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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by ZviadPochkhua (talk | contribs) at 21:36, 13 June 2016 (Added some remarks related to the real power of De Facto government). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Humorous Flag of Bigoted ignorance.

The True Abkhaz flag represents Abkhaz Kingdom (The hand) with white stripes (Snowy mountains, and Christianity), and Green stripes (Ancient Forests, and Islam) and stars representing land of Abkhazia. Abkhazia never used Cross as a means of self identification. Yes there are some Abkhaz family seals with cross in it but there is at least one accommodating a swastika.


Is this an encyclopedia or a site for colonist Kartvelian bigotry and hate speech?

Dear user, Silvery Right Palm is shown on Genuise map of 1314-1315 (*c.1385. Guillem Soler.Biblioteca Nacional, París.)[1] and the map says: “lands of the Greatest King of Georgia". Right Palm was the symbol of Georgia, though Abkhazia was also considered as the name to Western Georgia.

On the same regions you can find Georgia's 5 cross flag. Meaning the incorporation of Dadiani's lands into Georgian Kingdom[2]. Right Palm is also shown on the regions of current Gagra, Gonio, and Sukhumi. It also appeared on the Portolane of Gilermo Soler[*c.1380. Guillem Soler.Biblioteca Nacional, París]to indicate Sukhumi as the residence of Dadiani. “Silvery Right Palm ” is not Apsua but oldest Georgian symbol, which means ruler or sovereign[3].

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Issues with Definition

Hi all, Please assist me to resolve the problem with the info box of Republic of Abkhazia which is placed on right side of the article.

Problem: Definition "Republic of Abkhazia" is not common or legal and it's not recognized internationally. Info box misleads audience, giving expression that "Republic of Abkhazia" is official name and commonly used. It also features symbols of separatist government, which are presented as official symbols for Abkhazia.

Description: Common name of Abkhazia since Soviet times is Autonomious Republic of Abkhazia. Internationally Abkhazia is referred as Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia or Abkhazia. This is due to the fact that UN, U.S. all European countries and almost all countries in the world recognize Abkhazia as the part of Georgia with it's legal status "Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia". Only Russia, which occupied Abkhazia in 1993 and few Anti_western countries call Abkhazia "Republic of Abkhazia". In 2015 Google map added word "Autonomous" to "Republic of Abkhazia"[4]. Later it started referring a Abkhazia.

Resolution: There must be clear definition for the information presented in info box. It should include first official name, status and heraldic of de jure authorities, as well as de facto titles and symbols, but with clear description that these names and symbols are not common, and not recognized by UN, EU and the world except of Russia, Venecuela and some other countries. --188.169.46.141 (talk) 19:19, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Neither that name of "Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia" are the common name of the area, which is just "Abkhazia", like the article title. The infobox is set up as it is to reflect the situation on the ground, but if you look at the very first paragraph of the lead, you will see the situation wrt Georgian sovereignty explained, while details of limited recognition you request are already present in the infobox as it stands.
As an aside, as far as I'm aware there are no official heraldry symbols for the Abkhazian government-in-exile, although if that is changed it would be good to know. CMD (talk) 23:41, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
CMD well noted. Both are not common. But As far as I know Wiki reffers to official name first and then to others. Though using Abkhazia the the general title is OK. But the info box misleads users. There must be two Boxes: One for Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia and Second for Separatists Republic of Abkhazia.
Yes, there are official symbols. I just lack of knowladge to insert them into this article. Hope others will help.
These two boxes should be filled with relative symbols and titles. Otherwise, now, this box show partly Separatists republic and rest Autonomous republic.
Current symbol is for partly recognized/separatist republic of Abkhazia. CAption below the flag should say "Flag of Partly recognized Republic of Abkhazia"
--188.169.46.141 (talk) 07:57, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The Heraldry for the Autonomous Republic shown on the heraldry website are just proposals, I do not believe they have been adopted into law. They are not for example used on the official website.
The infoboxes have been discussed before, and as I noted, the current one reflects the governing structure actually in use. The government-in-exile has its own page, linked in the lead. I trust readers to be able to figure out that Abkhazia is only partially recognised due to its prominent mention, it is bad writing to mention it every single time the separatist republic is mentioned. CMD (talk) 08:16, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The Heraldry for the Autonomous Republic is used on official website of Georgia's State Council of Heraldry

It shows both: Flag of Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia and Coat of Arms. There is no single word that symbols are not approved by the law. But I will double check it. Meanwhile the rest - Infobox with Title and status of Autonomous Republic must be added. OK. I understand that the current info box refers to "Republic of Abkhazia" (parttly recognzed) but till there is no second info box for Autonomous Republic, it misleads readers. --ZviadPochkhua (talk) 08:45, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

--ZviadPochkhua (talk) 08:45, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

