Talk:Untermensch

=Dreadful article

Confused and repetitive and inaccurate to a gobsmacking degree. For example, the Nazis didn't consider the Slavs to be Untermenschen.

explain NPOV edit please?

SamSpade, Could you please explain what is inaccurate in the sentence " The Nazi ideology contained nothing original and the term was borrowed from older 19th century sources." I read this in a very good biography by Ian Kershaw about Hitler. On second thoughts, it may have been from the beginning of 20 centrury as well but it was certainly not original in any respect. What is inaccurate in the following sentence? "The Nazis were however the first to put this belief into practice in Europe. " The idea had already been put in to practice by the colonial powers in africa and Asia. This was one of the sources of inspiration for Hitler. Thanks in advance Andries 18:29, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Well... to say that the Nazi's ideology contained nothing new is impossibly broad, and easilly contradicted. Their focus on increasing the birth rate, even encouraging extra-martital encounters for SS men springs to mind, but generally, they interwove industrialization with social policy, something entirely new. They also revoloutionized warfare as well. "The Nazis were however the first to put this belief into practice in Europe. " is a ludicris assertation, as if to suggest that racism was something unprecedented, and Martin Luther along w so very, very, very many others had not advocated persecution Jews, or others. Anyhow I think the article could use some additions to make up for my subtractions, shall we begin writing on the article page, or do you need more clarification here on the talk? Sam Spade 19:29, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

SamSpade, you only give examples of practices of the Nazism that were new. What was new in their ideology? I do think that the racism as an ideology was practiced for the first time in Europe by the Nazis. Martin Luther objected to the Jews mainly because for religious reasons unlike the Nazis. Andries!

I don't disagree at all. As far as ideology alone, rather than something put into practice, the concepts of uber and unter mencsch were never put together in to a political form before, and I would call this something original. It would appear that we are disputing subtleties. It is possible to say that nothing is truely original, as everything has roots and gains from outside influence, but clearly the Nazi's put things together into an original package, combiining nationalism with industrialization, extreme focus on race and efficiency, a new kind of leader (Führer) not of noble birth, but given a sort of personality worship and attention to (mein kampf) never seen before. Sam Spade 19:48, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

SamSpade, what do you think of the following adapted sentences? "Like all elements of Nazi ideology the concept of Untermensch was not original and the term was borrowed from older 19th century sources. The Nazis were however the first to put racial persecution into practice in Europe." Andries 20:29, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I like them less, actually. To me it is clear that their ideology was original, and that their racial practices were not. Sam Spade 23:17, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[1]

Samspade, it is a proven fact that the elements of Nazi ideology were not original. I think you are right that the mixture was orignal. Read e.g. the biograpghy by Ian Kershaw about Hitler. I don't understand why you refer again to Marten Luther. I thought you agreed that he advocated religious persecution of Jews unlike the Nazis who advocated racial persecution. I have to see whether this is essential for the article though.Andries 19:06, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I find the concept of originality to be a philosophical one, and easilly debated from either side. I have read enough Hitler biographies, but thank you for the suggestion. Martin Luther is an example (amongst literally thousands) of Jews being persecuted prior to the Nazi's. Anti-semitism was pretty standard thruout history, and is only somewhat less so today, altho I'd say it is prob. at near record lows since well before the time of Christ. Persecution of Jews based or religion, race, ethnicity, culture, etc... is not so tellinga feature when the Jews themselves are so esoteric in regards to the where the line is drawn. Their persecuters are often just as vague about if Jews are a race, religion, etc... Sam Spade 10:27, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The article

we should be spending all this energy writing in the article page, rather than the article talk ;) Sam Spade 10:29, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Untermensch poster

AFAIK, the face on the poster is that of a mentally retarded. Similar faces are present on many posters related to T4 euthanasia. Mikkalai 17:54, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

no, not mentally retarded but Soviet POWs. I read a memoir by a Russian woman of noble heritage who had fled the Bolsjewik government and lived in Germany during WWII whose mother wanted to feed the Soviet POWs. Everybody agreed with her plans including high ranking Wehrmacht officicers, except the top of the Nazi party. Andries 18:14, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me, where do you see Soviet POWs in the poster? I see a moron's face on the background of happy, healthy, shaven armed soldiers in German uniform with distinctly aryan features. Did anyone see the description of the poster? Mikkalai 18:48, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK. I found it. Why do you guys throw things in without proper description? Mikkalai 18:56, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And what does your story have to do with the topic? Surely, even among Germans under Hitler many were normal people of varying degree of indoctrination, just as among Russians under Stalin. Mikkalai

