Talk:Turkish Van

Rewritten

This article has been completely rewritten to reflect only information about the modern breed, as per the consensus of the discussion above. All info about the landrace has been removed, and it is clear at the beginning that the landrace is something different. All OR, citing yourself, speculation, fantastic facts, "we"s and "mighty bones" have been removed. This is now in line with the other breed articles. I found this reference http://vancatblog.com/photo-gallery/?album=all&gallery=8 with pictures of van marked cats in the van area of Turkey most interesting. pschemp | talk 10:32, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Wow - I think that article confirms that Lushington was rather deceptive from the outset. She claims she saw one "Van cat" curled up in a disused lobster pot. There are no lobsters within a thousand miles of Lake Van, so that cat was not a "Van cat"! She claims she saw a "Van cat" curled up under a blue gum tree (a Eucalyptus) - these are not found in the Lake Van region, they could not survive the long and very cold winters. So that cat too was not a "Van cat"! The landscape we see in the picture of the cat on the leash is also not like any landscape you can see around Lake Van (I've been thee many times). I think that what Lushingham might have brought back from Turkey were a number of unrelated long-haired cats that had similar markings and which probably had no connection to real Van cats. And as for her first two "Van cats" - she writes that she got one from Istanbul, and another from some unidentified location in eastern Turkey (presumably not Van, or why would she not just say Van). Meowy 22:09, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Yet another reason not to confuse Turkish Van and Van cat. The fact that the Turkish Van breed is probably misnamed is hardly anything new in the cat fancy; most breeds have jack to do with with their geographic namesakes. Not sure how to approach this problem from WP:NOR perspective. Isn't there any published criticism of the "Turkish Vans are descended from Van cats" idea? I suggested above that this idea should be included and sourced if it's reliably sourceable, but if it's not, perhaps the opposite is true. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 23:12, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't read cat-related magazines or periodicals and such like, so I don't know. All I know is that some 2 or 3 years ago, when all the arguments here were going on, I looked at a lot of the more silly Turkish Van websites, home produced things, and messageboards, they were full of comments like "I saw a Turkish Van on the streets of Cairo" or "look at the stray Turkish Van I found in a back lot in Los Angeles" - of course none of them were descendants of Lushington's pedigree cats and it all indicated (to me) that the Turkish Van colouring is just an uncommon variation found in normal long-haired big-boned cats everywhere and that, by implication, even the Lushington cats may have had no connection at all to real Van cats. Meowy 02:22, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

You always want to insert your own OR don't you? I think the pictures of Lushington WITH the cats (in the reference I mentioned above) shows that they are indeed related. She was a famous photographer in her day, and there is no reason to assume she is/was lying. Assume good faith and all that. You have nothing to prove that she wasn't telling the truth. I highly doubt you are a tree identification expert and it is entirely possible that due to language differences and translation errors that the tree name is incorrect.pschemp | talk 20:58, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

SMC, There is no "sourced" criticism because there is no reason to assume Laura Lushington was lying. In fact, that's a pretty outrageous claim to make with no proof. Her story is corroborated by the others who were there with her, and anything else is A. Speculation, B. Original Research or C. Thinly disguised nationalism. pschemp | talk 21:02, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, I think the clear thing to do is to stick to sources as much as possible that name their own sources. About 95% of cat-related stuff in print is unsourced rehash so this is easier said than done. The vast majority of magazine articles on cats are pure tripe. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 06:24, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Is it correct to give the origin as "Turkey"? The Turkish Van breed was not developed inside Turkey. A glance at various other cat breed articles shows that the origin seems to be where the breed developed, not where the cats that gave birth to the breed might have originally come from. Meowy 03:06, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

OF course it is. The cats all came from Turkey, period. The Turkish Angora, the cat breed in the most similar situation, also lists its origin as Turkey. Few other breeds have such careful records and pedigrees that show all the cats originally came from one country. pschemp | talk 19:24, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

The Turkish Van breed was NOT developed in Turkey! How on earth can you (or the infobox) claim otherwise? Meowy 15:36, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

