Talk:Morrissey

Location of Stretford

Stretford is not in the county of Lancashire it is in the county of Greater Manchester: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretford — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tremello22 (talk • contribs)

Not in 1959, which is the time referred to in the introduction. --ajn (talk) 21:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Morrisseymusic.com

Why is Morrisseymusic.com listed as morrissey's official website? Didn't Morrissey say, "Thirdly, I have no connection at all with the site called Morrisseymusic.com. It is controlled by Sanctuary and I am neither consulted nor involved."--199.176.241.60 13:39, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

It's controlled by Sanctuary but that was considered his official site. http://www.true-to-you.net/ is the site Morrissey uses communicate with fans, that's more like his offical site. Englishrose 14:22, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Racism

Was there anything that prompted the accusation of racism more than performing in the Union Flag? This objectively looks nationalistic, not racist! David.Monniaux 12:04, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm no expert but some read into Morrissey's lyrics that he was racist - "hang the DJ" in "Panic. Apparantly at the time most DJ's were black. A bit tenious i know but some apparantly really do believe it. His comments such as "black people and white people will never really get on or like each other" didnt help either. Hopefully someone with more knowledge can shed a bit of light on it.--195.188.152.14 01:12, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Where did you hear that most DJs were black?! I highly doubt that. Especially not BBC radio DJs such as Steve Wright. as for the "black people and white people will never really get on with each other" comment, he made it in an interview to a French magazine where he also said, in the same sentence, that the British and the French will never get along... Someone could have accused him of being anti-French. Just another example of typical Moz pessimism (you could accuse him of misanthropy based on many of his statements to the effect that relationships never work, people are born to live and die alone, etc.), but in the context of 1992, shortly after NME-fueled accusations, it only shows you Morrissey's stubborn refusal to defend himself and his habit of digging a deeper hole for himself instead... Nightandday 16:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I think Morrissey's statements were more against genres of music rather than races of people. At the hight of this allegation, Morrissey was seen draped in the Union Flag - something at the time which was uncommon but now, since the Spice Girls' appearance a normality. Ironically, Morrissey also said that "reggae is vile" and his latest contract is with a vile record label. Kabads

Officially, "Panic" was written after a DJ named Steve Wright aired a "futile" Wham! music after a Chernobyl newscast. WolfenSilva

I think the accusations of racism stem from songs like "Bengali in Platforms" and "Asian Rut", and lyrics like "England for the English". I don't actually think Morrissey is being racist-- a lot of this "evidence", and most of his songs, consist of hyperbole, archetype and metaphor. MisterSheik

For Asian Rut and National Front Disco is simply the narrator. In fact, I feel that the song Asian Rut is anti-racist with lyrics such as "Oh, English boys, It must be wrong, Three against one?". I personally think Asian Rut is about desiring humanity based on lyrics such as "(I'm) On my way to somewhere civilised and maybe I'll even arrive". As for National Front Disco, yeah I can see why it is racist BUT Morrissey is describing the events of somebody losing their son to the NF. He does not endorse it. Thus to say that song is racist is absurd. "Bengali in Platforms" isn't racist either. It's more of a celebration of being different and not having to fit in. Morrissey writes this in third person and he is concerned that the subject might "hate" him; it shows affection rather than hatred. In a documentary Morrissey said, "why would I be racist? What would I be trying to achieve?" Don't forget Morrissey is also very positive about his Latino fan-base, which contradicts that he's racist. Englishrose 14:22, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it is absurd to call Asian Rut and National Front Disco racist - in fact, I would say that both are anti-racist songs. I won't even comment on the flag, and as for the skinheads, since this is Wikipedia, why don't people just read the Wiki article on the skinhead subculture! Anyone with even a slight knowledge about the matter should know that only some parts of skinhead subculure hold neo-nazi and racist views (however, they have most media exposure). Original skinheads weren't political, and even now many skinheads aren't political, and there is a significant number of left-wing oriented skinheads, and there are a lot of anti-racist skinheads, who have formed organizations such as SHARP (Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice) and Anti-Racist Action. For instance, oi-punk band Angelic Upstarts (a band Morrissey likes and plays their songs as warmup tracks for his gigs, BTW) are considered a part of the skinhead scene, and they are very ardently left-wing and anti-racist. Besides, if Morrissey was prejudiced against Asians, how come he was a supporter of the band Echobelly in the mid-90s and very good friend of its singer Sonya Aurora Madan (who is of Indian descent)? I read an article where sais she was overjoyed when Morrissey, her idol, was quoting to her her lyrics about being a Asian British woman - 'we are dreamers, a nightmare apart'. And Morrissey is also a fan of Maya Angelou. Hardly seems like a big old Nazi, does he?! Nightandday 16:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Initial racism accusations definitely date from the time of "Panic"'s release - they were based, as I recall, on the lyrics to "Panic" which go "Burn down the disco/Hang the blessed DJ/Because the music that they constantly play/It says nothing to me about my life" (an interpretation that implicitly assumes "disco" - the building and the musical form - must always correspond to "non-white music", which is an interpretation that appears to be at best arguable, at worst hopelessly simplistic - as indicated, for example, by Johnny Marr at the time, who pointed out in NME that New Order had no black members, and yet created great disco music); but the accusations were also based on a contemporaneous Morrissey quote that stated "all reggae is vile". I seem to recall (from memory only) that it was the NME of the 1985/86 period that primarily saw this professed musical taste (or lack thereof) as inherently racist. Dave12345 22:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it was not NME, it was Melody Maker that accused Morrissey of racism in that case) in 1985/86. NME was very pro-Morrissey at that time, Melody Maker was the opposite. Their conlucsion that "Panic" was anti-black must be one of the dumbest ever, even stupider than the NME 1992 campaign. Since when is disco an exclusively black genre, and more importantly, since when is disco genre identified with black culture in general?! If anyone was being racist, it was the Melody Maker writer who concluded that dislike of disco equals dislike of black people. (This would mean that disco and black people are the same?! excuse me??! Hasn't he ever heard of a number of other music genres that black artists have excelled in?!) Interestingly, nobody ever mentions that both Morrissey and Marr are huge fans of classic Tamla Motown (and Motown-sounding) soul artists, particularly girl groups (most of them all-black) like Martha & the Vandellas, The Marvelettes, The Cookies, The Velvelettes, etc. In fact, Morrissey was talking about his love for Motown in the same Melody Maker interview where he dissed Stevie Wonder and Diana Ross (which, miraculously, served as a proof of his 'racism'). As for the infamous 'reggae is vile' comment, disliking reggae would still not make you racist, but I don't think Morrissey really dislikes it. He has said since that it was just a tongue-in-cheek remark intended to wind up the music writers. And ironically, one of his all time favourite records is "Young, Gifted and Black" by Bob & Marcia (two reggae artists from Jamaica who covered the Nina Simone song). Anyone with half a brain should have realized that 'Panic' was aimed mainly against the escapistic/hedonistic 80s bland pop (Wham!, Duran Duran, etc.) and other music (such as disco) that didn't address real life issues, and against BBC DJs like Wright who were constantly playing it, while ignoring bands such as The Smiths. Nightandday 16:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The writer appologizes for Moz' racism stating that Moz had a black friend. I do not believe that one makes up for the other: racism is racism, it is an absolute flaw of a person be it antipathy for one group or several groups of people. Diegueno 15:03, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the writer 'appologizes for Moz' racism', because there is nothing to appologize for. There was never any proof that Morrissey was racist, and plenty of evidence to the contrary. I can't believe this is still being debated, let alone that some people, like you, would matter-of-factly state 'Moz is racist'. The writer of the article is wrong though, the NME writers who accused Morrissey of racism (and who are now trying to excuse themselves by saying that they only wanted to 'put a question') didn't base it on Johnny Rogan's book (I doubt that they had even read it by that point), but entirely on the misinterpreted lyrics to 'Asian Rut', 'National Front Disco' and 'Bengali in Platforms' ('We'll Let You Know' was also mentioned, ironically as an example of nationalism... I say 'ironically' because we're talking about the NME!) and the Finsbury Park 'incident' (which doesn't even look like much of an incident to me, based on the video recording of the event). Furthermore, the article gives the wrong impression that Rogan accused Morrissey of racism, or made him look racist in his book, and that is not the case. In a paragraph about the development of Morrissey's liberal ideas, Rogan mentions his interest in the 'plight of black people' and his reading of books such as "Sex and Racism in America" and "The Diary of a Harlem Schoolteacher". He mentions the remark about the Pakistani - which is just something taken from Morrissey's teenage diary - as an incongruity, but remarks that Morrissey was even then aware that his only problem with Pakistanis was his lack of knowledge about their culture. Rogan also stated that Morrissey had progressed a lot since - naming 'Asian Rut' as an example (and quite rightly so)! If the only proof of Morrissey's 'racism' is a flippant remark he wrote in his diary as a teenager, well... I wonder how anybody else would fare, if people starting quoting silly things they wrote in their diaries or said in the schoolyard to their mate when they were 18!Nightandday 15:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Miscellaneous

