Talk:Butrint

Chaonians

Since when are Chaonians Greeks? They were not allowed to participate in the Greek games in the Olympics. They also had a separate oracle, at Dodona. They did not speak Greek and did not live in city states. All of Epirus was by definition different from Hellas. From Encyclopedia Britannica: "To the 5th-century historian Thucydides, the Epirotes were “barbarians.” (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/190156/Epirus) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.236.58 (talk) 09:27, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

History

We must get this straight. Butrint was not a Greek colony, like Epidamnus, Apollonia, Oricum or Corfu. It was an indigenous settlement, very clearly an Epirot city, a centre of the Caonian tribe, under the rule of the Akkiad kings in Arta and then the Epirot League. Therefore we cannot call it and ancient Greek City as is constantly done done here (depsite my efforts to keep changing it). Whether Epirus was Greek, Illyrian, or something else entirely (my own personal belief) is neither here nor there and I'll leave others to argue over this point. But what I must insit on is getting its designation correct, Epirot, not Greek please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.105.182.17 (talk) 12:14, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, the Chaonians were an ancient Greek tribe... A Macedonian (talk) 14:00, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

No, they were Epirots which is somthing very different. They had their own Kings and political and social traditions, distinct from Greece to the south. Related to the Greeks yes, just as they were related to the Illyrians, but with their own quite distinctive identity. They wrote in Greek and some of them at least may have spoken a dialect of Greek, but this is I'm afraid no indicator of ethnicity in the past. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.105.182.17 (talk) 14:01, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

In order to remain on Wikipedia standarts we must take into account international neutral sources. The way that Hocxa books wrote in Albania history has no room in wiki. It was really a shame for some governments to express unhistorical statements like:

• Butrint or Epirus is and was always Albanian and Illyrian in order to raise nationalistic feelings.

However, if someone wants to write this nationalistic stuff on wiki, he has to create an article with a title like:

• How totalitarian regimes change historical event and books or
• Propaganda and totalitarian regimes.

There is an interested article in prapaganda related to Nazi Germany in wiki, it would be very helpfull. I'm sorry but U.S. Congress library never agreed with totalitarian propaganda. Please read carefully wikis rules--Alexikoua (talk) 11:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Wikipedia's attitude that Butrint is an ancient Greek city, I express my sympathies to Wikipedia's ignorance. First, what the Greeks claim about Epirus is based on only Greek sources. In order to be neutral, Wikipedia must base its articles on Albanian sources, as well. And the Albanian sources clearly point out the Butrint was and remains an Albanian city. It belonged to Epirus, an Illyrian tribe, and it belongs to Albania, the descendants of the Illyrians. If these sources are not enough or suitable, you could always confer with the U.S. Congress Library...--Arber (talk) 14:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Dear Mr "Rory"

Firts of all if you have doubts about my true identity you can contact me by telephone or I am happy to send you my address here in USA. I have no reason to hide my identity as you are doing.

Second those coments about Stalinism facts? Well I am to young to have been influenced by that epidemy, however I see that you write that you have been involve in Albania since 1960. Well we all know who was allowed to visit Albania in those days. Only people who belived in Stalinism or where close to albanian comunist regime and its secret service. You pick wich one. I see that even you write "democracy". Well to me it does explain a lot why you where allowed to visit Albania during the most brutal comunist regime in the Planet

Now back to our argument. Please read the annual Rapport of Butrint Foundation 2003 in regards to a collection of crusaiders coins bought by the english archaeologists under Richard Hodges in Butrint. Is this legal? Albanian Law doesnt allow this.

I am happy to give you more cases if you wish.

Museum of Albanian First Language School in Gjirokastra. Well your argument is very weak. It is the albanian museum of albanian language and it was made an Office for Richard Hodges, yes with aproval of the ex Deputy Mayor of the Town. But have you asked how much money that guy got? Why should a Foundation pay the state officials? You tell me my friend.

I am open to any debate on this issue. As far as Mr. Tare is concern? I do not know him or meet him. I only heard him lecture last year in Harvard University and I have to say I was proud of him representing Albania.

Alket Mertiri Boston

Oh Dear! Despite the odd thoughts on international legal definitions, libel, as expressed by this statement ‘Richard Hodges is accused of buying antiquety [sic] in Butrint’ remains libel and actionable. If there is evidence show it. Claims to have evidence to be shown to me or others in private (as if a meeting were possible) are evidence of nothing. If you’ve got it, show it here or stop writing this sort of drivel.

