Talk:Vellalar

Sources

@Wikipedia user SITUSH: You seem to be partial to some communities - adding VELIRS in VELLALARS and deleting any linkage from VELIRS to Yadavas!! Stop Patronising VELLALAR Community!!

Pattinappalai which is one of the greatest Tamil literary work, refers to Velirs as Shepherd Chiefs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rajan.nainar (talk • contribs) 22:02, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

How is it possible that Irunnkovel is linked to Vellalas? Irunnkovel according to Tamil literature is a shepherd chief (Velir) and not a Vellalar. If Vellalars aristocratic society, how come they want associate themselves with Yadavas, Ahirs and Velirs?

Velirs are Ayars (Yadavas) !!!

I — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.155.19.47 (talk) 20:57, 11 August 2016 (UTC) Rural Society in Southeast India Par Kathleen Gough [1] page 29: "The Vellalar were the dominant secular aristocratic caste...".

Al-Hind: Early medieval India and the expansion of Islam, 7th-11th centuries By André Wink page 321 [2]:
"... Rajaraja's army was raised and commanded by Vellalas".
"Not only the Vellalas were the landowning communities of South India, but they also formed, in alliance with the brahmans, a rulin stratum which was quite comparable to the Rajput of the North, even if such communities continued to be regarded as shudras rather than as kshatriya."

there was no link between velirs and vellalars

velirs are separate no link between velirs and velallars velirs didnt told they are velallars — Preceding unsigned comment added by Srinivasan107 (talk • contribs) 17:31, 13 April 2014 (UTC) "It further appears that from the eleventh century onwards, the nadu which originally was largely represented by the dominant Vellala land-holding groups,...".

Peasant History of Late Pre-colonial and Colonial India, Volume 8 by B. B. Chaudhuri, page 664 [3]: "The Vellalas ('lord of the land') (...) were initially the people who had 'landed wealth and good stock'. The source of their landed status and the power associated with it was presumably their enterprise in the organization of the wet farming. The 'ritual division' between this group and the other gradually occured, largely as a result of the conscious efforts of the vellala, 'this noble stratum', to mark itself off culturally from the rest.'

An outline of the cultural history and principles of Hinduism by C. Sivaratnam, page 36 [4]: Velirs or Vellalas were landed agricultural aristocrats.

Based on the all the refs provided here & in the article, what we can tell is:

Vellalar is originally an aristocratic root caste, known for their control over the lands. they are linked to a group of chieftains called or untitled Vel or Velir during the Sangam age. Throughout time, some impoverished Vellalars got involved in non aristocratic activities such as land owning peasant labour, etc. while other enriched groups started claiming Vellalar status. Till the 14th century & the end of the 'pure' Tamil Kingdoms (Chola/Chera/Pandya), Vellalars held the top positions of the Tamil society. After the downfall of these kingdoms, Vellalar became known just as a farming, agricultural community eventhough some of them still remained big land lords.

Rajkris (talk) 22:53, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Velirs

Velirs claim a descent from Ayar community; Velir had clan names Ay and Avi representing their Ayar heritage. Velirs are associated with the Yadava of Dwaraka and Velirs are a particular segmentary lineage of Yadava. Source: Pivot Politics: Changing Cultural Identities in Early State Formation Processes Paperback – 1994 by Martin Van Bakel, Renee Hagestenijn & Pieter Van De Velde (Author) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.245.16.100 (talk) 13:00, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

The Velirs are Ayar or Konar or Idaiyar kings (who are also called Yadava). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.245.16.100 (talk) 13:08, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

According to the research done by S.D.Nellai Nedumaran & S.Ramachandran in their project The Velir: Were they the Velalas? they reason that Velirs are clearly different from Vellalars. http://www.sishri.org/velir.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rajan.nainar (talk • contribs) 21:48, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Mayasutra Refs

I don't agree with with what you wrote based on ref 17: "...the Velir tribes were a Shepherd class and different from the Vellalars" because does not say that, it is an addition from your part.Fyi, even if they may have sheperd roots, aristocrat are not sheperds... They own lands... Your ref only rejects the etymological connection between Velir & Vellalar.Rajkris (talk) 23:36, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

In ref 7, you have not completely mentioned what is told by the author, we should add everything to avoid undueweight.Rajkris (talk) 23:38, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 December 2013

Chronicleof COGRLAHEPETA (talk) 14:03, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Note: No request was made. --ElHef (Meep?) 15:30, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Sourcing, again

I've just reverted this way back. There has been an edit war and just prior to that there was some stuff from a prolific sockpuppet - Buddhakahika (talk · contribs). I'm not convinced that the war was over as such: it seems to me that Rajkris might have just waited for an opportune moment and, sorry, I am very aware that Rajkris tends to rely on snippet views from Google Books etc even though they've been told before that such usage is not acceptable.

