Talk:2011 Israeli social justice protests

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 92.206.226.112 (talk) at 08:22, 5 September 2011 (→‎Editors Hostile to protests skewing related articles). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

WikiProject iconIsrael C‑class High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles
CThis article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Project Israel To Do:
Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Naming

Why is the article named Israeli "housing" protests?? it should be named 2011 Israeli protests, the protesters demand social justice not just homes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBTJaieg-Rs&feature=share

I guess how is this connected to Arab Spring?????? Shmuliko (talk) 12:41, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's not - unless a secondary source says otherwise. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1] 19:59, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly think not. Not taking sides here, it's clearly mostly a student protest where the students can protests because they are on vacation. Also most of the forces involved are not trying to destroy our democracy by overthrowing the government (although some were carrying signs implying this, but they are the exception, not the rule). Also, in terms of Wikipedia policy specifically, Brightgalrs is absolutely right. —Ynhockey (Talk) 20:31, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
These protests were definitely inspired by the Arab Spring. Plenty of sources make this connection.[1][2][3] (found via google search of "Arab Spring housing protests") Rami R 21:41, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well alright, it should be mentioned that the media has made a connection. I'll add it in the header. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1] 05:36, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the protesters themselves carried signs and used slogans that first appeared in the Arab revolutions, like "the people demand.." and "Erhal" which means Leave http://www.flickr.com/photos/activestills/6015827664/in/photostream

I still don't know about the Arab Spring conn ection, it sounds like an anti-Semitic joke: "Arabs protest for freedom, Israelis protest for discounts". The Israeli protestors want the government to remain firmly in place and for it to have more power. No one has died or is willing to die for this cause. Does this protest have anything to do with the Arab Spring other than being, well, a protest?

Don't you remember how this "Arab spring" all started, with the Tunisian revolution? It all started because the Tunisian protested about economic issues like food prices and poor housing. So these are definitely related - although in many respects very different. Nyh (talk) 11:56, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We should change the name to 2011 Israeli Social Protests. That's what the local media over there is calling it.Ericl (talk) 13:29, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Context

To establish some context for readers not familiar with the Israeli housing market, it would be interesting to specify how high these prices actually are - say, compared to an average salary. Surely there are sources that discuss the actual figures in relation to the protests. GregorB (talk) 22:32, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • and Shaul Mofaz told Army Radio, protests in Israel can later potentially turn into a violent and painful, calling for army reserves mobilization *

^ Violent? Somebody has no idea what he's writing about. Mofaz refers to expected September stetehood declaration by Palestinians. He expect Palestinians to start violence, not housing protesters.

2011 Israel housing protests?

Might be a better title, just like 2011 Norway attacks and various others. - Cilibinarii (talk) 15:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

2011 Israeli housing protests? I agree, the current title is a little bit awkward. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1] 01:02, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I moved the page and went with your suggestion. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1] 19:56, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Israeli media is calling it the "Social Protests." We should change the name to thatEricl (talk) 13:27, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

pictures

hello , i took this pic from yesterday 150,000 ppl demonstration - in tel aviv : http://avivi.org/meowart/150000/avivi-aharon-d200-35mmf28-17.jpg feel free to use it in wiki, thanks! avivi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.173.87 (talk) 15:55, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We'd be happy to use your photos, but you must first release them under a compatible free content license, such as a Creative Commons license (allowing derivative work and commercial use). We generally can't use non-free images on Wikipedia. 16:29, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

no problems, i posted @ flickr under Creative Commons license http://www.flickr.com/photos/avivi/5994066817/ thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.177.212 (talk) 16:49, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll upload an put into the article. Thanks! Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1] 20:53, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually the license you released it under is non-compatible with the Wikicommons license policies. It either needs to be CC-BY, CC-BY-SA, or in the public domain. It would be great if you would re-release the photo under one of these licenses. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1] 21:05, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

oh sorry i changed it to the first option:

  • Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike Creative Commons
  • Attribution-NonCommercial Creative Commons
  • Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs Creative Commons
  • Attribution Creative Commons
  • Attribution-ShareAlike Creative Commons
  • Attribution-NoDerivs Creative Commons

hope it's ok now (or tell me which to choose if i'm wrong again:) thank you!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.177.212 (talk) 21:14, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It needs to be either:
  • Attribution Creative Commons
  • Attribution-ShareAlike Creative Commons

I would recommend the second one. :) Also the location where it was taken would be useful as a caption. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1] 22:10, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

done and done :) thanks again! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.177.212 (talk) 22:49, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It looks great. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1] 23:25, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

oh my! does look awesome! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.177.212 (talk) 23:42, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]


hello, new pics from yesterday demonstration tell me which u think are proper http://avivi.org/meowart/500000/index.html (and btw it was a half million demonstration ., and not only 320,000 ppl in tel-aviv.)

More picture from August 6th protest

Full album of photos from the protest last night in Tel Aviv https://plus.google.com/photos/112981749632314914467/albums/5638059251111271329 with translations and captions. Free for use -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 18:15, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

pictures and a video from August 6th demonstration in tel aviv

Hello, posted 4 pictures and a video for use @ wiki from the August 6th demonstration @ Tel aviv

thank you!

avivi

Proposed rename - 2011 Israeli protests

As I see it, these protests have developed beyond mere housing concerns. There have been people expressing discontent with Prime Minister Netanyahu and demanding early elections. [4] Master&Expert (Talk) 21:00, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree somewhat. There are actually two demands from the main organizers: that the government falls and that the current capitalism is changed to socialism. The housing protests is actually one wrapper for 'social justice'. --Shuki (talk) 20:37, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All the english language media over there are calling it the "Social Protests" and thus, so should we....Ericl (talk)

vote on top picture ?

any objections on changing the top picture to this one : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Israel_Housing_Protests_Tel_Aviv_August_6_2011b.jpg

(was biggest demonstration in israel so far)

--SadRobot (talk) 20:57, 14 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

social justice not housing protests

The article is well developed but the main 'social justice' theme is missing. The name of the article should be changed because the housing issue is just one and not the main issue of the various organizers and the hard-core protesters. --Shuki (talk) 20:36, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

While 'social justice' is a common demand at the protests, the 'Cost of Living' seems to be the general issue rather than only the housing aspect. The Hebrew article has since been renamed to Cost of Living protest. --Shuki (talk) 23:54, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

removing referenced critcism

Criticism of the 'protest' should be noted in this article and there is a lot of it that has simply not been added yet. The problematic background of the organizers is also missing, and this will also soon be added. I'll AGF, but one should also be reminded of WP:OWN. --Shuki (talk) 04:15, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is an encyclopedia and not a tabloid. Even if you dislike the protests organizers and even if you suspect their real intentions, you are still obligated to add only primary and reliable sources for all the claims you intend to direct against the protests organizers. We are certainly not allowed to add unconfirmed suspicions, taken from the "Opinions" sections in the tabloids, which were made by secondary sources. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 19:01, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
AGF dude. You are wrong. --Shuki (talk) 23:42, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please elaborate. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 02:03, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, Maariv is an OR and Yemini is a senior Israeli journalist. The claims are attributed to him and not in first-person WP. And this has nothing to do with me 'disliking' protest organizers (thank you for putting imaginary words in my mouth). It is unclear from this article who the real leadership of this protest is, and frankly not easy to find a journalist with guts to analyse that, and I did find one here, and added another critical one to the Leef article. We have three main leaders including; names of the 'protest founders' without any background context / political affiliations, there are local leaders at each tent compound, as well as the left-wing people and organizations that are doing most of the coordination and funding. The article (you) attributes to protest to Leef, yet it also talks about the left-wing group planning the protest two weeks prior. Anyway, there are lots of references, so I'm slowly adding them. --Shuki (talk) 00:05, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Shuki, your placing 'protest' in quotation marks indicates a pretty clear hostility. You should therefore in the spirit of neutrality, try to be more careful of injecting that hostility into your edits. And when Foreign Minister Lieberman and a large number of other prominent politicians are badmouthing the protest organizers on national media every day, it doesn't really take a journalist "with guts" to try and invent dirt about them. Rather, all it takes is a journalist who likes to please Lieberman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.35.180.192 (talk) 08:35, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Even if you believe that Shuki dislikes the protesters, here is not the place to discuss personal opinions. You should assume good faith and edit according to Wikipedia policy, as Shuki has done. —Ynhockey (Talk) 14:51, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I put protest within apostrophes since the word used most often in Hebrew is demonstration, but here 'protest' is more pervasive. I am actually thankful for the neutrality template. There is a lot more to this rolling event than meets the plain Hebrew article that Gnome diligently translated. The HE wikipedia is unfortunately not NPOV. I introduced a line for Boaz Gaon in his article sourced to a main interview in the prestigious Globes financial paper and it was twice removed with no edit comment felt necessary. The EN wikipedia is different from the HE one in that there are much more editors here obligating NPOV, while the HE one has a close knit group of admins who do not allow much spectrum of thoguht. --Shuki (talk) 17:42, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Editors Hostile to protests skewing related articles

