Talk:Suicide bag

Copyright Violation / DMCA Takedown Notice

On August 1 and 2, 2009, 129.241.137.240 added, to the 'See Also" section of this Wikipedia article, direct links to allow the downloading of a pirated version of the copyrighted Final Exit PDF eBook and to allow viewing of a pirated copy of the copyrighted Final Exit Addendum. Both actions were DMCA violations, in addition to the DMCA violations due to the offending domain hosting the two copyrighted documents. And more importantly these actions were just plain wrong. The links have been removed from this article. Wikipedia Managers please remove these URLs from the history of this Wikipedia page. The DIY book which is also listed in 'See Also' section is also likely copyrighted and the download link should be deleted as well. Anonymous 129.241.137.240 should be banned from making any further edits to any Wikipedia pages, and all edits to any other Wikipedia pages by this IP should be investigated. SilverLiner (talk) 09:21, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

DIY version

Are the DIY steps really necessary? The video (that they seem to be taken from) is referenced in the article, so should such a subject have a "how to" section? [ cycle~ ] (talk), 02:00, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Since the video has been removed from Youtube after protests from religious groups opposed to people having control over the time of their dying, and could be removed from other repositories at a moment's notice, and since as an Inclusionist I see no value in removing data from this short article, I would prefer to see it stay. ► RATEL ◄ 02:33, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

My issue is not really with the content, but how it's displayed. It is very much a set of instructions, but I feel it would be more useful in prose, as a less-structured how-to guide: "The steps to making an Exit Bag (as described by EXIT Australia) include using such items as...". Additionally, if the video is no longer available on YouTube (where it was embedded from in the source used) is there another available source to cite in its place? [ cycle~ ] (talk), 02:58, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, cycle~. Here's the original text, please rework it into prose that does not lose the informational value, if you can.

The steps to making an Exit Bag can be summarised as follows:

1. Get a large size oven bag
2. Fold up the open end for 2 to 3 centimetres (0.79 to 1.18 in)
3. Tape down the folded edges on each side using Micropore tape
4. On one side in the middle, use two 10 centimetres (3.9 in) pieces of tape to reinforce a section of the fold right to the edge of the bag
5. In the reinforced section, use scissors to cut an opening perpendicularly through the fold
6. Thread thin elastic through the tunnel created by the fold
7. Once threaded, attach loose ends of elastic to a plastic flat-topped cord lock or cord toggle (available from a haberdashery)

Yes, the video is available elsewhere (for the time being). The article has a link (I think). ► RATEL ◄ 03:12, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Image

I found and uploaded to Commons an image of a suicide bag demonstration: Image:Suicide bag.jpg. While probably not unencyclopedic, it looks rather disturbing. Any thoughts on adding it to the article? Óðinn (talk) 06:10, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

You're kidding, right? A pic of a teenager clowning around in a plastic bag? Get real. ► RATEL ◄ 06:55, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Eh? Is there an appropriate picture in your mind for this article? And if so, what would it be? --MZMcBride (talk) 22:30, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

An appropriate picture would be a pictorial of a bag, without the contorted face of a clown inside it. I would have thought that was self evident. Did you really have to ask that question? ► RATEL ◄ 23:58, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the picture is a very appropriate. This important subject needs to be illustrated, and this is free picture that was created for this purpose, like many other on wikipedia. That some users do not like it, that is not relevant. And please, do not call other wikipedians "clowns", this is inappropriate to say the least. Daa-gamma (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC).

It's not appropriate in the slightest. It's a sick-humor teenage prank. ► RATEL ◄ 16:42, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

That is your opinion. I do not find anything humorous about the subject, and illustration is appropriate. If you can make a better one, upload it yourself, but this is the best we have so far. Daa-gamma (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:44, 30 July 2009 (UTC).

Not only is it NOT a suicide bag, but the image is clearly unencyclopedic. You will end up having your IP banned if you continue this. ► RATEL ◄ 16:46, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

You insult other editors, call them clowns, push your POV, and now threaten me on top of all this. Please mind civility rules here. This illustration is appropriate and was already suggested by another editor. It will not be erased just based on your arbitrary and questionable taste. Daa-gamma (talk) 16:49, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The image is very misleading. Dr Philip Nitschke explains in The Peaceful Pill Handbook: "There is much misinformation however about how a plastic Exit Bag works and why it is so effective. The common assumption is that the bag causes death by "suffocation". … For example, when referring in 2001 to the importation of Canadian Exit bags, The Australian newspaper reported these bags as 'reminiscent of the Khmer Rouge's shopping bag executions in Cambodia's killing fields.' Such misinformation shows a significant lack of understanding of the process, and such reports have damaged the image of the Exit Bag."

