Talk:McGill University

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The lead

I reorganized the lead into : a brief description (its location) -> history -> the academic profile, with the removal of the heavily emphasized ranking part since the intro. should be a concise summary of the following sections without delivering undue weight to any particular portion, such as rankings and reputation. Biomedicinal (contact) 12:43, 26 February 2014

And Mario Bunge?

It is an Argentine prodigy who teaches at the university. [1][2][3]

On Images

There seem to be too many images on the right side of the page. Mainly, the rutherford parc image as well as the MUHC image seem to be out of place. Moreover, they push the faculty table into the middle of the page and it just looks messy. Could an administrator consider removing those two images? Recursion changed the game (talk) 23:06, 8 December 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Recursion changed the game (talk • contribs) 21:51, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Lead section's notable alumni

Before my edit to the lead section's paragraph on the notable McGill alumni, the paragraph was very long and praising McGill very hard. It dominated the lead section with a half of the entire word count of all the lead section. However, the article doesn't spend that much time talking about its alumni. The alumni section is quite shorter. For that reason, blowing up the size of the alumni paragraph in the lead feels like an advertisement. I know McGill is renown and respected, but the lead is supposed to represent the article. There should be more content in the lead about McGill's history, academics, administration..., basically all the other sections in the article. Sociable Song (talk) 21:07, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

I have since curated the alumni paragraph in the lead, basing it off of FA status articles on universities such as Dartmouth College. The paragraph has been shortened to about half its original length. Hopefully this is an improvement. Jonahrapp (talk) 22:14, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

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Please fix the lead

The following edit in the article's Lead, by Kupal123, "Like any other university, McGill witnessed many important “firsts” during its formative years. These included the election of its first Principal in 1824, the establishment of its first academic unit and first faculty in 1829, the conferment of its first academic degree and Canada's first ever medical degree in 1833, affiliation with its first teaching hospital in 1834, the construction of its first ever permanent building in 1843, and the establishment of its first and oldest existing endowed chair in 1846, among others" is disruptive, incorrectly cited, and does not follow the guidelines of a Lead section. I have discussed this with the user on our respective talk pages but he continues to insist it must be a part of the Lead. Respected user, Magnolia677 agreed that his edits have been unconstructive and disruptive, and stated that it would be removed, yet the user continues to re-add it and revert my own corrections.

I propose we revert the Lead to its previous status, with the first paragraph as follows:

McGill University is a public research university in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. Founded in 1821 by royal charter, granted by King George IV, the university bears the name of James McGill whose bequest in 1813 formed the university's precursor, McGill College. Twelve years after it was officially established, McGill awarded its first academic degree and Canada's first ever medical degree. The college adopted its present name in 1885.

Jonahrapp (talk) 04:36, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

The reason I am not reverting his edit is that I have already done so twice, and do not want to violate the three-revert rule. I can't believe it has been active on this GA article for over 2 hours and no one has reverted it or even attempted to improve the errors in spacing, citing and word choice yet. Disappointing on Wikipedia users/administrators' part and embarrassing for McGill University. Jonahrapp (talk) 04:52, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Lead not the place to list things like first and people.--Moxy 🍁 13:08, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

I support Jonahrapp's proposal; it is more encyclopedic and better complies with Lead section. Magnolia677 (talk) 13:26, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

I am fine with the shortened Lead, if it does not not include anything about any "first" in the history of the university. It should just read the way it was until early this year before "McGill awarded its first degree" was added by Jonahrapp:

"McGill University is a public research university in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. Founded in 1821 by royal charter, granted by King George IV, the university bears the name of James McGill whose bequest in 1813 formed the university's precursor, McGill College."

