Talk:Muhammad/images

Map of tribes dispute

I see a mild edit war going on regarding the map of Arabian tribes around 600 CE. It was originally removed with the reasoning "this isn't an article about Islam" — but neither is that map. In the year 600, that was during Muhammad's life, and Islam hadn't spread too much then. I think showing the tribes he interacted with adds encyclopedic value to this biography (and such a map for any biography would add value regardless of who the subject is). I don't see that it makes the article "Islamic" in the least. ~Amatulić (talk) 16:45, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I think there is a case for a map like this to set the historical scene for Arabia at the time. However, I don't think this particular map is very good (or readable). I'd prefer this one, which shows geographical relief as well as tribes. DeCausa (talk) 16:51, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Either of these maps is rather more relevant to this biography than the two maps currently there. Shouldn't this be on the main talk page though? Johnbod (talk) 16:57, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I originally removed it because it made the section look very cluttered, it didn't convey the information clearly, and as my edit summary tried to convey, it seemed more directly relevant to the history of Islam rather than Muhammad's biography. The map DeCausa linked to at least has the advantage of being more clear in presentation and I'd be happy to see it substituted for the original. It would still seem a good idea to reduce the "cluttered" look of that section somehow, either by re-sizing or rearranging images. Thanks to Amatulic for bringing this to the talkpage; sensible chap  :) Doc Tropics 17:34, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Clutter is a good point. In fact the whole article is horribly cluttered and is really spoilt by it. The timelines and other infoboxes, which I think were fairly recently added, don't add anything, IMHO, and are responsible for much of the clutter. The worst one is the Infobox on military campaigns. It's huge and really not very useful. Also, there are far too many images. In some parts of the article they are down both sides in parallel, which I thought was supposed to be a no-no. DeCausa (talk) 17:50, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Johnbod: I started this discussion here because it's about images. As for clutter, the particular section in question didn't have any images at all. I saw no clutter in adding one. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:59, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Ishan7018, 3 August 2011

Hi, would request you to remove the painting of Mohammad (saw) where it shows the reveleation of Quran from Gibrael.

Ishan7018 (talk) 00:02, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

 Question: Is there a reason or consensus to do this? Jnorton7558 (talk) 01:13, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Obviously not. 64.58.13.86 (talk) 22:13, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

I think that the ideology and beliefs of every religion should be respected. Pictures of Muhammad(PBUH) offend and insult Islamic beliefs. They are also misleading and since they are not reported to have any likeness or familiarity with the individual they are representing , I don't think they have any "Encyclopedic Value". I don't know what is trying to be proved by repeatedly refusing to remove them, but I think just accepting the request for once would end a lot of problems. . Intermediate-Hacker (talk) 15:40, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

The request was responded to and rejected. We do not cater to religious sensibilities, as that would lead to censorship. If you do not like the images in this article, you are free to not make use of this website. Tarc (talk) 06:08, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok. Point understood. But I've heard there is another solution instead of "not making use of this website", according to some discussion here , you can customize your browsers. How can this be accomplished? Thanks. Intermediate-Hacker (talk) 13:44, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

You're wrong; accepting the requests would result in uproar from the people who believe that the very extensive prior discussions have resulted in a consensus to not remove them.

I cannot complete this semi-prot edit request, because consensus should be obtained before the template is added - and clearly, there is no consensus for this edit.  Chzz  ►  06:12, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

 Not done

Edit request from Kbahmed, 8 August 2011

Please remove all the images of the prophet (PBUH) from this article. It is prohibited to make an image or painting of prophet Mohammed (PBUH). The editor must know that the paintings/images of prophet Mohammed (SAW) in Denmark and the facebook contest has offended the muslims around the world and there was a strong reaction to it from the muslim world.

Kbahmed (talk) 17:36, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

see Talk:Muhammad/images. Regards.--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫_Hey^{it's me}_{I am dynamite} 17:39, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

As noted, this will not be done. While it is true that some branches of Islam forbid the creation of images of Muhammad, Wikipedia is not governed by Islamic law. your being offended is not a valid reason for the removal of content. Resolute 17:44, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Why not make a poll and let people vote and based on the result we'll determine whether the photos should be removed or not? What do you think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kalkhiary (talk • contribs) 21:04, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a democracy.WP:NOT#DEM The strength of the argument and the corresponding consensus among editors has a higher value than numbers. --Sam 02:19, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Why is WP:FORUM not being applied here?

This is an unusual page. Very few of the comments here have anything to do with actual concrete improvement of the article Muhammad. Yet I don't see the any of the usual "Wikipedia is not a forum" notices (WP:FORUM) that you see on any other talk page to a controversial subject, or even the standard template at the top of the page. I see continual discussion regarding people's beliefs on the idea of censorship in total violation of the anti-forum policy on both sides of the debate. Can someone explain to me why this particular talkpage is a discussion forum unlike any other on Wikipedia? Bialy Goethe (talk) 20:18, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

This page, IIRC, was specifically set up for such things - which is why it is separate from the standard Muhammad talk page. So, I believe such discussions are expected here, since that's the purpose of this sub-page. ;-) ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 20:22, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