The item that begins "In retaliation to the above-mentioned statement, a contradictory statement, purportedly made by Morrissey..." and continues to quote at length a statement from Morrissey taken off www.true-to-you.net is likely out of the bounds of "fair use" and likely copyright infringement. Even if it is not, I have no idea why such a long and barely newsworthy statement is on what's supposed to be an encyclopedia page.--MrFluff 05:44, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

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I removed the item on the Curse of Morrissey. Feel free to re-add if this can be proven to be a common term (hardly registers on google outside of this Wiki-page).

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Should the quote from Moz about voting against GWB be removed? It's already on WikiQuote, and this page is getting out of control.--MrFluff 05:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

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The last couple of sentences in the 'Sexuality' section didn't read well. I've changed the punctuation a bit.

Moz

This is a name people use to refer to Steven Patrick Morrissey. He is more commonly known as Morrissey. He was the lead singer in The Smiths, and later went on to a solo career.

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Thank you very much for sharing these pearls of wisdom with us all, thank God we can sleep easy tonight.

It isn't just an alias, it's a symbol for those who will carry the sometimes painful wheight of the unshared pashion for his work, life and everlasting beauty. MOZZ4Ever

WHAT?!?!

"Morrissey is not engaged to Jonathan Violet, a famous tunesmith from northern England. "

Who the hell wrote that? Where's the source?

Feud with Robert Smith?

Can anybody elaborate about the 'lifelong' feud between Morrissey and The Cure's Robert Smith?

The whole thing started due to some fairly inocuous comments made by Robert Smith about the Smiths. While he professed an admiration for the Smiths, he added the comment "Morrissey’s so depressing, if he doesn’t kill himself soon, I probably will," which was probably meant in jest, after all, no-one is more aware of Morrissey's miserablist tendancies than Morrissey himself. However, Morrissey responded with typical vitriol, claiming the Cure were 'A new dimension to the word "crap"' Robert Smith then responded with probably the most memorable line of the feud, saying '"If Morrissey says not to eat meat, then I’m going to eat meat; that’s how much I hate Morrissey." This was probably the high point of the feud, most music hacks regard it as an irrelevance now, although Smith and Morrissey continue to lampoon each other in the press, despite the fact that no-one seems to care. Perhaps this is indicative of a genuine feud rather than just a sales-boosting one. SilhouetteSaloon

They actually stopped lampooning each other long ago. Morrissey even said (I think it was in 1997) that Smith was a 'nice person', and that Smith had invited him to his son's birthday. Morrissey also said in an interview this year that people wrongly assume he dislikes Smith, he has respect for anyone who cuts quite an original figure in music (or something to that effect). Nightandday 16:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Relationships

Does anyone know if Morrissey actually entered into any romantic relationships of any merit? There have been some speculations, both of a hetro and homosexual nature, but I was just wondering if there is any evidence to back up any of these claims?

No evidence exists either way. Morrissey is tight-lipped on the subject of his private life, and rightly so, I might add -- what he does is no one's business (this idea goes without saying), and whatever he did say would unquestionably be twisted, dissected, and ultimately corrupted by the media, and, I daresay, interpreted in various opposing ways by much of his longtime, über-devoted fanbase. Weavermoz 02:49, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Morrissey had a close companion called Jake Walters circa 1993-5. It was widely rumoured the pair were romantically involved, but once again never confirmed or denied (Jake's hands appear on the back of the Vauxhall and I album). Whether true or not, this is the closest to a "public relationship" Morrissey has ever had.

Morrissey was romantically linked to a certain Lee Farrant during the mid 1980s, and they were often seen arm in arm frequenting various south London boutiques.

Lee Farrant?? Never heard of that name, and I've heard a great deal of Moz-related gossip LOL In any case, a wonderfully androgynous name, 'Lee'. Could be male, could be female (what a perfect Moz gossip LOL).Nightandday 12:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Jake Walters (who was also Morrissey's personal assistant circa 1994-1995) has denied that he was romantically involved with Morrissey. He was quoted in the infamous Dave Simpson 1998 Uncut article, and he claimed that Morrissey and he were friends and shared a flat for some time (until 1995), and that, even though they weren't that close anymore, they still heard from each other from time to time. (BTW, he also called Morrissey 'the most interesting and fascinating character I've ever met.) It's true that Morrissey didn't confirm or deny it, but then, he was never asked about it in an interview, to the best of my knowledge.

To make things clear: Morrissey has admitted to having been in love, having had relationships, or having had sexual encounters - he just never named anyone. It's certain that in his pre-Smiths days (as a teenager/early 20s) he had some failed relationships and sexual encounters that he described as mostly bad. He has said that he lost his virginity at the age of 12 or 13, and that a series of bad experiences made him decide to abstain from sex. In 1992 interview he mentioned matter-of-factly that he had slept with women and had a 'physical encounter' with a man 10 years before. (There's also Johnny Marr's explanation (Record Mirror, 1984): "Morrissey doesn't participate in sex and hasn't done so in a while, he's had a lot of girlfriends in the past and quite a few men friends.") Morrissey himself also made an off-remark once about a 'girl I once had a relationship with'...

