Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League

Proposal to Archive Sub-projects

I imagine this has been brought up before, but I would like to propose that WP:NFL formally mark all of the team-based sub-projects with {{Historic}}. The only sub-project with any semblance of activity is the Green Bay Packers WikiProject, mostly because I and a few others keep it alive. I have moved WP:PACKERS to a "related WikiProject" on the NFL page instead of a sub-project and am happy to continue maintaining it and keeping it going. However, after reviewing the other sub-projects, I think it would be best if we move forward and archive them. None of them have had any real activity for years. Marking them as historic would be the easy part, but the next part would be nominating all of the associated templates and WikiProject-categories for deletion.

Many may wonder why I think think this is important. Having started and restarted WP:PACKERS, I can tell you how much time and effort it takes to get everything organized, tagged, and cleaned-up to make it all work. If we get new editors to WP:NFL, I would much rather they focus on improving NFL pages for whatever team they like, instead of spending a lot of time trying to restart a sub-project.

For a list of which projects I am discussing, see Wikipedia:WikiProject National Football League#Individual projects. Note that I was bold and tagged the Defunct teams and Referee sub-projects as {{Historic}} because neither sub-project had any real activity (articles weren't tagged with a banner template). Interested to see what everyone's opinion is. Thanks for considering. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 01:28, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

To elaborate, this would also entail the deletion of all of the WikiProject banners (such as {{WikiProject Chicago Bears}}) for these sub-projects, as well as associated assessment categories. Seems like it would be easier to just add the NFL banner, instead of a bunch of teams. Does anyone have an opinion on this? I would like to have some consensus before nominating them for deletion. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:58, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

I say go for it, small time Wikiprojects are both mainly unused and don't serve a purpose that WP:NFL (with way more activity) can't. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 16:13, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

It has been  Done. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:03, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

I didn't notice this proposal until today, and I object. Just because the Vikings subproject (for example) hasn't seen any activity for a while doesn't mean the project isn't still useful. – PeeJay 22:12, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

PeeJay2K3, most of the sub-projects haven't had edits in years (some upwards of 10 years), but if one or more are still useful, than removing the historic tag for that project is fine by me. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 22:27, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Likewise tardy to the party here, but I too object to this. If nothing else, the category structure of tagged pages for each individual project will always be useful. Ejgreen77 (talk) 19:48, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Saquon Barkley's height

We have a problem. I am sure some of you are aware of constant reverting on Saquon Barkley's page regarding his height. The problem is that neither side is wrong, because both 6 ft 0 in (1.83 m) (sources: NFL.com, NFL Combine) and 5 ft 11 in (1.80 m) (source: Giants.com) are easily verifiable. How do we deal with this? – Sabbatino (talk) 16:08, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I would use the NFL source height, and then add a footnote explaining the discrepancy between sources. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:14, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I prefer team info as they get the info directly from the player. NFL.com is also outdated at times, not showing jersey number updates or position changes for weeks/months. I can almost guarantee that eventually, NFL.com will show 5 ft 11 in (1.80 m). ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 18:09, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Unless we come up with a consensus on which source to rely on, we will have people changing his height. I do not have a strong opinion on which source (team or NFL) we should use so I would be happy with any outcome. – Sabbatino (talk) 13:40, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

I think I broke a couple of NFL pages

I was updating the high schools to the new format and was updating the pages of Crespi Carmelite alumni. I updated Devin Lucien's page with no issues. I get to Randy Cross and the same exact edit seems to have broken the page. I'm not sure if this is only happening on my end, but if it's happening with everyone else, you guys can see that the infobox sections have empty space. Can anyone can confirm that you guys see this and if you do, can you figure out why it's happening. I even reverted my edit and it remains the same. I'm pretty sure my edit is what caused it, but weirdly I go to older versions of the page, and the same issue is present. It's very odd. I copy and pasted a different nfl infobox on the same page, and the same things happens, so it seems it's the issue is happening on these specific pages. Same thing is happening with Christian Fauria, Hroniss Grasu, Chris Harper, Babe Laufenberg, and a couple of other Crespi Carmelite alumni pages. Edday1051 (talk) 18:16, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