CMD Government in exile has own wiki page but it's not about country, but governmental body. current article is about Abkhazia and it show only one governing structure - illegitimate body. Not adding legitimate body to the info-box misleads readers. Your argument that all readers are well educated is quite weak. Many in USA identify Republic of Georgia as State of Georgia in USA. And many in Russia still believe that Georgia is part of URSS. What I propose is very simple: to have 2 info box. Do you see something problematic in it? --ZviadPochkhua (talk) 09:17, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm familiar with the heradly website. The Heraldry Council came up with those symbols a few years ago now, and listed them as proposed symbols when it did so. The website has changed a bit since then, but given the complete lack of text on that website (which in general is not that well maintained, search through it a bit and there's still some places where Abkhazia is represented by a blank shield for example), I do not take it as a source for their proposals making it into law.
I disagree that it is misleading to present the governance as it exists on the ground. On the contrary, it would be very misleading to present an infobox, with associated demographics economics etc., for a body which exerts no influence on said parameters. The current infobox clearly notes the lack of recognition, and and the lead gives a concise explanation of the situation. All the government-in-exile is is a governmental body, it does not exert a governing structure. My argument was not that readers are well-educated, but that they could read what's already blatantly obvious on the page. CMD (talk) 09:21, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It was misleading for me, since I decided to correct it. It's misleading for many of my foreign friends. Of course it's up to Wiki editors, but it decision should not be biased. Now it now shows different attitude towards identical situations. For example Crimea (occupied by Russia) and Abkhazia (Occupied by Russia) . For Crimea there is a separated article and for Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia page is redirected to this page and protected from editing.
This condition creates feeling that editing wa conducted unfairly and base on political motivation.
My opinion remains: Article Abkhazia lacks of infobox on Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia.
--ZviadPochkhua (talk) 10:12, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The infobox contains: "Partially recognised", "First international recognition", "Annulled by Georgia immediately thereafter", "By Russia. Another 3 UN member states also recognise Abkhazia's independence". The first paragraph of the lead contains: "partially recognised state", "separatist Abkhazian state", "recognised only by Russia and a small number of other countries", "the majority of the world's governments consider Abkhazia part of Georgia", "Georgia officially considers the area an autonomous republic, the Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia." If people feel mislead after all of those, then I suggest there is little that can be done.
Crimea is a markedly different case, given the Ukrainian autonomous administration of Crimea was actually exercised for over two decades, and the article is useful in covering that. The Georgian Autonomous government on the other hand exercised limited control during the war immediately after the breakup of the Soviet Union, and over bits of the Kodori Valley and surroundings for two years. CMD (talk) 10:32, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
CMD Thank you for editing. Well done. Now it looks better.

As regard to the difference between Crimean and Abkhaz Autonomous Republics. As far as I understand, your point is that Crimea's Autonomous Republic used its status since the collapse of Soviet Union till the occupation and in Georgia control governance was partly lost.

