, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

So it is your position we should change all instances of "skepticism" with "denial" since that's what the preponderance of the most reliable sources say? Do you accept it? If not, take your own advice. I'm satisfied that I'm on the right side here. jps (talk) 17:05, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

No that is not my position, because I accept the administrator's ruling. Now, once again: Do you accept it or do you want to override it? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 17:51, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

The admin's "ruling" is that we should do what the sources do. The most reliable sources call Watts a denier. So.... you connect the dots. jps (talk) 02:25, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Over-coverage of Surface Stations using primary sources

Wikipedia articles report on a topic from a distance by summarizing secondary sources. Extensive use of primary sources tends toward original research and often verges on being promotional (whether intentional or unintentional). Connecting together material from primary sources is almost always original research. Wikipedia doesn't give a play-by-play detailed breakdown of events via primary sources. Also remember, "Points that are not discussed in independent sources should not be given any space in articles" (WP:FRIND).

Apart from the use of primary sources, the Surface Stations section was disproportionately large; huge, even. I've rewritten the section using three of the best secondary sources that cover it.

There is also the problem of interpreting the Menne et al paper that rebutted Watts. The Wikipedia article gave a long quote from the paper which had the effect of placing undue weight on particulars while missing the much more important part of the conclusion: "we find no evidence that the CONUS average temperature trends are inflated due to poor station siting". Giving prominence to that long excerpt suggested that there is more "controversy" than there actually is. Manul ~ talk 18:58, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

The change added a non-self-pub blog post as a source and WP:BLPSPS applies so I undid it. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 19:30, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Peter Gulutzan, I guess you mean Carbon Brief, which is certainly a reliable source to rebut fringe claims -- see WP:PARITY. Watts advances a fringe position and his report was not peer reviewed, hence PARITY. If you like, we may remove the issue of the Muller paper being publicized before peer review; that way, we needn't reference Carbon Brief. Manul ~ talk 19:45, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Manul: Indeed, Carbon Brief. I don't know whether the rest of the (rather large) change is any good, but the blog was my only reason for undoing. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 20:14, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Dave souza, my change to the section was in the direction of removing whitewashing and removing material that promoted Watts' view. There was undue weight on fringe claims sourced to Watts himself. Wikipedia isn't a platform for promoting Watts' particular fringe views; we only consider inclusion when independent sources report upon them. Manul ~ talk 21:20, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry to be a bit slow on coming back on this, my feeling was that significant points were left out, but you certainly stripped it down to more proportionate coverage. Have reinstated it, with points reintroduced: have yet to go over the BEST issue, the Guardian/Carbon Brief article covers aspects well but if that's too arguable we can review the paragraph on the basis of the other sources. . dave souza, talk 21:19, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

The Souleymane, Watts, et al paper was another of the primary sources that needed independent coverage for inclusion. In all, there isn't much scientific controversy in this surface station topic, right? We needn't belabor the point. I was going to keep the bit about Watts' reaction to the BEST findings, but then I read in the Guardian article that Muller contradicted the claim. I suppose we could cover that controversy in a controversy, but I ended up just dropping it. Manul ~ talk

Improving the lead

• The lead of a BLP, particularly the first sentence, is about why the person is notable -- why there is a Wikipedia article about this person. All sources point to Watts being known for blogging (look at title of the article) about climate change denialism.

• Wikipedia doesn't list credentials in the lead like that. For example we don't write "M.D." or "Ph.D." in the first sentence of a BLP, much less "AMS seal holder". See WP:CREDENTIAL.

• Use of a primary source like nvsos.gov is verboten; for one thing, it gives his personal address. See WP:BLPPRIVACY.

• Watts identifies himself as a former meteorologist on his website, and BBC News confirms it. Since this is not a self-serving or extraordinary claim, I added the primary source for good measure.

Manul ~ talk 21:10, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

I left the section "Improving the lead" alone, but the change did the opposite of improving, and I have reverted it. There seems to be a belief that if Michael E. Mann disparages WUWT, that's enough of a fact that it should go in the article lead. But we already have three disparaging comments about WUWT, and zero complimenting comments, in the right section -- the section about WUWT. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 21:31, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Peter Gulutzan, you restored a link in direct violation of WP:BLPPRIVACY. (I shouldn't need to quote a policy in order to convince someone not to give out a personal address on Wikipedia.) Please self-revert immediately.