So we should remove the first degree awarded by the university if we are not going to add other "firsts" besides the first degree awarded by the university. Otherwise, there is no justification for differentiating the first degree from the first school and first faculty of McGill university. In fact, even way more prestigious universities than McGill like UCLA, Michigan, Cornell, etc. do not have in their Lead anything about their first degree awarded or any first in their histories. And we will just end up putting in our personal, subjective opinion there to keep that sentence about the first McGill degree awarded, while leaving out other equally important firsts, like its first school established, etc.Kupal123 (talk) 17:40, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, please keep it plain and simple, consistent with other WP university articles which should serve as benchmarks in this matter. The first academic degree and any other milestones ("firsts") do not belong in the Lead. Move them and show them in the history section and other sections below the Lead, which is how any other WP university/college article does it. Where there is WP debate or edit war, we should adopt the convention set forth in other similar/equivalent articles (in this case, about colleges and universities). That is how consensus is gained in WP and edit wars/debates are resolved in WP.Tansyderby (talk) 18:16, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

I just saw now that editor Moxy has fixed the opening paragraph of the Lead and removed any "firsts" in McGill history from that paragraph. I perfectly agree and wish to thank Moxy. I have no more edits or comments to make at this point. Kupal123 (talk) 18:31, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

There is already established consensus here that any "firsts", "oldest", and similar qualifiers should not be in the Lead. Please refrain from further editing the first paragraph of the Lead.Tansyderby (talk) 20:31, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

"Firsts" as has been the topic of discussion above, refers to all that is post-establishment of the university, i.e. first degree awarded, first chancellor, first academic unit, first building etc. By your logic, "no first of any kind" (see below), we should not include the year the university was first established (1821), or the year its name was changed, or anything that marks its history (always a "first"). I have requested that this page be extended confirmed protected. Jonahrapp (talk) 21:16, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

After clear consensus was established a few hours earlier, I see that Jonahrapp is back at his old game, sounding more and more like the propaganda machine of McGill University. No such thing as first established. The university was established in 1821, period. You need to stop beating around the bush with your twisted logic, since there is already consensus on the Lead opening sentence per discussions above. If you start all over again, and assert that "first in Montreal" is just fine, then others will pitch in and also add that McGill University "was the first or oldest university to be located on Mount Royal," the "first or oldest English-speaking university in Montreal," and endless other trivialities. The consensus for excluding any "first" or oldest, etc. is precisely to follow WP university articles and to remove any reference to milestones. As pointed above, editor User:Moxy even made it clear when he said "Lead not the place to list things like first and people", regardless of whether it pertains to the university, the city in which it is located, the mountain in which it is found, the language which serves as its medium of instruction, etc. That is the point there. Put all your "firsts" in other sections of the article, but not in the Lead, which is a summary section. Abide by the consensus already reached right here Kupal123 (talk) 21:42, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

I am not a propaganda machine for the university. I am simply a Wikipedian trying to improve the quality of articles on Wikipedia, especially GA status articles, unlike you, who from your edit history appears to be making only disruptive and unencyclopedic edits. Moxy also suggested that the Lead "Should follow the examples set forth by the most viewed FA class articles of the same topic.....University of Michigan..Dartmouth College," the latter of which states explicitly in the Lead that it is the ninth-oldest institution in the U.S. Please explain how "the oldest in Montreal" a city with nearly 30 universities and colleges, is a triviality and can be compared to "the oldest university to be located on Mount Royal, a small part of the city with only one other university." Please explain how being the oldest English-language institution of higher learning in the Province of Quebec and one of the oldest in Canada (which has nearly 100 universities) is a triviality, or how this would be considered a "milestone" in its history post-establishment. Throughout this process not once have you made an edit that is constructive or positively contributing to Wikipedia, so quit bashing and take your sass somewhere else. Jonahrapp (talk) 21:58, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Also, just because Moxy wrote one sentence that supports your argument, doesn't mean a consensus was reached. You must have forgotten that the next entry in the discussion immediately after Moxy's was the following, by another respected Wikipedia editor, Magnolia677, stating "I support Jonahrapp's proposal; it is more encyclopedic and better complies with Lead section." As I said, I have requested extended confirmed status for this article to stop the edit warring, as a consensus has clearly not been reached.Jonahrapp (talk) 22:04, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