I agree that current government is de-factor ruler, so that proves importance of having it on page. But the status of Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia is internationally recognised till today and this status was exercised (de-facto) in upper Abkhazia till 2008 (Russo-Georgian War).
My suggestion is to have two info box for article. This does not contradicts with wiki rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.73.7.64 (talk) 12:34, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My point was that the Crimean Autonomous Republic fully functioned for a long time, whereas Georgian governance of post-Soviet Abkhazia has never been fully established. Even the Chkhalta government only lasted a couple of years. I noted my issues with a second infobox above.
Also, although I suppose it may have happened a few times, I have not seen any statements from foreign governments recognising the Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia. They recognise Georgian sovereignty, which is not the same as recognising specific administrative structures.CMD (talk) 13:38, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Lol what does it mean "They recognise Georgian sovereignty, which is not the same as recognising specific administrative structures"?! They recognize Georgian statehood, Georgian law and Georgian sovereignty this includes everything. OMG some try so hard to diminish Georgia.--g. balaxaZe★ 14:14, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It means that we shouldn't extrapolate sources to say things they don't. It's hard to see how you feel this diminishes Georgia. Countries recognising sub-state structures can often lead to issues down the line (see: Kosovo). CMD (talk) 14:34, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
CMD Sorry, but your statement about recognition only Georgian sovereignty, excluding specific administrative structures, is senseless. Recognition of sovereignty means recognition of borders and it's governing structures. Government of Separatist Republic of Abkhazia does not recognize region as the part of Georgia. Do you mean that International community might recognize Georgia's sovereignty but not its governance? And remark regarding upper Abkhazia is not true. Autonomous Republic was controlling it since 1991. My question remains: What kind of problem you see in having two info-boxes? Becouse it seems like you are trying to hide Georgia's jurisdiction --ZviadPochkhua (talk) 09:18, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, a recognition of sovereignty is a recognition of sovereignty. Sovereignty generally includes the creation of governing structures regardless of outside interference. See for example any selection of China's statements on the matter. The international community recognises Georgian governance, but I have seen no specific statements saying they want that governance to be a certain way. Upper Abkhazia was controlled by a warlord until 2006, which is why the Autonomous government was based in Tbilisi until that time.
I stated my concerns above. Implying a governing structure where there is none does not help the reader. CMD (talk) 15:16, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with CMD that the lead overall gives sufficient weight to both points of view (de facto and de jure control), however, I also don't think that the infobox reflects that, since it gives one point of view much more prominence. I would like to see Crimea-style infobox, giving fair weight to both de facto and de jure situations. Further, I don't think the duration of control has anything to do with it: we present both administrations in the Crimean article not because Ukraine was administering it for some arbitrarily significant amount of time, but because both views have significant support and should be given WP:DUEWEIGHT. No longer a penguin (talk) 11:56, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to suggest this Crimea-inspired "combined infobox". Bests, --Seryo93 (talk) 16:54, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fair weight does not mean equal weight, and I maintain that it is misleading to present a government that has never governed in line with one that actually does. This is not based on viewpoints, but on conveying the situation to the reader. This is in line with other articles on states with limited recognition, such as Northern Cyprus, Kosovo, State of Palestine, and Somaliland. CMD (talk) 17:39, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
How is it misleading? That's what "de facto" means! One government is actually governing (hence de facto), the other has a widely-recognized sovereignty (hence de jure). The situation is exactly like Crimea in this sense. By the way, I thought the infobox proposed by Seryo93 is excellent and much cleaner than I had thought possible (although minor adjustments are needed). No longer a penguin (talk) 18:28, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I find it misleading because it links the government-in-exile to things it has no relation to. It does not control currency or calling codes (contrary to the infobox the government has a +995 32 code as it operates out of Tbilisi). The population they will claim will likely be vastly different, as the Georgian autonomous government would likely count the tens of thousands of Georgians forced out of Abkhazia which as far as I know Abkhazia is happy to disown.
A different point is that it gives far too much prominence to an administration that is effectively a placeholder. It is the Georgian national government that participates in discussions around the issue, and is recognised to have sovereignty by almost all countries (sovereignty to my knowledge has not been divested into subnational administrations). Resolution to give Georgia any de-facto power would likely involve a restructuring of government anyway. The pre-2008 peace proposals for example offered a restructuring of the whole Georgian government, not just Abkhazia's.
While Seryo93's infobox is indeed remarkably clean, I do not feel that it would enhance the understanding of Abkhazia to readers. CMD (talk) 19:32, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I accept that it gives a lot of weight to the government in exile and it's personnel that have no power that I'm aware of. However, it gives proper weight to Georgian claims of sovereignty. I would suggest removing the Chairmen and the legislature, since they are insignificant. The rest are good reflection on what Georgia claims (Georgian as an official language, Georgian currency as the only valid currency), in contrast with the defacto information.
However, I don't see how other items in the infobox would be affected by this change. You say that Georgian government would claim a different population. Why would they? The population in the infobox is the population of the region and not even Georgian government would claim that all those Georgians are still in Abkhazia. What they (and other parties) have claimed, however, is that Abkhazian authorities have overstated population, and such claims, properly sourced, should be included regardless of whether we include Georgia as de jure sovereign. No longer a penguin (talk) 08:05, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What do you think about Swedish example? First of all we agree there is no doubt that this article includes region also called as Abkhazia without any political charge. And then we have two issues de facto and de jure. CMD's claim that Georgia had lack of actual control has no actual weight, because in Soviet union this region was part of Georgian SSR (and by constitution Georgia was "independent SSR") that's why modern Georgian political entity took legacy of that SSR. After this I think we should give more quick information to the readers about current political situation in this region, de jure fact changes a lot for de facto Abkhazia so including information about de jure is essential to understand real situation.--g. balaxaZe★ 09:31, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I honestly like the version above] better. I think the Swedish version is too cumbersome and gives too much prominence to the Georgian administration. Whereas I think that Georgian sovereignty claim is significant, their administration body is much less so. No longer a penguin (talk) 12:19, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Going into further detail on the government-in-exile does not help readers understand the balance of each opinion, and would be a cosmetic change with the potential to obscure understanding given it links things that aren't linked. Currency for example, is more about what is accepted than what is legal (Zimbabwe officially uses a couple of currencies but unofficially many circulate, Scotland has no legal tender). Regarding population, I was trying to note that the government-in-exile has no association with the population figures given (The ministers themselves are not included in Abkhazia's population. Also, do you mean that population disputes should be in the infobox? I'd agree if Georgia had a more recent estimate than 2005, which is the latest we have in the article). On the other hand, the current infobox notes the de jure situation where it has actual impact, for example the map, where Georgia (inc. South Ossetia) is highlighted as it would be on most world maps (something not even done in most other limited state infoboxes), the sovereignty section where obviously it has the most impact, and (fascinatingly) in the telephone codes. CMD (talk) 16:52, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I like your suggested infobox No longer a penguin. And I think this will help to stop long-time dispute about infobox of the article (this is not the first time).--g. balaxaZe★ 18:01, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Proposed info-boxes are acceptable. I will vote for adaption if I may.

