Talk:Albania

Demographics

Many ethnic Albanians also live in the bordering countries of Serbia and Montenegro (around 1,850,000; of that, around 1,800,000 in Serbia, around 1,700,000 in its province called Kosovo and around 50,000 in Montenegro) and the Republic of Macedonia (around 500,000) although a lot of Albanians believe that the number might be higher. Also a small number of ethnic Albanians live in Greece which are called Çam or Cham. Claims over Çam numbers have ranged from 20,000 to over 200,000 but are believed to be understated because Athens has not considered the local Albanians to be a separate ethnic group.

Without prejudice to the validity of the information above, it seems to be irrelevant, because the article is about Albania (the country) rather than the Albanian people in general. I therefore propose moving the extract to some more appropriate entry. Doing so would produce a more focussed text, similar to the ones about the demographics of the United Kingdom, Germany or Russia. Conversely, if the information remains as is, it might be argued that the article promotes irredentist ideology by blurring the distinction between country and nation. For all the reasons above I plan to remove those sentences on May 21st, unless there are any convincing counter-arguments. I would appreciate any suggestions as to where this information might be more usefully presented. TheArchon 11:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Section length and contents

I am curious to read from what sources the history part is written.Especially the one stating that the Albanian fascists helped the Italians against the Greek and after helped the Germans (against who?) and no mention of the Albanians having faught against the Turks for the independence of Greece or for liberating Yugoslavia . I hided a part of it but it is still there. Nervi modest 19:58, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that the history section in this article should be a bit longer to get the information a bit more specific and accurate. For instance, as to the World War II, Italian occupation is mentioned but the German occupation isn't, and this tends to imply that there was no other occupation. Or from the first paragraph you get the impression that there never was any Albanian rule betweem Ancient times and 1912, but what about Scanderbeg?.

Go for it if you want. Dori 23:07, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I'll Make a try. Though I don't feel myself competent enough even after reading the history articles about Albania Wikipedia currently contains. Andres 19:52, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I am just wondering whether this would make the article too long. But them maybe the list of districts and the list of holidays could be moved to another place.

And I also think that the most important (or all) cities should be mentioned right in the article because they are of primary interest, not the districts. Andres 19:24, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I put the holiday table in there because it seemed to be part of a template (lots of countries have it), so I would let that stay on the main page. I have also seen Districts/Counties/Whatever on the front page. There is a link to the cities so I don't think that is much of an issue. I just want it to be consistent with the other country pages. Dori 23:07, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I see your point. I checked some other country articles. Many of them contain the holidays section, some don't. The article about the United States has it in the article Culture of the United States. It is certainly useful but it need not be in the main article. Anyway, this is not that important, and the template is not that uniform. Besides, the article about United Kingdom does not list the administrative divisions lower than countries and has instead separate articles for the lists. So there are options here too. (In the case of the United States the list of States is natural. But this does not mean that an equivalent of it is as natural for every other country. My point is only that if we find it better, we can modify the "template".

It's true that we cannot deviate much from the overall conventions of country articles but we can question the conventions and suggest changes. There are things that strike me as really strange. The amount of information about history and geography is reduced to nearly nil, and long detailed tables are longer than those fundamental topics. Of course, this is just my personal opinion. Andres 19:52, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Go for it if you want as I say. I just would like the holidays in the main article. The US has a few more holidays so that's maybe why they put it there. Dori 20:36, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I am not going to touch the tables, just extending the History and Geography sections. Andres 05:15, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I just noticed that there are some cities mentioned in the Geography section, you might add there any other cities you think should be mentioned. Dori

OK, Ill have a look.

Dori, Andres, you might want to take a look at WikiProject Countries. The template, which we try to apply to all countries is specified there. The length of the individual sections is not exactly determined, but it shouldn't be more than, say, two or three paragraphs. Looking at the Albania article, especially politics and geography could use some more information. If there are inaccuracies in the other texts: go ahead and edit them of course. But when you have to go into too much detail, just edit the subarticles.

All that is just for your consideration of course, you can just "be bold". Jeronimo 06:51, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It is wrong!

In the Ottoman Rule part it says that Albanians managed to keep their culture and religion. Actually the Ottoman Empire never forced anybody to become a Muslim. The government policy was this. Mehmet II gave an order which would let all minorities to live according to their beliefs. With respect, the son of the nomadic warriors, Deliogul 11:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Etymology of the name

The word Albania in albanian "Shqiperia" means the land of the eagle witch is also realated to the flag witch is a two headed eagle.