You simply do not get it, Jonahrapp. Consensus has been clearly established to keep out any "firsts" because they do not belong to the Lead. It is not just Moxy, and other editors here, but the WP convention on university articles. You cite one exception, the WP Dartmouth article (you can include other Ivy League university articles if you want) because it says "it is the ninth-oldest institution in the U.S.". But you neglect to say that "ninth-oldest institution in the U.S." (unlike your oldest in Montreal) has historical significance which is why it is underscored and has an entire WP article under that label. Being one of the nine colonial colleges is entirely different from being the oldest in Montreal or being the oldest located in Montreal's mountain or being the oldest English-speaking Montreal university. I would not compare McGill to any Ivy League university, which is non-pareil. And like I said, if you put in "oldest in Montreal", then that Lead will endlessly expand, with other editors also adding in that McGill was "the first to be located on Mount Royal" and "the first English-speaking university in Montreal", etc., etc., etc. No end there will be. And your only defense is your own subjective calculation that being the oldest in the city is more important than being the oldest located in a mountain or the oldest in terms of language of instruction, blah, blah, blah. Your distinction is your own alone. We do not buy it. And you are not entirely honest when you say that Montreal is "a city with nearly 30 universities and colleges" because you know that there are really only 4 universities in Montreal, and the rest of the 26 that you count in are nothing but two-year junior colleges (called CEGEPs). Just be honest. And throughout the process, you have done nothing constructive but keep editing where consensus has been achieved. I do not also believe that you are not a propagandist for McGill University, since ALL YOU HAVE DONE FOR ALMOST AN ENTIRE DAY NOW IS JUST EDIT THIS ONE ARTICLE ON McGILL UNIVERSITY, WITH OVER 80 EDITS THUS FAR TODAY, AS YOUR CONTRIBUTION PAGE CLEARLY SHOWS, and the day is not even over yet. No more edits or reverts on the first paragraph of the Lead. It is over now.Kupal123 (talk) 23:42, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