The lead is supposed to summarize the article. Now the lead doesn't even mention what his blog is about, which is quite bizarre since it's what he is known for. It appears that you wish to attribute the Mann source as if it were a singular opinion. No, Mann reflects the view of independent sources -- per WP:ITA we don't mislead the reader by implying that only Mann holds this view. Manul ~ talk 21:45, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

That happens to be the address of IntelliWeather (it's published on the front page of intelliweather.com), but I acknowledge that such government-related sites shouldn't be publicized by Wikipedia and have replaced with a reference to WUWT which merely says Watts runs IntelliWeather. I apologize for the delay in making this change. As you can see, I do not accept your claims that Mr Mann's denigrating of WUWT belongs, but a bland modifier like "climate-related" would probably do no harm. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 22:56, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

(The address of IntelliWeather is the same address reported by WHOIS for his other domains, and almost certainly his residence. Next time please don't blindly revert without looking at the explanation behind a change.)

You haven't really addressed the reasons I gave for the other changes to the lead. You say that Mann is denigrating Watts, as if this is some personal feud and not about scientific evidence and consensus. Please see WP:PSCI; it is Wikipedia policy that mainstream reception of a fringe view be prominently included. Since Watts is notable primarily for his fringe view, that view should be included in the lead, and therefore mainstream reception must be included in the lead also. Manul ~ talk 00:05, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

We're not talking here about a peer-reviewed study by Mann of Watts or of WattsupWithThat, and in any case Mann is not recognized as an expert re Watts and his blog, and did not present "scientific evidence" about the blog -- he merely called it a name. And your claim that "all sources" agree with you is false. Earlier I referred to an administrative ruling, I'll repeat its contents on your talk page. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 01:50, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

My edit was partly in response to your removal of information from the lead that describes what the blog is about, which makes no sense to me. He's known as a blogger -- "blogger" is in the article title -- but the lead doesn't say what he blogs about. This doesn't even concern "skeptic" versus "denier". My point is that there must be something there to describe WUWT. You removed the something.

Also, there's no such thing as an "administrative ruling" on content. Admins don't rule on content. You linked to an ANI, not an RfC. It was a mistake posting to ANI because there's nothing for an admin to do (unless you were claiming vandalism). Try WP:NPOVN or some other form of WP:DR for content disputes. Manul ~ talk 02:43, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Saying I "removed" is misleading, what I did was revert an edit which had added Mr Mann's name-calling. Saying your point is there must be "something" is disingenuous, I suggested that a bland modifier like "climate-related" would do no harm, and I suggest it again. As for the admin ruling: it's about the fact that refusal to follow the sources in this area is misconduct. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 03:15, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

I think it may be time to ask for an end on Peter Gulutzan's editing of this page. Anyone want to join me in a request to WP:AE? jps (talk) 02:51, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

jps has also written to my talk page re going to WP:AE "in a few days" unless I "back down". I rejected the demand, I will welcome going to a forum where an administrator will look at jps's accusations. During the few days, I will not revert jps's most recent edit inserting "denialism" in the lead again and commenting "I'm done accommodating POV-pushers". Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:48, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

As long as you don't edit war and let us have a conversation, then there is no reason to get admins involved. I understand that your position is that somehow the admin in question thinks that we shouldn't use the term "denialism" or its derivatives in the lede. I simply don't agree with that interpretation. I think that the admin is saying to use the best sources which I judge to be somewhat comfortable with using "denial" and their derivatives. jps (talk) 22:20, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

jps: I expected you to carry out your threat and make your accusations in front of an administrator. If you're now the one who's "backing off", I guess I will bear with your rudeness for a while longer. Now: your description of my position is incorrect -- I accept what the admin said about majority of sources. On that basis, I intend to remove your poorly sourced material from the lead of this BLP. I am allowing time first for the conversation you spoke of. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 02:53, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