That's about right - the issues that readers bring up about the images are raised so regularly that a consensus developed to "split off" such comments to a separate page, in order to keep the main talkpage from being overwhelmed by the exact same arguments day after day. Doc Tropics 20:36, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I raised this issue a few months ago, but it went nowhere. All this page serves as is a gutter to collect the waste that people don't want to see clutter up the main talk page. 99% of it is "OMG REMOVE PICTURZ NAO!!!!!" from one-off IPs that never come back to engage in any meaningful dialog. Honestly, this sub-pages should be deleted and any image removal requests on the main page should be removed without response. Tarc (talk) 21:08, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

But other pages like Talk:Ejaculation or Talk:Vagina don't have gutter image pages, and from perusing the archives I see they both get a lot of complaints. Why is this one different? On other talkpages, off topic conversation is archived or removed. Why is this method not used here? If you are going to make an exception against policy, why not just make an exception of WP:CENSOR for the Muhammad page and remove the images that create this page in the first place? Bialy Goethe (talk) 21:36, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Because (1) the conversations aren't truly off-topic - they simply are based on the wrong premise (that we'll censor Wikipedia in observance of someone's individual religious beliefs), and (2) there have been some who do come back to discuss the image "issue" - though yes (as Tarc alluded to) they are few and far between. There's no reason to be "rude" (which is what it would look like - even though I know that's not your intent) by simply deleting such things with no response. If every person who posts that request could be labeled undeniably as a troll or such, I'd consider it - but not everyone who has (or will) fit that category. I'm not willing to be (or appear to be) rude to a few simply because they fit the minority in actually coming here to discuss this, regardless of their reasons or perspectives. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 21:50, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Realistically, it seems that this page exists because a large enough number of people went more insane than usual over this issue, and people seemed to decide that giving them a place to vent would prevent serious problems in the future and, perhaps, the sheer weight of the archives would help dissuade some of them from even trying to force us to do things we're clearly not going to do.—chbarts (talk) 02:56, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

The old page was getting so cluttered with edit requests and discussions about the images that discussion about the article itself took a back seat.This was detrimental to its health and hence was split off --Sam 02:23, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Prophets images

I challenge you to find the differences between the current article and the following articles:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Nanak_Dev
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster

et cetera.

My point: even the those prophets who do not have a painting or an exact picture of them have an image in the upper right corner of the article, even if their likeness is imagined (i.e. Jesus); this article is the exception... why? are we trying to appease someone? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pista235 (talk • contribs) 18:14, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the difference is that the most common image used for those people is a painting of them, whereas paintings of Muhammad are rarely used and the stylized calligraphy is the most common image. Nevertheless, I like standardization and would choose a painting as the lead image if I were an administrator. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.119.234.2 (talk) 19:01, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Luckily, administrators don't make decisions like that: all decisions are made by consensus. 199... is correct: the infobox should contain a common representation of the person, one that captures how they are usually represented. So, for example, a modern sports star is usually represented with a picture of them actually playing their sport (or, at least, dressed for playing). Muhammad is almost always (like, 99+% of the time) represented via calligraphy. Our article should match that. This significantly outweighs the idea of inter-article consistency. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:23, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

• Agree - with Qwyrxian for reasons cited. If we say our standard is "most common representation" - then it would be consistent with our article standards to represent Muhammad with calligraphy. If the Muhammad article then appears different from other biographical articles, that's OK since the biographical subject is also rather exceptional. Rklawton (talk) 01:47, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Think about what you're suggesting. These talk pages have, time and again, for literally years now, rebuffed any effort to remove images from the Muhammad article. If using the calligraphic image was an attempt to appease someone, it would be a pretty lousy attempt. The demand is for the images existence, not their location. —Digital Jedi Master (talk) 03:32, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose - The pictures being in a different location is not going to make anyone feel better.The attempt to appease also makes the community a bit weak.When all the other religious figures have pictures at the header,why shouldn't Muhammad.this is setting a dangerous precedent.Muhammad is represented in the Muslim world by a calligraphy,no arguments there.But a historic figure is best represented by a picture.The calligraphic form was popularized as depictions of Muhammad were prohibited.A picture has more encyclopedic value as it better represents the person. --Sam 02:15, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
• Agree - I thought we'd just concluded this conversation elsewhere... No matter. Agree based on above, and as also discussed elsewhere, most other such figures have a consistent visual representation (such as Jesus; European, long hair, beard, etc), whereas, Muhammad does not. Sam: you mean oppose - you may wish to re-read what Qwyrxian said. The precedent has already been set to use the most common visual representation of the figure. In Muhammed's case, that's the calligraphy in the infobox and not an image. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 02:29, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Infobox image, revisited

thumb|right|The original infobox image I refer to this past short discussion: Talk:Muhammad/images/Archive 25#In fond memory of the infobox image

As folks here may recall, on 13 May 2011, the original lead image that graced this article for a long time, File:Aziz efendi-muhammad alayhi s-salam.jpg, was deleted from Commons as well as Wikipedia due to an uncertain copyright status, discussed at Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files/2011 April 20#File:Aziz efendi-muhammad alayhi s-salam.jpg.

We all agreed it was a superior calligraphic representation compared to what we have now, which in my opinion is a poor substitute.

I note that the image still exists on Wikipedia as shown on the right. The copyright rationale seems OK, and nobody has complained. It seems to have been around for a long time. What say we restore it to the article? Or is this one at risk for deletion too? ~Amatulić (talk) 22:45, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I haven't paid as much attention to the image rules for Wikipedia as I should have, but, presuming the use of this image is allowed, I say add it in. It is superior to what we've got. —Digital Jedi Master (talk) 03:15, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I also like that image, but the copyright claim makes no sense to me. It says it was published in a book in 1934, but claims public domain status under the "author + 100 years" rule. I mean, I assume the image itself is much older, but are we sure it didn't re-acquire copyright through novel use in the book? I'm thinking that especially because of the checkered background, which does not seem to be a part of the original image.