I’ve been doing some research as well. This historical museum in Argyrokastro, as I now understand it, yes it was converted into an office, with the full agreement of the city council and national monuments inspectorate of the time. Before the conversion it was a decaying wreck with a ‘roof like a sieve’ I am informed. It is at least now watertight, unlike much of the rest of the once wonderful, but rapidly crumbling marvel that is this museum city. But of course, I suspect that this neglect is also someone else’s responsibility.

Why did I edit out Mr. Tare’s name Well it occurred to me that if personalities were to be banned from appearing on this page then the best way forward was to delete them all! What is fairer than that? As for the complaints of Iris Orgicka and Arben Mirtiri about how I insult Albanians, no, I think it is people who canvass absurd publicity, write their own eulogistic Wkipedia pages for example, and twist facts and reality in a fine Stalinist fashion to their own ends, who give Albanians a bad name! It very much reminds me of the days I was involved in radical dialectics. In any case, given that these two complainants seem to share and IP address with my erstwhile opponent as editor of this page, someone who edits the Auron Tare pare page a lot, I have my doubts about the independence of their comments, or indeed their existence.

As for me, I have had connections with Albania since the 1960s, I visit on occasion even these days since ‘democracy’ has come, you may call me Rory. I have contributed on various things, an am interested in the politics of heritage, though the real work has been done by others.

I have left the current page unmodified as together with the history page discussion and history pages it demonstrates clearly the weaknesses of Wikipedia as a truly objective source. Far from removal of names showig the the 'site is not free' it demonstrates quite the opposite! I would concur though what information is 'manipulated by people who are giving false information'. The experiment though is good, and of course I reserve the right to return to editing at some point in the future…

Dear Sir

whom ever is removing the information about the work of albanian team in butrint is making a mistake. This shows that this site is not free and is manipulated by people who are giving false information.

Iris Orgocka

Dear rbremner

you are insolting the albanians by removing the note about the albanian managing team of BUtrint and Mr Auron Tare the person who has saved Butrint form illigal buildings as well as the attemps of certant "foreign archaeologists to control the albanian cultural heritage.

Arben Mertiri

Dear Sir

As a person much invole in the issues of my country and specialy in Cultural Heritage I am willing to prove to you according to official accusations by several albanian authorities, Gjirokastra Town Hall, Cultural experts and archaeology that the work done in albania by Prof. Richard Hodges is seen as a colonian attitude towards "the natives"

Do you know that the First Albanian School open in 1908 in Gjirokastra has been converted to an Office by Richard Hodges?

Would you like me to prove this fact?

Arben Mertiri Boston, MA

P.S Please do write with you name. There is not seriouse to have a debate without a name

Don't believe everything you read in the newspapers! Accusations and hearsay are not evidence and unless someone is willing to provide some solid, legally binding, proof of such allegations then it remains libel.

rbremner

From what I have read in the albanian press Prof. Richard Hodges is very much critisised for his arrogance and atemps to controll albanian archaeology. Albania does deserve better that is why people like Prof. Richard Hodges with a highly colonial attitude should not be alowed to work in the country.

Arben Mertiri Boston, MA

HI

I would like to ad something about Butrint but the page is protected. Can I please be alowed to write.

agron

For the benfit of Wikipedia I should point out that the comments in the last para of 'archaeological excavations' may be construed as libellous to the mentioned Prof. Hodges. The problem appears to be IP 217.24.244.230 (anon) who I see from the history has made several similar changes, a number of the latest of which I have already tried to edit. Can nothing be done against this sort of vandalism? Butrint and Albania deserve better than this!

rbremner

The beginning should be changed, namely the phrase: "Its ancient name was Vouthroton, the modern name for the Roman city of Buthrotum." An ancient pre-roman name cannot be modern for a Roman name ?!? I would sugest something like this : The modern name of the city is Butrint, ancient Greek ( or old name given in Greek, Hellenistic or pre-Roman texts Vouthroton (or with a more correct pronunciation Boutroton), Roman Buthrotum. Also, the phrase "Greek colony of Corfu" doesn't make sense, since there were no other established nations on the island at that time. It should be "Greek settlements" or just cities or just colonies or, to be more precise, "corinthian colonies", if one is sure that the colonies referred to were corinthian and not others.

