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Ghetto or ghetto?

There seems to be a major issue of consistency regarding the term "ghetto." It is capitalized most times, but not all times. There does not seem to be a standard determining the capitalization. For consistency's sake, we should choose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TRM001 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The numbers

It's not true that of the 400,000 only 300,000 died. The US Museum says that 300,000 died or were deported (it means died) during one Summer. The Polish page says:

  • 92,000 inside the ghetto
— Thanks, I will take care of this. Source in Polish is not hotlinked. Barbara Engelking, Jacek Leociak: Getto warszawskie. Przewodnik po nieistniejącym mieście. Warszawa: Stowarzyszenie Centrum Badań nad Zagładą Żydów, 2013, s. 71. ISBN 978-83-63444-27-3 Poeticbent talk
— Disputed. According to German records, including the official report by SS Brigadeführer Jürgen Stroop, 265,000 Jews were transported in freight trains from the Warsaw Ghetto to Treblinka during the period from 22 July to 12 September 1942.[1][2] After the explosion (19 April 1943), Treblinka received only about 7,000 Jews from the capital for fear of similar incidents;[3] the remaining 42,000 Warsaw Jews were deported to Majdanek instead.[1] See: below. Poeticbent talk
  • a dozen thousands during the Erntefest.
— Aktion Erntefest by the SS was conducted at the Majdanek concentration camp and its subcamps, purposed to liquidate the remaining Polish Jews in the Lublin reservation and the Lublin Ghetto within the General Government territory, including its entire slave-labour camp workforce Poeticbent talk

Xx236 (talk) 06:51, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

During the two months of summer 1942, about 254,000 – 265,000 Ghetto inmates,[4] men, women and children, were sent to Treblinka and exterminated there. The number of at least 300,000 is provided for two death camps with the inclusion of the Ghetto falling considered by many a part of the operation.[5][6][7]
  1. ^ a b Holocaust Encyclopedia (10 June 2013). "Warsaw Ghetto Uprising". US Holocaust Memorial Museum. Archived from the original on 2 May 2012. Retrieved 25 August 2013.
  2. ^ Court of Assizes (1965), Excerpts From Judgments (Urteilsbegründung). AZ-LG Düsseldorf: II 931638, Düsseldorf, Germany: digitized by Shamash Network {{citation}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
  3. ^ Young, Clancy (2007), Treblinka Death Camp Day-by-Day, Holocaust Education & Archive Research Team, H.E.A.R.T {{citation}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
  4. ^ "Warsaw Ghetto Uprising", United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
  5. ^ Robert Moses Shapiro, Holocaust Chronicles Published by KTAV Publishing Inc. 1999 ISBN 0-88125-630-7, 302 pages. Quote: ... the so-called Gross Aktion of July to September 1942... 300,000 Jews murdered by bullet of gas (page 35).
  6. ^ United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. Retrieved March 6, 2013.
  7. ^ Yad Vashem, Treblinka. PDF file, direct download 75.2 KB. Retrieved March 6, 2013.
Wola

Powązki ?

The source doesn't support the story.Xx236 (talk) 07:07, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Please be specific. What (quote-unquote) "story" are you talking about? The Powązki neighbourhood is part of the Wola district of western Warsaw according to our own Wola article. Other neighbourhoods of Wola include: Czyste, Koło, Mirów, Młynów, Nowolipki, Odolany, and Ulrychów. – I linked Powązki to Wola, when quoting data about ethnic breakdown of Warsaw from before the invasion of Poland in 1939, because we don't have a stand alone article about Powązki neighbourhood except for the Powązki Cemetery.
Source of data: Andrzej Gawryszewski (2009). Ludność Warszawy w XX wieku [Population of Warsaw in the 20th Century] (PDF). Język, narodowość, wyznanie. Warsaw: Instytut Geografii i Przestrzennego Zagospodarowania PAN im. Stanisława Leszczyckiego. pp. 191, 193, 195, 202–203. ISBN 978-83-61590-96-5. ISSN 1643-2312.
Census data: Dzielnice / Districts (1931) Język ojczysty / Mother tongue
Polish Yidish, Hebrew
3. Muranów 7 379 54 919
4. Powązki 70 066 113 457
5. Śródmieście Zachód 117 309 52 131
6. Śródmieście Południe 156 934 8 304
7. Stara Praga 86 767 21 458
8. Marymont 39 489 2 360
Tabela VI.5. Ludność Warszawy według narodowości, języka ojczystego i dzielnic, 30 IX 1921, 9 XII 1931 r. [Table VI.5. Warsaw population by nationality, mother tongue and districts, 30 Sept. 1921, 9 Dec. 1931], p. 195

Wkrótce po zajęciu Warszawy przez wojska niemieckie (30 IX 1939) władze okupacyjne przystąpiły do rejestracji osób pochodzenia niemieckiego, wydając od końca stycznia 1940 r. kenkarty (niem. Kennkarte) – dowody tożsamości, dla osób przyznających się do narodu niemieckiego. Odmienne kenkarty wydawano Polakom.[p. 202]

Reichsdeutsche Volksdeutsche Deutschstämmige
1 VI 1940 – 2 500 1 VI 1940 – 5 500
III 1942 – 12 000 wiosna 1942 – 1 200
31 XII 1942 – 9 401 31 XII 1942 – 10 383
XI 1943 – 13 988 XI 1943 – 3 790
31 XII 1943 – 16 078 31 XII 1943 – 14 682
Tabela VI.8. Liczba cywilnych Niemców w Warszawie, 1940–1943 [Table VI.8. Number of civilian Germans in Warsaw, 1940–1943], p. 203
Poeticbent talk 15:12, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
while most ethnic Germans and Russians lived in Śródmieście as well as in Powązki.. The quoted source doesn't support the statement.Xx236 (talk) 08:41, 19 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please look again. You cannot rely on the tables alone. On pages 202–204 Andrzej Gawryszewski says (direct quote):

