Talk:Highland dress

Women's dress

There's very little detail on female dress, and no pictures whatsoever. Pretty serious gap if you ask me. 82.5.34.152 (talk) 13:55, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

This article seems to be focused on Highland Dress as a specific form of men's wear, not the clothing of highlanders. I would similarly expect little discussion of women's dress in an article about tuxedos or men's dress in evening gowns. Dress tartans are more modern creation, like the pant-suit, and are rarely seen outside of highland dance performances. I have never seen one at a ceilidh or wedding and would imagine any woman wearing one to get some amused looks and rather lewd questions about her pants.

Montrose Doublet

I added a waistcoat is not worn with a Montrose doublet either. I can't find a source, but as it is a high-collared double-breasted jacket that fastens up to the collar. Even if one wanted to wear a waistcoat, it could not be seen. I also cannot find a Montrose waistcoat for sale anywhere.

Scottish dress

I have edited the entry to show the "correct" spelling of gillie. While gillie itself is in effect an Anglicised spelling, the introduction of the "h" to read "ghillie" was an affectation to make the word appear "more" Gaelic. --said someone anonymous on 22 Dec 2005, without signing

Not really. the "h" is actually there to stop people pronouncing it as "jillie". I would put it back in if I were you. -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Highland v. Lowland

"Highland Dress" now redirects to this article. Historically, that's bullshit, if you'll allow me to speak plainly. Whereas Lowlanders wore clothing common to the English, Highlanders wore clothing common to Gaels, including themselves and the Irish. This should be reflected by this article, at least with a section divide. Neither one is any more "Scottish" than the other, so there's no precedent for one to be favoured by the article. File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 01:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I think "Highland dress" is a much better title for this article than "Scottish apparel". Can we reach a consnsus to change the name? - PKM (talk) 19:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Yep. Never heard the phrase "Scottish apparel" before. "Highland dress" is a far more common name for it. -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

This page should definitely be renamed Scottish Highland Dress.80.171.194.164 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added on 19:28, 24 February 2009 (UTC).

Scots Highland attire or Scots Highland dress are the correct terms.Msml (talk) 12:29, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

For this reason I added "Highlands and Isles" of Scotland in defining "highland dress". Highland dress is certainly not THE traditional dress of Scotland. Following on, I have expanded the section of Lowland and Border dress with links to the page on the Border maud (plaid), referenced, but without much in detail. Dougalbnz (talk) 12:22, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Requested move

Scottish dress → Highland dress — Somewhat belatedly, per the discussion above move over existing redirect. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:01, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support. Highland dress is what it actually is. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:23, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

 Done, with no objections if someone wants to add 'Scottish' on the front. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 19:01, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Arisaid

There's no Wiki article for Arisaid. I discovered this while looking for something else, and since I'm far from a costume expert I'm not comfortable making the article myself, but there ought to be at least a stub-class article on it. CouldOughta (talk) 03:52, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

That cite is in gaelic and completely dubious, as it contradicts all other information on kilts in wikipedia. Is there an image of these seals? 209.131.62.113 (talk) 18:10, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Here's the seal of Alexander I-- shows him wearing a perfectly ordinary tunic, and the reverse shows him in armour. Wikipedia article including steel-engraved images of the same seal.

Here's David I, again, wearing an unremarkable tunic and on the reverse, in armour. Also, steel engravings at Wikimedia Commons

\And this one's Malcolm IV (not a great image, I'm afraid), and on the reverse, again, in armour. I'm afraid I couldn't find a better image of this one.