The infobox doesn't say the breed was "developed" in Turkey, but that it originated there. This is an issue with the infobox, really, and should be taken up at Template talk:Infobox cat breed. In the interim, I suggest that both Turkey (as origin of the breeding stock) and the UK (as where the actual initial breeding was done) both be listed, as different kinds of true facts, but equally true. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 16:20, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I am at a loss to understand what this argument is about. The original sources are crystal clear. The 1965 Lushington article states quite clearly that she had not been to Van when she acquired her cats: "In April 1963 I told the story of my Van cats from Turkey, and I described both how I came to own and love them, and some of their eccentricities and fascinating characteristics. Now at last I have been to Van, in Eastern Turkey, and seen with my own eyes the ancient city of Van and the glorious Lake Van." In the 1963 article she says "I first came across the Van cat about seven years ago, while I was travelling through Turkey. I was given a female in south-eastern Turkey and a male by the manager of the hotel in which I stayed in Istanbul." So there's nothing "vague" about this at all. It's absolutely clear. She was given a male and a female of a type of cat identified as "Van" cats, but only later visited Van. What's the problem? Maybe she's telling a pack of lies. Maybe it's the God's own truth, but it's fairly clear and consistent. All we need to do is report what she says. If there are other sources that contradict her, shove them in too. Here's the link to the original '63 article [1] (there's some garbling of the online text due to OCR problems, but the original scanned photographs of the pages can be read). The only ambiguity is that bit about "south eastern Turkey". Since the Van Province is in South Eastern Turkey, it's possible that the female was literally from Van in the broad regional sense. If so, that would mean that her later 1965 visit was specifically to the city and the lake. Then again, there is a lot of south eastern Turkey outside the Van Province. Nevertheless, there is certainly nothing deceptive here. Lushington is never claiming that the cats were picked up in Van, just that they were of a type known as "Van" cats (you don't have to literally get a "Manx cat" from the isle of Man). Meowy's extraordinary claims about Lushington seem to be completely unsubstantiated. Meowy insists that Lushington is "seeming to say two different things...(before she started to call them "Turkish Vans") she is very vague as to their origin and her words imply that she got the cats from everywhere in Turkey but Van (and, significantly, she NEVER actually states that she got them from Van)." She's not vague at all. She calls them Vans from the outset. There is no sign that she is saying "two different things". There's certainly no reason to say that "Lushington was rather deceptive from the outset." So she says "she saw one 'Van cat' curled up in a disused lobster pot". Meowy triumphantly asserts that "there are no lobsters within a thousand miles of Lake Van, so that cat was not a 'Van cat'!" What a silly argument. That's like saying you could never see a Dalmatian dog in a jungle because there are no jungles in Dalmatia. She's referring to a type of cat. Whether or not that type is correctly identified as a descendent of cats local to Van is another question, but there is nothing deceptive, inconsistent or confused about what she says. Paul B (talk) 23:12, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Have you read anything about these discussions. and back through the archive? There is a genuine Van Cat, and there is the "Turkish Van". There are those that claim the latter are also the former. And there are editors here who support orhave supported that position. You quote: "In April 1963 I told the story of my Van cats from Turkey, and I described both how I came to own and love them, and some of their eccentricities and fascinating characteristics. Now at last I have been to Van, in Eastern Turkey, and seen with my own eyes the ancient city of Van and the glorious Lake Van." In the 1963 article she says "I first came across the Van cat about seven years ago, while I was travelling through Turkey. I was given a female in south-eastern Turkey and a male by the manager of the hotel in which I stayed in Istanbul." and claim there is clarity! But the lack of clarity is not in what Lushington said in these early sources, but between what is said in them them and what is said in late sources which claim or imply that all the Turkish Vans are descended from cats that were from Lake Van. In the early sources, NOWHERE does she state that she got the cats in Van. These early articles were not available for consultation in past discussions here. Lushington can call her cats Van cats, but her calling them Van cats no more makes them actual Van cats than her calling them Moon Cats would make them from the Moon. And it is still not clear on what basis Lushington called these cats that she did not get in Van "Van cats" - were they called that by whoever sold them to Lushingtom because it was not illegal to export Van Cats from Turkey (but it was illegal to export the very similar looking "Ankara Cat")? Meowy 16:12, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I read through the archive, and was quite shocked by your seemingly almost deranged obsession with implausible consipiracy theories dating at least as back as far as 2009. Some of your replies to user:Elen of the Roads bordered on the disturbed IMO. It's really very simple. Lushingtion aquired two cats that were identified to her as "Van cats". Whether that was true or not is impossible to say, and indeed it depends on how you define "Van cat", but there is absolutely no reason to doubt that she believed it to be true or to make ludicrous claims of lying. As far as I could see Elen came up with evidence that the "Turkish Van" markings are found in some cats from Van, but you just made preposterous claims that photos were faked! Why? No one had any motive. You seem to want to insist that only pure white cats are "real" Van cats. This all seems to me to be a lot of silly nonsense. The Western breed is derived from Turkish cats identified as Van cats. No one had any discernable ideological or other reason to deceive anyone about this. Your repeat your mantra "In the early sources, NOWHERE does she state that she got the cats in Van." Yes, I know. I said so, didn't I? You are capable of reading bolded text aren't you? It's irrelevant whether or not she got them in Van, for the same reason that you don't have to go to the Isle of Man to get a Manx cat. It's completely irrelevant. Paul B (talk) 17:52, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