It could be I suppose. I guess it's an eagle or the egg problem :) Did the word shqipe first signify the language or the bird? The most used version is the one about the eagle (as enhanced by the flag), so that is what I used. Also, before being called Shqipëria, Albania was called Arbëria (tosk) or Arbënia (gheg) and Albanians were called Arbër (note the Albanians that migrated to southern Italy call themselved Arbëresh[1]). I would guess the word for the eagle existed before the name change, which is why the first explanation is more likely in my opinion. --Dori 14:59, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Scientific etymologies, as a rule, are hypotheses, though of different degrees of probability. And as to the folk etymologies, there is no question of truth. It's a fact that for modern Albanians, Shqipëria means 'The Land of Eagles'. But that does not mean that the word sghiptar (which I think is older than the name of the land) is etymologically related to the name of the bird. I think that probably both originally existed apart, and then became to be associated.

Now, the problem is that when we say what Shqipëria means then this is ambiguous between the etymological meaning and the cultural meaning for modern Albanians. For instance, I would take it for the etymological meaning if I were ignorant of the problem.

I think there should be an article apart about the names of Albania or even for each name apart. Andres 16:56, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that the name of the bird and the name of the language just happened to be the same and they were not derived from the same word? I would think that the most likely answer is that the name for the bird came from some language (Albanian or otherwise), Albanians came to be associated with the bird (maybe the name of some tribe), and then the language was subsequently associated with the bird. I don't know the technical words as this no where near my field of expertise, but logically it makes sense to me. --Dori 17:23, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Yes, I mean that originally the words shqiptar and others just happened to have the same sound as the word for the eagle, and later on Albanians "found a hidden meaning" in this similarity. Andres 22:30, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Everything is possible, it just seems unlikely to me that the two are not originally related. --Dori 22:38, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The authors of the Albanian history volume that I have seem to believe that the name probably derived from the adverb shqip which means to speak clearly, openly, bluntly and predating all other forms, and that the change in the name happened around the end of the 18th century. No mention is made of the word for eagle. --Dori 18:37, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

What change happened in the 18th century?

Arbëria/Arbër started dropping from usage and being replaced with Shqipëria/Shqipëtar. --Dori 22:38, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

It is really surprising that the change occurred that late. Are there any further details? I suppose that in oral use it could be much earlier. Andres 05:53, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This etymology (that is, whence the name comes) is plausible also this is typical way how ethnonyms (names of peoples) arise. The ethnos or nation is described as people who speak clearly, that is in the language we can ubderstand. Andres 22:30, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I think a small section on the different names would be worthwhile, in particular to explain the difference between the "national" and "international" names. There's some info on Albania on Illyria, but I'm unsure how to incorporate this here.

---

Coat of arms

Has the coat of arms of Albania been changed? Andres 05:35, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I don't think it has. The state emblem I believe is a bit similar, but I have not seen the image posted anywhere. I made the coat of arms, and I am not an artist so it is a bit stretched, but I think it is more accurate. I could be wrong though. Dori | Talk 06:22, Jan 18, 2004 (UTC)

The Skanderbeg helmet has been on the emblem earlier. See [2]. I have no confirmation either for a new emblem, but it is still possible it has been changed recently. Andres 07:10, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I got the image from the Albanian Ministry of Information (http://mininf.gov.al/). Also, this is the coat of arms mentioned in the Constitution of Albania. Also, nation's flags and coat of arms aren't copyrighted they are public domain. I did put the link on the image and where it came from. Scythian99

The site is not coming up for me right now, but I know that it is the ministry of information. Does it specifically say that it is the coat of arms and not some other emblem? The reason I asked for the site and copyright is that the Albanian law is even more strict than the American or European ones (that's the impression I have gotten). Also, most gov't sites of Albania reserve all the rights to all their material (using [3] I see that it says "Copyright (c) 2002 - Keshilli i Ministrave i Republikes se Shqiperise - Departamenti i Informacionit"). I think if the material is used in a court case or something similar it becomes public domain, but I am not sure. Do you know for sure that they are in public domain? thanks, Dori | Talk 21:33, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)

The state emblem is a bit similar if you look here: [4], but I don't know if that's the same as the coat of arms of a country. Dori | Talk 21:35, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks to bunnerabb, we have this [5], but I have not found an official government source yet. Dori | Talk 21:47, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)