So, no kilts on those guys. Beastiepaws (talk) 07:50, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Kilty-Police

The recent additions regarding formal wear are ludicrously prescriptive and though they may well reflect the cited text it seems to be an expression of the views of the most hardline faction of the Highland-Dress-Police. Who legislates for these so called rules? If somebody reckons they do, that could be cited but lists of allowed and not-allowed items to this level of detail seem pretty daft or should, at best, be put in the context that some only hold views that certain rules must be followed. The idea that any of this is truly traditional is also dubious, if meant to reflect usage in the period when highland dress was every-day wear. It's possibly sort-of-traditional for post revival, 19th century onwards highland dress I guess. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:10, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

There is always the kilt police out and about! I made a few edits to white tie, which may help reflect the more broad nature of highnald white tie. There is a great picture of the royals at Windsor which shows the breath of highland white, with both royals wearing a black bow tie, but I need to figure out how to post it with the copyright information.

Perhaps a note at the start of the section on the breath of acceptable highland formal regalia is needed to keep the kilt police a bay. I think this section, and the detail in needed to control the kilt police, as well...

Glen Larson 05 Dec 12

Citations

Difficult making citations where there is no available reference material. A number of popular social media groups are discussing modern highland dress, and I have tried to distill that material for the page. Many people use this page for reference in how to wear highland dress, the kilt and all, as well it is used by other sources for an example. Trying to add material to help people... Glen Larson 06 Jan 2016

If you do not have reliable sources, do not add material to articles. Chat from social media groups is very much not a reliable source and adding unsubstantiated personal opinions will help nobody. Please also familiarise yourself with WP:MINOR. Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:43, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

There is no reference for the whole entire section. The whole section for modern highland dress is so inaccurate that it should just be simply deleted; however, some people may want information. Thanks for being wiki police and keeping Wikipedia inaccurate, and thus people who look to it for a reference on modern highland dress turning up at events looking foolish... Glen Larson 06 Jan 2016

Adding additional uncited material is not the solution to an already poor and largely unsupported article. I'm not in any way defending the existing content, just trying to stem the addition of further such material. By all means delete away. If you are adding, source it reliably. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:06, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Looking at the problem of bot deleting and adding information, I don't know if it would be better to delete towards something simple towards what is outlined by Debretts; http://www.debretts.com/british-etiquette/british-behaviour/h/dress-codes/highland-dress-and-kilt-etiquette or, more detailed like the what is covered over multiple web pages on Scottish Tartan Authority http://www.tartansauthority.com/highland-dress/modern/how-to-wear-the-kilt/some-advice which seams to reflect material from Dr. Fiddes online booklet downloadable from Scotweb https://www.scotweb.co.uk/kiltsandtartan/

Debretts just outlines formal wear, thus day wear is missed. Fiddle's booklet covers other areas such as casual and fashion; however, types such as unikilt )var, utility kilt) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilt#Contemporary_kilt are still missed.Glen Larson 09 Jan 2016

After a quick look at them, they both appear to be reliable and useful sources, if coming at things from a different angle. Debretts seems like a useful short summary as long as it is borne in mind that it is from the perspective of their views on etiquette, rather than the topic of Highland Dress as a whole. Prescriptive content such as "men not entitled to wear the kilt", if to be included, should be qualified as being one view on the matter and probably attributed within the text, not just as a ref. As you say, the other sources provide a lot of detail, which would seem to be useful as sources for this article. I do not know what a unikilt is. Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:08, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for responding as this edit to your post above is presumably intended to do (it is best to respond in a separate post rather than to alter an earlier one, rendering the subsequent posts potentially confusing to other users). The article makes no mention of the term unikilt - is it a synonym for "contemporary kilt"? If so, if the kilt article section covers it (although it could do with some further citations), best to make only brief if any mention here at Highland Dress, with a link to the kilt article section. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:52, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, not good on all those wikisms... Made some edits to the page, and I think it works and flows better.

? I haven't used any "wikisms". Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:02, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Improvements and comments

I cleaned up the article and made major contributions to the layout because when I first saw it I was horrified. This article lacks a lot of detail and it requires a considerable amount of work. I tried my best to at least organize it so that it's more pleasing to the reader but more needs to be done. I repositioned images and created galleries. I have a few comments.