Finally, in a 1997 interview in The Face he said that he had had a relationship with someone during the previous two years (that would mean around 1995-97), which had ended 'recently' (as the article said). He didn't say anything about who the person was. He has also said several times in recent years that he hasn't been celibate for years. Now, how many other 'relationships of merit' he has had, and who with - I don't know.

And yes, there are tons of rumours about men or women who were supposedly involved with Morrissey at some point. Some of these rumours have absolutely no foundation (e.g. the rumour about him and Michael Stipe, which Morrissey has strongly denied, only started because people misread an interview of his to mean that the song 'Found, Found, Found' was about Stipe, which he actually never said), in other cases there might be some truth to it, but there is no definite proof. The only exception, as far as I know, is a a remark in one of his letter to one of his pen-pals (1980-1981) "Will you send me some pornography? Do you have a girlfriend? Do you like girls? I have a girlfriend called Annalisa. We're both bisexual. Real hip, uh? I hate sex." He was almost certainly referring to a certain Annalisa Jablonska, who contributed the vocals to 'Pretty Girls Make Graves' and 'Suffer Little Children' (described by Marr as 'Morrissey's friend Anna'). In his book, Johnny Rogan mentions a black girl called Marcia that Morrissey was seeing when he was 18, but I don't know if the has proof that she was actually his girlfriend rather than a friend.

There was also speculation about his relationship with (his life-long friend, artist and former Ludus singer) Linder Sterling, particularly about the time in early 80s when he supposedly shared the flat in Whalley Range with her and Ludus guitarist, or at least was a very regular visitor (there are conflicting rumours on the matter). Nick Kent first made the assumption in his detailed 1985 article on The Smiths' past in The Face (which angered Morrissey very much and resulted in Kent being banned from The Smiths camp) and speculated about the songs that might have been written about her; it's also discussed in Simon Goddard's book "Songs That Saved Your Life". It's never been confirmed or denied. Morrissey has never been publicly asked about it; Linder has, in a recent interview (September 2006): "You've worked a lot with Morrissey, there's rumours you've been lovers..." All she said was "There's a lot of gossip."

Other people who have been rumoured to have been involved with Morrissey include his recent (male) manager, his (female) personal assistant around 2004, a male fan around the same time, an unnamed girlfriend circa 2002/2003 (could be the same one as the female PA, or not), his former press guy, a female fan called Wendy he used to be friends with...and so on. You get the idea. Basically, anyone who ever was seen in public with him or is known to have spent any significant time in his company is a suspect. :D

I hope this has answered your question in a satisfactory way... I can't help you any more than this. His life is largely still a mystery. I'm sorry if this post is too gossipy, I'm not usually like that. ;) I like the fact that he prefers to keep his private life private. I hate it when celebrities talk about their love affairs in gossip magazines etc. Nightandday 12:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

When we talk about Morrissey having publicly declared his celibacy, what exactly do we mean? That is, are we talking about sex or marriage?

Pistols concert

I don't think Morrissey was at the concert. He may have said he was there, jokingly, as it a known that more people claim to have been there than was actually present. - Kvaks 20:19, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Why do you think Morrissey was not present...? Certainly the documented evidence is out there (search on http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=morrissey+%22free+trade+hall%22+pistols&hl=en&lr=&start=10&sa=N for numerous references).

Update: The young Morrissey wrote the following letter to the NME, after attending the gig:

18 June 1976 - NME (UK) Review by Steven Morrissey of a Sex Pistols concert: "I pen this epistle after witnessing the infamous Sex Pistols in concert at the Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall. The bumptious Pistols in jumble sale attire had those few that attended dancing in the aisles despite their discordant music and barely audible lyrics. The Pistols boast having no inspiration from the New York / Manhattan rock scene, yet their set includes, "I'm Not Your Stepping Stone", a number believed to be done almost to perfection by the Heartbreakers on any sleazy New York night and the Pistols' vocalist / exhibitionist Johnny Rotten's attitude and self-asserted 'love us or leave us' approach can be compared to both Iggy Pop and David JoHansen in their heyday. The Sex Pistols are very New York and it's nice to see that the British have produced a band capable of producing atmosphere created by The New York Dolls and their many imitators, even though it may be too late. I'd love to see the Pistols make it. Maybe they will be able to afford some clothes which don't look as though they've been slept in."

source: http://www.passionsjustlikemine.com/moz-mb.htm

This is a fan page (and shouldn't be)

This is not an encyclopedia entry -- it's a page written by some devoted fans who want to portry Morrissey in the best possible light. This is inappropriate, and I think the page needs a significant rewrite; in particular, the "trivia" section should be mostly or completely removed. This is my opinion, but as Bill Hicks said, it happens to be true. R 07:10, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

'Morrissey has told that he enjoys watching boxing'

Quotes such as this from the trivia really do need to be removed, unless the comment can be contextualized into saying something about the man's character.

That said, I'm not sure I'd go quite as far as 'fan page'; what bits do you think are overly sycophantic? Robdurbar 09:40, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

• I disagree that Morrissey's character needs to be established to the degree that a page of this size seems to attempt. The sheer length of the page gives me pause, and the "Miscellaneous" (formerly "Trivia") section is chock-full of completely irrelevant -- and unattributed -- pablum. "Morrissey is noted for using and liking the Southam Street work of photographer Roger Mayne" has little, if any, importance to an encyclopedic entry on the man. That said, I am impressed with the page's comprehensiveness, but wonder how much of this content is really significant at all. R 16:14, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I think the trivia section is important in understanding Morrissey, his music and his fans an encyclopedia doesn't just have to offer dry facts surrounding someone's life, but can instead show a person's wealth of influences and personality, as well as including those touched by his music. Ask me

Anti Rock Star Image

Strange section this, and not entirely accurate. Morrissey certainly has had brushes with the law (police raiding his house following the Margaret on the Guillotine lyrics), dealing with alcohol and drug abuse (albeit band members habits rather than his own) for example.

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I agree, the entire section is highly debatable and confusing. There are plenty of examples of reclusive rock stars and Morrissey's ongoing feuds with the media, other musicians, etc is very rock star-ish. Also, unflamboyant is not a word. Morrissey is often characterized as flamboyant anyway (google: "Morrissey flamboyant" and see for yourself). Basically, this whole section is bogus and should be removed.--MrFluff 04:36, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Recent changes

An anon ip recently changed "He is 6' (1.83 m) tall." to "His height is between 5'6" and 6'.", and changed "The song Let Me Kiss You from Morrissey's latest album You Are the Quarry is dedicated to her." to "The song Let Me Kiss You was recorded by Nancy with Morrissey and Alain Whyte singing background vocals.". Does anyone know if these changes are valid? Arniep 00:07, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

"The song Let Me Kiss You was recorded by Nancy with Morrissey and Alain Whyte singing background vocals.". That certainly is true, Nancy release the same song on the same day Morrissey did. Englishrose 14:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Opening sentence

The article for "The Smiths" reads '(...)rock group(...)' while this one reads '(...)pop band(...)'. I think it's advisable to mantain the same major music genre between these related articles... after all it's the very same encyclopedia.