Richard Hodges is accused of buying antiquety in Butrint

“ ... Greece affected very little the social life and political organization of Epirus. It remained a stranger for this country, to which it granted an extremely high civilization and invested a lot, in order to profit from trade exchanges or obtain a harbor, when advancing toward Adriatic Sea ... ”

P. Marconi Newspaper “Drita” March 8 1938

Will bring more proofs as i consider the Butrinti article by wiki, very innacurate and disgusting by histical standards. --Pinjolli 19:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

It was an epitote city thus Greek

Epirus.It wanst illyrian and is merely on albanian soil today.Megistias (talk) 13:32, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

If it wasn't Illyrian care to enlighten to which one of Greek Polis-es it belonged too?

P.S. The article about Butrint is a disgrace. Please include more sources, there are many historians and archeologist studies for Butrint. --Pinjolli 19:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Sidenote to OP , "== It was an epitote city thus Greek ==" correct this, and wether "Epirus" should be considered Hellenic or not, it's a question to debate yet.--Pinjolli 19:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pinjolli (talk • contribs)

Roman city

Butrint was a Roman a city so please don't label that as weird(scholars deal with the Hellenistic and the Roman Butrint, not with an ancient Greek Butrint), since the remains of the city are from the Roman era, when it was rebuild and almost all the material found in the museum are Roman.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:14, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Moved the page

On Google books: Buthrotum: 29700 hits Butrint: 14300 hits

Therefore, since Buthrotum is twice as common, I have moved the page to "Buthrotum" per WP:COMMONNAME, the policy guiding article names. Athenean (talk) 19:53, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Moved back to proper English name, in case there are desent arguments for this move a proper move request should be initiated.Alexikoua (talk) 19:10, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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*** Buthrotum into Butrint ***

Hey guys, what do you think about to change the name of the article, I mean the name nowadays is Butrint and like Durrës for example it was known as Dyrrachium in Antiquity, so its the historical name. Thank you!

The title should be "Butrint (Roman: Buthrotum)" and I tried without success to change it ... Rob Sherratt (talk) 22:51, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Recent manipulation of sourced parts

It appears there is an obsession to add various parts that are not backed by the available sources [[1]], for example the site appears to be of Illyrian culture & inhabited by Illyrians, though the inlines offer a quite different view. Wrong categories have also been added (Illyrian Albania etc.) Alexikoua (talk) 15:54, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

I have to thank Ioaf. for removing the parts in question. However, this kind of unexplained changes without appropriate citation can't be considered part of a constructive activity.Alexikoua (talk) 17:14, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Quote Virgil Aeneid Text?

The Aeneid text is of great interest to people reading about Butrint. Suggest we include it. The Aeneid contains the following text, translation now free of copyright

SOURCE: Virgil, The Aeneid. REV. OLIVER CRANE, D. D., Corporate Member of the American Oriental Society. Published 1887, Cornell University Library PA 6807.A5C891. Minor edits made by me to remove unwanted colons that mess up Wiki formatting ...

Straightway we bury Phaeacia's airy castles, and onward coast by the shores of Epirus, and soon the Chaonian harbor enter, and straight draw nigh to the lofty city Buthrotum. Here an incredible rumor of issues absorbs our attention: Helenas, Priam's descendant, is reigning o'er Grecian cities [295]

Owning the spouse and the sceptre of Pyrrhus, the son of Priam! Thus to a lord of her country again has Andromache fallen! I was astounded, and kindled my bosom with wonderful longing now to converse with the hero, and know of his marvelous fortunes. Forth from the harbor I stride, forsaking the fleets and the seasides [300]

When, as it happened, her annual feasts and funereal presents. Out in a grove in front of the town, was Andromache making. Hard by a typical Samois' wave, and invoking her Hector's ghost at a green-turfed mound, which she had as a cenotaph hallowed there to his dust, and for purpose of weeping a couple of altars [305]