That is interesting how the skanderbeg crown is in the shield and not on top of it from the other government site. It seems we have a mystery on our hands! I do know that I have seen some variation on the theme. I thought I read somewhere on wikipedia that government emblems were public domain, as with the information for countries from that CIA online source. Also, I have seen the crowned shield on recent Albanian paper money, 1,000 Leke from about 10 years ago, with swords too. Scythian99

Since you are not sure, I think I will revert. The earlier version is more likely to be the coat of arms, and it is GFDL'ed (since it's based on the CIA public domain image). Dori | Talk 04:28, Jan 20, 2004 (UTC)

Here is what the Albanian constitution constitution says about the coat of arms: "The seal of the Republic of Albania presents a red shield with a black, two-headed eagle in the center. At the top of the shield, in gold color, is the helmet of Skanderbeg (1)." So maybe the Skanderbeg crown is on the arms and not on top? I will try to draw a new one, maybe you should try?  :) Scythian99 | Talk

Is the state emblem the same thing as the coat of arms? Dori | Talk 17:13, Jan 20, 2004 (UTC)

Coat of arms is taken from heraldry since it started as individuals or families having coat of arms. Many state emblems have their roots in heraldry and use the rules of heraldry in their creation. Coat of arms and state emblem are often used interchangeably although some country's coats of arms aren't really coat of arms. What do you think of my addition of the crown on your shield. Maybe you can do a better job?  :) Scythian99 | Talk

I made a different one. I think it looks better. Dori | Talk 21:28, Jan 20, 2004 (UTC)

Urra! Urra! Great job Dori! You have many talents! It looks great. Scythian99 | Talk

Counties

The reversion of my listing of Counties is inconsistent.

The list of 36 Districts is presented on the Albania page within the Districts section as well as being under a prominent link Main article: Districts of Albania

The list of Counties however is merely referred to in the body of the text as counties

Yet when I attempt to address the inconsistency by adding the 12 Counties which are not listed I am swiftly reverted because the list already exists under the counties link.

For Consistency, either an additional section should be added to the Albania page entitled 'Counties' with a listing of the counties, or the list of Districts under the Districts section should be removed and the following links be shown:-

Main article:

• Districts of Albania
• Counties of Albania

--JohnArmagh 19:58, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The districts are somewhat more important than the counties, which is why I have left them there, but I will try to emphasize the counties a bit more. Dori | Talk 02:15, Jul 14, 2004 (UTC)

---

I think therefore that we have arrived at a reasonable and suitable compromise on the issue.

regards --JohnArmagh 06:01, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

anonymous modification

Albania lays in what in ancient times was called Illyricum. Albanians are the oldest people in Europe. Considered a mistery by many westeners Albania is a historian's dream.

Albanians are the oldest people in Balkans. Albanians are descent to Illyrians theirfore to the Pellasgians. Illyrian tribes are mentioned in Homeros poems. Many scholars have agreed with this, such scholars are Edwin E. Jacques and Konstantin Kristoforidhi, to name a few. --Albanau 17:35, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What about the Cretans (Minoans) about 2000-3000 b.C.?

Suggest 12 possible wiki links for Albania.

An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Albania article:

• Can link national flag: ...as ''Land of the Eagles'', hence the two-headed bird on the national flag and emblem. The derivation of the name '''Albania''' is of... (link to section)
• Can link Indo-European language: ...of Albania]]'' [[Illyria]]ns arise as a people speaking an Indo-European language around [[1000 BC]]. The Illyrian culture was influenced by ... (link to section)
• Can link Greek culture: ...und [[1000 BC]]. The Illyrian culture was influenced by the Greek culture (mainly the south Illyrian tribes). Albania being also the ... (link to section)
• Can link Byzantine Empire: ...es. After being conquered by a number of nations mainly the Byzantine Empire, it became a part of the [[Ottoman Empire]] in [[1478]] aft... (link to section)
• Can link Gjergj Kastrioti: ... [[1478]] after years of resistance under the leadership of Gjergj Kastrioti Skenderbeg, the Albanian National Hero.... (link to section)
• Can link World War II: ...t was occupied by [[Italy]]. The communists took over after World War II, in November 1944, under the leader of the resistence, [[En... (link to section)
• Can link communist state: ...r the death of Hoxha, Albania was an extremely isolationist communist state, with little contact even with the other communist states. ... (link to section)
• Can link organized crime: ...despread corruption, a dilapidated infrastructure, powerful organized crime networks with links to high government officials, and disru... (link to section)
• Can link council of ministers: ...n using proportional system. The president is assisted by a council of ministers, which is appointed by the president.... (link to section)
• Can link unemployment rate: ...d to be working abroad. The country has to deal with a high unemployment rate, corruption up to high government levels and organised crim... (link to section)
• Can link financial aid: ...from Greece and Italy. The money for imports comes from the financial aid and from the money that [[refugee]]s working abroad bring t... (link to section)
• Can link fanaticism: ...ther main religions in Albania, though in Albania religious fanaticism has never been a serious problem with people from different... (link to section)