The majority of sources use "denial" and its derivatives. That is, we are talking about the majority of the reliable sources on the subject. jps (talk) 11:43, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

What are those sources? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 17:38, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

The book by Mann for one which is what we are currently using to source the statement. There are a few dozen more I can name, but the question is, how do you want to do this? I'll name a source and you name an equally reliable one that contradicts it? jps (talk) 20:13, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

I would suggest, by adding something like "WUWT? is more often known as a denier blog." in the Watts Up With That? section of the article and following with 7 citations, you'd make checking and later lookup easy. I started the ball rolling by adding 6 saying skeptic. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 22:58, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

WP:SOURCECOUNTING is not really what we're supposed to do. What's with this attempted enumeration? Present your best source and we'll move forward. jps (talk) 12:43, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

jps (talk: You have said over and over (I didn't count) that the majority of sources support an edit saying WUWT? is a "denialism" website. I have asked you: what are those sources? You are not answering. I will try again. What are those sources? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:00, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I responded above. The majority of the most reliable sources do so identify the blog. Michael Mann's book, published by an academic press, is my first source. Yours is the Scientific American article? I think I'm happier with the book by Mann. jps (talk) 16:26, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I have taken this to WP:BLPN. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 02:26, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Mann and Watts have been in a personal feud for years. Mann shouldn't be used as a source for Watts or his blog, especially one that has been cited as diminishing the Holocaust or derived from from it. Sorry, nut this is a clear-cut BLP issue. There are enough sources with various descriptions that we none other that a "climate change blog." --DHeyward (talk) 22:56, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

This is incoherent; edit? --JBL (talk) 23:13, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

@ DHeyward, what evidence to you have of this alleged personal feud? Michael E. Mann is a distinguished professor, and in the hockey stick controversy#Controversy over MBH 1998 his work has been under attack from contrarians, fossil fuel thinktanks and deniers since 1998. Wattsupwiththat.com/category/michael-e-mann/ only seems to go back to 2011, there have clearly been earlier cases of Watts denigrating Mann's work but I've not found any cases of Mann personally responding: he covers Watts' blog briefly in his book, as cited. As for deniers, in 2008 Watts' blog featured guest posts by Roy Spencer, signatory to the Cornwall Alliance alliance declaration "We deny that Earth and its ecosystems are the fragile and unstable products of chance, and particularly that Earth’s climate system is vulnerable to dangerous alteration because of minuscule changes in atmospheric chemistry." etc. . . dave souza, talk 10:09, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

"Denial" is simply a means to say that someone denies a claimed fact. Climate change denial has essentially nothing to do with Holocaust denial nor does it have anything to do with AIDS denial as the facts being denied in all those instances are very different sets. The claim that this is defamatory is a big stretch, I'd say. What it appears to me to be instead is a concern troll objection. jps (talk) 15:58, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Denial is a disbelief that something is true. Is the climate changing, yeah. Is man having an impact, yeah. Is man having a significant impact on temperatures, maybe. Is CO2 directly linked to an increase in temperatures, well according to the predictions from the models that is unsure, so people are skeptical. It is pretty hard to be in denial of a future event which has not happened and which has not been proven. Perhaps if the climate models were not universally so far off it would be easier to make the connection. Arzel (talk) 18:27, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Arzel, you seem to be in denial about some pretty basic physics here, disputing the 1896 science of Svante Arrhenius: and climate models seem to have done pretty well. That's an informative webpage rather than a reliable source, do you have any reliable source for your assertion that models were "universally so far off"? All of which shows the need at Wikipedia for accurately showing science rather than getting mixed up by attempts to deny there's any problem. . . dave souza, talk 19:03, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