Sales

If You Are The Quarry is his most successful album, having sold "more than a million" copies (i.e. about a million plus), how can he have sold 80 million total?

Yeah, anyone have a source for this? - Maximusveritas 15:22, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I figured for sure it was a typo and changed it to 8 million, then someone just changed it back. There is absolutely no possible way Moz has sold 80 million worldwide, see the note by maximusveritus above.

I take it back. If you include every Smiths album, plus every Smiths single, plus Moz albums and singles and compilations and include worldwide sales for going on 25 years, 80 million is probably about right. A major label like Warners likes to see back catalog items sell at least a couple of hundred thousand per year, less than that and they disappear from the catalog. so at 100 k per year over the last 20 years, you could add another 2 million per album to the original 1.5 million certified albums, it's not inconceivable that The Smiths have sold anywhere from 10 to 20 million albums in the U.S. alone. Only the accountants at Warner know for sure.

• I was about to say that. Coldplay have made 25mill albums sales from 3 albums so 80mill for Moz doesn't suprise me. Englishrose 23:07, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Morrissey has DEFINITELY NOT sold 80 million albums worldwide. If you think otherwise, please produce a source. Please also do not confuse acclaim with sales; The Smiths may be one of the most influential English bands of the 80's, but they did not sell well outside the UK and Europe, at least not in a mainstream pop sense. If Morrissey had sold 80 million records, then no way would he have been without a record deal for 7 years. Even as of today, he is signed with the independent Sanctuary, whom are having major financial troubles and could be out of business this year. To put "80 million albums" in perspective, Nirvana IN TOTAL sold 50 million albums worldwide, just as an example. Morrissey definitely HAS NOT sold 80 million records.

Why should it be that surprising that Morrissey/The Smiths may have outsold Nirvana? The Smiths effectively had a 7 year headstart on Nirvana, and have would appear to have remained trendy (so that lots of people would buy up the back catalogue) for much longer. I've no idea which of Morrissey or Nirvana have sold more in, say, France or Argentina, but then probably nor does anyone else around here... --Danward 21:24, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Morrissey has never had a double platinum record (2 million units) solo or with the Smiths. You're trying to convince us he's sold 80 million records worldwide or even surpassed Nirvana? I would be surprised if he's sold 10 million records in his career, and that's a high estimate. People need to cite sources and not just speculate based on their emotions. We're an encylopedia, not a fanzine. Facts only, please.

Absolutely right. Please check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_selling_music_artists - Morrissey or the Smiths are nowhere close to being on that list, not to mention not even being on the list for selling 50 million records. Whoever came up with this "80 million records" rubbish is clearly pulling the leg (and the tender guillable heartstrings of Morrissey fans) of Wikipedia users.

Animal rights

Is there such a thing as an ethical vegetarian. Ifr so ios he one. SDources only please. I dispute strongly that his latest views have divided the country. That would imply a huge num ber of Brits supported his stance which is clearly false. Please don't insert POPV as fact. The reality is almost everyone thinks he is an extremist whose dangerous POV verges on the criminal, if it isn'tt criminal. Classical example of an uppity pop star who knows how to sing and uses that talent to try and promote political extremism, SqueakBox 16:17, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Also the justification of his use of the Union flag based on things that happened years later comes across as trying to disprove the fascist roots of Morrissey, and has been removed as such, SqueakBox 16:23, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

You don't like Morrissey, do you? I don't agree with everything you've said here, but I don't have any major problems with the edits you made. I just added an explanation of why Morrissey says he's a vegetarian and a source for some of the criticism he's been getting. - Maximusveritas 17:32, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't like his politics but I used to love The Smiths. But he seems from his actions and words to have become right-wing in the nasty, intolerant motivated by hate sense of the word, and I think about as much of violent animal extremists as I do of Islamic terrorists, ie they make the governemnt batten the hatch down, justifying all sorts of reactionary measures that take away from everyone's freedom because of the actions of a tiny, extremist minority, all very pseudo-radical and unhelpful towards the greater goal of a better, freer world for both humans and animals. I do feel there was some POV pushing in the article as it was, and indeed I haven't actually gone through the whole lot in the editing sense. Your further edits to my edits look great. Anyway I cam to the article reading this article on him, SqueakBox 18:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

People that admire Morrissey

Can anybody verify that all these people have publicly admired him? Arniep 03:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Laura Bowen, J. K. Rowling, Bono, David Bowie, Kurt Cobain, Chino Moreno, Daryl Palumbo, Michael Stipe, Jeff Buckley, Noel Gallagher, David Byrne, Joel Madden, Martin L. Gore, Pete Doherty, Harry Hill, Craig Kilborn, Thom Yorke, Chris Martin, Jonathan Ross, Douglas Coupland, Liam Gallagher,Michael Ian Black Jesse Lacey, Ryan Adams, Peter Gabriel, Ricky Gervais, JT LeRoy, Pete Doherty, Jack Black, Davey Havok, Matt Skiba, Brandon Flowers, David Cameron, Colin Meloy, Peter Wentz and Kathy Burke have all publicly stated that they admire Morrissey's work.

Bono, Kathy Burke, J. K. Rowling, Noel Gallagher, Liam Gallagher, Harry Hill all priased Morrissey on the Morrissey documentry, "The Importance of Being Morrissey". of the Documentry

Michael Stipe [1] called Morrissey an "inpiration", and appeared in a photo in "Rolling Stone" in the early 90's with his arm draped around Morrissey and holding his hand (there was a rumour that the two were romantically linked - this was before Stipe came out of the closet).

Jonathan Ross said that Morrissey was one of his idols and also made a big fuss about him appearing on his talk show.

Pete Doherty- Morrissey was his hero and when Morrissey criticised him Doherty got very upset. [2]

David Cameron [3]

Brandon Flowers [www.arjanwrites.com/arjanwrites/ 2005/02/the_killers_mys.html] [4] [5].

Kurt Cobain- Mentioned in his biography.

• I have removed this reference since it was more likely that Kurt was mocking Morrissey (the biography references a "Top of the Pops" performance by Nirvana in which Kurt sang in psuedo-goth baritone voice). Just because someone is aware of a personality does not make them a "fan". More specifically, Dave Grohl, the drummer for Nirvana, has gone on record that the band "hated the Smiths".