As she beheld me approaching, and noticed around me the Trojan armor, bewildered and shocked by the grand apparition she stood stark stiff in the midst of her gaze, and the warmth her bones has abandoned; Swoons she, and after a long time barely at length she bespeaks me; "Dost thou an actual person, an actual messenger greet me [310] goddess-born and alive? or, if fostering light hath departed. Where is my Hector?" she said, and she poured forth tears and the whole place filled with her crying. I barely in brief the delirious weeper answer, and bashed, and embarrassed, in faltering utterance stammer; "Yes, I'm alive, and am life through every extremity leading; [315]

Doubt not, for what thou beholdest is real — Ah ! what disaster anon, cast down from so noble a husband, singles thee out, or what fortune sufficiently worthy revisits Hector's Andromache? Art thou the marriage of Pyrrhus preserving?" Down she her countenance cast, and in humbled expression responded: [320]

"Blest thou alone above others, O virgin daughter of Priam, who at the tomb of a foeman, 'neath Troja's imperial ramparts summoned to die, didst never endure the allotting of choices; No, nor hast touched as a captive the couch of a conquering master ! After our country was burned, we, wafted o'er various waters, [325]

Bore the disdain of the stock of Achilles, the insolent stripling. Childbirth in thraldom enduring of him, who afterwards princess Leda's Hermion courting, and Lacedaemonian nuptials, handed me over to Helenus, slave by a slave to be holden; Yet him Orestes, inflamed with a passionate love for his stolen [330] spouse, and goaded by furies, of crimes the vindictive avengers. Takes unawares and assassinates right at the national altars. So, at the death of Neoptolemus, part of the realm fell duly to Helenus, who by the name of Chaonian moorlands called it, the whole Chaonia titled from Chaon the Trojan: [335]

Pergamus added he, and on the hills yon Ilian castle. But what breezes, I pray, and what fortunes have rendered thy voyage safe, or what god hath impelled thee unwittingly on to our confines ? What of the boy Ascanius? Does he survive, and the free air breathe, whom to thee while as yet at Troja: — [340]

O has the boy, though, any regret for the loss of his parent? Tell me to aught of their pristine valor and vigor of manhood. Do such a sire as Aeneas and uncle as Hector incite him?" Such were the strains she was weepingly pouring,and wakening long sobs vainly, when lo! there emerges the hero himself from the ramparts, [345] Priam's son Helenus, and, with many escorting attendants, welcomes his townsmen and leads them rejoicingly up to his thresholds, many a tear-drop shedding with every word that he utters. Onward I wend, and diminutive Troja and, type of the mighty Pergamus, yea and a dried-up stream by the name of the Xanthus [350] own, and a Scaean gateway's thresholds greet with embraces. Teucrans enjoy at the same time, too, their associates' city. Them was the King in his ample porticoes welcoming freely; There in the midst of the court they were quaffing their beakers to Bacchus; Viands were served them in gold, and they even were holding the goblets. [355]

Now has a day and another day glided away, and the breezes beckon the sails, and the canvas is fanned by the freshening south-wind: In these terms I appeal to the prophet, and thus I entreat him: "Native of Troja, a seer of the gods, who the pleasure of Phosbus knowest, who tripods, the Clarian's laurels, who stars, and the varied [360] language of birds, and the signs of the fluttering feather divinest. Say now, for thus far to me all of my course has auspicious augury spoken, and all of the gods have persuaded me on to seek for Italia, and search for the regions that lie in the distance. Only the harpy Celseno, a strange and unfit to be uttered [365]

Prodigy chants, and denounces upon us deplorable vengeance. Namely a loathsome hunger. What perils must I at the outset shun, or pursuing what course can I brave such onerous hardships?" Hereupon Helenus, first having sacrificed duly the bullocks, prays of the deities peace, and unloosing the fillets from off his [370] sanctified head, he himself, O Phoebus, on up to thy thresholds leads me by hand, as I shrank overawed by thy manifold presence. Then from his mouth divine thus discants the oracular pontiff; "Goddess-born — for that thou o'er the deep under auspices grandeur goest, assurance is clear, so the sovereign of gods is allotting [375] fates, and unrolling their issues, and this is the order assigned them — Few of the many behests, as to how thou mayest more safely traverse the alien waters, and land in Ausonia's haven, I will disclose ; for the destinies interdict Helenus knowing more that ensues, and Saturnian Juno forbids him to tell it. [380]

Rob Sherratt (talk) 23:02, 28 May 2018 (UTC)