Having said all that, not only am I not a lawyer, I barely have a basic grasp on obvious copyright issues...when we start dealing with reprints, old documents, and non-US documents, I could just as easily be right as wrong. But if others are comfortable with the copyright claims, I also agree with switching the images. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:25, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I looked at the deleted version, and it contained the same copyright claim, so perhaps the issue remains.

Personally I find the rationale for deletion questionable, perhaps a too-cautious response by some who think they know enough about copyright law. Had I seen it the discussion, I would have participated. The entire rationale hinged on two things: (a) that it was deleted from Commons, and (b) the "publication date" of this image came from something recent.

If a book displays a picture of an ancient painting, how is that any different from me going to the museum and taking a picture of that painting? Neither the book publisher nor me can claim to have created the work. That would be like me creating an image of an album cover and claiming that I own it because I performed the scan. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, in my entirely non-legal understanding, that makes sense to me. Does anyone know of an image copyright expert editor who could provide us with some sort of input? Qwyrxian (talk) 04:05, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

The most obvious name is Moonriddengirl, and if she doesn't know she'll probably know someone who does. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:29, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Another option is to ask someone at OTRS to ask the publisher of the book if they would be willing to state that this particular image from their book is public domain. It may not be fruitful though, because it's already established that it's public domain in Turkey. That's the problem: If it's PD in the country of origin, why wouldn't the US respect that? ~Amatulić (talk) 18:26, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi. Images are not my primary focus; Calliopejen1 is one of the people who would come to mind, and she has found you on her own. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:23, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Some clarifications: this image was not published in 1934. Rather, we have a book from 1988 that prints this image. It is a book collecting the works of Khattat Aziz Efendi, a calligrapher who lived 1871-1934. (The book also notes that a different artist did the gilding on this particular illustration, but set that aside for the moment.) The book gives no clues as to the original date of publication, but we can't really assume that 1988 was the first publication, because the book is a retrospective about a notable artist. Who knows when it was first published. (It definitely isn't an "ancient painting" though--it's the work of an artist who lived not that long ago.) The two routes to PD would be: 1) first publication before 1923; and 2) first publication after 1978 (because only then does the 70-year rule kick in [1]). The problem is that we can't prove this image wasn't first published between 1923 and 1978, which would make it still copyrighted in the US. (The US doesn't follow the rule of the shorter term, for better or for worse, so the copyright status in Turkey is irrelevant.) If we wanted to ask the publisher/author anything, it would be very useful to know when this image was first published. (And I agree that a Turkish publisher commenting on US copyright law would be pretty pointless.) Calliopejen1 (talk) 20:24, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that Cornell link. Actually it seems pretty clear from the sections about publications abroad:

• As you said, if it was published before 1923 it's PD anyway.
• If it was published between 1923 and 1977 without compliance with US formalities (which seems to be the case), and in the public domain in its source country as of 1 January 1996 (which it is), then it is also PD in the U.S. The special case about adhering to the Berne treaty after 1996 doesn't apply to Turkey.
• If it was published on or after 1978 and it's been 70 years since the death of the author, it's PD.

I don't see the problem. ~Amatulić (talk) 20:44, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Wait, how was it public domain in Turkey as of 1996? List of countries' copyright length says it's 70 years after the death of the author, which would have made it PD in Turkey as of 2004, as far as I can tell. Calliopejen1 (talk) 02:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

You're right, but that wouldn't matter due to the third point, assuming the book the image was found in is the only one to be found: After 1 January 1978, if published either with or without copyright notice, and not in the public domain in its home country as of 1 January 1996, then it's public domain 70 years after death of author.

So I guess this all hinges on an uncertainty about when the first publication took place? ~Amatulić (talk) 14:40, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. I would guess, considering that he's decently famous, that the work was first published in his own lifetime. It would be like having an undated image in a Picasso book released in 1988. Maybe public domain, maybe not, but we certainly wouldn't assume that 1988 was the first publication. Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:54, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

If an image of a Picasso painting was first published in 1988 (say it was held in a private family collection and not shown to the public until donated to a museum — I've actually seen this in the case of Monet), isn't it kind of ridiculous that such an image would not be public domain? There's a certain amount of common sense to be applied to these copyright laws, no?

I notice you re-tagged that image with a fair use rationale. Would that be a path to using it in this article? While there may be equivalent calligraphic representations of the word "Muhammad" (a poor substitute is being used now), there's nothing we have that matches the beauty of this one. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:18, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

No, I just wanted to slap some tag on it indicating that it's non-free, so that I could start the orphan clock running without deleting it right this instant. (There's no rationale there, and it would be impossible to write one--the only almost-but-not-quite-valid way to use it would be on Khattat Aziz Efendi as an example of the artist's work, but we should be other confirmed free images by the artist given his birth/death dates.) Just because it's prettier than other images we've found so far doesn't justify using a non-free image. I'd try doing some research to find another attractive image of Muhammad in calligraphy, which might require doing some digging at a decent library. Calliopejen1 (talk) 19:10, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