Thom Yorke- Stopped eating meat because of Morrissey. [6]

These are just a few, nearly all of these are common knowledge. I've just picked out the ones that I personally know. Englishrose 09:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

• Note: It shouldn't be a shock because The Smiths were voted the most influential band by The Mirror beating the Beatles. They've influenced a lot of musicions, thus Morrissey is bound to have a large amount of famous public admiration. Englishrose 14:01, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

They have certainly not all said they admire him. Cameron, for instance, says he finds the music strangely uplifting. Everyone in that list must be sourced as saying that they greatly admiring Morrisey or the list cannot remain as it is as what it is is a falsification of the truth apparently planted by Morrisey fans which confuses our readers. As for the claim that this is common knowledge, doesn't look like it as 2 people are challenging this alleged common knowledge that is in fact a fantasy in somebody's head. Thisa is a serious encyclopedia and must be treatred as such, where necessary that means sourcing every word, which in this case has clealry not been done, SqueakBox 14:49, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok then. Common knowledge amongst the majority of Morrissey fans, which it is. Seems though your fussy about the word "admire", I've changed it to "fans of". Englishrose 17:22, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Cameron said that The Queen is Dead was his favourite album ever and waxed lyrical about the brilliance of it. If that's not admiring his work I don't know what is. Googling each name listed and "morrissey" is likely to bring up a source. These are just the most public of a large list. Sure, demand sources but don't immediately discount things due to the lack of it. Me677 17:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Is it really necessary to make a list of all the people who have publicly stated their admiration of Morrissey? I can't find any other musician or group that has a similar section. It'd be much easier to just leave these out entirely; or, if you think it is necessary put a blanket statement that many entertainers and other notable people appreciate his work, maybe with a few select names dropped in. Spikethehawk 19:34, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Since Morrissey is a cult artist and out of the mainstream, it's relevant to show his influence on pop culture, particularly since the mainstream majority is unaware of his existence.

"the mainstream majority is unaware of his existence", where did you get such a silly idea from?

Other references:

• Michael Stipe - appeared in a photo in "Rolling Stone" in the early 90's with his arm draped around Morrissey and holding his hand (there was a rumour that the two were romantically linked - this was before Stipe came out of the closet).

• Hilary Duff - mentioned Morrissey as one of the artists she "loves" while she was on the podium at the MTV Music Video Awards before she introduced "The Killers" as the next performer. Also told Cosmopolitan magazine in the March 2006 issue that she loves "anything Morrissey" when they asked what were her favorite songs to sing.

• Fred Durst - wore a "The Smiths" - "Hatful of Hollow" t-shirt twice in public. [7], [8]

• Kristin Dunst - wore a Smiths t-shirt [9]

• Iggy Pop - back in the late 80's when Iggy Pop was a guest VJ on MTV, he stated The Smiths were his favorite band and played the video for "There Is A Light That Never Goes Out".

• Gwen Stefani - wore a customized Smiths "Queen is Dead" t-shirt during an interview with MTV, and No Doubt has cited Morrissey as an influence. [10]

• Pat Sajak - though famous as the host of "Wheel of Fortune", Sajak also hosted his own late-night talk show on CBS during the late 80's. On one episode, responding to a question from a guest, he said his favorite music was Morrissey, and in particular the "Viva Hate" album.

• Anthrax - this premiere 80's metal band recorded The Smiths "London" as a b-side to one of their UK singles and which was also featured on the "Airheads" movie soundtrack.

-Source analysis=

Michael Stipe article doesn't contain the word admire, neither does the Doherty article. Indeed none of the 7 links contain the word admire so we stil need a source that for each one of these people admiring him, SqueakBox 14:52, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

• I've changed the word to fan, but one of the ways to define the word fan is "3: an ardent follower and admirer", Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University. Englishrose 17:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the point is that the list just looks stupid because it's too long. We should limit it to a few people accompanied by whatever it is they said about him. Arniep 18:36, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

What about a seperate page, "List of notable Morrissey fans"?Englishrose 20:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

In that case why not make a separate page for fans of every band/musician to ever come into existence? It's a pointless section and doesn't deserve to be in there. Groups who point to Morrissey as a direct influence on their work is a different story, but does it really matter that Craig Kilborn or JK Rowling are fans of Morrissey's music? Spikethehawk 21:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

JK Rowling requested that Smiths/Morrissey references were placed on the set of the Harry Potter films. She get's a lot of inspiration from Morrissey. [11]. Englishrose 23:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I think with the change to fans it looks alright. I, for instance am a fan of his Smith vocals (all I have heard) but that doesn't mean I admire him as a person let alone make me an ardent follower of his political beliefs. The statement as it stands is accurate without trying to be sycophantic, SqueakBox 00:41, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Colin Meloy recorded a tribute album of Morrissey covers.

Jesse Lacey-

He is the lead singer of Brand New. In their song, "Mixed Tape" they sings, "I'm sick of your tattoos and the way you always criticize the Smiths and Morrisey."

The 'misc' section

There's a lot of rubbish in there. It could do with being removed. Some of of the little facts are okay and could be incorporated into the main part of the article, while other bits would be most welcome in the bin. SaltyWater 19:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I think we could probably create a new subsection under "Image and Politics" for all his admirers. I'm not sure if all that stuff is really needed in the article, but at least it would be a little more organized. - Maximusveritas 22:15, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Racism pt II

I removed the speculative and unfounded nonsense that he was a big supporter of various ant-racist organizations, because there is zero evidence that he was/is. Also since when was the Labour Party a "anti-racist movement"??. Also to the contrary "Mozza" has been more of a supporter of the racist British National Party than any other U.K. political party. Stop trying to sugar coat the guy FFS.

I have no interest in claiming Morrissey as a Labourite, but The Smiths were part of Red Wedge in the 80's, which was very closely linked to Labour. They also played at least one 'Rock vs Racism' benefit gig.

"Where is the evidence that Moz supported the BNP? In iterviews he has stated his opposition to censorship and that includes the BNP. Morrissey has always supported left-leaning, liberal causes e.g John Kerry for president, and been anti-right leaning, establishment figures, e.g Margaret Thatcher and the Queen." Ask me 22:04, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Many people support liberal causes and are still racist.

Ok ok ok...From what i have gathered on this discussion board...there are some people who dislike morrissey the person and want to paint him in a negative light. They claim other people are suger coating morrissey which isn't true. the Racism allegations are false and have been explained by many why they are false. Morrissey himself said he is not a racist. The problem is he speaks his mind and isn't neccessary PC and careful to make sure journalists can't twist his words against him. For example, didn't he once state that there is a problem with immigration when you allow people to freely come in a country. Many people took this as racism. He then had to go back and point out that he simply meant that the resources are not there and both local communities and the immigrants themselves are screwed. Which is true. It makes sense and there is no racism. For those who do not like Morrissey and his politics, stop trying to paint him a a negative light on his wikipedia page. It's a difference of beliefs. His recent animal militia comments were also overblown. Yes morrissey supports them. but his value on animal lives is not understood by those who do not value animal lives. He sees the life of animals as equal to humans. Thus the humans are already murdering the animals. One being killing another being--both equal to each other. Get over it. It's for sure not right-wing. It's not radical in his eyes as well as too many. Both are violent acts as Morrissey stated. His point was to point out that both are violent acts. THAT's THE POINT!!! Should I repeat myself.

"I have no interest in claiming Morrissey as a Labourite, but The Smiths were part of Red Wedge in the 80's, which was very closely linked to Labour."

Yes but the point was made in the article that he can't be racist because he is a Labour supporter. That's what doesnt make sense. Again what has Labour got to do with fighting racism? One could say the same about the Tories or Lib Dem if that were the case.

"They also played at least one 'Rock vs Racism' benefit gig."

Couldnt find a single story on them playing any RAR gig.

