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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Königubu (talk | contribs) at 18:40, 3 November 2019 (→Autobio concerns). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Autobio concerns

Looking at the history of the article, it appears that much of the info was added without any source. Mainly, multiple photos have all been uploaded to commons by Königubu, spanning several years, and this editor has also added unsourced personal information, such as birth data and birth place. The article also emphasized WP:PEACOCK phrases like "award winning", and this lead has been copied or closely paraphrased by Hopkins on his own bios on his websites etc. This suggests a close familiarity with the subject, which is at best a conflict of interest. It also suggests an attempt to use Wikipedia for promotion, which is prohibited. Grayfell (talk) 21:23, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Linking Wikipedia:Help_desk#CJ_Hopkins. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:39, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What parts of this page fail to present "a neutral point of view" or suggest "an attempt to use Wikipedia for promotion"? If none, remove warning tag. Königubu (talk) 15:04, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

IMO it's not glaring as the article looks now. Possibly the Zone 23 sentence which should have a good secondary source or be removed, and "His writings have appeared in ColdType, The Unz Review, OffGuardian, CounterPunch and other publications." which seems pretty uninteresting (and unreffed) but could also be "saved" with a good secondary source. And thank you for not removing the tag yourself, that would be improper. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:17, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging Grayfell since you added the thing. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:27, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions: (1) remove "Zone 23" sentence from "Later works" ... leave it listed under "Novels" with the ISBN (2) also remove "teaches workshops" sentence. It is not related to notability as author. (3) revise "writing has appeared" sentence to read "His political satire and commentary has appeared in ..." and use CounterPunch archive (https://www.counterpunch.org/author/cjhop0098/) and Unz archive (https://www.unz.com/author/c-j-hopkins/) as refs. Königubu (talk) 16:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also, if you are going for bone dry, remove recently added sentence in lead, "Among his works are ..." Königubu (talk) 16:16, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I added that sentence, I think it's ok per WP:LEAD. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:58, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the autobio tag I added, and have removed the novel and workshop lines, as these both seem like good suggestions. I have rephrased the book's entry in the bibliography to indicate the book is self-published. I am not doing to to be petty, I really do think this is significant and useful for readers who are researching this author, based on past experience. The imprint name Snoggsworthy, Swaine & Cormorant is the author's own, and it has apparently only been used for this book. Readers looking for this book, or looking for context about this book, are more likely to be confused by this detail than informed. Grayfell (talk) 20:22, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is petty, and it reads as such. Your animosity towards Hopkins is made clear on the Identity Politics page. Unless you propose to add this note to every author who has ever published their own work, and band that has its own record label, and organization that publishes under its own imprint (and there are many), then it reads as an attempted insult, and makes Wikipedia look unprofessional, and biased. Königubu (talk) 20:36, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We are pretty biased against selfpublished stuff, see WP:SELFPUBLISH, it's not a Hopkins thing. When his book has coverage like The Joy of Cooking or Fifty Shades of Grey we'll happily have an article about it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:12, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. This book is not supported by any reliable sources. Whether or not to include self-published books in bibliographies is often disputed, because they are not obviously noteworthy. As for this edit summary, Marcel Proust, Mark Twain and William Blake are no-longer self-published. Further, their works are discussed by countless reliable, independent sources. If you know of such sources for Hopkins, let's see them.
Further, if you know of any articles about self-published creators which lack sources, please let me know so I can have a look at them. Grayfell (talk) 21:26, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, do you have any source on year of birth or full name? Selfpublished may be good enough here, per WP:BLPSELFPUB. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:30, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course, Grayfell, there are many examples on Wikipedia of authors publishing under their own imprints. For example, Jeffrey St. Clair, who runs CounterPunch, which also publishes his books, which you do not tag as "self-published." Here's the list on his Wikipedia page:

collapsed for space
   Whiteout: The CIA, Drugs and the Press (1998) (with Alexander Cockburn) ISBN 978-1-85984-258-4
   A Field Guide to Environmental Bad Guys (1999) (with James Ridgeway) ISBN 978-1-56025-153-8
   Five Days That Shook The World: The Battle for Seattle and Beyond (2000) (with Alexander Cockburn) ISBN 978-1-85984-779-4
   Al Gore: A User's Manual (2000) (with Alexander Cockburn) ISBN 978-1-85984-803-6
   The Politics of Anti-Semitism (2003) (co-editor with Alexander Cockburn)
   Been Brown So Long, It Looked Like Green to Me: The Politics of Nature (2003) ISBN 978-1-56751-258-8
   Serpents in the Garden: Liaisons with Culture and Sex (2004) (co-editor with Alexander Cockburn) ISBN 978-1-902593-94-4
   Grand Theft Pentagon :Tales of Corruption and Profiteering in the War on Terror (2005) ISBN 978-1-56751-336-3
   Born Under a Bad Sky: Notes from the Dark Side of the Earth (2007) ISBN 978-1-904859-70-3
   Red State Rebels: Tales of Grassroots Resistance in the Heartland (2008) (Co-editor with Joshua Frank) ISBN 978-1-56025-153-8
   Hopeless: Barack Obama and the Politics of Illusion (2013) (Co-editor with Joshua Frank) ISBN 978-1849351102
   Killing Travons: An Anthology of American Violence (2014) (Co-editor with Kevin Alexander Gray and JoAnn Wypijewski) ISBN 978-0-69221-399-5
   Bernie and the Sandernistas: Field Notes From a Failed Revolution (2016) CreateSpace, ISBN 1-539-032-728

St. Clair's uses the "CounterPunch" imprint as Hopkins uses the "Snoggsworthy" imprint (as the Penguin Group uses the "Viking" imprint). Both St. Clair and Hopkins are established authors, whose works have been published by other publishers (as was Alexander Cockburn, whose books published under the "CounterPunch" imprint you also do not tag as self published). And rightfully so. An imprint is a trade name. Quoting from Wikipedia's "Imprint (trade name)" page ...

″A single publishing company may have multiple imprints, with the different imprints often used by the publisher to market works to different demographic consumer segments. For example, the objective of Viking—an imprint of the Penguin Group—is "[t]o publish a strictly limited list of good nonfiction, such as biography, history and works on contemporary affairs, and distinguished fiction with some claim to permanent importance rather than ephemeral popular interest.″

St. Clair, Cockburn, and Hopkins are all established authors, whose works have been published by other publishers, and who are entitled to use their own imprints without them being labelled "self-published," just as the Penguin Group is.

