Talk:Somalia

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 August 2018 and 22 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): DayNV (article contribs). This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2018 and 22 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Alexisbrady (article contribs).

Horodotus on Somalia

It's a bit discouraging reading an article about Somalia's history where they quote Herodotus as history without offering any caveat. This guy believed in giant gold making spiders in India, and his measurements for everything were super exaggerated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:445:200:571B:9C85:8093:75C7:DC36 (talk) 19:21, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Map #2

The map used shows Somaliland as a claimed but not controlled region, this is inline with Wikipedia maps of areas with similar disputes e.g. India, Morocco, China and Pakistan...etc etc. There is no need to edit war over every thing. The map shows both claims in full, Somalia's claimed territory as well as Somaliland's claimed territory. Besides, we already have previous consensus on use of this map on this talk page Talk:Somalia/Archive_7#Map where majority of editors agreed map was appropriate and helpful to WP readership, (EELagoon who opposed was another blocked sock of disruptive editor Middayexpress), as such, Wadaad, if you have objections, or want to form consensus around a different map please use the talk page instead of resorting to edit warring. Lastly, the same distinction between Somaliland and Somalia is made in Wikipedia's default Geolocate feature. Kzl55 (talk) 19:08, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

@Kzl55: The proposed map (created by you) contains blatantly false information as it includes areas not under the control of Somaliland as being part of Somaliland's control. See the various maps on the article Somali Civil War. Secondly, there are many areas not under the direct control of the Somalia government within South Somalia (areas under Al-Shabaab) and this map only shows it from the perspective of Somaliland and not the reality on the ground. Since it contains false information I will remove it unless it is resolved reflecting the truth.Wadaad (talk) 19:21, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Your opinion of the map aside, the map in question was previously discussed on this talk page Talk:Somalia/Archive_7#Map, and a majority of editors agreed it is appropriate and helpful to WP readership. Bulldozing your own opinion against consensus in the form of edit warring is not helpful. Please perform a self-revert to the map version agreed upon by editors in the talk page until a new consensus is formed. Kzl55 (talk) 19:27, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

The map was created by YOU. It contains false information and therefore is not encyclopedic. It is not my opinion but the reality. Wadaad (talk) 19:31, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

other editors discussed it on this talk page and agreed it was appropriate and helpful to Wikipedia readership. It is not up to yourself to push your POV on everyone. Please perform a self-revert to restore the version agreed upon by editors on this talk page. Wikipedia is based on consensus, not your personal opinions. If after a new discussion editors decide on a new map then we can change it, but until then the current version agreed upon should not be changed. Kzl55 (talk) 19:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

It was barely discussed and such and important change to a national wiki page deserves further discussion. Moreover, wikipedia has a strong bias towards white males who are not knowledgeable on topics related to Somalia. One other Somali who commented on the matter was against your proposal. Lastly, the map you created contains false information and therefore is liable to be removed until it reflects the truth. Wadaad (talk) 19:39, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Aside from your prejudices, Wikipedia is based on consensus, "white male" or not, everyone is welcome to contribute. You do not decide if the discussion was "not enough", you too are welcome to contribute to forming consensus but you can not be pushing your own POV against what a majority of editors discussed previously. Its very disruptive. For the last time, please perform a self-revert, and discuss your edits. Kzl55 (talk) 19:43, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

The only people who agreed with you were 1) an individual from Somaliland (clear bias) 2) a Taiwanese with a bias on the matter (see Foreign relations of Taiwan). You have no consensus at all, the map was created by you (trying to push a specific narrative) and contains false information and therefore liable to be removed. Wadaad (talk) 19:46, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

It is not up to you to vet the editors' backgrounds. Three editors (@FOARP and Koodbuur: and myself) agreed that it was appropriate, whilst one @Pepsmiand: disagreed. I have pinged them all. The map is identical to the default Wikipedia map for the Geolocate feature as stated previously. You can not set a threshold for what is consensus and what isnt. Please restore the article to version agreed on the talk page, this is getting disruptive. Kzl55 (talk) 19:56, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