Notes: The article text has not been changed in any way; Some of these suggestions may be wrong, some may be right.
Feedback: I like it, I hate it, Please don't link to — LinkBot 11:35, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Origin of the name

"The name of Albania prior to the Turkish invasion was "Arbëria," the Albanian dialect Gheg became involved and later became Arbania, for example the Tosk word for voice is Zëri and the Gheg word for voice is Zani, anyway it became later changed to Albania. The Arbëresh community who live in Italy still speak the old style of Albanian and still call their homeland Arbëria."

I think this part of the section on the 'Origin and history of the name' Albania needs to be deleted or at least revised, because there's no historical evidence that coroborates this theory, at least not in the 'External Links' section of the article.

Also, if Arbëria really was the name of Albania before the Turkish invasion, then why did it change to Shqiperia? And what were they called before being called Shqiptar? I think these are important questions that need to be addressed by this article.

Well, I can answer to all of your question but have become bored after discussing this with many. If you know swedish or know someone who knows swedish, let them translate this for you Origin and history of the name Albania (Articel at Swe Wiki) their I give information based on facts and what Arb/Alb realy means and when it became used among albanians and if Illyria still was used among some klans, and also when they start to use the word Shkipënia/Shqiperia. The articel answer to all this questions. User:Albanau

It's nice of you to have given information is swedish, how about in english so the english speaking people can understand.

Anti-Hoxha Propaganda

I know Enver Hoxha had many alleged problems with Human Rights, but I might also note that the economy of Albania was socialist. Unemployment, poverty, and starvation were illiminated. Hoxha didn't severe relations with the USSR for "his own interest", he did because the USSR went back to capitalism in his opinioin. It seems some of this is just stating what has been said about Hoxha, but a lot of it seems to be corporate/capitalist propaganda. I offically dispute the nuetrality of this article....

Motto

What does the motto mean? We need to provide an English translation. – Kaihsu 14:23, 2005 Apr 7 (UTC)

Spam removal

Sorry, I flubbed the edit summary. Please see User talk:66.66.69.79 for the history behind this particular bit of spam and my removal of it.  — Saxifrage | ☎ 19:07, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)

Albanians - Hellenes and autohthony.

No need to mention this. The very fact that he does not seem to have a signature or an account tells millions Tpilkati 06:18, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

2:Also, this whole conversation is void, since there is no scientifically viable way to prove autochtony, or any value in proving it (except nationalist bragging rights)--Jsone 4 July 2005 14:59 (UTC)

Dear Jsone,

U wrote: "Well genetic research shows common blood within Greeks and Albanians." Did u notice that the populations of the samples where too small? What if the most of the "Albanian sample" was from southern Albania (our northern Epirus)?

The sample comes from Albanians, whether from southern or northern Albania. And most likely the samples were taken from the state capitol, Tirana. Where there is the heaviest concentration of Albs. Tpilkati 06:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

-There is the big Greek minority of Albania!- Moreover there are olso Greek Orthodox Albs so mixed with Greeks that u cant say if they are Albs or not! Like Gegides.Albs live there about 9 centuries, we have come together anyway.

There it stated Albanians, not Greeks. If the people were Greeks, then they would not be tested.

Your second statement is a wrongful assumption, the "inter-mixing" process has not occured until some small times during communism, which failed. And Northern Epirus is only a small part of Albania on top of that it is not too concentrated and difficult to access. Tpilkati 06:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

For excample for Albanians where only 51 people and for the Hellenes only 76!! I believe that the numbers are not big enought to proove any serius theory..

Anyone can choose up to 1,000 people from Greece or Albania and proove anything!

To do 1000 DNA tests takes time and money...

If u are staying in Greece u would know what i mean.If not,(a) read history,(b) then count how many invadors came over Greece and finally (c) see their chromosoms on our blood! :)

Im surprised at this, lol. Anyway, generally, it is agreed that Greeks of today seem to match largely with the look of ancient Greeks. Much more of this can be followed http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/ here].