First of all, I did not make 80 edits to this page today, but rather 24, 14 of which were minor edits to punctuation. You are inflating your facts in an attempt to make a mockery of me, but you don't seem to realize that people can see my edit history. Of the 10 real edits I did make on the page today, only one was in regards to "firsts" in the introductory paragraph of the lead, while the others were very constructive edits regarding the issue raised below (see Talk:McGill University#Notable alumni in the Lead.). I cited Dartmouth not because I was comparing the two universities but because its article has FA status, which is the highest quality status a Wikipedia article can achieve. Saying "I would not compare McGill to any Ivy League university" shows just how little research you conduct before typing, given that in reality McGill outranks multiple Ivy Leagues (particularly Dartmouth, Brown..) in overall rankings, research output, alumni, hirability etc. — if you actually read any of the articles you edit you'd know that (oh wait, you don't even edit any articles on here). Anyone who reads your responses sees how ridiculous you sound, with your unsubstantiated claims, "blah blah blahs" and your all-caps anger management issues coming to light. Unlike your false claims about my edit history, I actually looked at yours and found that of the 47 edits you've made in the last 2 years, 20 were made today alone, all on either the talk page for McGill or my own talk page--never constructive, always hostile, negative, angry and disruptive, as Magnolia677 put it here. I would usually never suggest to someone to stop trying to improve Wikipedia, but I think you should pick a different hobby. Jonahrapp (talk) 01:10, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I really do not of any person here in America who has heard of McGill compared to Dartmouth (except perhaps the Ivy rejects who went to McGill). Dartmouth is Ivy League calibre, McGill is not and well below Toronto and UBC in any ranking done outside of Canada. I make no false claims. Take a snapshot of your edits just today, one day, March 14, 2020: over 80 and all about McGill, whether on the McGill article and talk page, or on my talk page. No one can beat you on that. Unbelievably incredible. Get a life. Go ahead take a snapshot of your McGill-related edits and paste them here. You will see that you are lying again -- just like you were lying when you said McGill has over 30 universities. And if you add your McGill edits from two years hence, you will have way more than 80 and way more than triple my edits.Kupal123 (talk) 01:29, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry but "knowing people" doesn't mean anything when actual facts exist (see WP:WEASEL). I see now that this has truly become personal and your disrespect for and personal bias against the institution whose article you are supposedly trying to protect here has become apparent, further suggesting that this is not a place for you. I didn't say "McGill had 30 universities", I said quote, "'Montreal,' a city with nearly 30 universities and colleges." You are clearly very tired. This whole discussion has turned into personal attacks rather than constructive comments to improve the article for McGill University, and therefore belongs on one of our talk pages, not here.Jonahrapp (talk) 01:43, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I am not going to engage you anymore in needless debate. I have a life. It is very obvious that when you say "Montreal has 30 universities and colleges," you are justifying and implying that it is worth writing in the Lead that McGill was the "first" out of 30 university-level schools in Montreal to make that "first" look significant or more important than "the first university located in Mount Royal" or "the first English-speaking Montreal university," or other firsts. In reality, there are really only 3 other universities in Montreal and adding in the 26 junior/post-high school colleges (CEGEPs) is mixing apples and oranges. Yes, I am clearly very tired of this whole McGill article being turned as a marketing tool for McGill. Your over 80 edits in just one day (of that article, its talk page, etc.) are way more than double all my edits in 2 years. Anyway, the point is you cannot put in your first degree thing anymore, and no more editing of the Lead first paragraph is allowed. Thanks.Kupal123 (talk) 07:18, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Actually, it was not Jonahrapp, but me, who added the info that "McGill is the oldest university in Montreal," and "McGill awarded its first academic degree and Canada's first ever medical degree." on the lead section. I was not aware of the "alleged consensus" that "any type of first is not allowed to be mentioned" in the lead (according to User:Kupal123 and Tansyderby). I personally agree with Jonah. Kupal, how can you prove that "Being one of the nine colonial colleges [referring to Dartmouth] is entirely different from being the oldest in Montreal", considering the fact that Montreal is a city with nearly 30 universities and colleges according to Jonah? Your logic does not make any sense. Likewise, go to wiki pages on Cambridge University and Oxford University. The Cambridge University page clearly states that Cambridge is the second-oldest university in the English-speaking world. And your personal bias against McGill makes it clear that your logic has many intrinsic flaws. You stated, "I really do not of any person here in America who has heard of McGill compared to Dartmouth (except perhaps the Ivy rejects who went to McGill). Dartmouth is Ivy League calibre, McGill is not and well below Toronto and UBC in any ranking done outside of Canada." Wrong! Your logic is not backed up by any reliable sources. For instance, McGill always ranked higher than UBC in the QS world university rankings. The only reason that you want to omit the aforementioned info (McGill awarded its first Medical degree in Canada) is because your own "firsts" were not included. You are just dumb. dumb. dumb. Period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.88.165.241 (talk) 16:42, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Actually, it was very clearly Jonahrapp who added the info that "McGill is the oldest university in Montreal," and "McGill awarded its first academic degree and Canada's first ever medical degree." A simple review of the article's Edit History will show that he not only put them in. He even stated why he added them. See Edit History: "20:20, 14 March 2020‎ Jonahrapp talk contribs‎ 147,675 bytes +121‎ Modeled the lead after most viewed FA class articles on universities, such as Dartmouth College. Added that the university is the oldest in Montreal, and shortened/cleaned up the paragraph on alumni." I will not anymore engage in any discussion because the Lead opening paragraph is already set in the sense that no more "firsts", "oldest" or any qualifying university milestone is allowed. The consensus has been reached and it is all over now. God bless.Kupal123 (talk) 21:45, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

ACTUALLY, I was simply re-adding the information that was previously in the lead before all of this hub-bub, and simply gave my reasoning for why I believed it did belong in the Lead after someone removed it. If you look further back at the edit history, I believe from a few weeks ago, you will see that the user above is correct and you are mistaken. Thank you to the user above for your support in this issue and for supporting quality in Wikipedia articles.Jonahrapp (talk) 22:03, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Notable alumni in the Lead.