Soviet POWs were treated very badly because the Nazi top considered them Untermenschen. Andries 19:33, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Translate from German

The article badly needs translation from Deutsch wikipedia. There is a well-known Himmler's pamphlet Der Untermensch, which will clearly stop this silly discussion about Slavs. Mikkalai 18:48, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This article is bull

There is very little evidence to support much of this. Slavs weren't considered racially "untermensch" as such, given that they weren't even considered a race per se. If you read actuall german racial theory, such as from "Glauben und kampfen", this becomes very obvious. They refer to races such as "east baltic" "meditarranean" "nordic" etc, not a imaginary meta-slavic race. Poles, like most eastern europeans were considered aryan, Warsaw apart from the ghetto was refered to "aryan" warsaw, the poles were forbiden to enter the non-aryan ghetto. Why if these poles are considered Untermensch, would the germans designate warsaw apart from the ghetto as aryan?

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/Summaries/V60I6P64-1.htm

They were very much oppressed and shat upon by the germans but it wasn't on the basis of racial fanatacism. The only real use of the word untermenshe in regard to eastern peoples is from german propaganda demonizing what they called the judeo-bolshevik asiatic hordes seeking to destroy european civilization, including the european "aryan" russian slavs. here's a couple on Q&A's from an interview with General Otto Ernst Remer.

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Q: Is it true that the Germans referred to the Russians as "subhumans"?

A: Nonsense! The Russians are human beings just like everyone else.

Your question, whether we called the Russians "subhumans," is nonsense. We had a first-class relationship with the Russian people. The only exception, which was a problem we dealt with, was with the Soviet Commissars, who were all Jews. These people stood behind the lines with machine guns, pushing the Russian soldiers into battle. And anyway, we made quick work of them. That was according to order. This was during a war for basic existence, an ideological war, when such a policy is simply taken for granted.

There was sometimes talk about the so-called Asian hordes, and ordinary soldiers sometimes spoke about subhumans, but such language was never officially used.

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Remer attributing soviet atrocities to the asiatic faction of the soviet union:

Q: Can you say something regarding Soviet atrocities against German civilians?

A: I myself saw cases involving women who had been killed, their legs spread apart and sticks thrust in, and their breasts cut off ... I saw these things myself, in Pomerania.

I spoke about this on the radio, and described it Dr. Goebbels asked me to describe this in detail, and he sent a radio team to interview me for that purpose. That was in the area around Stargard, where I saw this.

Q: What of the Soviet "Asiatic" troops?

A: It was terrible. The soldiers who did those things were at the front ...Asians, Mongols, and so forth.

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This article seems ignorant to me. A Pole who had signed the Volksliste became a Volksdeutsch (ethnic German). It can be easily provided by me. Jews and gypsies couldn't sign Volksliste, because they were considered Untermenschen. "Untermenschen" were these sentenced for a massive and planned extermination like: the disabled, gypsies, Jews or "asocial element". No (native) Poles were included. So why does someone constantly and constantly keep adding Poles (specifically) to this article? However it is true that Slavs (as well as the French) weren't seen as superior as Germanics (in culture, because when it came to race they were rather considered Aryan) - a wikipedian

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Not all Poles could sign Volksliste. ONLY those who proved that they had german ancestry and passed racial examination. Also read something about Zamość - all Poles who weren't 'aryan' enough were sent straight to Auschwitz. That includes women and children.

definition out of a 3rd Reich encyclopedia

I already posted this in the discussion about the Aryans, but I think it is useful information for this discussion, too.

Here's a definition contained in an encyclopedia produced in the Third Reich – the “Volks-Brockhaus” from 1935: it says

Aryans: … members of those races that have lived in Europe for a long time (Nordic, Falish, Dinaric, Mediterranean, Alpine, East Baltic) especially in contrast to the Semitic races. Only Aryans can hold public office and serve in the military and labor service.

I'm not sure about the translation - it originally said: nordisch, fälisch, dinarisch, westisch, ostisch, ostbaltisch in contrast to vorderasiatisch, orientalisch.

So I think "Sieger" is making some good points here. As far I as remember Otto Skorzeny was of Polish descent - and he was a member of "the elite of the elite" - namely the Leibstandarte AH in 1940 when the Nazis thought they would win the war. It does not seem very probable to admit a "untermensch" in this unit.

You see there are not only the old racial myths, but also the modern myths about old racial myths ;) --80.131.255.235 18 April 2006