That has been done; see the archive linked at the top of this section. The dissatisfactory result is the reason for re-opening the issue here. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:22, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I mean go to a physical library (probably a top-tier university library would be best) and page through old books on calligraphy... I don't see that that's been done. A Wikipedian could also take a photo of public art (at a mosque, perhaps?) in Egypt, India, Malaysia, Pakistan, Tunisia, or Turkey, where there are liberal freedom of panorama laws. Of course "prettier than existing images" fails WP:NFCC8, so the effort expended is irrelevant. But I can't bring myself to feel too bad about the relatively unattractive image here unless there has been a significant effort to find something better, which doesn't seem to have been done. Calliopejen1 (talk) 20:06, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Just realized I missed your response about Picasso above. My point was not about the copyright status of smoething published for the first time in 1988 (based on Picasso, this would still be copyrighted btw). My point was that if you saw a 1988 retrospective book about Picasso, it would be contrary to common sense to assume that something undated in the book was being published for the first time. It's reasonable to assume that most works by famous artists were published during their lifetime. Calliopejen1 (talk) 20:21, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Examples from other wikis, hopefully free: [2] [3] Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 20:51, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I like the first one, but the second one is worse than the stark representation we have now.

Hey, that first one is on commons! File:Prophet-Mohammed-Name.gif. It's apparently an original work by the uploader, but I like it. I'll put it in the article to see how everyone likes it. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:19, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

That one is definitely a copyvio (found clip art source), and I seriously doubt the second one (also on commons here) is self-made. Low-resolution professional-quality arabic calligraphy by a user from Ireland? I'm skeptical. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:54, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

There are plenty of Muslims all over the world, including Ireland, so I am not skeptical. It may not be original, but it's definitely derivative. If derivative, it seems no different from a photograph, which would be acceptable. Also, that image you linked (not the second one Wiqi55 linked) has been in use in the {{Muhammad}} template for ages. ~Amatulić (talk) 16:02, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I know there are Muslims in Ireland, but very low-res artworks raise red flags. I assume that relatively few people (even among Muslims) can create professional-quality original calligraphy like this. And typically someone creating an original artwork will have some sort of history of uploading that gives a clue into his background and/or will upload a higher-resolution file than this. (The low resolution is a good indication it was probably taken from the internet somewhere. If he had uploaded a ginormous png or vector version, I wouldn't be saying this.) And--assuming it is derivative of calligraphy elsewhere--unless we know what it's derivative of, we can't determine its copyright status. If it is derivative of a modern roundel, then it would be a copyright violation. Calliopejen1 (talk) 20:15, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Can someone translate both of the above images for me? Section by section? And perhaps point me to someplace where I can read up on what changes in stroke width and length may do to the meaning? I can whip up something I'd be willing to put in the public domain. No, I am not good at calligraphy (in the standard sense). I am good at creating new visual representations of line art, vector art and calligraphic art. Various of you have probably seen some samples of my work 10-20 years ago or so at Barnes & Noble, from the round calligraphic-like seal to the line-drawn "photos" of various authors. Various of those were small high res drawings to film and drawings to plate that I vectorized or modified and vectorized or used to create works matching other works. I'm willing to try, if the image everyone's currently selected does not meet fair use or PD. (So, I guess this question doesn't need answering yet). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 20:37, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Resolution on controversial images

The foundation recently passed a resolution on the use of controversial images which likely applies here. To quote:

We urge the community to pay particular attention to curating all kinds of potentially controversial content, including determining whether it has a realistic educational use and applying the principle of least astonishment in categorization and placement.

where the 'principle of least astonishment' means that media should conform to the readership's expectations of the topic. Since it is a general practice in the Muslim community not to depict the prophet, and since none of the images of the prophet presented on the page are factual or necessary to article content, they likely should be removed as contrary to this resolution. --Ludwigs2 14:11, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

This may come as a surprise to you, but Wikipedia does not cater exclusively to Muslims. Resolute 14:33, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Common practice in the Muslim community shouldn't create any expectations on the contents of an encyclopedia.—Kww(talk) 14:37, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

(ECx2)What you (Ludwigs2) describes may be the "general practice in the Muslim community", but Wikipedia is not a Muslim community. We follow standards and practices that are common in academic communities and educational institutions throughout the Western world. There is no English speaking country (and this is en.Wiki) where it is standard to censor biographical images for religious reasons. Furthermore, your argument contains false assumptions: that all readers of this article are Muslim, and that all Muslims are offended by images. Neither of those assumptions is true so your reasoning is false. Doc Tropics 14:40, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I certainly found them quite informative, and I was impressed that Wikipedia refused to cave in to the demands of a minority in the interest of being informative. That was something which convinced me to stay here. No one has the right to walk through life unoffended and demand everyone feel the same about what's "offensive"; I certainly don't have any problem with the images. But further discussion really should go here. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:45, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I am not comfortable with the prejudicial tone of the above responses. We may not cater to Muslims, but we do not go out of our way to offend them, either. Please try to adopt a more sensitive approach in future posts.

That aside, there is a flaw in the logic you've presented. It is common knowledge even among non-Muslims that Islam does not approve of images of the prophet; it is an established fact that there are no known-to-be-accurate depictions of the prophet from any source whatsoever. The images being used (if I remember correctly) are all from a long-defunct period in Muslim history and were never intended to be informative or accurate depictions of anything (they were artwork). in other words:

• There is no overriding encyclopedic reason to use images of the prophet here, since they are not critical to the content for any reason.
• People of every race, nation, and culture would find it astonishing that Wikipedia deliberately offends the sensibilities of any minority group - much less those of a major religion - for no readily apparent reason pertinent to the development of the encyclopedia.

