Talk:Bobby Fischer

Anti-Semitic?

Are you people serious? He was anti-himself? I mean really are you fucking kidding us? The next time I disagree with the Chinese Government/state I suppose that I'll be anti-Chinese.

The 1972 World Championship Match

It says:

"Fischer would likely have forfeited the entire match, but Spassky, not wanting to win by default, yielded to Fischer's demands to move the next game to a back room, away from the cameras whose presence had upset Fischer.[197][198] The rest of the match proceeded without serious incident. "

This is potentially deceptive. They played the third game in an isolated room, but went back to the stage for the remainder of the match. Someone who reads this as it stands may conclude that "the rest of the match proceeded" via the back room! WHPratt (talk) 14:46, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

You're right. Why not be bold and change it:)--Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:38, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Seeing no further comment in this discussion, I just changed it. Please check and refine as necessary. --Pawnbroker (talk) 20:03, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Number one in lead

I felt there was too much emphasis placed on the no.1 rating in the first paragraph. Official ratings were only introduced in 1971, a year before Fischer retired, and don't know if back then they got the attention that they do now. His 54 months at no.1 was mentioned before we even found out what his nationality was. It didn't comply with WP:LEAD either, as none of it was mentioned in the main body of the article. I also don't think we need to have Kasparov, Karpov and even Magnus Carlsen mentioned in the opening paragraph. Let's keep the focus on Fischer.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:33, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

His position on the rating list, and the fact that his July 1972 rating of 2785 remained the highest ever until finally surpassed by Kasparov in the 1980s, definitely deserves a mention somewhere, but should it be in a separate "rating" section, or just contained within the Road to the Championship section?--Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:39, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Citizenship?

Quote from the article: "After Iceland granted him citizenship, the Japanese authorities released him to that country, where he lived until his death in 2008." This is correctly quoted from a Gruadian source, but I'm not sure it's correct. According to this photo (released by Reuters, unlikely to be photoshopped), on 22 February 2005, Iceland gave him an "alien passport" that says he was "stateless". He may have been granted full citizenship later, but even in this case the quoted sentence would be incorrect. Jimmy Fleischer (talk) 17:14, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I think the statement is correct. BBC News, amongst other sources, explains "MPs in Iceland voted [in February 2005] against granting Mr Fischer citizenship, offering him instead a special foreigners' passport and rights to residence... Japan, however, refused to release the chess champion on such grounds." The Japanese only released Fischer once Iceland had voted him full citizenship on March 21, 2005. See also this earlier article which has another pic of his "alien passport". Ewen (talk) 18:34, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, interesting. In this case, the picture of his wife (?) happily presenting the alien passport must have been taken in the time between it was issued and the time Japan declared it would not release him on this basis. Maybe this should be inserted into the article. Jimmy Fleischer (talk) 11:46, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

His mother was really Jewish?

There are no documents whatsoever to attest that his mother was Jewish. All these press claims that his mother was Jewish all go back to a single 1962 interview of Fischer by Ralph Ginzburg, where Ginzburg claimed that Bobby privately told him that his mother was a Jew. We only have Ginsburg's word, nothing else. And Bobby always otherwise publicly insisted that he had no Jewish ancestry. It should be added to the article some of Bobby's repeated vehement denials that he had any Jewish ancestry whatsoever. 173.169.90.98 (talk) 12:13, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Despite news articles claiming Bobby Fischer's mother was Jewish, Fischer always denied he had Jewish ancestry even writing a letter to the Encyclopedia Judaica insisting that they remove his name. 173.169.90.98 (talk) 03:07, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. The references to his having Jewish ancestry are compelling.BashBrannigan (talk) 22:00, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

The Forward writes that his ethnic heritage is a matter of dispute, see: http://www.forward.com/articles/5039/ 173.169.90.98 (talk) 22:49, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

You've taken it out of context. The thrust of the article is that Fischer was Jewish. When the article says it's "a matter of dispute" is was refering to Fischer own belief. When you used it out of context it implied a wide-spread belief. BashBrannigan (talk) 00:43, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

There is an important difference between ethnicity/race/genetics/ancestry and religion. The only quote I have seen from his letter to the Encyclopedia Judaica (as quoted on the The Jewish Daily Forward web site at the link above) refers to whether or not he followed the practices and belief system of the Jewish religion. The quote in the article does not discuss his ancestry. The article says that the letter explained that "he was not circumcised". Circumcision is not genetic. The quote says that he objected to the use of his name "to try to promote your religion". That is not a statement about ethnic heritage. Unless someone can show that some part of that letter denies having Jewish ethnic ancestry, there is no reason to interpret that letter as a denial of Jewish ancestry. —Pawnbroker (talk) 01:00, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Now the question is, what is a jew ? Maybe Bobby's mother was a convert to Judaism. Maybe she was not ethnically a jew. Maybe Ginzburg just made it up. We are playing with words here. The fact remains that Bobby vehemently insisted he was not a Jew and that belongs in the article. 173.169.90.98 (talk) 04:10, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't disagree with that last remark, and I have not reverted your last edit (although I did refine it somewhat). I do disagree with the idea that there is no important difference between genetics and religion. —Pawnbroker (talk) 04:45, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Fischer himself said that his mother was Jewish (sorry I don't have a reference). Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 05:55, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Bobby never said his mother was a Jew, apart from Ginzburg's claim, and that belongs in Wikipedia's article. Ginzburg claimed that Bobby said it, and Ginzburg could have just made it up, and I think he did, to vex Bobby. Ginzburg claimed it in an article in 1962. Also, there is no evidence that Fischer's mother was even a Jew, apart from Ginzburg's claims, and that also belongs in Wikipedia's article. 173.169.90.98 (talk) 12:43, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