I noticed that Moxy removed the paragraph in the lead about the university's alumni. While I agree that the list was quite extensive and a bit too long for the Lead, I believe that it is important to include certain information about the university's alumni there, such as number of Rhode's Scholars, Nobel Prize winners, Prime Ministers etc. (see Harvard University, University of Cambridge etc.). I will spend the next half hour or so attempting to clean up the paragraph on alumni that was previously in the Lead. Thank you. Jonahrapp (talk) 17:54, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree with you on this point. Restore the alumni paragraph. That is the convention followed in other WP university/college articles.Tansyderby (talk) 18:18, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

As of right now, I have edited the paragraph to appear as follows:

McGill counts among its alumni 12 Nobel laureates and 145 Rhodes Scholars, both the most of any university in Canada, as well as the current prime minister and two former prime ministers of Canada, at least eight foreign leaders, 28 foreign ambassadors and more than 100 members of Canadian Parliament, United States Congress, British Parliament, and other national legislatures. In the arts, McGill alumni include nine Academy Award winners, 11 Grammy Award winners, at least 16 Emmy Award winners, and four Pulitzer Prize winners. In sports, 121 Olympians of varying nationalities who have won over 35 Olympic medals have graduated from McGill, as well as the inventor of the game of basketball, the inventors of modern organized ice hockey, and the pioneers of American football.

whereas previously it was the following:

McGill counts among its alumni 12 Nobel laureates and 145 Rhodes Scholars, both the most of any university in Canada, as well as five astronauts, the current prime minister and two former prime ministers of Canada, the current Governor General of Canada, 15 justices of the Canadian Supreme Court, at least eight foreign leaders, 28 foreign ambassadors, over eight dozen members of the Canadian Parliament, United States Congress, British Parliament, and other national legislatures, at least 10 billionaires, nine Academy Award winners, 11 Grammy Award winners, four Pulitzer Prize winners, two Presidential Medal of Freedom recipients, at least 16 Emmy Award winners, and 121 Olympians of varying nationalities who have won over 35 Olympic medals. McGill alumni invented the game of basketball, the modern version of organized ice hockey, and played an important role in the development of the modern game of American football. McGill University or its alumni also founded several major universities and colleges, including the University of British Columbia, the University of Victoria, the University of Alberta, the Schulich School of Medicine & Dentistry at the University of Western Ontario, the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, and Dawson College.

All of the information in the previous paragraph is included in the notable people section of the article. Hopefully this was a good workaround. Jonahrapp (talk) 18:25, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi, Jonahrapp. Good job with the alumni paragraph restoration/improvement. But please restore 3 phrases, which other WP articles like Harvard, Yale, Princeton contain and so that they follow the convention adopted there:

1. "at least 10 billionaires"

2. the universities that McGill alumni founded

3. "and the current Governor General of Canada" (i.e., if we include the prime ministers, all the more include the GG, in the same way that alumni from the current royal families of some European universities are noted in the Lead).

Thank youTansyderby (talk) 18:45, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

I have done so, but I fear it is too similar now to how it was before and a little too comprehensive. I will leave it to others, if there are any complaints.Jonahrapp (talk) 18:55, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Jonahrapp. Just one very minor edit for you to kindly add: 100 members of the Canadian Parliament. THE is currently missing. Comprehensive is fine, since it still strictly follows convention in other WP university articles. Thanks.Tansyderby (talk) 19:00, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

I believe "members of Canadian Parliament" is fine, as the term "MP" refers to "Members of Parliament" rather than "Members of the Parliament". Jonahrapp (talk) 19:03, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

