Talk:2012 Empire State Building shooting

Why is this an Article??

Homicides happen every day. My next door neighbor shot his wife, mistress and three girls under 10 years of age. The story never made nor needed a Wikipedia entry, because entries should be worthy of being way more informative than their sources. This is pathetic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.29.247.15 (talk) 19:32, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

• After a while, when the news media finds its next story, somebody will nominate this for deletion. Speciate (talk) 05:36, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

This is discussed elsewhere on the talk page, but the reason I personally find this most notable is that the police managed to injure 9 bystanders while shooting the suspect. THAT isn't an everyday occurrence, even if the original shooting is only notable by virtue of its location. I'd actually like to see more emphasis put on that, but the problem is that we know very little about that part yet. Yes, sadly shootings do happen every day, all over the country.

Also, what's pathetic about this? The media is covering it, so various editors wrote an article. I suspect the shooting you reference is covered in local media or other sources, which you could reference to create an article youself. Even if it's not notable enough for its own article, that information can still go in with the location in question. (Unless it's a large city, but then there will probably be some sort of "Violence in..." or whatever that you could expand on.) Nothing's stopping you from contributing that yourself.

Edit: Also, by definition, entries cannot be "way more informative than their sources." That would be WP:SYNTH. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 21:23, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

OK IP 199.29.247.15, so we should just follow your personal assumption that this article subject is non-notable? That sound reassuring. Give some actual reasons trough guidelines why this article should be deleted before creating a section about it.--BabbaQ (talk) 21:39, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Please do not delete this article. Stray gunfire from police officers' guns that harms nine people in the heart of Manhattan's busiest district is not a daily occurrence. This story is very relevant to the Empire State Building's history (since there was a shooting there in 1997, when security measures were far weaker than they are today) and caused hundreds of people, including tourists and pedestrians of all walks of life, to flee in panic. Furthermore, the killing led to initial fears of terrorism among witnesses and others near the location. The fact that a shooting near a famous building would immediately be suspected as an act of terrorism is an interesting aspect of present-day American society. There is more to this story than what meets the eye (Jeffrey Johnson murdering a workplace enemy). I recommend attaching this article to the one about the Empire State Building. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anderson76 (talk • contribs) 19:25, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Ongoing Event

This ongoing event is receiving much vandalism and a bit of edit warring, so I have requested page protection for it. Electric Catfish 15:35, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

ITN

Can someone experienced with ITN blurbs nominate this page? Electric Catfish 15:38, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

 Done --Activism1234 16:01, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Seems like a lot of people oppose it at ITN :( feel free to weigh in --Activism1234 16:19, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Contradictory Statements

In the Perpetrator section, it names the shooter, but it also says that his name has not been released. I can't find any information on the suspect named, and it's not supported by any citations. Electric Catfish 15:52, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

AFTv5

I have also added a link to the AFTv5 feedback box at the bottom of the page. Feedback may be found here. Any user may see unhidden feedback and may use it to improve the article. Electric Catfish 16:12, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Explosives in Trash Can

Where on this webpage do you see anything about explosives in a trash can? I don't even see a mention of ABC News. Just making sure as that's a pretty bold statement MusikAnimal (talk) 16:13, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Oops! I didn't add the part about explosives in the trash can, I just added the citation. Evidently, I added it in the wrong section. Anyways, I'm up to 2RR on the page, so I'm not reverting anything, but you can, if you feel the need to. Electric Catfish 16:17, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Removed it for now. Thanks MusikAnimal (talk) 16:24, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Why was this moved to "2012 Empire State Building shootings"? (with an "s")

There was one shooting incident, not multiple incidents. I'm not going to get into a move debate on this one, but this seems like an odd title change. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 16:32, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. I'd also argue whether this should even be tied to the Empire State Building, as it was not in the building and actually occurred closer to other buildings. I think the perpetrator's place of work was also in another building? MusikAnimal (talk) 16:34, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I think it's tied to the Empire State building because it is one of New York's most well-known buildings, and the shooting occurred near the site of the building (and the media seems to refer to it as the Empire State shooting, too) Canuck^{89 (talk to me)} 17:40, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