As I had stated in my previous comment in April 2018, there are other countries that have breakaway regions that have declared independence shown on their maps. There is no reason for Somaliland to not be shown on this map. Koodbuur (talk) 22:06, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

1) you (@Koodbuur: judging from your history on wikipedia appear to be from Somaliland (hardly an unbiased opinion). 2) The map should reflect the map on Somaliland for consistency (nuances around Far-East 'Somaliland') not being under the control of Somaliland. 3) Somaliland is not the only area not under control by Somalia's government. See various maps on Somali Civil War neglecting other regions to push your (pro-Somaliland) POV.Wadaad (talk) 22:19, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Please do not engage in personal attacks. I have mentioned that other countries with breakaway regions have their maps showing breakaway regions. Your points about consistency or other regions outside Somalia's control do not warrant Somaliland being erased from the map. Koodbuur (talk) 22:44, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

1) The map on wikipage Somaliland is not the same as the claimed area on your proposed map 2) Somaliland is not the only area not under control by Somalia's government. See various maps on Somali Civil War neglecting other regions to push your POV. 3) One Somalilander and a Taiwanese editor is hardly consensus on such an important issue. Wadaad (talk) 20:01, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

To state the obvious, I am neither Taiwanese nor from Somaliland, though it wouldn't matter if I was. The map was selected as the most accurate map to hand of the present state of Somalia/Somaliland, if someone wants to produce an even more accurate map then let them produce it, but in the absence of such a map we should use the most accurate one available - one showing Somaliland as not under the control of the central government of Somalia and instead as claimed, but not controlled territory, in line with the treatment of other countries with similar issues. FOARP (talk) 07:20, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

PS - I've added a note that these are only approximate zones of control. Until there is a more accurate map available, showing Somaliland's current area of control, this will have to do. FOARP (talk) 07:21, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Many thanks Koodbuur and FOARP. And yes, it absolutely would not matter if you were from Taiwan or Somaliland, or anywhere else for that matter, there is just no need for such language here. With regards to your added note FOARP, that would work, particularly given that Somalia does not control large swaths of territory currently controlled by Al Shabab. The most neutral and helpful presentation for WP readership is to show both Somalia's de jure claimed border as well as Somaliland's de facto claimed border, and there is precedent of this presentation in similar disputes across Wikipedia as discussed earlier. Regards Kzl55 (talk) 14:56, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

It DOES matter what the national backgrounds of editors are as it may show bias, imagine a group of Jewish editors deciding on the borders of Palestine or Arab issues. Taiwan is similar to Somaliland as it is in a longstanding sovereignty dispute with the People's Republic of China (PRC) - this is not a minor fact. Obviously, someone from Somaliland will likewise not provide a neutral opinion either. Wadaad (talk) 06:15, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

It matters if editors exhibit bias in their editing, Wadaad; we do not assume that editors are biased because of their ethnic background. If I may say so, you also seem quick to assume that others are biased, without reflecting on your own possible biases. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:33, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

@Cordless Larry: My bias on the matter is this: I am ancestrally from an area claimed by "Somaliland" but I do not recognize this entity. I recognize Somalia as the sovereign owner of "Somaliland", which is actually the internationally recognized norm. Wadaad (talk) 06:36, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

To re-iterate, I am not Taiwanese and I don't know why Wadaad thinks I am. I do not come from Somaliland. It wouldn't matter if I did. Wadaad seems to be trying to argue that, since everyone here belongs to ethnic groups they consider "biased", then only their view counts. This argument could easily be turned on them - what is there ethnic background? Could we not easily say "Wadaad comes from X and is a member of group Y so they must be biased"? And where does this end? The "international norm" does not matter since this is Wikipedia, not the UN - we merely report what reliable sources tell us, which is that, whilst according to the Somali point of view Somaliland is part of their territory, Somaliland is in fact a de facto independent state.