I looked it up. "Members of Parliament" or "Members of Congress" is fine, but when qualified with the nation of origin, it becomes "the Canadian Parliament" or "the U.S.Congress". Anyway, I put in the "the" already. Thanks for all your work, especially on the alumni part.Tansyderby (talk) 20:21, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

I have since changed the sentence altogether, and condensed "100 members of Canadian Parliament, United States Congress, and British Parliament and other national legislatures" into simply, "100 members of national legislatures," so this should no longer be an issue. Thanks. Jonahrapp (talk) 20:48, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

• Should follow the examples set forth by the most viewed FA class articles of the same topic.....University of Michigan..Dartmouth College.--Moxy 🍁 19:11, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Moxy, I will look into it and try to format it so that resembles that of Dartmouth College, as I prefer this format over the one used for UMich. 144.82.9.34 (talk) 19:42, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

There is already established consensus here/above that any "firsts", "oldest", and similar qualifiers should not be in the Lead. Please refrain from further editing the first paragraph of the Lead.Tansyderby (talk) 20:30, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

You misinterpret the type of "firsts". The discussion in the lead is regarding "firsts" in the university's development (i.e. year of first degree awarded, year of first chancellor etc.) and does not include the university being the *first* to be established in Montreal and one of the first in Canada. Do not remove my edit until a third person reviews this discussion. See FA (Featured Article), Dartmouth College.Jonahrapp (talk) 20:35, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

No first of any kind allowed. That is the convention established even in other WP university articles. Editor User:Moxy even made it clear when he said "Lead not the place to list things like first and people." You need to stop tampering with the Lead and reinterpreting consensus. Do not change anything unless there is another consensus different from what is clearly established already.Tansyderby (talk) 21:06, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

"Firsts" as has been the topic of discussion above, refers to all that is post-establishment of the university, i.e. first degree awarded, first chancellor, first academic unit, first building etc. By your logic, "no first of any kind", we should not include the year the university was first established (1821), or the year it's name was changed, or anything that marks its history (always a "first"). I have requested that this page be extended confirmed protected. Jonahrapp (talk) 21:16, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

I also think Tansyderby misunderstood the meaning of "first." Go to wiki pages on Cambridge University and Oxford University. The Cambridge University page clearly states that Cambridge is the second-oldest university in the English-speaking world and the fourth in the world. There's nothing wrong to say that McGill is the oldest university in Montreal or when it awarded its first degree. Why so picky about the "first"? Is it because you care about the consensus, or is it because you just want to impose your thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.88.165.241 (talk) 17:00, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I completely agree. I suppose it is up to an administrator or another higher-up to decide how to proceed. Personally, I feel that the intro paragraph is now lacking and should be reverted to how it was after my edit, prior to Kupal123's revert. Jonahrapp (talk) 22:07, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

• The paragraph on alumni, as it stands now after my edits, is as follows:

"

McGill counts among its alumni 12 Nobel laureates and 145 Rhodes Scholars, both the most of any university in Canada, as well as 10 billionaires, the current prime minister and two former prime ministers of Canada, the current Governor General of Canada, at least eight foreign leaders, 28 foreign ambassadors and more than 100 members of national legislatures. McGill alumni also include nine Academy Award winners, 11 Grammy Award winners, at least 16 Emmy Award winners, four Pulitzer Prize winners, and 121 Olympians with over 35 Olympic medals. The inventors of the game of basketball, modern organized ice hockey, and the pioneers of American football, as well as the founders of several major universities and colleges are also graduates of the university.

"

Jonahrapp (talk) 21:01, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

The above is better.--Moxy 🍁 15:19, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

• I made a minor edit to the paragraph. The previous version highlighted the university's role in the creation of American football. I find this to be a very odd statement for the page to make given the University's larger role in the creation of Canadian football, which is the sport actually played at McGill and which originated prior to the American version. With conciseness in mind, and given that the origins both the Canadian and American games are so closely intertwined, I have edited the paragraph to refer to gridiron football to encompass both versions. --PlasmaTwa2 08:37, 1 April 2020 (UTC)