1. There is a section on day wear dress and another for the semi-formal dress. If that's the case what is considered formal?

2. If white and off-white hose should be avoided with day and semi-formal dresses can white hoses be worn with the formal dress?

3. The image of David McLeod shows a "formal black tie Highland regalia". Is that considered a formal dress?

4. The black and white tie sections cannot be sections on their own. They must be subsections of a specific dress, either formal or informal. On their own they don't make sense.

5. The Highland dress for women is basically inexistent.

6. Images of accessories such as sporran and sgian-dubh are missing. They really should be added.

7. Aside for better descriptions and solid sources this article needs some good images to visually show what is informal and formal. Also, it needs images of tartan setts since those are the essence of the Highland dress.

8. A history section should be added to explain how the Highland dress started, outlining the evolution from the ancient to the modern dress.

9. Can a tie be used with any form of the Highland dress or the bowtie is the norm?

ICE77 (talk) 07:50, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

The main problem with highland dress is that there are few good references with many 'others' using this article as a main source. I'll provide answers as the best I can but don't have references other than those in the article. Forums on xmarksthescot.com have long discussion on highland dress. As well, another problem is that good photos have copyright issues...Glenlarson (talk) 18:30, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/32/0d/87/320d87de5f3b18aee9cdb914d3777c15--prince-andrew-prince-william.jpg

1. There is a section on day wear dress and another for the semi-formal dress. If that's the case what is considered formal?

Formal seams to be added to the day wear, perhaps to differentiate from casual day wear. Semi-formal dress comes from the Scottish Tartan Authority reference. It seams to have been developed to give guidance for those that receive invitations to weddings that say semi formal. Highland dress only had two forms of dress initially, day and evening. A lot is done to fit highland dress into the various terms. Glenlarson (talk) 18:30, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

2. If white and off-white hose should be avoided with day and semi-formal dresses can white hoses be worn with the formal dress?

Basically, no, pure white hose should be avoided in all forms of dress; however, there are lots of photos of good Scots wearing white hose. White hose is popular with rental companies because of ease of cleaning. Cream is always a better choise over pure white, but coloured hose is always preferred.Glenlarson (talk) 18:30, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

3. The image of David McLeod shows a "formal black tie Highland regalia". Is that considered a formal dress?

Yes, and he wears a Prince Charlie jacket (PC). The PC is usually considered not formal enough jacket for white tie' however, when that style of coat was developed, the PC was initially marked in catalogs worn with a white tie. A black bow tie is usually worn with highland dress for either black tie or whit tie events, although there are areas that wear a white bow tie for those events. Glenlarson (talk) 18:30, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

4. The black and white tie sections cannot be sections on their own. They must be subsections of a specific dress, either formal or informal. On their own they don't make sense.

Sure, it could be formal evening dress style. Glenlarson (talk) 18:30, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

5. The Highland dress for women is basically inexistent.

Yes, unfortunately. Most think of only males in kilts for highland dress. At most events, ladies usually wear the same type of clothing, although there are a few highland ladies dress being now being seen worn.Glenlarson (talk) 18:30, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

6. Images of accessories such as sporran and sgian-dubh are missing. They really should be added.

Sporran and sgian-dubh have their own pages with photos. Glenlarson (talk) 18:30, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

7. Aside for better descriptions and solid sources this article needs some good images to visually show what is informal and formal. Also, it needs images of tartan setts since those are the essence of the Highland dress.

Casual dress would be nice. Tartan has its own page. Glenlarson (talk) 18:30, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

8. A history section should be added to explain how the Highland dress started, outlining the evolution from the ancient to the modern dress.

sureGlenlarson (talk) 18:30, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

9. Can a tie be used with any form of the Highland dress or the bowtie is the norm?

A long tie for day use, and a bow tie for evening is the norm.Glenlarson (talk) 18:30, 23 October 2018 (UTC)