I'm also confused by the title change... --Activism1234 16:46, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't see the relevance towards any particular skyscraper either, except for (more or less) precise geographical location of the subject(s). Wakari07 (talk) 17:17, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Incident with two outbursts of shooting (one continued shooting incident): First, Jeffrey Johnson disgruntled and laid-off Hazan Imports employee shot and killed a coworker he had a longstanding dispute with, and left the scene. A construction worker followed him and pointed him out to police. Second shooting followed between Johnson and the police, nine people wounded including two police and bystanders who may have been hit by police shots that missed Johnson. (That will probably change as more info comes in.) --Naaman Brown (talk) 18:01, 24 August 2012 (UTC) Wounded by gunshot revised down to eight. Looks like one against one murder, then suicide by cop, with bystanders hit by cop fire. Not a mass shooting. --Naaman Brown (talk) 20:04, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Empire State Bldg should be in the title because it is in some part why this was notable - it took place right outside of this major NYC location, police action was as fast as it was because they are stationed in front of the building as part of anti-terrorism measures. There was widespread national coverage, and notability for our purposes, because in addition to the iconic location, the police shot up to 9 civilians, which, fortunately, is not an every day event, even in NYC. Tvoz/talk 00:51, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree on the notability; in fact, I think the police accidentally shooting 9 people may be the most-notable part of this incident. One person murdering another is (sadly) just an everyday occurrence, and wouldn't have received any coverage if not for the location. Unfortunately, I suspect it'll be a while before we learn just what happened in the aftermath, since I assume the investigation will be complex due to the number of people shot by the police. (And I do agree Empire State Building should be part of the title: it happened outside, and there's no better simple descriptor of the immediate area.) – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 12:59, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Correct age of Johnson

There are two sources with different age of Johnson,53, 58, and someone in article has written 56, what to do in this case? --Rangilo Gujarati (talk) 16:55, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

The first source identifies him as 56, as stated in the article. Electric Catfish 17:00, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Some of the confusion seems to have arisen from the public statements of Bloomberg and Kelly, when they initially gave an incorrect age. The most recent stories such as this give his age as 58. Canuck^{89 (what's up?)} 18:04, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

wiki-fy

Reactions, notifications, and condolences

Congressman Charles Rangel "sends condolences". He said he was "shaken" and "My thoughts and prayers are with the innocent victims and the families and friends who lost their loved ones."[14][15] U.S. President Barack H. Obama was notified of the shooting[16] and former Governor and current U.S. Presidential candidate Mitt Romney expressed his condolences.[17]

Condolences and mention of President Obama is the typical Wikipedia style of writing and is included in the article. Auchansa (talk) 05:54, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Lack of Police Shooting Accuracy

The police were just a few feet away from the perp. How could they have so many shots go wild and hit 9 innocent bystanders? I think this is a major issue that needs to be addressed. Are the New York police really lousy shots? Don't they have to qualify with a handgun every year? Were these regular police or some sort of rent-a-cops? Cops shootimg 9 bystanders is inexcusable, I expect multiple lawsuits will follow. It's just incomprehensible. Any experts on New York police procedures and training out there? 2602:306:CEDF:1580:6D13:90D4:853A:AD4E (talk) 08:22, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

How about the NYPD phenomenon of "contagious shooting": one officer fires and other officers join in without a specific threat or target just because one has fired his gun? See the Amadou Diallo shooting: over 40 shots at a man who pulled his wallet when confronted by undercover cops in plainclothes. --Naaman Brown (talk) 13:10, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm no veteran, but sounds like this has nothing to do with improvements to the article, which is what the talk page is for? MusikAnimal (talk) 00:38, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