I'm not opposed to reinstating the content in a piecemeal fashion provided that the sourcing is indeed ok. Given the history, which goes back at least as far as events on Talk:Tamil Kshatriya, I think that we'll have to insist on having sight of all sources & for such sightings to includes pages before and after the one(s) of direct relevance to the article.

I know that I'm supposed to assume good faith, Rajkris, and indeed I've always thought you to be well-intentioned. However, you do have big problems with using sources and I can't just ignore that. - Sitush (talk) 15:17, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

No pb but you have removed both snip views & full ones.Rajkris (talk) 23:48, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 April 2014

Should include Christianity in the religion Chronicleof COGRLAHEPETA (talk) 07:17, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Jackmcbarn (talk) 15:27, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

velallars are sudras in hindu varna

velirs are diffrent from velallars velirs are kshatriyas — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.193.182.22 (talk) 07:19, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Pillas are not just from Chola Nadu but also from Pandya Nadu too.

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(t • e • c)} 13:05, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Removal of a content written by Maya

Tholkappiyam which dates from fifth or sixth century contains a passage which mentions velanmantar; which later commentators and recent scholars equated to vellalas. However, the Velanmantar do not necessarily refer to the Vellala. Some references are found in Niganthas such as the Pingalanikanthu, for Vellalars. Quebec Leslie mentions them as follows:

...the tenth century lexicon Pingalanikanthu does not consistently identify Vellalas as the "fourth caste" but informs us that this term is a synonym of both Vaiciyar (Sanskrit Vaishya) and of cuttirar (Sanskrit Sudra) (Pingalanikanthu 773 and 780). Another lexicon, Tivakaram, which is thought to be of slightly earlier date than Pingalanikanthu, lists the six kinds of works of the Vellalas: agriculture, tending animals, trade, playing on musical instruments, spinning and weaving, and serving the twice-born (MTL 3843-44). The references from these two lexicons suggest that neither a definition based on varna nor one based on occupation had become fixed by the beginning of the Chola period. This should be contrasted with Stein's (1989, 84, 448) characterization of the Vellalas of the early Chola period as being sat (clean) sudras, having a ritual status second only to that of Brahmans, and as firmly connected with cultivating the land, and being, indeed, the dominant peasant group.

I have removed the above content for the following reasons :

1. The author deals with women in (South) India and not about history of India. And above all, her statement regarding Vellalar contradicts scholars opinion of this caste : a ruling, land owning community (I have provided multiple sources written by historians dealing with Indian history)
2. The author uses a primary source: this is not because 1 or 2 historical sources assert something that it is true unless it is accepted as such by the current scholars which is not the case here
3. The last sentence of the author ("This shoudl be contrasted with Stein's...") is challlenged by the historian, scholar Andre Wink: [5]: "Here Stein's dichotomy of warrior and peasant is highly misleading,..."
   

Therefore, using this ref is clearly an undue weight.Rajkris (talk) 16:24, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

References

"role of Kshatriya in ancient and medieval Tamil Country" says Noboru Karashima

page 110 and 111 , Ancient to Medieval South Indian Society in Transition ,Noboru Karashima. https://global.oup.com/academic/product/ancient-to-medieval-south-indian-society-in-transition-9780198063124?cc=us&lang=en&

he says "The Second Point I wish to add here for future discussion concerns the caste system based on hierarchy .These Thirty or Fourty years Scholars have been discussing the issue of caste hierarchy,Concentrating their arguments on the question of which of the two,Brahmanas or the King(Kshatriya),occupied the pinnacle of the hierarchy , or which of the two, religion or politics ,played crucial role in maintaining social order in traditional India,by quoting A.M . Hocart and/or Louis Dumont , it seems to be more important ,however , To realize the independence of the two, Brahmana and King, or Religious and the Political , if we consider empirically the function of the so-called caste hierarchy.In the Long course of Indian History , the opposition between the allies of Brahmana and King(Kshtriyas or dominant caste) as rulers on the one hand,and the others groups(classified theoretically as Vaishya or sudra ) as the ruled on the other,has had much significance in society ,Though no communities properly called Kshatriyas have existed in south India, we are able to regard the Vellalas , Who were the dominant caste , as having played the role of Kshatriya in ancient and medieval Tamil Country, A good example of Brahmana/Vellala coordination can be seen in the Thirukkachchur incription, quoted above , contrasting the (good) behaviour of Brahmana and Vellala with the (lowly) behaviour of the lower jatis and missing the former . The best example of the conforntation between the Brahmanas/Vellalas allies and other communities organized as idankai and valankai may be found in the revolt inscriptions of the fifteenth century referred to above"

Request to wiki editor to add this info into wiki page of vellala

Artilce needs more references per wiki Verifiability

Please provide references for the following sentences in article per wiki Verifiability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability

1. "archeological sources trace the origin of the Vellalars to a group of royal house chieftains called Vel or Velir" -- It will be great to see valid references for these.