If it's simply is a "denial that something is true" than, Watts is not a denier as he readily admits that greenhouse gases will contribute to warming. Neither is Curry. There are many competing theories about why there is a hiatus so are all those voices "deniers" because they fail to agree? There are many competing claims about sea level rise and avg temperature in 2100. To use this language over other language such as "sceptic," which is at least equally as prevalent (and probably more so) in neutral sources, implies an agenda to make sceptics look the same as holocaust deniers. This is even mentioned in our article climate change denialism. It's pejorative and has no place in an NPOV encyclopedia. --DHeyward (talk) 20:20, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Wattsupwithtat hosts a lot of text that outright denies the facts that outline that most of the global warming that has occurred in the last decades is due to human contribution of carbon dioxide. This is plainly not a scientific skeptic position and we've got the academic sources to prove it. WP:PARITY demands that you show your academic sources which dispute this characterization. When someone denies a fact and is called out in the literature, it is not Wikipedia's job to right the wrongs as perceived by those who support the deniers. jps (talk) 20:41, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Your asking to prove the negative? How about all the papers that recognize a hiatus? Mann doesn't (well it depends on the phase of the moon whether he does or doesn't). By that logic, Mann is a "denier." "denier" is political rhetoric, not scientific. In that sense, it's inappropriate for Wikipedia to choose sides. There are AGW adherents and AGW sceptics. WP is not the place to wage political fights and WP is not on any side. --DHeyward (talk) 20:52, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

What does a supposed "hiatus" have to do with the blog wattsupwiththat? You are confusing topics here. jps (talk) 20:57, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

It demonstrates that "denier" is not a scientific term just a political one. The temperature record is pretty clear. But we don't categorize people into political buckets over scientific differences in meaning. Nobody has taken exception to being a sceptic or contrarian voice. "Denier" is not. Mann is sceptical that there is a hiatus but he is not a "hiatus denier" no matter how many scientific papers disagree with him. There are many competing views from ozone and water vapor to deep-ocean heat to trade winds to arctic measurement anomalies. All have been postulated and all have had rebuttals with various amounts of adherence. No one though, is labeled with a political term like "denier" for daring to challenge the consensus. --DHeyward (talk) 21:12, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

That's convoluted. I have shown you a peer-reviewed paper and two books published by university presses which identify WattsUpWithThat.com as a blog that hosts climate change denial. If you have a similar caliber source which disputes that characterization, let us see it. All I see are media discussions and books that are written from the perspective of climate change denial and thus can hardly be called independent enough to pass our sourcing guidelines. jps (talk) 22:21, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

That statement is false, but I believe the appropriate place for discussion is BLPN now. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 01:08, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Simply writing "that statement is false" does not make it so. jps (talk) 02:10, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually one of your sources complains about the bloggers, not the blogs. Since you have already said it's about the blog and not the blogger so BLP doesn't apply, that sources should be tossed (hint: it's the book). Here's one of many sources that manage not to call him (or his webiste) a "denier" [2] --DHeyward (talk) 23:37, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Protip: the source in question complains about both the blogger and the blog. We're using it as a source for the blog. If you want to start a discussion about sources for the blogger, be my guest. If you can't find academic sources that show Anthony Watts' blog does not include climate change denial, then you have failed to make your case. jps (talk) 19:22, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 23 March 2015

The abbreviation for the website is given as WUWT? however there are two instances in the article of the abbreviation WUWT being used. These should be corrected to be WUWT?. Michaplot (talk) 00:38, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Partly done: I've changed one of them, but the other one was inside a quotation so I thought it should probably be left as it is. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 01:19, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

WUWT? ?

I have never seen the name of Watts's blog abbreviated to "WUWT?" outside wikipedia; moreover, my experience reading this article is that the extra punctuation is extremely distracting. Is there any hope of consensus for a mass change WUWT? → WUWT ? --JBL (talk) 01:32, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Joel Lewis, and recommend the plain "WUWT" abbreviation be restored. --Pete Tillman (talk) 04:24, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Characterizing WUWT

Terms such as pseudoscience, pseudohistory, AIDS denialism, and climate change denialism are used by mainstream experts to characterize works that significantly depart from mainstream understanding. The WP:NPOV policy, specifically WP:PSCI, mandates that the mainstream reception of fringe works be prominently stated, which may include the use of such terms if adequately sourced. Indeed this is how Wikipedia articles are written in practice; see for example Gavin Menzies, whose work is called pseudohistory in the first paragraph.

Opposition to using such direct characterizations on Wikipedia has occurred before. The objections in this case bear similarity to past objections with regard to other fringe topics.