It's a valid question, and we should welcome serious analysis as it becomes available. In the meanwhile, in the interest of being fair to these people, I should point out that they were posted there specifically out of the belief that the tower could become the target of a major terrorist attack on the scale of the WTC attacks, or at least the earlier bombing done there. The notion of "let's let the shooter slip away so we don't have to have a crossfire, if we lose him he'll turn up on America's Most Wanted" likely doesn't work too well when the shooter might be part of a terrorist plot to take down a building. And apparently the shooter didn't decide to stand clear of the crowd when pointing the gun at them. Wnt (talk) 19:11, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I believe the 9 innocents are a result of these factors (based on reliable sources analaysis which I do not have handy to link

• Ricochet
• Through-and-through shots (several sources have counted the number of shots fired, compared to number of holes in perp, and several shots were through and through)
• Bad accuracy
  • bad accuracy compounded by sympathetic shooting

Gaijin42 (talk) 19:16, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

NYC needs to rethink its policy of having an armed police force in a jurisdiction that demonizes gun ownership. You almost never hear of other departments emptying magazines into suspects at the rate the NYPD does. The officers fear firearms and over react. Because they do not train (any cop in NYC who actually wants to become proficient with his weapon is called a "gun nut" by his brother officers), they cannot fire accurately and hit innocent bystanders. If their mayor hates guns so much, why have a police state? It would be much safer for the citizenry of NYC if it were patrolled by unarmed "Bobbies".--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:53, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Street-level footage of shooting

The aftermath section states that the NYPD released a street-level video of the shooting, as caught by an Australian tourist. I did some searching, looks like other news agencies are quoting CNN (verbatim) that such video does exists, but it doesn't look like it was ever released. From what I gather the surveillance video is the only one out there. Can someone verify this? Thanks MusikAnimal (talk) 01:03, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I went ahead and rewrote the section to match the what the references are implying. Please correct me if I'm wrong MusikAnimal (talk) 01:25, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't add up

The article says Johnson fired one shot, then four shots, then had two rounds left in a gun that held 8 bullets. Of course, you can only follow the sources, but if someone has accounted for the extra bullet it would be useful to note. Wnt (talk) 18:32, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

It could be a mistake in counting by someone, but on the other hand there are several models of 8+1 1911 on the market, and non-gun experts often forget about the +1. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:55, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

As much as I have been able to find, Johnson used a "Star 1911". I found a "Double Star" 8+1 1911, and a maker of guns commonly called 1911 by "Star", but they are not actually 1911s, so at this point I would say we have to wait for someone reliable to either positively identify the model of gun, or better count the shots, or say he reloaded. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:11, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Most GI 1911 magazines only hold 7 rounds. The 8-rounders didn't become popular until the late 1980s, I even have older Wilson mags which look like what he used in the photos I have seen that hold 7 rounds. It is not uncommon for people to load a 7-round magazine, chamber a round and not "top-off".--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:20, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Ya, I know. My point is that "holds 8 rounds" is somewhat meaningless when coming from someone that doesn't know about guns in terms of what the gun actually held. Even for the GI models, there are 8 round extended mags you can get, and identifying a mag via photograph is gonna be tough unless its a super closeup (have you seen any that show detail of the gun?) Based on this discussion, and the hard evidence available, he could have had anywhere between 6 and 9 rounds available to shoot without reloading (actually anywhere from 0 to 9, the gun "holds 8" who knows how many were loaded) - so the "doesn't add up" makes sense within our margin of error. If we know exactly the gun and mag used, then we can say if it does or doesn't add up. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:28, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I saw a very blurry shot that was blown up. I could see the magazine had the profile of an older Wilson Combat...stainless with vertical slots on the side. Pistola itself had enough detail that I could make out a medallioned black grip (most likely a Pachmayr) but not enough to positively id the pistol as a 1911, it could have been mistaken for an older Ruger.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:58, 29 August 2012 (UTC)