• Don't know why this is breaking the infobox, I've fixed it (on my end anyway) by changing the <br> tag in the high school parameter to <br/>. Ideally, you should be using the unbulleted list template {{ubl}} instead of breaks anyway. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 19:11, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

thanks man. Everything looks normal on my end. Strange that the lack of the dash did that. I've updated a bunch of pages already and this is the first time that has happened. Thanks again for the help. Edday1051 (talk) 20:03, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

There must be some sort of bug with the football infobox, because I've never seen an issue like this in other infoboxes. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 04:54, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Kansas City Blues / Cowboys

I added some information to this topics talk page but I did not want to edit the topic. The information relates to who owned the team. I included a link that lists George E. Muehlebach as the owner. I have had a few books in the past that also listed him as the owner but I no longer have them and can't remember the books names so that its difficult to find sources online. But, you are free to add the information or use it to maybe find more information about this online. I have put in a question with one of the citys libraries but other than this, I can't really be of further service. It seems the NFL itself doesn't have the information. So, if you can verify the info, you might just get something from the NFL to say thanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kansas_City_Blues/Cowboys Armorbeast (talk) 04:10, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Shoe Steels to Spartans to Lions and Jim Thorpe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:History_of_the_Portsmouth_Spartans#Shoe_Steels

I added the information with links. It's up to you guys if you want to add the information to the topic. It's worth discussion.

Armorbeast (talk) 11:49, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Zeke Moore

Someone had converted this article to a marginally notable basketball player three years ago. I moved that content to Zeke Moore (basketball) and restored the football content, but wanted to ask that someone from this project go in and address the multiple issues with the article. Surprising that this could go on for three years without anyone noticing. Rikster2 (talk) 12:31, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Jay Cutler move discussion

This requested move may be of interest to the members of this project. Lepricavark (talk) 00:28, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Brett Maher (American Football)

This page was moved from Brett Maher (gridiron football) which might be OK, but I'm not sure if the new disambiguation should capitalize both words. It seems as if "American football" is more commonly used for cases like this, but figured I'd ask here to see if that's really the case. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:05, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

I changed it to lower case.—Bagumba (talk) 07:19, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look Bagumba. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:16, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject 49ers is not inactive

As a member of this WikiProject, I am restoring it to active status, prior to the beginning of the 2018 season, which looks to be an interesting one for the Niners. Cheers! Jusdafax (talk) 16:27, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Going to work on (slowly) destubbing all of our stubs. Kees08 (Talk) 20:13, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Many thanks! And we need to fix the redirect, but it’s not in my skill set. The Talk page should go to WikiProject Niners, not here. Jusdafax (talk) 20:37, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Can someone re-assess this article

Hi! So I know almost nothing about football and the NFL but I've taken an interest in the Vontae Davis article after the recent events at the Bills game. I've been trying to clean it up and add sources. I think it's gone a little past start class (its current assessment, but that was for the article as it stood in mid-2009), and its importance to the WikiProject hasn't been assessed yet (I would say maybe... mid based on y'all's subpage with the guidelines for importance). Was wondering if someone could hop on over and re-evaluate the article so I have a better sense of what I can be doing. cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 00:53, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Changes to "Pre-draft measurables" table

Just want to let everybody know that Frauwa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has changed the information in the "Pre-draft measurables" tables on various players' pages. I did not look through all of them, but there are differences from the officially announced results by the NFL. – Sabbatino (talk) 11:05, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Let's do a case-by-case analysis of sources wherever you see fit. I have relied on the official NFL Combine numbers. In cases where players did better at the Pro Day, I have used those numbers, although the official combine measurables have usually been lend primacy, stemming from an assumption of superior testing equipment at the combine. So, all the changes have been sourced and originate with the NFL. I am happily willing to discuss any changes with anyone. - Frauwa —Preceding undated comment added 11:21, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

My bigger pircture answer is that a slew of combine measurements is WP:FANCRUFT, and should just be removed. Notable ones can be explained in prose, instead of doing a random trivia drop packed in a bulky table.—Bagumba (talk) 11:54, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

100% agree. A real encyclopedia would not have this number dump under this format. Any notable achievements (such as fastest 40 time at that particular combine) should just be written into prose instead. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 17:38, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Template NFL team merge discussion

There is a merge discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2018 September 17#Template:United Football League (2009) team that editors may be interested in discussing.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 20:05, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

FYI it regards merging Template:Infobox NFL team-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 21:04, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Trying to build consensus on Taysom Hill's infobox position and statistics