2. According to old Hindu, Tamil texts, the Velirs were warriors from the Yadu Kshatriya clan (Chandravanshi lineage); they came to south from the city of Dvārakā in north India under the leadership of the Vedic sage Agastya. It will be great to see valid references for these.

Sangitha rani111 (talk) 01:41, 5 July 2015 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

Semi-protected edit request on 24 October 2015

Please add this

It derives from the word Vel meaning a spear or lance and alar meaning "people of Vel", an old and archaic Tamil weapon. 2601:246:A01:2771:3064:58EC:50C7:CBE1 (talk) 01:55, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

• Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.
• The etymology section of this article is already well sourced. If you want to add to it you must provide a source as well. --Stabila711 (talk) 02:01, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Please add this

Post 13 century Jaffna saw the migration of many Mudaliyars from Thondai Nadu — Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.23.150.18 (talk) 14:43, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Wow.. Everyone you ask would tell you that the Vellalar migrated to the Southern region from around Gujarat, but it seems someone has removed this information.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.23.150.18 (talk) 21:45, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 May 2016

Vellalar doesn't means water or shower water, it means Spear Pari2343 (talk) 20:44, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

 Not done - we have 5 citations for water or flood based etymologies, but you have cited none for spear - Arjayay (talk) 07:28, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2016

Velirs are Yadavas. Linking Velir to Vellalars is incorrect.

One can link Velirs with Vellalrs only if Yadavas = Vellalars, which is not the case.

Although some tamil Yadavas have a Vellala title, as a caste Vellalas are not the same as Yadavas.

Http://viswamurugu.com/link3.html

The Velala that is referred to in the book (page 32) A social history of Early India by Brajadulal Chattopadhyay is the one that carried out agriculture as occupation. This Velala is actually the people from "cattle-herding" caste (Yadavas) who also ventured out into agriculture.

The Vellalars to which this current Wikipedia article refers to is not the same as Velala referred by Brajadulal Chattopadhya - if Vellalars are aristocratic caste why do they do agriculture?

Any reference to Velirs from this Vellalar article should be removed

Vellalars are VELLA ALARS (the one who rules the flood) but they are not VELIRS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.155.19.47 (talk) 20:41, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Velirs are believed to be descendants of Yadu - today the descendants of Yadu are called Yadavas (also Ahirs, Konars, Idaiyar, Gowda, Gollas)

Not a single dynasty record(s) according to Travancore Dynasty Records & Kerala District Gazetteers show any linkage between Velirs and Vellalars. According to Travancore Dynasty Records & Kerala District Gazetteers Vel-Ay, Mal-Vel-Ay are Ay Kings belonging to Ayar Community.

According to Pivot Politics: Changing Cultural Identities in Early State Formation Processes Paperback – 1994 by Martin Van Bakel Renee Hagestenijn Pieter Van De Velde, it states that Velirs are segmentary lineages of Yadavas (there is no mention of Vellalars or any linkage to Vellalars).

According to Neolithic Cattle-Keepers of South India: A Study of the Deccan Ashmounds. F. R. Allchin Ayars and Velirs are Cattle-keepers who rose to the level of petty chieftains.

Pattinappalai clearly states that velir King Irunkovel belongs to Shepherd race.

If Velirs = Vellalars, why would someone describe the hierarchical structure Ventar - Velir - Vellalar separately? If Velirs = Vellalars, thenn either the word Vellalar or Velir would have been omitted / because it would be redundant. It is clear from the hierarchy structure VELIRS ARE NOT VELLALARS and vice-versa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.155.19.47 (talk) 20:42, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

I sincerely hope that those who contribute to Wikipedia research the history of Ay Kings as well as Velirs and provide an undistorted truth about Velirs. It seems that Vellalars want to link Velirs to Vellalar caste which is technically not correct.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.245.16.100 (talk) 18:56, 11 August 2016 (UTC) 

188.155.19.47 (talk) 21:00, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Topher385 (talk) 12:48, 16 August 2016 (UTC)