• The source or sources are not adequate. No, Mann's book alone is adequate, since Mann is a mainstream expert on the subject. The other two sources recently added[3][4] would also be adequate by themselves. All of these are high-quality academic sources. The last source specifically makes the point that, while Watts characterizes himself as "skeptical", some WUWT posts "sound denialistic". This source is against characterizing WUWT as "skeptical".
• But I found sources when I googled wattsupwiththat "skeptical blog". Yes, and you can search for other terms and find sources for those as well. The question is: what to do when sources conflict? This is normally resolved by looking to what the highest quality sources say. Sources from expert academics are better than newspaper sources, even if outnumbered by newspaper sources. Wikipedia prefers quality over quantity. Had Wikipedia (and the Internet) been around when Joseph Newman was making headlines, preferring popular newspapers as sources would have led to an article that mislead readers about the potential legitimacy of Newman's device.
• Mentioning "climate change denialism" is a BLP violation and/or a personal attack. No, accurately characterizing a blog according to high quality sources is not a BLP violation or a personal attack. Wikipedia uses terms like pseudoscience, pseudohistory, and climate change denialism in order to properly inform the reader, per the WP:PSCI policy.
• Something about the Holocaust. Let's not go down that path, okay?

Manul ~ talk 22:16, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

@Manul: You are correct on policy, but backwards on implementation. As best as I can tell, the mainstream POV is that this blog is a skeptic blog, not a denialist blog. Please see the following.[5] The claim that this is a denialism blog appears to be a WP:FRINGE POV held by an extreme minority of sources. Per WP:NPOV, we absolutely should not be promoting the fringe viewpoint that this is a denialism blog. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:50, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

The mainstream view as per a Google Scholar search eliminating the denialist sources that violate WP:FRIND is that it promotes climate change denial. "Skepticism" and "denial" both are WP:FRINGE positions. jps (talk) 23:48, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

This is still on WP:BLPN where arguments like Manul's above were discussed and were refuted or gained no consensus, there's no need to do it again here. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 01:53, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

A Quest For Knowledge, see the first and second bullet points above, which discredit your strategy of relying upon newspapers and magazines while ignoring experts. The mainstream POV in a given field is determined by mainstream experts in the field, not by counting newspaper and magazine articles. There is no "extreme minority" here except the extreme minority of scientists who do not accept the scientific consensus on climate change. Here is an additional source that deserves mention:

The Internet...provides an environment where individuals can selectively source their information...This creates pockets of denial that can become significant sources of misinformation. One of the highest trafficked climate blogs is wattsupwiththat.com, a website that publishes climate misinformation on a daily basis.

This is the mainstream POV as shown by expert sources, and per WP:NPOV it must be included. This has been a recap of the BLPN thread to confirm that the objections to characterizing WUWT as climate change denialism have been satisfactorily answered. Manul ~ talk 04:57, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

@Manul: First, the said that there was a "strategy of relying upon newspapers and magazines while ignoring experts". I did an objective search of all reliable sources which includes newspapers, magazines and peer-reviewed academic journals. No experts where ignored.

Second, you stated "extreme minority of scientists who do not accept the scientific consensus on climate change".p I agree. But that's not the issue that we're discussing. The issue is not what is the majority POV regarding climate change, the issue is the majority POV regarding the WUWT blog. You're conflating two different issues. You do see the difference, right?

Third, I think the first sentence of the quote you provided aptly describes the situation here:

The Internet...provides an environment where individuals can selectively source their information

Selectively choosing (aka WP:CHERRYPICKING) which sources to cite while ignoring the vast majority of reliable sources is classic WP:UNDUE. If we have 10 sources about something, and 9 say one thing, and 1 says something else, you don't cite the oddball source, you cite the majority. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 11:47, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH

This edit lists sources obtained from googling with search terms such as "skeptical blog" and "skeptic website" (these terms are included some URLs) and forms the conclusion that WUWT? is known as a "skeptic" blog. This is a textbook case of WP:SYNTH, and one would do well to read the entire No original research policy. This also underlines the problem of conflicting sources as well as the solution of deferring to high-quality expert sources. Manul ~ talk 09:00, 29 March 2015 (UTC)