There seems to be a pattern especially in the English-language articles, to distort and mis-represent the protests as a far-left plot to overthrow a government, with sinister figures behind the scenes playing the activists like puppets.

To put it mildly, this is a conspiracy theory promoted by the Israeli far right. There is zero evidence for this. So far this slander from the far-right is losing the battle over Israeli public opinion, big time. But they find it easier to distort reality here on Wikipedia. In the Hebrew site they blocked the introduction of a Daphni Leef entry for weeks. In the English site, the Daphni Leef entry called the protests "civil strife" (which means a domestic armed conflict) and used the term "inciting" to refer to them.

This particular entry about the protests in general, had a strange paragraph claiming that "events leading up" to the protests started with some weird speech (available on Youtube) that connects some advice Democratic pollster Stan Greenberg about how to revive the left. Needless to say, zero evidence that the protest organizers have ever even heard of this speech - which, frankly, does not seem so enlightening anyway.

I don't know how Wikipedia handles such concentrated attacks on the truth, but thought it would be a good idea to warn the editors. There's plenty of good, even first-hand information on these protests. Please make sure that entries are based on this information and not on distortions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.35.180.192 (talk) 06:57, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's not about being hostile, but rather not ignoring a blatant effort like in the move 'The Wave'. The sources I have used are from the Israeli media, in Hebrew. There actually are conspiracy theories involving a worldwide effort 'to take the square' and another one with the CIA blackmailing Abrams and in general funding foreign protests, but I have not inserted that at all. Besides, the revelations are sourced and undeniable, and more will be inserted as they are revealed. With regard to your comment about 'civil strife', that is called POV or OR if not in the source. I think that modification to Daphne's article is valid, but removing complete sourced sections is not. And the speech you refer to on youtube is by Boaz Gaon, one of the heads of the protests - and sourced to two Israeli newspaper articles. Since you are active on the Hebrew WP, I suggest you log in with your userid here as well. --Shuki (talk) 07:08, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, even if a right-wing journalist raised a theory about this connection in Ma'ariv, it is still a conspiracy theory. Some talk recorded on Youtube in April, even if it was made by someone related to the protests, should *not* open the section on "Events leading up to the protests". It was not an event on the direct line leading up to the protest. If you want, you can open a different section or add it to the section discussing controversies. But it is not part of the events leading up to the protests. And btw, I don't have a Hebrew user id. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.35.180.192 (talk) 08:16, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi dude! Kalman Liebskind wrote a bold claim. It's not proof. I know Hebrew perfectly well (as an Israeli). His article should be placed in the "Criticism" section, and removed from the introduction. Also, as he did not prove anything, it should be written that he claims whatever he says - not that he proves it or that he made any kind of exposure. I would love if a registered wikipedian moved it, because I'm not one now, but just a person who can't see every commentator's claims quoted as truth (let alone when there is no English version - this is the English Wiki, after all). -Haggai — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.132.220.191 (talk) 20:40, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wanted to add: just read the Globes interview with Boaz Gaon. He is definitely *not* one of the protest organizer. He is a sympathizer who started visiting the tents in July once they started, and offered his help. Maybe they took some of his help and maybe not, but certainly that April Youtube talk he made has nothing to do with the organization of the start of the protests. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.35.180.192 (talk) 08:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anonymous, do you have sources to back up your claims? (If impartiality of the sources themselves are important to you, even though it's not mandated by policy, I expect you to have impartial sources supporting your claims). So far you have removed (more than once) a fully sourced paragraph written in a 100% neutral manner, providing just the facts without any interpretation. —Ynhockey (Talk) 14:55, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I removed it yesterday, I'm not sure it's this guy (I started writing an explanation, but my tablet cut it off suddenly). I think because there are no English sources, this should not be in such a prominent space - because the average reader can't read and see that there are no facts to support Liebskind's claims. I don't think we need to disprove a claim that wasn't proven in the first place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.132.220.191 (talk) 20:46, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why was this correction deleted? The source clearly shows that the "Greenberg conspiracy" Libeskind fantasizes about is completely ridiculous: If you were conspiring with a foreign politician to overthrow the government, would you write 5 feet of text about it in Haaretz, one of the country's largest dailies? Libeskind takes a public meeting of a round table Gaon himself wrote about in Haaretz and claims some connection to protests in which Gaon is not involved in any meaningful way. If you want Libeskind's rubbish in the article, then only as what it is: An obviously false conspiracy theory. I'd pretty much prefer simply keeping it out, as it obviously has no connection to the topic of this article. -- 92.206.226.112 (talk) 08:21, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Panoramic view

An editor has added a "panoramic view" of the protest, but it doesn't seem like it's a panoramic view at all, or even a real view. I think we should either state clearly that it's a photomontage, or remove the image altogether. Just for the record, I am not at all blaming the editor who put the image there—it is likely that he did not see that it was a montage. —Ynhockey (Talk) 14:56, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Should not be enlightened (put in the abstract) like it is. I move it down. Yug (talk) 20:08, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative leadership

I am wondering where a section about this would go. It is not right to put it in the criticism section because that is for external people/entities. The following text is not what I want to insert but merely background.

Since the beginning two leaderships of the protest. The main antagonists who have been in the media limelight, and the anonymous people who have been sleeping in the tent camps around the country and and often frustrated with the other 'media' leaders who seem to be grabbing attention but not talking about their plight and causes. To name a few incidents, the students did not show up to the press conference last week, The day after the 'million man march', Dafni was cursed when she showed up to the Holon camp and a fight ensued but later calmed. [5] [6] and in the Maariv weekend edition, one of the founders of the protest and hunger strikers, Adam Dovz'insky, revealed much internal strife within the leadership and the rich media leaders were disconnected to the needy people in the tents who had the cost of living issues.

Another set of antagonists are the anarchists who have been very visible over the past couple of months, but not too notable. Eldad remarks from discussions with army officers of the drastic drop in incidents involving anarchists during the summer and the officers anticipating their return to the separation fence clashes [7]. --Shuki (talk) 21:08, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • This is a clip Eldad Yaniv of the National Left talking relaxed in the TV studio about the protests being apolitical, but after is a pep-talk at the tents where he talks about piggish capitalism and the occupation, how the protest is political, and now about housing and cottage cheese but 'living normally without being occupiers'. [8] This is not a conspiracy because the organizers are openly saying what they are aiming for, but the people in the tents 'alternative leadership' actually still feel that they are protesting the cost of living. --Shuki (talk) 05:27, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2011_Israeli_social_justice_protests&oldid=448551799"