Again, it is clear to anyone who reads this talk page, and reads the Identity Politics talk page, that you, Grayfell, are too biased to be editing this page. That said, it's your platform. If Hopkins' novel is "not noteworthy" according to official Wikipedia policy, you and Gråbergs Gråa Sång should remove all references to it from the page, rather than playing games.Königubu (talk) 23:09, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Just because certain Wikipedia pages are written one way, it doesn't mean another gets to ignore policy. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 23:19, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should read what I wrote and address the points it makes, or admit that there is no "policy", other than whatever an editor feels like doing. Kind regards, Königubu (talk) 23:24, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, if you're honestly just looking for a citation that isn't a reader review or a book blogger, there is a review here ... http://www.unz.com/kbarrett/civil-war-ii-coming/ and there should be one in Naked Capitalism relatively soon. Königubu (talk) 00:14, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The example Königubu provides is Jeffrey St. Clair, which is already tagged for source issues, and has been for over ten years. I have worked on the publisher info for that article to indicate publishers. For reference, Unz Review lacks a positive reputation for editorial oversight or fact-checking, so it is not a reliable, independent source. Sources like this are poor for establishing the significance of specific details. In this case, I don't think this really needs anything beyond a primary source (such as the ISBN number), since it is not an extraordinary claim that the book exists and was written by Hopkins. Grayfell (talk) 05:19, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Per [1] and Ron_Unz#The_Unz_Review_and_other_activities, I don't think citing Unz is a good idea. Got any Publishers Weekly? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:49, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Title and ISBN alone would be fine. The issue is the "self-published" parenthetical you added. The question is simple. Either Hopkins' novel is "notable" enough to be listed under its proper imprint (like any other novel), without the condescending "self-published" parenthetical, or it is not. If it is not "notable", because it is "self-published", then it should be completely removed from the page, along with references to Hopkins as a "novelist". Please do one or the other. Königubu (talk) 07:47, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP-terminology: WP:NOTABLE is about if we should have an article or not. WP:DUE, WP:PROPORTION etc is about should a specific thing be mentioned in the article and how much. Please also take a look at WP:INDENT. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:53, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We are not interested in arguing over your terms. We just want to resolve this. The above argument stands. Either the novel is worthy of being listed under its legal imprint, without the condescending parenthetical, or it should be removed entirely. Please address this, make a decision, and do one or the other, so that we can move on. Königubu (talk) 08:02, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Who are "we"? Hoping for things to be "resolved" on WP may not pan out, it's a very changing place. IMO, the current inclusion of the book is ok. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:08, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please address the question. Why is the condescending parenthetical "ok" in your opinion? I have presented a clear explanation of why it is not, which you have not addressed. "We" are obviously "connected to the subject" (which is why we stopped editing the page, once we learned that was not allowed). Again, we are not interested in arguing. We simply expect Wikipedia to represent Hopkins and his work in a neutral, unbiased way. Königubu (talk) 08:22, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- Königubu - the reason why they asked who are "we", is because Wikipedia accounts are to be run and actioned by one person. A group of people running an account is against our policies. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:23, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't consider "self published" condescending, I think it's relevant info for a WP-reader. If consensus is for removing it, that's ok too, WP will survive either outcome. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:35, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please consider the fact that, to people in the publishing trade, it is very condescending. It suggests that the author is an amateur or hobbyist. Hopkins is clearly not. When an established author chooses to publish a book under his own imprint, he is entitled to have that book listed under that imprint. This is why every bookseller, library, distributor, and professional catalog (e.g. Worldcat) lists Zone 23 under its imprint. If Wikipedia chooses to be the one exception, you have the power to do that, but your motives will be clear. That would be a shame, because you have improved the rest of the page significantly. Königubu (talk) 08:54, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that POV, if I was an author I would probably share it. Mine is that CJ Hopkins, who I learned existed yesterday day before yesterday, is an afaaict WP:NOTABLE person with several lauded plays under his belt. He also selfpublished a novel a couple of years ago. This fact, while (a little) interesting, does not by its inclusion make this article insinuate that CJ Hopkins is amateur or hobbyist. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:32, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Btw, thanks for grasping the idea of indenting so quickliy. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:33, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your POV as well. My argument is that your personal POV contradicts standard professional publishing industry practice, which recognizes and represents private imprints no differently than corporate imprints, and lists and catalogs books accordingly. Surely you are not arguing that your POV overrides the POV and standard practices of the global professional publishing industry? Königubu (talk) 11:24, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My POV no, I'm one editor. WP:CONSENSUS (whatever that turns out to be) in the context of a WP-article, yes. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:21, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's not Wikipedia's place to cast aspersions, but instead to state verifiable facts. It's not our problem that this person chose to publish using a method that has a poor reputation. When one makes a choice, one surely has done due diligence and is definitely not immune to the consequence and image it might create in others' minds. It's not our place to hide facts, with a seeming goal of polishing the image of the author despite this choice. Does it does possibly speak to the reputation of this person in the eyes of publishers or others? Maybe...that sort of expert-opinion (or indirect evidence of it) is definitely of encyclopediac value. If the book becomes a success, that obviously would override any concerns about how it was published at that point. But we haven't reached that point. However, I also agree with Gråbergs Gråa Sång that one self-published item among multiple notable items does not seem like a black mark on this person overall. Everyone I know who has a doctorate wrote a thesis that was published by their own school and nobody thinks ill of them for that. And it's standard fare in some fields of study to include a statement that "this work is being published as part of a requirement for a degree" in journals...it's honest, and it does leave the door open for readers to think how they wish of its quality. DMacks (talk) 09:39, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You are indeed casting aspersions and exhibiting your bias. An established author publishing under his own imprint does not have a "bad reputation". Being an amateur or a hobbyist does. Nor is publishing under one's own imprint "hiding facts." See Hopkins' Consent Factory (https://consentfactory.org/consent-factory-publishing/). Nothing is hidden. Rationalize and deflect all you want, but Wikipedia will now be the only source that deems it necessary to add a condescending "self-published" tag to a book that is listed everywhere in the publishing industry under its legal imprint, which is standard professional practice. Given that fact, it is obvious the only reason you insist on doing this is bias and hostility toward the subject. Do what you want, it's your platform, but if you honestly want to be neutral, I suggest that you have an objective WP editor who understands the publishing industry (and the difference between an established author and doctoral candidate) review this talk and the page for bias. Königubu (talk) 11:15, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Have to admit, it's impressive watching you guys go after a subject's page. Now you've erased the Australia and Netherlands touring of Horse Country. Here are your Australia citations. (1) the award ... http://fringevault.com.au/mini_sites/awards/2004 (2) a review ... http://theatreguide.tripod.com/htm_events/reviews_fringe_2004.htm ... (3) the local touring org ... https://www.artsprojects.com.au/tours/clancy-productions-horse-country. The Netherlands date was The Noorderzon Festival. Please do keep attempting to misrepresent this subject and his work. It makes you look extremely neutral and non-biased. Königubu (talk) 13:51, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the only Netherlands citation we could find, Hopkins' play, Horse Country, but mistakenly listed under director's name. (https://8weekly.nl/special/theater-specials/dagelijks-verslag-noorderzon-festival-noorderzon-verblindt/) Königubu (talk) 14:22, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here are citations for your "His writings have appeared ..." sentence, which should read "His political satire and commentary has appeared ...", which is what it is. OpEd News (https://www.opednews.com/author/author513589.html); ZNet (https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/the-war-on-dissent/); Tlaxcala (http://www.tlaxcala-int.org/biographie.asp?ref_aut=5167&lg_pp=pt); ZeroHedge (https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-09-04/future-spectacle-or-how-west-learned-stop-worrying-and-love-reality-police?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+zerohedge%2Ffeed). Königubu (talk) 14:09, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the OffGuardian archive, though you probably deem it a "fake news" online magazine ... (https://off-guardian.org/tag/consent-factory/) Königubu (talk) 16:09, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would, not a reliable source. Doug Weller talk 16:45, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thought so. Here's one from Agora Vox, which as its WP-article explains, is a French citizen journalism outlet with over 40,000 volunteers editors ... gosh, that structure sounds familiar. (https://www.agoravox.fr/tribune-libre/article/la-fabrique-de-la-normalite-187499?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+agoravox%2FgEOF+%28AgoraVox+-+le+journal+citoyen%29) Königubu (talk) 17:16, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And here's one from Black Agenda Report, although something tells me WP editors don't find it "reliable" either (https://blackagendareport.com/war-dissent)Königubu (talk) 17:22, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Here's one in French translation from "The Voltaire Network (French: Réseau Voltaire),a Lebanon-based alternative media outlet", according to its WP article. Not reliable? (https://reseauinternational.net/le-charme-indiscret-des-gilets-jaunes/) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Königubu (talk • contribs) 17:29, 3 November 2019 (UTC) Königubu (talk) 18:40, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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