---

I have removed the false, and indeed libellous allegations that Morrissey supported the NF/BNP at any point, and I am reinstating the fact of Morrissey's support for the Labour Party (an explicitly anti-racist organisation, please check its constitution, history etc), Anti-Apartheid, Amnesty International, Unite Against Fascism et al. Sources and references will follow.

For starters, here is proof of Morrissey's 2004 statement of support for Unite Against Fascism, a militantly anti-NF/BNP camapign.

http://www.uaf.org.uk/aboutUAF.asp?choice=4

And here's his support of the explicitly anti-racist Amnesty International

http://www.nndb.com/org/761/000051608/

And while they may not have played an actual RAR gig they did play an anti=apartheid benefit as mentioned here

http://www.visi.com/fall/gigography/gig86.html

here

http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2005/12/21/do_as_i_say.php

and here

http://foreverill.com/interviews/1987/thorn.htm

Find someone else to smear Mr BNP supporter/Morrissey hater/both. FFS.

-JG 23.41 29.3.06

• • • Well done! a comprehensive set of links that will (hopefully) finally stop the accusations that Morrissey is in any way a racist. Ask me

I've added lyrics from "Irish Blood English Heart" which I think are more pertinent to this topic than those already posted from "You Are The Quarry".

Greta Garbo

I've never seen it mentioned that 'Morrissey used to live in an apartment owned by Garbo' outside of wikipedia. I think this needs to be deleted unless anyone cares to provide evidence.

Morrissey

I think Morrissey is a great guy and told it like it was back in the 80s, when our Brave Men died.

He should be forgiven and allowed to move on, and not held hostage in this Bush-created world terrorist scam. Brandubh Blathmac 00:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC) This can be seen in the infamous documentary The Impotence of Being Morrissey.

Sparks

A request for a peer review of the Sparks article has been made here Wikipedia:Peer review/Sparks (band). Since Morrissey is such a fan maybe you would have a look and help it alongKaptKos 19:42, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Too much focus on later years

Is it me or is there a disproportionate amount of text devoted to Quarry and specifically Tormentors? In the grand scheme of things (i.e. in two weeks when the press stop caring) ROTT is in no way more important, and probably a lot LESS important that Viva Hate. Encyclopaedically speaking.Karlusss 20:22, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Very true. Some of the stuff needs to be moved onto the page for ROTT, the other can just be deleted. SaltyWater 20:53, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Tori Amos

Perhaps the Tori Amos feud should be moved from the trivia section to the 'feuds within the music industry' section.

Kat 01:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Trivia

Is the trivia section absolutely necessary? It's a horrible mess and makes the article seem a bit amateur-ish. maxcap 18:51, 12 May 2006 (UTC) On second thought, does anyone think it might be a good idea to split this article into one detailing the band, and another on Morrisey as a personality, and his politics etc? maxcap 22:44, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Where would you want to draw that line, though? There would be a decent amount of cross-over between the pieces. Xinit 00:06, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I feel that the section showing who are "ans" of "influenced" by Morrissey is quite good as it shows his reach accross the Racial/ Atlantic/ Class/ Genre divides respectivly. It shows how much of a pop culture figure Moz has become and I feel it should be reinstated. (maybe as a link from his main page?) Blu sonic 02:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I restored it, but, alot of that information could be directly in the article(s) if it was split. Some of it is unnecessary. For example, the stuff that relates more to the Smiths could be added to that page, if it isn't already. maxcap 11:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

This trivia section is full of unencyclopedic cruft. We don't need a listing of bands who were fans of The Smiths, or books / songs that were named after their songs. What's worse, the info is totally unorganized. If this information was at all relevant to Morrisey's life, it should be included in the body of the article somewhere. Mangojuice^talk 22:16, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Very much agreed. Some minor bits in the Misc section could be incorporated into the main article but the rest is complete bollocks. SaltyWater 23:02, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I thought the part with the bands/artists showed his reach as an artist seeing as the "fans" were so diverseBlu sonic 03:52, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I guess my point is, if that's interesting, it should be in the body of the article, not under "trivia", where it's just a collection of random statements. Mangojuice^talk 12:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The whole existence of the trivia section bothers me... these are supposed to be points worthy of being included in an article, but they're not worthy of being called anything but trivia? Develop any points that can be developed, and move them into the body of the article... I'd move to just kill the trivia section completely. Xinit 00:04, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

What about after the document is split? shouldn't it be easier to incorporate the "trivia" into the main boby of text? Some of it is meaningless, Moz liked boxing, (no offence but so what?), Moz Supported Man U (and?) etc. Blu sonic 03:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

There's a lot of rubbish in there. It could do with being removed. Some of of the little facts are okay and could be incorporated into the main part of the article, while other bits would be most welcome in the bin. SaltyWater 22:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Trivia cut

I've cut the trivia out. Before replacing anything, it needs to be properly cited and evaluated for being actually about Morrisey, instead of belonging to an article about a song, an article about a book, about The Smiths, etc. Jkelly 01:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

• In June 2004 the British newspaper The Observer asked Morrissey what his top ten favourite British albums were. He responded he could only think of one great British album: For Your Pleasure by Roxy Music.
• Morrissey used to be a supporter of Manchester United football team and his favourite player was Eric Cantona. In the documentary The Importance of Being Morrissey (2002), he mentions that he no longer follows football, and would only start to watch again if the players would kick about a politician. "If there was Tony Blair instead of a round object I'd be captivated."
• The book The Boy with the Thorn in His Side by Peter Wentz of the band Fall Out Boy is named after a song by The Smiths and contains lyrics and mentions of The Smiths and Morrissey.
• The bands Pretty Girls Make Graves and Shakespear's Sister are both named after songs by The Smiths. The Ordinary Boys are also named after a Morrissey solo title.
• The Band Brand New wrote and produced a song entitled "Mixtape" that appeared on thier Your Favorite Weapon with the line "the way you always critize The Smiths and Morrissey"

The bands that are named after Smiths/Morrissey stuff is obvious, it would be pointless citing them. Its like having to site the statment "the water is wet" IMO. the others are true but i agree citation on this article needs to be doneBlu sonic

References

There's a ton of references to external sites, some of which could be dead; please verify links and change to proper references rather than direct external links. There are quotes, specifically in the feuds section that aren't cited and need to be.

Also, the bibliography needs to be addressed... BY and ABOUT are two different things entirely; they should be split. Listing of the books properly with ISBN, etc would be nice as well. Xinit 00:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

External Links

I've run through the "Fan sites" to verify that they still exist, and the ones that contained obvious copyright violations (bootleg downloads, scanned photos from magazines, etc) have been removed. Anything that was a fan blog was removed on vanity grounds, and a couple of the better looking sites with a lot of information (and a nice layout) were kept as representative of the fan community. See WP:EL#What_should_be_linked_to...

"In general, any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article here would have once it becomes an example of brilliant prose."

Xinit 00:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The Fan Sites that people are adding back are not useful for the context of this article. A site that features new photos that are copyright-infringing or a site that lists bootlegs for download, or a fanatic's blog about Morrissey, or a fan forum that has a small handful of posts; non of these add anything verifiable or useful to the article. I propose that They ALL be deleted, and will do so in 24 hours if there is no dispute.