Wskazuje to, że Niemcy jako miejsce osiedlenia wybierali dzielnice z liczniejszą ludnością ewangelicką. Pośrednio może oznaczać, że w obu grupach działał wspólny czynnik wyboru miejsca zamieszkania. Najliczniej, w 1/4, ludność niemiecka zamieszkiwała w dzielnicy Śródmieście Południe, obejmującej obszar [202 in PDF] między Al. Jerozolimskimi, Raszyńską, Filtrową, Nowowiejską, Polną, Bagatelą, Belwederską, obrzeże Parku Łazienkowskiego, Podchorążych i na północ od Bartyckiej do Wisły. Była to najelegantsza dzielnica mieszkaniowa Warszawy. W wyborze tej lokalizacji zamieszkania nie bez znaczenia mogło być erygowanie w 1921 r. ewangelickiego kościoła garnizonowego przy ul. Puławskiej 2A, w budynku dawnej cerkwi garnizonowej, z nabożeństwami dostępnymi również dla osób cywilnych. Drugą, równie licznie (476 osób) zamieszkiwaną przez Niemców dzielnicą było Śródmieście Centrum, obejmujące obszar między Al. Jerozolimskimi, Żelazną, Twardą, z pl. Grzybowskim i Bankowym, po Stare Miasto. Dzielnica przylegająca do Muranowa stanowiła, poza funkcją mieszkaniową, centrum handlowe Warszawy. Blisko 200 osób, dokładnie 179, deklarujących niemiecki język ojczysty mieszkało w dzielnicy Powązki ... [204 in PDF] — Andrzej Gawryszewski (2009). Ludność Warszawy w XX wieku (PDF).

Poeticbent talk 17:06, 19 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • And, here is the part of Gawryszewski's book speaking about the German presence in Warsaw during wartime.

Władze niemieckie liczyły na przyciągnięcie ponad 20-tysięcznej rzeszy członków ewangelickiej gminy wyznaniowej... Jednym z motywów ubiegania się o kenkartę Volksdeutsche mogło być prawo do kupowania w lepiej zaopatrzonych sklepach sieci Juliusa Meinla dla Niemców oraz przydziały kartkowe według norm przysługujących ludności niemieckiej.[204 in PDF] Z zestawienia wynika, że liczba cywilnych Niemców w Warszawie w zasadzie nie przekraczała 30 tys. osób... [205 in PDF]

Poeticbent talk 17:15, 19 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You might notice that there's a major discrepancy in the numbers of ethnic Germans who declared German as their mother tongue in prewar Warsaw, and the number of Evangelical Christians who were (most frequently) also of Germanic blood. The Warsaw residents of German background would not want to make themselves too noticeable in the years leading to World War II. However, their true numbers in the capital became known soon after the invasion. Poeticbent talk 06:28, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your point, but it's close to OR.Xx236 (talk) 07:21, 21 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
p. 201 table doesn't support your thesis, it's about 1921 however.Xx236 (talk) 07:25, 21 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please stop doing this. I did not quote the table from page 201 anywhere here. Of course I see that the table is from 1921, that's why I didn't bother with it. The data which I utilized in mainspace was for 1931 and thereafter, presented in the table on page 195 (197 in PDF). Thanks, Poeticbent talk 15:11, 21 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Powązki was the biggest so it had 179 Germans (1%), percentage of Germans was higher in another parts of the city.Xx236 (talk) 07:09, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure what you want me to do. Would you prefer if Powązki was removed from the mention of the ethnically German inhabitants of Warsaw? The actual census numbers don't matter all that much. What matters is that in the district of Śródmieście Południe (notably, one of the most prestigious neighbourhoods) there was an Evangelical congregation at Puławska Street also. Poeticbent talk 15:47, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm almost certain that the thugs from Selbstschutz didn't live in Powązki. Poeticbent talk 16:29, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Nazi ghetto

As this ghetto was specifically established by the Nazis, shouldn't the lead say "Nazi-established ghetto" to differentiate it from more, um, traditional ghettoes? --Calton | Talk 00:32, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sea of lazy links

I've never seen so many lazy links in one place, have you? 

"Along with the advancing Wehrmacht, the Einsatzgruppe EG IV and the Einsatzkommandos rolled into town. On November 7, 1939, the Reichsführer-SS reorganized them into local security service (SD). Meanwhile, the German fifth column members of Selbstschutz (detained by the defenders of Warsaw) were released immediately. The commander of EG IV, SS-Standartenführer Josef Meisinger (the "Butcher of Warsaw"), was appointed chief of police for the newly formed Distrikt Warschau.[15] After the takeover of Warsaw, the German authorities began the registration of the ethnic Germans who were issued the Kennkarte separate from the rest of the locals.[12] By June 1940 there were 2,500 Reichsdeutsche and 5,500 Volksdeutsche registered in Warsaw."

I try to avoid (usually inefficient) thoughtful links, NEVER follow a lazy link, for obvious reasons. Links are intended to supplement, not replace actual thoughtful, real writing. How disrespectful. Cheers!
--2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:3044:A2C3:2683:987B (talk) 01:33, 8 November 2018 (UTC)Doug Bashford[reply]

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