Hey all, I have noticed that there have been a lot of back and forth edits on Taysom Hill's page regarding his listed position and statistics. So far I have seen Quarterback, Quarterback & Special Teamer, Quarterback & Kick Returner, and simply "Athlete". I have started a discussion on the article's Talk Page to try and form a consensus on which positions and which statistics to list. Best, GPL93 (talk) 12:41, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Suspended players (for apparently the third or fourth time)

Hey guys, long time no see. Having a disagreement with User:Dissident93 on his talk page about showing players currently suspended by the NFL as members of their respective teams. This topic has apparently already been discussed several times before on this talk page (here, here, here, here, etc.) In the case of Tyrone Robertson, he was suspended by the NFL indefinitely in 2002 and remained on the reserve/suspended list until he was released from it in 2015. I changed his infobox to reflect his membership of the team from 2001-2015, to which Dissident93 reverted my change, saying "come on" as his rationale, as well as "I can't believe how you honestly think he was an active member of the team for this long". I made changes to other player articles to reflect their accurate NFL tenure, including Rolando McClain, R. Jay Soward, and Tanard Jackson. These players are currently on their teams' Reserve/Suspended list because they have not been released yet. Dissident93 wants me to provide evidence that these players were still members of their teams, which I can point to the Robertson case as an example of players remaining on the team's suspended list for a long time before being released. As far as I can tell, based on recent discussions on this page, Dissident93 wants desperately to be able to say a player's career is over, instead of being patient and waiting for the player and his team to make that decision. It is clear in the previous discussions on this talk page that Dissident93 has actually agreed with my argument before, but has now changed his mind because of "extreme example[s]" that "we shouldn't account for". Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:21, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

If a player is on the suspended list indefinitely, what happens to their registration with their team? Surely they're no longer registered with a team once their contract runs out, right? When did Tyrone Robertson's contract with the Bills expire? – PeeJay 21:27, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

When a player is suspended, his contract with the team tolls. Josh Gordon was signed to a four-year contract in 2012, but the contract didn't expire until after the 2017 season due to his being suspended for two entire seasons. Robertson's contract never expired until the Bills terminated it in 2015. Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:31, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

• I need to clarify that I agree with listing them if the team still cares to officially do the same on their roster page. Players like McClain and Jackson haven't been listed/mentioned on the team's official roster in years, and players like Justin Blackmon, who I previously defended in the post you brought up, is also no longer listed on the Jaguars roster. You claiming that Robertson was an active member (by that, I mean attempting to return to the team/go through the reinstatement process, which he obviously never did) of the Bills for nearly 15 years because he just happened to be forgotten on the reserve list (which brings no harm to the team, as they aren't paid/listed against roster number limits) for that long of a time period is just way too technical. We need to account for common sense here, else we could probably find older examples of players being on the team's roster for 50+ years. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:32, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

  So you're saying Mychal Kendricks should not be listed as a member of the Seahawks anymore since he does not appear on the team's website? Despite being suspended days ago and theoretically could return this season? Also, I did extensive research last week and there are currently five players suspended indefinitely but still a member of their respective teams: R. Jay Soward (Jaguars since suspension in 2002), Justin Blackmon (Jaguars since suspension in 2013), Tanard Jackson (Redskins since suspension in 2014), Rolando McClain, and Kendricks. Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:36, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

  He was just recently suspended, you are trying to argue that indefinite suspensions from 2+ years ago belong in the same discussion, to which I disagree. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 17:57, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

This is odd, especially since Dissident93 agreed with this 6 months ago. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 22:58, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Read my first response here, I needed to clarify this. Both Josh Gordon and Ricky Williams were eventually reinstated and played in games again, but the examples Eagles247 provided didn't, which is where I disagree. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 17:58, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

If a team no longer publicly acknowledges a player is on their roster (and the usual way of doing that is having them on their website), what source do we have that they are still on the team's roster? Tarl N. (discuss) 01:55, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