Furthermore, can I just point out the obvious contradiction in what you've been saying: up to now you've been arguing that the map should be changed because it does not accurately portray Somaliland's current zone of control. Now you are saying that it should not portray Somaliland at all. Which is it? If the map is not accurate, then the answer is a more accurate map (which you are free to create yourself based on reliable sourcing), not removing Somaliland from it entirely. Until there is a more accurate map, based on accurate sources, then we will use the most accurate map available - which is the one we have. FOARP (talk) 07:33, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

@FOARP: I got it from your profile on here mentioning Taiwan. Well, if you are not Taiwanese you may be a Western Sinophile who is pro-Taiwan one way or another explaining why you would be interested in Somaliland (a pseudo-country with similar recognition issues). I stand by that national backgrounds or political leanings of editors matter. Wadaad (talk) 07:40, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

If you stand by this, then why do you believe that it does not apply to you? Why should we not say "Wadaad is X so his opinion doesn't count", which is what you are effectively saying about everyone else here? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Anyway, Wiki policy clearly states that you should assume good faith, and your position (people with ethnic backgrounds you don't like should be ignored) is the polar opposite of that.

And again, if you think the issue here is that the map inaccurately portrays Somaliland's zone of control, then why not provide a more accurate map of Somaliland's zone of control, based on reliable sourcing, yourself? FOARP (talk) 07:50, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

I am contesting that there is a consensus for the current map. For years the previous map was listed and was only changed by Kzl55 with the approval of only two individuals. Where is the consensus? I do not consider that there is one.Wadaad (talk) 07:53, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

The consensus is in the agreement of three people that this is the correct map to use, as well as the general consensus on Wiki that this is how such matter should be dealt with. You are one person, which is less than three, and your reasons for opposing this map are not grounded in Wiki policy. Of course, if you want a discussion with more people involved, you can always try to raise this as a topic on the various forums dedicated to this kind of discussion on Wiki. For example, you could try raising this at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals). FOARP (talk) 08:00, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

@FOARP: previously he had several individuals disagree (two if IIRC) with him, add mine to it and then the majority of the previous and current discussion are not in favor of this map. Also, such an important change to a national wiki page should require the input from many more editors. Wadaad (talk) 08:16, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

No, it doesn't just stack across debates like that. The consensus comes from the debate, and isn't decided simply by counting votes but also depends on who makes the best arguments based on Wiki policy. If you want to get more people involved the best way is to raise an RFC. Wikipedia:Requests for comment has a guide on when and how to do this. FOARP (talk) 08:26, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

As FOARP stated, multiple times now, there is clear precedent in Wikipedia to present de facto states on the maps. In fact, Wikipedia's default Geolocate feature presents Somaliland and Somalia as two separate entities. Perhaps Wadaad should view their insistence on removal of Somaliland as a manifestation of their own bias. It is unacceptable to exclude anyone or vet editors based on background, whether White, Taiwanese or from Somaliland, as long as their contributions adhere to Wikipedia guidelines and policy. You can potentially end up in situations where you build your thesis on assuming someone being from a specific background, and it turns out they are not, as happened above. With regards to stacking votes from historic debates, this obviously isn't how it works on Wikipedia, but Wadaad also seems to be counting votes of long-term disruptive editors to bolster their claim, despite being aware that they were a blocked sock of disruptive editor Middayexpress.Kzl55 (talk) 09:46, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Please remove that global map due to the fact that Somaliland does not control Khatumo State of Somalia. Let's not be biased in our publishing. Khatumo State does not believe in the old colonial borders that divided Somali people, and wants to remain in the Union. Only the Isaaqs that inhabit "Somaliland" are pushing a propaganda that they govern/control regions more than they actually do. We do not want any more war. Somaliland situation is similar to Catalonia, not Taiwan or Scotland.

Somalia Map

Can you guys stop putting unnecessary information underneath the map, only thing that's needed is a clear definition between the light green and dark green. No need to put a whole history lesson in there, it looks messy. Hurbad (talk) 22:06, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Hurbad - Apologies, but as you can see above, the map is controversial and so the consensus was to add explicatory language. FOARP (talk) 13:26, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Somali National anthem

I don't think that the national anthem shown is correct. Flags200 (talk) 11:49, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Pending changes

Due to the amazing history of vandalism, I added indefinite pending changes. Please ping me if this becomes onerous.-- Deepfriedokra

References

Somalia

Its peace Zakishilabo (talk) 21:09, 11 December 2019 (UTC)