In fact, this astonishment has been registered by numerous editors over the history of this article; it cannot be denied. Unless we can come up with a valid reason why these images are sufficiently necessary to the page to justify that astonishment, the pictures should be removed. --Ludwigs2 19:55, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

What you need to demonstrate is that there is a general expectation that an encyclopedia would conform to Muslim views. I certainly have no such expectation. Quite the contrary, in fact: I expect encyclopedias to give no credence to religious perspectives and sensibilities. I'm of the impression that the overwhelming majority, if not all, of the "astonishment" registered on this page is from Muslim editors.—Kww(talk) 20:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have found them to be informative on how Muhammad has been depicted historically, and how artists have tried to convey what they believe he looked like. That to me should answer your question of the encyclopedic value of the pictures. Singularity42 (talk) 20:27, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

@ Kww: please read the resolution again. This is not a question about 'conforming to Muslim views' (and in fact, raising the issue in that way seems to violate AGF and CIV; are you asserting that Muslim views are intrinsically bad?). The question to be answered is whether readers - assumedly readers naive to the editorial context on wikipedia - would generally be surprised or shocked to discover that the encyclopedia included the material. As I have said, most people (including Christians, Jews, Atheists, and etc) are aware that the Islam has a proscription against images of the prophet, so they would undoubtably be surprised to find that wikipedia is displaying them so prominently. Further, most people (including Christians, Jews, Atheists, and etc) would not find the images particularly informative, since they do not accurately or realistically depict any event in the prophet's life (or the prophet himself).

I am talking about the general readership; your repeated attempts to argue that "It's just those Muslims and they don't count" doesn't impress me as reasonable or supportable under policy.

@Singularity42: You are welcome to start the article Historical Depictions of the Prophet Muhammad, and include all of these images (and more) over there. I will not object to any of these images in that context (and in fact would have no grounds to do so even if I wanted). This article, however, is not an art history article, and art history rationales are not sufficient to overcome the resolution or related policy. --Ludwigs2 21:17, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

In any other article about a historical figure, we would include at least one or two pictures of how that figure was depicted historically. The only reason not to include such pictures in this article is because it would offend members of certain Muslim communities who believe any depiction is blasphemy. However, moving them to a different article (whether or not that was appropriate, and I think removing all pictures is inappropriate) would not solve the issue. The same religious objections would apply to the "historical depictions" article. So ultimately, nothing really gained, and the encyclopedia is ultimately less off by not including in the this article at least some image of how he was historically depicted. So I would not agree with such a proposal, and would instead support the current status quo. Singularity42 (talk) 21:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I haven't argued that it's "just Muslims and they don't count", I've argued that religious beliefs don't count in terms of determining encyclopedia content. Anyone's. No one should expect an encyclopedia to conform to any religious perspective, and I don't think that many people do expect an encyclopedia to conform to any religious perspectives. You assert that people would be astonished to find these images, and I assert that it would be more astonishing for people to find a secular encyclopedia whose editorial control included religious perspectives.—Kww(talk) 21:41, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

We have a Depictions of Muhammad article if anyone is really that interested. Ludwigs2, while I agree with your assertion that non-Muslims might very well know that Islams don't allow pictures of Muhammed, I disagree that they would conclude wikipedia wouldn't show these images. They may conclude that none really exist, and thus be surprised to find them, but I don't think that this sort of surprise was in the spirit of the foundation resolution. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 22:15, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

As much as I have opposed a number of the images, and I still think the number here may be excessive, and I still think the first image needs to remain the calligraphic one, I have to agree with the majority above who say that the "least astonishment" principle actually seems to imply that we should keep, not remove, some of the images. That being said, I believe that the problem will be solved anyway, since the resolution also directed the creation of image filtering tools. Thus, at some point in the future (hopefully not too long), there will be a way for viewers who are "astonished" (i.e., offended), by the Prophet's images may simply choose to not see them. I am very glad that such tools will exist, as it does exactly what we should do: censor little (beyond that required by law), but make it easy for people to control what they (or their families, or their customers, or whatever) do or don't want to see. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:17, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

(e/c)

@Singularity42: on an article dedicated to historical depiction, NOTCENSORED would apply properly - images of the prophet would be protected there because they would be central to the topic of the article. They are not central (or even needed) on this article.

@Kww: You have, in fact 'explicitly argued that. You said: "...the overwhelming majority, if not all, of the "astonishment" registered on this page is from Muslim editors" and used that as the reason why the 'astonishment' should be ignored. Other editors have been even clearer on the matter, such as resolute's assertion that "Wikipedia does not cater exclusively to Muslims". I am willing to believe that you are in fact working from a general principle (as you say, that: "religious beliefs don't count in terms of determining encyclopedia content"). Unfortunately, you regularly focus on the repressive argument that we should not let Muslim views dictate page content, and never address the positive logic which would explain why these images are needed in the first place. As the resolution suggests, if there is something central to article content that requires these images, we should of course use them, but if they aren't required, and we decide to offend Muslims regardless - well that's astonishing, isn't it? If in fact you truly believe that religious views don't count, then they should not count either way: anti-Muslim sentiment should not dictate content any more than pro-Muslim sentiment. As of now, however, anti-Muslim sentiments are being indulged.