The L.A. Times article "Chasing the king of chess" by Peter Nicholas, September 21, 2009, seems to refute that (http://articles.latimes.com/2009/sep/21/nation/na-bobby-fischer21). Nicholas and his wife Clea Benson filed Freedom of Information Act requests, reviewed extensive FBI material obtained from those, conducted many interviews, and did other extensive research. Nicholas reported as fact that Fischer's mother was Jewish and said that "She would often turn to Jewish social service agencies for advice and financial aid". It seems clear that Nicholas did not rely on Ginzburg alone to reach that conclusion. The article also provides a lot of information about the identity of Fischer's father — strongly indicating that it was Nemenyi. Perhaps Ginzburg was the only one to claim that Fischer acknowledged it, but it seems to be well established by a reliable source that his mother was Jewish (and I haven't noticed any reports that anyone ever really claimed otherwise — at least as a matter of ethnicity, if not religion). —Pawnbroker (talk) 21:29, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

If true that "She would often turn to Jewish social service agencies for advice and financial aid" it does not necessarily prove she was Jewish. She could have been Catholic. And which "Jewish agencies" and when ? Sounds like a rumor. 173.169.90.98 (talk) 03:40, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

This comes up at regular intervals, sometimes as a question by a well-meaning individual and other times as a challenge by an obvious troll. It's probably tempting to just give up and remove any mention of Fischer's Jewish ethnicity just to avoid the endless argument, but I think you can't cave in to pressure applied by drive-by editors who harp on only a single note. See Talk:Bobby Fischer/Archive 1#Fischer Jewish?, Talk:Bobby Fischer/Archive 2#"Jewish Chessplayers" cat., Talk:Bobby Fischer/Archive 3#Evidence for Fischer's Jewish Heritage?, and Talk:Bobby Fischer/Archive 4#Jewish for some of the earlier examples. I can't speak for everyone, but as someone who has watched this article for several years, I find this tedious. Fischer's Jewish ethnicity is well supported by reliable sources. Quale (talk) 22:29, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Wait a minute. Your "reliable sources" are all simply repeating Ginzburg's claim that Bobby had once said it. And Bobby should know better than anyone if he were Jewish and he repeatedly insisted he was not. 173.169.90.98 (talk) 03:40, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

That is not true, and you are simply not paying attention. See what Pawnbroker wrote immediately above about Nicholas. The links I provided to old discussions talk a bit about what Brady wrote about this and also include some interesting things that editors found in old US census records and Ellis Island immigration records. Edmonds and Eidenow is one of several other sources. Even the Daily Forward article you cited does not contradict Fischer's widely reported Jewish ethnicity. Quale (talk) 04:16, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Nicolas and all the old links you provide are all just repeating Ginzburg's 1962 claim, which Ginzburg probably just made up, to vex Bobby. The same way Hitler's lawyer made it all up at Nurenburg that Hitler was Jewish, which he said just to vex certain people. Fact is, there is no proof Hitler nor Fischer's mother were Jews.173.169.90.98 (talk) 04:43, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

His Father was really Hans-Gerhardt Fischer, a German biophysicist?

Reported By Ashley Fantz, CNN July 6, 2010 11:43 p.m. EDT:"FBI documents, according to the Los Angeles Times story, suggest Bobby Fischer's real father was Paul Felix Nemenyi, a Jewish Hungarian physicist, the journalists found. Regina got pregnant with Bobby when Gerhardt was out of the country, the documents showed. And Regina was studying in Colorado the same time Nemenyi was teaching there, though at a different school."Tomandzeke (talk) 04:21, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like tabloid reporting. No proof for it. 173.169.90.98 (talk) 11:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

The "Early years" section of the article addresses these allegations - which seem pretty convincing to me. Krakatoa (talk) 15:43, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

ReginaFischer.jpg

I could not find in the article any explanation of the photo of Regina Fischer demonstrating in front of the White House. The sign seems to say "Ike says YES. The American Chess Federation says NO...". (The rest is illegible to me.) Does anyone know what the question was? If so, I think it should be in the article, or at least in the photo caption. Peter Chastain (talk) 00:46, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

See page 3 of the Philadelphia Inquirer story "Life is not a board game" by Peter Nicholas and Clea Benson, Sun, Feb. 9, 2003 (http://www.philly.com/inquirer/news/13891951.html?page=3&c=y). Quote: "There may have been friction, but there was also love. The same year Regina moved out, she went to Washington on a mission. Outside the wrought-iron gates of the White House, she staged a solitary five-hour protest, urging President Dwight D. Eisenhower to help send a U.S team to the chess olympics in East Germany." —Pawnbroker (talk) 04:10, 9 July 2010 (UTC)