--ZviadPochkhua (talk) 20:52, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ "*c.1385. Guillem Soler.Biblioteca Nacional, París". *c.1385. Guillem Soler.Biblioteca Nacional, París.
  2. ^ "1339. Angelino Dulcert. Biblioteca Nacional, París".
  3. ^ "The Genoese trading factors in Abkhazia".
  4. ^ "Google Maps adds "Autonomous" before "Republic of Abkhazia" following Georgia's request". Agenda.ge.

Polling to adopt new infobox

It was several times that people had controversy about the current infobox. One thing is clear it's not well formed and misses many things. Due to this I think it's time to vote for adoption of a new infobox.--g. balaxaZe★ 18:13, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please have a read over WP:NOTVOTE. The correct procedure if you wish to escalate this is an WP:RfC, or something else in the WP:DR system. CMD (talk) 22:59, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree Great great proposition! --Ąnαșταη (ταlκ) 23:10, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree The proposed new infobox is a more accurate reflection of current realities, and takes into account both de jure and de facto status without making political statements to one effect or the other.--Damianmx (talk) 02:38, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree for reasons already stated with two proposed fixes. (1) The two Chairmen and legislature from the "Georgia (de jure)" section should be removed. The Georgian de jure claim is significant, but the administrative positions with no actual power are not. (2) Abkhaz and Russian should be added to spoken languages. They were excluded in the old infobox since they were in the "Official languages" field. But now that we have two "Official languages" fields, all of the major spoken languages should be repeated within Spoken languages. No longer a penguin (talk) 07:52, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment: No longer a penguin we can agree about languages, but not about removing two de jure Chairmen, they are representatives of IDPs, they care about them and if someone (UN or etc) will decide to do something in Abkhazia they talk with them. They have weight (power) even in exile. They also care about those Abkhazians who come in Tbilisi or Zugdidi for medical treatment. --g. balaxaZe★ 11:08, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your reasoning, but I don't agree with the conclusion. As far as I can tell, the "de jure" chairmen have no power in Abkhazia, which is the subject of this article. In 2008, their administration was evacuated even from the small part of Abkhazia that they had some control over. Right now they seem to perform the sort of low-level administrative functions that would not be covered in any other infobox on a region. Also, a statement that "if someone (UN or etc) will decide to do something in Abkhazia they talk with them". I can only assume that any "talking" to them would be purely a gesture, since if you want to DO anything in Abkhazia, you would have to talk to de facto government. No longer a penguin (talk) 12:00, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Beside that actual control on the ground, de jure government claims all Abkhazia, so at least readers should know (see) who is a head of them, who organizes their governmental activities and so on.--g. balaxaZe★ 12:36, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No longer a penguin, this is an example of what I was discussing above when I was talking about the governments link with the population being very different.
Anyway, Giorgi Balakhadze, if you really want to go down this path again but do not know how to set up an RfC, I would be happy to do so for you?
Lastly, I encourage any interested users to read the discussions which resulted in the current compromise infobox, which take up basically the entirety of Archive 6 and conclude with the first section in Archive 7. CMD (talk) 20:25, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Archives or previous discussions do not mean that topics are closed and mustn't be changed for ever. Be happy and do RfC :) --g. balaxaZe★ 20:30, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
hi No longer a penguin. Your statement "if you want to DO anything in Abkhazia, you would have to talk to de facto government" does not correspond to reality. Till now, countries (except of Russia and Venezuela, Nikaragua) and their citizens can't do anything in Abkhazia in terms of long-term business. This is due to THE LAW OF GEORGIA ON OCCUPIED TERRITORIES and international diplomacy of Georgia, U.S. and EU. For entire world Abkhazia currently is considered as Bataclan theatre during the attack. Even De Facto government is wrongly referred here as so, since almost all Countries admit that It's Russia who keeps control over Abkhazia, including financial control. Russia promised to cover 61,5% of Abkhazian budget in 2016

There attempts of Turkish entrepreneurs to start business in Abkhazia, but as far as I know almost all such attempts failed to Georgia's involvement. There is no recognition of elections in Abkhazia, and very few arguments proving real weight of De Facto government. It's obvious for me and the rest of community with knowledge of situation in Abkhazia that De Facto government of Abkhazia is the puppet structure with no real power. But Russia can be called De Facto. Please correct me if I'm not right while saying this. 

--ZviadPochkhua (talk) 21:36, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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