When used properly, "the plastic Exit Bag causes a peaceful death; one that comes from (freely) breathing low oxygen air (hypoxia). With an Exit Bag, a person breathes easily and peacefully. The bag expands and contracts with each breath and the oxygen level inside the bag falls. This is in stark contrast to the terror of suffocation." – 129.241.137.240 (talk) 13:32, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes the image was very misleading. Thank you for removing it. SilverLiner (talk) 09:21, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Category:Suicide vs. Category:Suicide methods

Category:Suicide methods is itself a category within Category:Suicide. — Robert Greer (talk) 21:27, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Cautionary Statement

Be advised, this article and the information contained with-in are for informational purposes. This is serious subject matter and for anyone reading this article, for anything but educational research, please consider all actions and thoughts. Reach out to a local agency for help. Someone close to me has learned the hard way, and while I cannot ask for this article to be removed making which would have made it more difficult to find the information, I can implore others to seek hep. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.74.138 (talk) 14:01, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Deletion of majority of article

User claudiosantos has tried to reduce the article to a stub by removing the historical info about what forms of suicide bag were available over the years. I ask him to stop. The justifications he gave are not appropriate. Jabbsworth (talk) 06:32, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

User Night of the Big Wind is insisting that any mention of the video that shows people how to make an exit bag is "promotional", and that any mention of the suicide tent, which makes the bag unnecessary, is also promotional. It appears he thinks I work for exit international. I do not, please let it be known. I ask NoBW to put here his version of the deleted text so that we can still mention these real things that actually occurred/exist without seeming to promote anyone. BTW, I have just checked and that Betty video is now available all over the net, eg here. Jabbsworth (talk) 17:51, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Publishing details of how a suicide bag works and its effects are not encyclopedic purposes, but purposes of the cited pro-euthanasia organizations promoting the use of this device. Therefore thus using wikipedia to achieve their private goals. And publishing how a suicide device works could be an infrigment of american laws prohibitting to assist suicide and binding to wikimedia foundation inc. I will take all that info out. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 15:33, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

If you think this breaks the law, take it up at the relevant noticeboard; do not start another editwar please. Jabbsworth (talk) 16:44, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

The present version, without the history and the DIY-versions but with the (smaller) picture included, is in my opinion the most neutral version. No pro's, no con's, no manuals. Just: this is a suicide bag and it works this way. Maybe, maybe, maybe, an external link can be added to the DIY-department, if that makes Jabbsworth happy. Night of the Big Wind _talk 21:28, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the longer, stable, sourced version of the article is "POV pushing." Merely describing the history of a suicide bag is in no way an endorsement of it. I'd be tempted to revert to the older version, but I'm not really interested in getting caught up in the tendentious edit-warring that is going on lately at some of the euthanasia and suicide related articles. Still i thought it worth mentioning here on the talk page in case there are others who might agree but are also reluctant to get entangled in the apparently inevitable edit war - please come out of the woodwork if you're there. Dawn Bard (talk) 23:43, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree that I don't see the alleged POV pushing. I'll revert... Jesanj (talk) 00:03, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Request for comments

In my opinion several parts are not useful or even irrelevant for the article. I like to hear comments from others about this. Night of the Big Wind _talk 14:29, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

This is not how one conducts a RfC. Do you need help? Jabbsworth (talk) 16:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

DIY

In my opinion the whole part about the DIY-versions is unencyclopedic and should be removed. An encyclopedia is not the place to tell what types of bags are available and how to use them. Promoting suicide is illegal in several countries, and adding the DIY-version can be seen as promotion and thus make WP vulnerable to prosecution.

The types described originally were closely related to companies named in the article, making it promotional. Night of the Big Wind _talk 14:29, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

If the material is reliably sourced, and it is, to book and/or newspapers, then it should be there. More sources can be found as well. Make sure you read wp:CENSOR. Jabbsworth (talk) 16:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

History

The history section is also too closely related to the companies mentioned within. Partly it is based on a references to an article named "Patience and Plastic Bags". Unfortunately this article refers to endnotes that are not there, making this references substandard. Another part "Dr Nitschke has stated that nitrogen is more physiological than helium and less likely to lead to body movements during dying. is referenced to "The Peaceful Pill Handbook". Unfortunately, the references to it is nothing more then a link to the cover of the book. It supplies no information at all!

In fact this paragraph works as a manual, telling people how to commit suicide. Promoting suicide is illegal in several countries, and adding the DIY-version can be seen as promotion and thus make WP vulnerable to prosecution.

As the paragraph is badly referenced and "illegal" (at least in some countries) is should be removed completely or be rewritten is such a way that is does not works as a manual or promotes books.Night of the Big Wind _talk 14:29, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

If you feel there are legal issues, you must take this to a noticeboard, not discuss it here. Jabbsworth (talk) 16:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)