Again, let me be clear: the astonishing thing in this is that Wikipedia dismisses and snubs the beliefs of a major world religion with negligible benefit to the encyclopedia. Insisting on images of the prophet on this page - where they have no particular meaning and no particular value - is effectively one giant middle finger to anyone who holds those beliefs.

@Chipmunkdavis: If I understand your argument, you're saying that most people (non-Muslims, anyway) probably wouldn't care all that much that the images are being used. I'd probably agree with that. However, I'm not sure that's relevant. The point-of-astonishment here (again) is that Wikipedia would take a stand on the issue for no particularly good reason. By choosing to show images of the prophet the project as a whole is explicitly telling Muslims their perspective has no place on this article. That would be explicable (and thus far less surprising to everyone) if there were valid reasons why such images were needed on the article. However, there are no such compelling reasons, and the project's choice to display such images regardless is mystifying. Why would we do such a thing? It's the one question here that no one has ever answered satisfactorily. --Ludwigs2 00:30, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Note the quotes around "astonishment", Ludwigs2. They aren't "astonished", they are upset. They normally quite explicitly identify their objection as being based on religious beliefs, and religious beliefs are irrelevant to making decisions about content in an encyclopedia. I've argued that LDS religious beliefs are irrelevant in the presentation of images of temple garments; that Christian beliefs are irrelevant in discussing the historicity of Jesus; that Moses, Abraham, and Joseph Smith cannot be presented as being prophets in fact; etc. Religious beliefs are irrelevant to the construction of an encyclopedia, regardless of the faith in which they are grounded. In this particular article, the objections center around the religious beliefs of one Islamic sect, and those beliefs are irrelevant. That doesn't make them better or worse than any other sects beliefs, simply irrelevant, and nothing I have said can reasonably be construed as meaning otherwise.—Kww(talk) 00:58, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Kww, you're misrepresenting my point (for the third time now). why are you doing that? You force me to shout:

AVERAGE EVERYDAY PEOPLE WOULD FIND WIKIPEDIA'S PUGNACIOUSNESS ABOUT VIOLATING MUSLIM CUSTOMS FOR NO REASON ASTONISHING

I hope that's clearer, thanks. --Ludwigs2 14:12, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

You seem to be alone in impugning the motivation of Wikipedia editors, Ludwigs2, and alone in you interpretation of what would most astonish our readers. I hear you quite clearly, and I believe you to be incorrect. Those are different things.—Kww(talk) 15:16, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

You can read it however you like: I was merely pointing out that I was saying "A" and you were responding as though I said "B". You can worry about your own motivations; I'm just concerned about your hearing. --Ludwigs2 16:57, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Ludwigs, you have been around Wikipedia long enough to know that this site is not censored. Especially for reasons of "I don't like it". You have not presented a single new argument that has not already been rejected a hundred times in the archives. The only argument you have is "everyone would be surprised to find images of Muhammad on this article", which is absolute nonsense. Nobody would be surprised to find images of Muhammad. That is, after all, how every article on historical figures is treated. The surprise would be if we censored this article to suit religious views. For Muslims who choose to be offended by such imagery, we already offer suggestions in the FAQ on how they can hide the images for their own use without degrading the quality of the article for everybody else. Resolute 00:24, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Resolute: I'm sorry, but I cannot accept an interpretation of NOTCENSORED that effectively reads "neener-neener-neener!" NOTCENSORED does not mean that we get to put any darned thing in the encyclopedia that we feel like and tell everyone who objects that they can go stuff themselves. NOTCENSORED is designed to protect valuable material from being removed from the encyclopedia when and where it would make articles less informative; it is not intended to support editors indulging in petty interfaith bickering. These images serve no particular purpose, the article would be no better or no worse with or without them, their absence would relieve the page of mounds upon mounds of endless conflict: any common sense approach would have removed them ages ago just because they are a senseless bother. and yet here you are arguing that we should stick by them and all the problems they cause because… wait, why was that again?

Ah, yeah: "neener-neener-neener!" wunnerful. --Ludwigs2 00:47, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Wow. So many false assumptions crammed into one paragraph. I counted six. If you can't see them for yourself, perhaps you should pause a bit to try. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:01, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Other articles about historic figures have images,don't they? Its purpose isn't just clutter.Images are quite useful in an encyclopedic article. This isn't some random collection of kittens and bunnies.(Although that would be epic!)The pictures here are historic depictions of the Muslim prophet,Many of them by Islamic artists.It's removal would make the article less informative.Ps,I think this particular argument was brought up before.Might wanna check the archives. --Sam 02:40, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Amatulić, please list out any false assumptions you see so that I can clarify them for you - I don't see a single one (well, with the exception that I doubt resolute is actually thinking neener-neener-neener… - that was more in the vein of sarcasm). I'll put money on the fact that you can't find anything justifiable. --Ludwigs2 14:19, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

You aren't even trying. My purpose in suggesting you try to see them for yourself was to gauge whether it's even worth my effort to continue this debate. If you honestly don't see a single one (and I wasn't counting the snarky neeners), that's an indication that I shouldn't bother to engage further. I'll be happy to answer your request if you honestly can't answer it yourself. ~Amatulić (talk) 16:15, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

You made the claim, I told you I don't see it. If you have a point to make, make it; if you don't, please retract the comment. Seriously, I'm always open to personal critiques and willing to admit I don't see something, but I don't have much use for the "maybe you should go think about that, young man" game. I mean, if you want to reduce this discussion entirely to the realm of emotional rhetoric I can go there, but that would be fairly pointless, don't you think? --Ludwigs2 16:55, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

"Willing to admit I don't see something"? You didn't seem willing some months ago when you involved yourself before. And here you are again, trotting out the same arguments, so forgive me if I'm skeptical that you truly are willing to admit it.