I agree with your action. However, I think that the first three links should be restored, as they provide information that cannot be found elsewhere. Morrissey-solo is essentially an in-depth collection of recent news stories on Morrissey and worth linking to, while True To You is semi-official and Passions Just Like Mine has an excellent discography. The others should remain out though. Acegikmo1 22:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I very much agree. SaltyWater 21:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Notable sites re-added. Please bring to talk page before action is taken to remove them. SaltyWater 23:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Where is the bit that links from It has been suggested that this article be split into multiple articles accessible from a disambiguation page. (Discuss) ?

I can't find it in here. Don't suppose someone could tell me which paragraph it is please?

Songs with homosexual themes

Presently the article cites "This Charming Man", "Handsome Devil", "Swallow On My Neck", "Hand in Glove", "Roy's Keen" and "Dear God Please Help Me" as songs with homosexual themes. In addition, "Shoplifters of the World Unite," "Pretty Girls Make Graves," and even "Alma Matters" have been interpretted with homosexual themes or indications while not being directly about homosexual longing. "Alma Matters"'s lyrics are pretty broad, but Morrissey has commented that it was about being in touch with one's sexuality (for example, your female side if you're a male). "Shoplifters of the World Unite" is well-known to be critical of the anti-homosexual ammendment, Section 28. "Pretty Girls Make Graves" is moreso about not being attracted to females, rather than about being homosexual ("I'm not the man you think I am"). I'm sure there are more songs that could be brought up, but at the moment none come to mind.

This is a new comment. (the fact you didn't sign yours might create some confusion).

Um, "homosexual themes"? Let me see... "Hand In Glove"? I've heard that oen mentioned many times - could anyone please explain where is homosexuality mentioned in the lyrics?

"Pretty Girls Make Graves" is not about homosexuality, it's about male sexual inadequacy - if there is any reason stated, it's in "sorrow's native son, he will not smile for anyone"/"rise for anyone" - if I was to make a guess, I would say that this most probably refers to depression. The problem further identified: 'I could have been wild and I could have been free, but nature played this trick on me'... Why would homosexuality stop a man from being wild and free?!

"Alma Matters" - ? Are you referring to the famous line 'in part and in hole' (spelled like that in the lyric sheet)? I see how that might be seen as referring to bisexuality, but don't see how that can be interpreted as 'homosexual', especially considering the most common slang meaning of the word 'hole'??

"Roy's Keen" - meh. I won't even comment on that one.

"Swallow On My Neck" - debatable. 'I don't know why I held out so long for me and you... until he drew a swallow on my neck...' I've seen people go on and on about the 'swallow' thing - yes, it might be an actual (fake) tatoo (he did have a taoo of swallow on his hands) or a lovebite, or both. So he might be referring to a guy giving him a lovebite ('and more') - so what? It's not exactly a secret that Morrissey has had sexual experiences with both men and women, he's admitted that much, he's also said that he'd be with a person he loved and who loved him, no matter if they were male or female. So what is the big deal? (Surprisingly, nobody ever tried to really analyse this song - everybody seems to be speculating who 'he' is, while I would be even more interested to know who is 'you' that he is addressing in the song.)

"Dear God Please Help Me" - well, here's what Morrissey has said about it, when asked: "I don't think homosexuality is mentioned anywhere in the song." (NME intervew) He goes on to comment on the line 'he puts his hand on my knee' saying that 'it's matter of having an interest from someone who is a 'he', which is something you can't help and can't orhestrate...' Make of that what you will. From what I can hear, it's all very ambiguous, as always. there's a line 'he puts his hand on my knee'... and then there's an explicit reference to sex at the end, which may be with the same person or another - because he switches to 'you'... and the line 'Now I'm spreading your legs with mine in between'... hm, well, I would hardly say that it sounds homosexual in itself, would you? I don't know about you, but if I heard someone say that, I wouldn't think: 'oh, oh, this must be about homosexual sex!'

"This Charming Man" describes what can be called a homoerotic situation that the narrator finds himself in - but I never thought that the narrator ('jumped-up pantry boy' is homosexual; I wouldn't be so sure that he even feels any desire, love or real attraction to the man himself - but this is all a matter for discussion, and the song is far too complicated and invites many possible interpretations. (I would point out the references to poverty, insecurity, enjoying someone's attention etc... not to mention the interesting connection to the movie 'Sleuth'.)

" "Shoplifters of the World Unite" is well-known to be critical of the anti-homosexual ammendment, Section 28." So what? Morrissey's views on the subject of alternative sexualities and sexual freedom are well-known (I presume). I don't see how being critical of a conservative amenedment which resticts human rights of people who are homosexual, bisexual, basically in any way sexually different, equates 'oh, the writer of this song must be gay!'

But... "Handsome Devil"?? This one I always found very funny. is it because of the deliberately ambiguous title? Do people assume that 'handsome' must refer to a man? Aren't you aware that it's also used for women (especially those whose beauty is statuesque and striking rather than sweet and tender), and that in 19th century English literature it was quite common to call a good-looking women 'a handsome woman' (example: Jane Austen's novels) - which is something Morrissey must have been aware of? (And moreover, he said once that he knew many women who can be described as handsome' and men who can be decribed as 'pretty'.) Funny how people always go 'oh, this is a gay song!' without thinking much, while in fact... it's far from that. OK, so there's the line 'who will swallow whom'... but with lyrics such as 'let me get my hands on your mammary glands' and 'a boy in the bush is worth two in the hand'? ;) "Homoerotic desire', indeed! LOL That's as 'heteroerotic' as it gets. Do I have to spell it out? You do know what 'mammary glands' are? And that the word bush, besides its literal meaning, also refers to a certain part of female anatomy. :) hint: some other words related to the same organ are 'hole', 'pussy'.

BTW 'flap' can also refer to a part of that organ - still, interestingly, none of the hunters of sexual double entendres in Morrissey's lyrics has ever suggested that "Alsatian Cousin" is heteroerotic, despite the line 'with your tent-flap open wide'. ;) I'm not saying he must have meant anything other than the actual tent-flap, but isn't it interesting that people are always ready to discover any possible 'homoerotic' meanings, but are always blind to the 'heteroerotic' ones (even when they're bloody obvious, as in the quoted lines of Handsome Devil)? I don't see people going on about "Wonderful Woman", "Half A Person", "Disappointed", or any song that explicitly defines the object of affection as female, a 'she' ("I Won't Share You" is one of them ('the note I wrote as she read, she said: Has the Perrier goen ot my head, or is life sick and cruel instead'), yet people seem determined to overlook it and keep insisting it's about... Johnny Marr?! I suppose we should also assume that a song that mentions a 'he' is about a woman?!) Where are the articles listing the shockingly 'heteroetoric' imagery in Morrissey's lyrics and artwork (Alexandra Bastedo on "Rank"?! Diana Dors on "Singles"?!), analysing the possible sordid sexual meanings of Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others, or calling The Public Image a 'coming out' song??? ;)

Yep... that's what I call a DOUBLE STANDARD.