I am patriot, not a nationalist as u said. I am happy that the survey u link, shows that the Greeks have almost all the kinds of polymorfismos in a prety good percent each every one of them!

The polymorphisms are not new. These are from the Neolithic age. Long before Greek identity or Hellenism was even coming together. Tpilkati 06:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

That means that we have come together with many other nations.Notice that after the mixing, the new generation takes (most of the times) the very good characteristics of both sides. Be happy because we are blessed!

Read the above.

Agaphte,Iasona den eimai anonymos onomazomai Yorgios Mantikos kai mhn provaineis se potapous xaraktirismous, ean kai efoson mporeis na syzhtas, tote kanto.

                                                                            Eycharisto.

Yorgos Mantikos

"Disambiguation notice"

Why is there a paragraph-long disambiguation notice for this article? Everything beyond "Albania was also the name of an ancient country in the Eastern Caucasus, now mostly covered by Azerbaijan. – see Caucasian Albania" seems unnecessary. Evil Monkey∴Hello July 5, 2005 08:07 (UTC)

odd revert

If User:Getoar really thinks it necessary to revert to a three-week-old version of the article, without an edit summary, some explanation here is necessary. It would also be polite to replace the minor and entirely uncontroversial changes (for example the interwiki links and the {{Albania}} template). In the meantime I have rolled back the edit. —Charles P. (Mirv) 05:15, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Caucasian Albania

"Albania was also the name of an unrelated ancient state in the Caucasus – see Caucasian Albania"- This sentance has no relevance to this article and i removed. It is a Serbian propaganda intended to make readers believe that somohow Albanians are related to Caucasian Albania. I suggest that no one reverts this without an explantions.--Ferick 06:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I've reverted it, and the explanation is that it's a disambiguation between two similar terms - a standard procedure on Wikipedia. It certainly isn't Serbian propaganda. -- ChrisO 08:13, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

It is indeed a Serbian propaganda. The first thing you see when you open Albania’s page is that phrase, and then latter on there is talk about how some historians believe that Albanians came from that region. What impression do you think this will have on someone who doesn't know anything about Albania? I don't want to revert it back, but you will have to decide whether you want to remove the reference in the body or this sentence. If you just want to remove the reference in the body, I will accept the sentence remaining where it is now. --Ferick 03:58, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Removed etymology and copy-vio for now

See Origin and history of the name Albania. What to do in this Albania article will be figured out, but that mass of text had to go as it was. Alexander 007 15:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Someone deletesd the Gorani from the article. Return them, please. HolyRomanEmperor 19:30, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Demographics

From the article, "Religious fanaticism has never been a serious problem, with people from different religions living in peace and even getting married although this was not considered to be an optimal solution." Who considered it to not to be an optimal solution? 04:35, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Jews

How many Jews are living in Albania?

POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article

Given ongoing discussions and recent edit warring, a poll is currently underway to decide the rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article. Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Eskimos

How many Eskimos are living in Albania?

• I guess it is a new way of propaganda. Little one-sided datas were put into the different parts of the article. It is a part of the game of politics. On the other hand, with such a powerless economy and an average HDI, Albania will enter to the EU. Politics is very important my friend... With respect, the son of the nomadic warriors, Deliogul 11:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Clans among the Tosks

I've been reading Noel Malcolm's book Kosovo: A Short History, and he talks at length about the Geg highland clans of the north, but never says anything about any clans among the Tosks. Now that itself is fairly understandable, but I've never heard of any clan system amongst the Tosks, period. Are there any clans left, or were they swept aside by the Ottoman feudal system that was implemented in the more accessible areas of the south? If there are any, do they follow the Canon of Lek?(SomeAlbanianDude)

Many incorrect historical data, I explain tomorow...

I really don't care about the suppossed inaccuracy about Noel Malcolm's book right now. I just wanna know whether Tosks have a clan structure similar to the Gegs or not. (SomeAlbanianDude)

Religion

From Wiki "Islam is a monotheistic religion based upon the Qur'an, which adherents believe was sent by God through Muhammad." No 70% of Albanians belive this. Is it possible that no percentage of Albanians is atheist, at a time when almost two generations were raised without religion ? Same would be probably true for other religions. If you see France, a poll it's included, where if I remember correct 60% or more did not even belive in a God? Can someone convincibly express this? --69.119.50.159 18:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)LIO