• NOTCENSORED does not mean that we get to put any darned thing in the encyclopedia that we feel like. Straw man. Nobody has made this claim.
• NOTCENSORED...is not intended to support editors indulging in petty interfaith bickering. That is hardly what's going on here. The only person doing the interfaith bickering is you, using a foundation of "oh, but we can't do anything to upset the faithful!" You even proposed a policy change to that effect, which was unanimously rejected by a large community of respondents.
• These images serve no particular purpose. The falsity of that statement has been pointed out to you so many times it hardly bears repeating.
• The article would no better or no worse with or without them. The consensus is that the article would be worse, particularly if the monotony of large swaths of text is not broken up in some way with an illustration.
• Their absence would relieve the page of mounds upon mounds of endless conflict. Have you actually read the recent complaints from people who say this article is actually biased toward Islam because it doesn't show a picture of Muhammad in the infobox? There's such a complaint on the main talk page right now. On the contrary, removing the images will not relieve the page of conflict. It would simply replace one conflict with another.
• They are a senseless bother. To whom? If they bother you, then find another place on Wikipedia to spend your time. If they bother someone on religious grounds, there are mechanisms available to avoid seeing the images, and the resolution that started this thread also included a provision to improve such mechanism. They certainly don't bother me or most non-Muslims, they don't bother Shia Muslims, they don't bother Persians (see their Wikipedia article on Muhammad), and this page has had its share of Muslim contributors who understand that the images have their place and aren't bothered by them either.

Let's see. Yup, that's six, like I said. I should not have had to point out these things. You have made these arguments before, they have been rejected before, and yet you keep at it. WP:DEADHORSE and WP:TENDENTIOUS come to mind. Introducing an excerpt of that foundation resolution was a new and original twist, I'll grant you that. But the basis of your arguments remains unchanged. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:50, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

You reveal your own inability to maintain NPOV, Ludwigs, and the fact that you view this as some kind of religious war ("petty interfaith bickering") is amusing. I care about no religion save for the historical existence of them. Unfortunately, because of your own bias, you are unable to accept that this isn't an article about religion. It is an article about a 7th century individual who had a significant impact on world history, in part by founding a religion. And when I look at historical figures, especially ones of such importance, I very much expect to see examples of how said individual was depicted. As I said, for people who choose to see offence in their existence, Wikipedia has provided a means for you to remove them for your session. These images are valuable to those of us who prefer to preserve rather than destroy, alter or censor history. Resolute 14:56, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

What bias are you referring to, Resolute. Do you think I'm Muslim? You probably do, at that…

I ask a very simple question - why are we offending the principles of someone else's faith for no particularly good reason - and you respond by asserting that no one's faith matters. Well, your personal atheism aside, faith obviously matters to a lot of people, we have an obligation to our readers to be respectful, and randomly disrespecting their faith for no gain is not sensible behavior. I assume you do not walk around at work randomly dissing Jews, Muslims, Catholics, Buddhists, or whatever (or if you do, I assume you are called to account for it regularly); Why do you advocate for behavior here that you would shun in your own workplace? --Ludwigs2 15:10, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't go around calling black people Niggers either. What is worthwhile to an encyclopedia is not the same as what is appropriate for the workplace. And on that same vein, your simple question is irrelevant. In a free society, we don't mask history on the basis of giving offence. We don't remove our articles on Nazi Germany because modern Germans find the subject touchy (and I apologize for Godwinning the thread). We don't delete the article on the Nanking Massacre because a sizable portion of Japan wants to pretend it never happened. We don't hide the existence of the Tiananmen Square protests because China isn't too keen on it being remembered. I'm sorry my friend, but a large part of history is offensive to any number of people or cultures. That is no valid reason to remove material. Resolute 16:34, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Lovely straw man you've got going there. Unfortunately, it is nothing more than a straw man. Consider the following two actions:

• Doing something that offends people because it is necessary to do it to give a complete and accurate description of a topic
• Doing something that offends people because it is pretty/fun/cute

If you do not see the difference between these two actions, then I have no choice except to question your competence as an editor. These images are decorative, not informative (N.B. that might be a debatable point with a couple). This is not akin to trying to excise Tiananmen Square, Nazism, or racial prejudice from the encyclopedia; It's about avoiding the use of images that have no particular value in the spirit of peace and goodwill. --Ludwigs2 17:16, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of logical fallacies, your entire argument is based on the assumption that the images hold no value. Given that is obviously false, your argument has always lacked merit. Which, of course, is why you assume bad faith on the part of those with whom you disagree. It really should not have to be said, but I do not advocate keeping the images because it pisses anyone off. I advocate keeping them because they are historically relevant, support the article's content and are necessary to maintain the NPOV of the article. And once again, those that wish to honour their own faith have been given means to do so. Resolute 17:31, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

If they have value, please specify what that value is. simple enough, yah? I'll be waiting for a response. --Ludwigs2 18:12, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