But, if you imagine just for a moment that homosexuality were the norm and heterosexuality was 'alternative sexuality', you'd be doing exactly the above and going on about how 'obviously straight' Morrissey must be...and why doesn't he finally admit it? How long is he going to be in denial/tortured about his heterosexuality? ;)

Come on people...we supposedly live in a liberal society where homosexuality is considered no better or worse than heterosexuality...right? RIIIIIGHT??? :p

Nightandday 10:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Sexuality section

While I'm not sure that such a large portion of the article needs to be devoted to discussing his sexuality, part of his appeal is probably in some way related to his sexual ambiguity, and that deserves some mention. maxcap 15:51, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

There's no "probably" about it. Sex, sexual ambiguity, and speculation about Morrissey's sexuality have been a big part of his image and mystique since the start. The homoerotic images on record covers, the camp icons, the lyrics - this isn't a case of someone who has kept his sexuality private. Morrissey has made a big deal of his sexuality without making explicit statements about it, and there has accordingly been a lot of speculation in the press about it. Much of his appeal in the early days was to people (straight or gay) who were uncomfortable with conventional notions of sexuality and masculinity. That absolutely needs to be mentioned in the article. --ajn (talk) 17:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I hate to read that gay or bisexual celebs mentioned in WIKIPEDIA are always being given "novels" about their sexual preference. Funny! I never read explicit, lengthy "stories" about the sexuality of straight celebrities. Sexual preference is of no importance at all. Who has sex with whom is totally irrelevant for an encyclopedia. --Fromgermany 20:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

It is quite clear that many people who have studied Morrissey's music consider that his sexuality has influenced it. As such, it is an encyclopaedic subject. David | Talk 20:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Morrisey himself places importance on it by being so coy about it. maxcap 20:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedic subject? I wouldn't say so. If it were an encyclopedic subject with encyclopedic relevance then we would have to discuss the sexuality and sexual preference of ALL celebrities, the gay and the straight ones. Like I stated above I think it's rather unfair that gay sexuality is still considered as something which needs extra mentioning. This shows me that gays are still treated as "something alien and unnatural". We must stop regarding homosexualiy as something special. It's as normal and as uninteresting as heterosexuality. Therefore we do not need this extra mentioning at all!!!!! --Fromgermany 20:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I've every sympathy with wanting to change society, but it is not our purpose in writing an encyclopaedia. We have to report accurately on society, and in a society in which homosexuality is still largely viewed as unusual, it is still the case that people link homosexuality with other character traits. There are some serious academic studies of Morrissey's music and the effect of his (presumed) homosexuality on it. I don't accept that we should censor these opinions if we happen to disagree with basis on which they were formed. David | Talk 20:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

The point is that Morrissey has used his sexuality as part of his art. There's a common myth among fans that because he's never actually said "I'm gay/bisexual/straight", and has claimed to be celibate, that he's some sort of asexual figure, doesn't present any sort of sexual image, and discussion of the subject is out of bounds. It's not that people are interested in his (implied) homosexuality because it's seen as being odd, people are interested precisely because he's spent his entire career strongly implying it without being explicit, and that's what has caused the speculation and discussion. --ajn (talk) 21:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I think its encyclopedic in morrisseys case. He has made questions over his sexuality far too strong a part of his image for us not to mention it. horseboy 18:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It is an intrinsic part of his music and his public image. There are other cases where I don't feel that the artist's sexuality is encyclopedic, for example, Bob Mould. I can appreciate wanting to be completely neutral on the subject of sexuality, but there are times, such as with Morrisey, where the inclusion of it enriches the article rather than cheapening it. --GentlemanGhost 09:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I'd even disagree that it's necessarily non-encylopedic in the case of Bob Mould; while it's true that his music rarely if ever touches on explicit themes of sexuality, I've seen music critics pointing out in some depth that the tension between Mould and Grant Hart toward the end of their sexual relationship significantly informed the creative dynamic of Hüsker Dü's later albums and hastened that band's demise. Bearcat 19:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

a bit off-topic -about Husker Du: Bearcat: Mould and Hart were never in any kind of sexual relationship, at least if you believe them. Bob Mould even laughed it off (at the time when he was already open about his homosexuality) and I don't see why he would need to lie about that. It's time for people to realize that the mere fact that one guy is homosexual, and the other one is bisexual (that's what I think Hart is, but it wouldn't make any difference if he was homosexual either) does NOT mean that they must have had a sexual/romantic relationship. (Just like a hetero man and a hetero woman can work together without getting into a sexual relationship.) To the disappointment of all the lovers of band slash, the tensions in Husker Du had probably more to do with Hart's heroin use... and Hart has also admitted that he was angry at Bob because he (Bob) had 'a wonderful person' who loved him and took care of him for years, yet he never felt grateful (according to Hart), while he (Grant Hart) had a series of relationships which ended because of his touring and not being at home. I don't think Hart would go so far to make up such a story.Nightandday 10:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The admission by Morrissey that he is no longer celibate is meaningless unless the article also mentioned when he said he was. Could someone please add this? Dev920 18:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that even back in the day when Moz was proclaiming his celibacy, his lyrics never suggested a person who experienced no sexual feelings whatsoever, or one who was happy being celibate — they generally depict a person who has a strong sexual desire, but for a variety of reasons (shyness, difficulty connecting with people sexually and romantically, not being found attractive by potential sex partners, etc.) feels stymied and knocked down and unable to act on that desire, and who experiences profound loneliness because of these barriers. Which is, needless to say, a very different thing than being asexual or celibate-by-choice. FWIW, anyway. Bearcat 19:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

well, Bearcat, I can only say that I completely agree with this statement.

Nightandday 11:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

"It's not that people are interested in his (implied) homosexuality because it's seen as being odd, people are interested precisely because he's spent his entire career strongly implying it without being explicit, and that's what has caused the speculation and discussion. --ajn (talk) 21:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC) "

Sorry? "Strongly implying it without being explicit"?! Could you please provide examples when he implied, strongly or not, that he was homosexual?? I have read / seen pretty much all of his interviews, and I can only think of statements where he has strongly implied (even explicitly, you might say) that he is NOT homosexual. You might only say that he has implied that he is bisexual, or something between bisexual and asexual. But certainly not homosexual, if that still means (as I presume) that one is attracted to the same sex while not being attracted to the opposite one, or at least that one is more attracted to the same sex than the opposite one. And Morrissey has never said or implied that. Nightandday10:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Critique in intro

"Detractors usually describe his work as depressing,"

I find my favorite artists "depressing". Can someone find a better reason as to why some people would look at his work negatively? --A Sunshade Lust 23:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Manic Street Preachers' attack on Moz

To the feud's section I added a bit about the comments made about Morrissey by Manic Street Preachers' Nicky Wire and Richey James Edwards.

"Removal of information"

This morning's edit by Bearcat removed nothing, and improved the prose. Please read carefully before assuming that major alterations are for the worse. --ajn (talk) 19:54, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Links

That flash video of "Morrissey Dance" is not informative, and does not belong on Wikipedia. Please check the policies on links before adding one. Thanks. -- ¢² Connor K.   17:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)