You had better start to watch your language, your attitudes, and your ignorance. Meowy 01:54, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

No Meowy, I think you are the one that needs to watch their language. I have a mop, and access to your previous history. Please moderate your language, do not call people liars, do not call reliable sources 'lies' and stop assuming bad faith of all those around you, or you already know what the consequences will be. Elen of the Roads (talk) 02:03, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I did indeed do a trawl through Flikr for tourist photos taken around Lake Van. Across Turkey, odd-eyed white cats with long silky coats are the most prized, and Meowy and Zara Arush spent a long time arguing about whether or not Van cats were all white. The tourists who had photographed the cute kitties did show that the cats in Van come in a variety of colours, including with ring tail markings and a splodge on their back. Zara Arush came up with a secondary source (not her) for a legend about the splodge marking similar to the legend of St Peter's thumbprint on the John Dory. Lushington was given two cats that were said to come from Van, had the thumbprint and ringtail, and liked a swim. When she went to Van, she found other cats that swam and had these markings, reinforcing her belief that this was a separate breed of cat from the whites, which are found all over Turkey. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:03, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Modern tourist photographic evidence of cats running around in the Van area is utterly worthless, because cat landraces all over the world are losing their genetic distinctiveness, because when people move, they bring their pets with them, and they interbreed. For example, landrace Manx cats are almost extinct on the Isle of Man. This isn't even on-topic here anyway, but a discussion that belongs at Talk:Van cat, if anyone wants to continue it. PS: I think it's really inappropriate to swing your mop around like that; it comes across as a thinly veiled "don't argue with me or I'll block you" threat. That said, I am no defender of Meowy, and have already prepared an entire ARBCOM (well, WP:AE, technically) case against him, if he resumes editwarring on these or other articles in ways that cross the WP:ARBAA2 line. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 03:11, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

This is unfair!

Resolved

 – Wrong article.

VAN CAT is the correct Term! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.1.68.159 (talk) 14:53, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

See Van cat. CMD (talk) 16:57, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, they're totally different. There's no evidence for (cited so far) and strong evidence against the case that they're even closely related. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 03:03, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Can anybody undo the vandalism of one Armenian Հայկ Ափրիկյան?

Resolved

 – Moved back, and Armenian Van redirected to Van cat

This type of cat is known as Turkish Van and accepted as such in cat fancy. There is no Armenian Van! --Ankara Kedisi 14:08, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I wonder how long you Հայկ Ափրիկյան will continue to move this article to Armenian Van. There isn't any Armenian Van! Obvious case of vandalism. Admins please watch this page... --Ankara Kedisi 22:09, 18 April 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ankarakediler (talk • contribs)

As usual, it's people confusing this British-developed formal breed, with ohly tenuous ties to Turkey and maybe none to the Lake Van area, with the Van cat, a landrace native to the Lake Van area of what is today Turkey and formerly partly in Armenia and in what is loosely termed Kurdistan, with Turks, Armenians and Kurds all claiming cultural ties to those cats. Not this cat show breed. It's really unfortuate they don't renaming this thing the Turkish Bicolor or something.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:34, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Dispute about reliable sources of claim of affinity for water

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Talk:Van cat#Turkish Van (not Van cat) and water. Oddly enough, this arose at Van cat, where the Turkish Van's alleged fondness for water was mentioned, and the conflicting sourcing about this is (maybe it's true, maybe it's not) also mentioned, sparking an revert war.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

"They bred true"

I am unclear on what this means. Is this a British phrase? I think it needs to be clarified for other readers. Also, does anyone have a particular interest in this breed of cat? The article could sure use some work as a whole. Bali88 (talk) 02:36, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

"Black" Turkish Van variety

The pictured cat is decidedly not a black cat. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 12 Adar 5775 19:34, 3 March 2015 (UTC)