The same way any other image has value. Graphically illustrates the subject, illustrates important moments of the subject's history. Visual aid for people, who are a visual animal. The very nature of how a person is depicted shows the reader how the individual was viewed at the time of the creation. In this case, there is also a significance in the fact that their very existences proves that Muhammad has been drawn and depicted over the years, including by Muslim artists. Thus their very existences serves to educate the reader on the fact that such religious intolerances have not always existed. But then, this argument has been made many times before and if you want other reasons, go through the archives. Additionally, if you are considering wasting my time with further "But they don't like them" or "But they aren't real" rebuttals, don't bother. Both have already been argued many times, and are in the archives. This discussion has already long since become yet another rehash of the same tired arguments. As it is, consensus holds that the images have value. It is incumbent on you to change consensus by showing that this belief is mistaken. Until you can, your entire argument is a non-starter. Resolute 19:17, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

• This entire proposal simply reeks of bad-faith. Ludwigs, who do you think you're trying to kid here, twisting a foundation resolution to serve your own bias? We are here to present an encyclopedic treatment of Muhammad, a biography that, yes, includes historical images. That some are unreasonably hateful of such imagery is just too flippin bad. For the rest of the civilized world, it is not astonishing or surprising in the slightest that an image of the subject appear in a wiki article on the subject. There is no part of that resolution that is applicable here. Tarc (talk) 17:08, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

  again, Tarc, what bias is that. If you are accusing me of a particular bias, you had best identify what it is, otherwise that is simply a personal attack which I will ask you to remove. --Ludwigs2 17:19, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

  There is no good-faith explanation for why someone would take something the foundation directed primarily at sexual images and try to use it to prop up their failed position of image removal here. You have made such cases in the past that WP:NOTCENSORED should not protect the images in this article, you saw this foundation proposal and thought it would prop up said arguments. Clear enough for you? Tarc (talk) 17:56, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

  I have explained my reasons multiple times in multiple places. here it is again, for your personal benefit: I do not believe that the project should insult or offend anyone or anything except where we need to for the purposes of articles. You still have not explained what bias I purportedly have, or why that multiply-expressed reasoning constitutes a bias. please do so, or retract your accusation. thanks. --Ludwigs2 18:12, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

  You just explained your bias quite clearly; unbridled political correctness. Let me make this quite clear; the images will not be removed from this article. Period. Full stop. Tarc (talk) 18:43, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

  Just checking this page quickly while doing other things. Can an administrator please caution Tarc about personal attacks and wp:page ownership issues? If not, I will request help from ANI in the evening, but a simple reminder should be sufficient. Will respond to substantive points later. thanks. --Ludwigs2 19:40, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

  It was not a personal attack ,I'm afraid, you don't get to hide behind that oft-abused shield. Someone who says "I do not believe that the project should insult or offend anyone or anything except where we need to for the purposes of articles" is expressing political correctness; pointing out the truth about what someone said is not a derogatory statement. Secondly, there is no issue of ownership here. What you have done here, and continue to do, is bring up an old, dead tired, suggestion that has been rejected again and again and again and again by an overwhelming consensus of editors. Much the same as some wish the CRU hacking case to be called "Climategate" or for Barack Obama's bio to note the skepticism of birthers over his birth certificate...tired, repetitive, dead-horse arguments eventually get flagged as tendentious and the pusher of such winds up with a good ol bommerang to the face. I note over on the pregnancy article you are engaging in the exact same behavior as you are here, so I kindly suggest the the problem lies in your own behavior, and not with any of your perceived opponents. At the end of the day, consensus has determined that the encyclopedic value of images of Muhammad override any vanishingly small minority of religious conservatives that do not like to see such images. Tarc (talk) 20:04, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

  Well said. Rklawton (talk) 20:12, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

• Let me be clear: I like to play intellectually rough. I just keep getting in trouble for it, so I thought I would try the utterly civil approach for a while. But if you prefer the rough-talk-tough-walk paradigm, I am more than happy to oblige. at least for this one post. With that in mind, a response…

• 1. You can accuse me of political correctness all you like, but from my side all I can say is this: the extravagant effort I see dumped into defending these trivial images is only explainable by deep-seated anti-Islamic prejudice. Say what you will, but it's obvious these images are being used to POV-push against the Muslim religion, and that that wholly-unacceptable-under-policy practice is being shielded by using NOTCENSORED to shut down any reasoned discussion. Don't think I have an iron in this fire - I'm an ex-Catholic and philosophical agnostic, so I don't really give a hoot - I just note the utter refusal on this page to pay even a trivial token of respect to Muslim practices and let that oddness speak for itself, as it does loudly and clearly. There is no identifiable purpose to these images on this article (or to the endless battleground that's been created in this talk) except to demean Muslim beliefs. It is shameful.
  2. When you say "the images will not be removed from this article. Period. Full stop.", you are refusing to discuss the issue and insisting that the page will not change from your preferred version. that is the very definition of wp:page ownership. Sorry. Would you like me to invite a non-involved admin in here for his opinion? I specifically asked for help from this page because I didn't want you to get sanctioned (i figured people here would go easy on you, and I was right), but if you're willing to take that risk I'll go looking.

  I will continue to bring up these issues (as is my right under wp:CON) until I believe they have had a fair, reasonable, and appropriate hearing. I don't care how long it takes, or how many previous editors have been frightened away, or which DR or administrative processes will need to be invoked to achieve that end; this issue WILL be resolved in the end by reasonable discussion, not by policy declamations, bad faith accusations, or strong language. The sooner you come to terms with that, the easier it will be for all of us.

  Your serve. (this should be interesting…) --Ludwigs2 03:13, 22 October 2011 (UTC)