100% my point. There may be players that were indefinitely suspended 20-30 years ago that technically never got removed from the reserve list, to which Eagles247 says they have actually been a member of the team for that long. There has to be a line of common sense here. To make things simple, if the team no longer lists them as a member of the team, then we shouldn't either. Tanard Jackson was listed on the Redskin's suspended list for around a year until just being removed. Can anybody prove he's still a member of the team? How are you so sure that you just didn't miss a transaction for these players somewhere? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 17:57, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Ok, after looking at this closer, this isn't as straightforward as I thought. Especially one like Tyrone Robertson. He may have been on Buffalo's reserve list for 15ish years, but I agree that listing him as a member of the Bills for that length of time is kind of ridiculous. This now has me questioning if a player like Josh Gordon was handled properly. What if he had never been reinstanted? It would have eventually turned into a situtation like Tyrone Robertson. I'm somewhat leaning towards suggesting that an indefinite suspension (or even anything longer than a season) means that they are no longer a member of that team and that their infobox should reflect that. Just having the rights to a player doesn't make them a member of the team. For one example (unrleated to suspensions), the Calgary Stampeders drafted Laurent Duvernay-Tardif in 2014 and they have his rights if he ever decides to quit the NFL and join the CFL, but having the Calgary Stampeders own his rights doesn't get listed in his infobox and no one would argue that it would. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 21:33, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

I think the common sense approach should be: If the team still publicly claims a player, we should list them as such, both on their own page and on the team pages. If a team no longer makes a public claim on a player, unless some unusual circumstance indicates otherwise, we should not list them. It might be worth a footnote in the player's article indicating that external evidence shows a particular team has some specified rights to the player (per WP:RS, citing the evidence), but the team articles and rosters themselves should not list the player. Sound reasonable?

(By the way, I'm on a semester-long wikibreak, rarely editing.) Tarl N. (discuss) 21:56, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

This was pretty much how we already handled it before these recent edits anyway. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 00:51, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

This is a gray area we'll always have to deal with, like how we assume players who haven't played after a few years are retired. We have to use editorial judgement and a bit of WP:OR because often there just won't be sources covering these things. Lizard (talk) 16:11, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Slightly off-topic, but why do we even list players as free agents anyway? If they aren't a member of a team, we should simply write them as "John Smith is an American football player." This way, we don't need to worry about removing "free agent" in 3-4 years after they last played. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 00:53, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

I know I'm late but better late than never. I think that if they come back and play (For example: Ricky Williams and Josh Gordon), then leave their infobox alone. However, if they never return to the team, I'm not sure because their contract isn't terminated. Michael Vick was suspended for two years, then reinstated, then released by the Falcons. This means he was just on the exempt list until 2008. RoyalsLife 15:07, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

"a NFL team" or "an NFL team"

There is a situation at George Taliaferro's page as people keeping using the "a NFL team" formation. The "an NFL team" (same goes to the NBA and NHL) is the correct formation, but people are just ignoring it. Anybody want to clarify this? – Sabbatino (talk) 05:19, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Procedural note: It's OK to start a discussion here and not the actual article page; however, it's good to leave a note there so those other editors (or other new ones) also have access to this discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 05:36, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

It would generally be "an NFL team", because pronouncing N starts with a vowel sound. However, the text in question at the article is "National Football League (NFL) team",[1] in which case the article a goes with National.—Bagumba (talk) 05:36, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I was a bit confused when I looked at the article and saw that it doesn't actually say "a NFL team"; it says "a National Football League (NFL) team", which isn't the same as what you said. If it said "NFL" rather than "National Football League", you'd be right, but in this case "a National Football League (NFL) team" is correct. – PeeJay 07:03, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for clarification. I was sure that "an" should be used. – Sabbatino (talk) 09:35, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

No prob. Thanks for taking the initiative to start the discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 10:16, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

NFL Team Seasons Lists - Need Consensus

All, I undid Ayomaju (talk · contribs) changes at List of Green Bay Packers seasons here. I then checked their contributions and noticed that about there last 100 edits have incorporated similar changes to most of the NFL team seasons lists. I disagree with these changes, specifically the addition of the head coaches column, and unnecessary and outside the scope of the list. For the Packers, we already have List of Green Bay Packers head coaches which provides this information more clearly. I would like to get consensus here though on whether or not these additions are supported. Ayomaju, would you please explain the purpose of these changes and whether you gained any consensus for making them across all the various team lists? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:06, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

• I agree with you, we already have a better page of this sort of info. Seems to me like they are trying to replicate the Pro Football Reference format for it. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 18:56, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Providence Steamrollers

New to this. I am wondering why the Providence Steamrollers do not appear in the history of the NFL. What is the reason?