Talk:David Miscavige

The Rundown Truth: Scientology Changes Strategy in War with Media

• Urban, Hugh B. (March 17, 2010). "The Rundown Truth: Scientology Changes Strategy in War with Media". Religion Dispatches. www.religiondispatches.org. Retrieved 2010-03-18.

Hugh B. Urban is a professor of religious studies at Ohio State University. This article is a good source of info on multiple topics. -- Cirt (talk) 19:27, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Scientology: A History of Violence

See postings at news.turner.com and www.newsonnews.net/cnn

In a special series beginning Monday, March 29th, CNN’s Anderson Cooper 360° takes a close and revealing look at the leadership of the worldwide church of Scientology. The week-long series, Scientology: A History of Violence, will examine allegations that Scientology leader David Miscavige has for years beaten, kicked and choked top members of the church. These are allegations the church aggressively denies, saying violence from inside came from those making the claim.

This series on the CNN program Anderson Cooper 360 starting March 29, 2010 will have a good deal of WP:RS source material. Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 15:33, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Update, a post from Mr. Anderson Cooper, see [1]. -- Cirt (talk) 17:10, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Removal of sources, and addition of unsourced material

[2] = this edit removed sources, and added unsourced material. Let's avoid this behavior please, especially on a WP:BLP page, and especially one within this topic area. -- Cirt (talk) 03:40, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Gee, thanks for all of your help. BTfromLA (talk) 04:54, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Please make sure to back up newly added info to independent reliable secondary sources, using citations. -- Cirt (talk) 04:56, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

What do you consider adequate verification for the existence of the Anderson Cooper series about Miscavige and the specifics about it that I cited? News articles that tout that he will be doing the series? Cooper's own CNN blog posts about the series? Videos of the series on youtube or on the CNN website? I'm not sure whether any third party articles in reputable publications have described each installment of his series in detail, but I should think there's some way to treat material produced by a reputable broadcast news source as equivalent to a print article. As to my removal of sourced material, do you really think that any sensationalistic lawsuit that is brought against someone is suitable for inclusion in an article about them? Though "sourced," that one struck me as below the threshold of responsible editing, particularly, as you say, in this fraught topic area. (If lawsuits are to brought up, they should probably be treated as a group, and more fairly characterized: Miscavige is being accused of human trafficking, not "slavery": those are close, but not identical.) BTfromLA (talk) 05:17, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you could suggest some sources, and we could go from there. As far as your removal of sourced material, perhaps you could put forth on the talk page the sources you feel you wish to remove from the article, and this could also be discussed. -- Cirt (talk) 05:23, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

I think I just did put forward the info I wanted to remove and why. It isn't the source I want to remove, it's the content: somebody files a lawsuit saying Miscavige is guilty of slavery. And I did outline the types of sources that are avaialble for the Anderson Cooper thing, why not answer my question? BTfromLA (talk) 05:27, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

The sources (multiple sources) you removed were WP:RS, and should be discussed as to why they were removed with no discussion. The info you added was unsourced, and we should discuss individual specifc suggested sources, not vague ideas of possible sources. -- Cirt (talk) 10:54, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Cirt, I find your manner here patronizing, hostile and a violation of WP:OWN. I an not inclined to waste my time wrangling with an uncooperative collaborator, so you win: I will make no further attempts to improve the article. BTfromLA (talk) 16:17, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

All I am asking is that we discuss individual sources, one-at-a-time. And also not add unsourced material to a WP:BLP page. -- Cirt (talk) 16:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

You did a wholesale revert of my edit as if it were vandalism. You addressed me as if I were a naughty child. You refused to engage my attempts to address your issues, instead issuing patronizing directives about the form in which I must present my questions before you will deign to consider them. You really need to consider your manners and your tone: if this is typical of you, it makes for poorer articles and a dismal environment in which to collaborate. --BTfromLA (talk) 16:39, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, the edit removed sourced material, and simultaneously added uncited material - to a WP:BLP page. That is indeed quite inappropriate. -- Cirt (talk) 16:41, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying... I'm not talking about sources, I'm talking about rudeness. Sigh. BTfromLA (talk) 16:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Let us focus on a discussion of content and sources, and avoid discussion of individual contributors please. -- Cirt (talk) 16:56, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

No mention of Anderson Cooper reports or wife?

How come there is no mention of the week-long AC360 reports? It was covered by the Associated Press[3] and many other articles.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13] [14][15] Even the St Petersburg Times discussed the AC report.

Also why is there no discussion of his wife Michelle Miscavige? She was mentioned in articles such as "IRS examined Scientology dollars, not dogma" (St. Petersburg Times; Oct 24, 1993), "Scientologists Report Assets of $400 Million"(New York Times), "Diana author names Tom Cruise as 'World Number Two in Scientology'" ("Naturally the work was regularly inspected by David and Shelley Miscavige [his wife], who would ride over to the site on his motorbike" in Daily Mail - Jan 7, 2008), "Growth of Scientology gets big boost from Cruise" ("Shelly Britt, who joined Scientology at 17, said she was at the base for 20" in San Francisco Chronicle - Dec 25, 2005), and "Scientology's Record on Human Rights" (newsblaze.com Mar 2, 2007). —Preceding unsigned comment added by BlacjinDH (talk • contribs) 21:56, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

My attempt to add a description of this was unceremoniously reverted for lack of proper sourcing. You might wanty to look back at my edit, add a couple of your sources if they cover that material, and see whether you have better luck than I did adding this important story to the article. --BTfromLA (talk) 00:43, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

BlacjinDH (talk · contribs) has helpfully suggested some good independent reliable secondary sources. Thank you very much for doing that, and recommending them here on the talk page. This was a most constructive course of action. -- Cirt (talk) 04:22, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Under "Allegations of abuse" a few sentences about the AC360 and the church's response should be added. His wife's name and other details cited above should be added to "Personal life." —Preceding unsigned comment added by BlacjinDH (talk • contribs) 15:31, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Very good suggestions, agreed. -- Cirt (talk) 17:25, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I tried to add some wording in but the artikle is locked. This what i tried to include from the above sources:

In March 2010, Marty Rathbun, Jeff Hawkins, Tom DeVocht and Amy Scobee again confirmed allegations of abuse by Miscavige to CNN's Anderson Cooper on AC360. The allegations were also reported Associated Press, The New York Times, ABC's Nightline, NBC's Today and other outlets.

and

Miscavige is married to Michele "Shelley" Miscavige. According to IRS documents made public in 1993, David earned $62,683 and his wife was paid $31,359 as his assistant by the Church of Scientology in 1991.

Tom Cruise confessional files

Added new subsection, [16]. -- Cirt (talk) 14:00, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The entire subsection was removed, by Wobblegenerator (talk · contribs). Thoughts? -- Cirt (talk) 01:35, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

It should say that this is a rumor. At least in biographies involving celebrities, right? I'll look a little deeper. Wobblegenerator (talk) 20:04, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Here is what I understand as appropriate per the guidelines on biographies:

"Biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives, and the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to BLPs, including any living person mentioned in a BLP even if not the subject of the article, and to material about living persons on other pages.[3] The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia rests with the person who adds or restores material." (WP:BLP).

The use of several tabloids with the exact same content in different languages does not change this. The same guideline refers to a resolution of the Wikimedia Foundation that clearly notes:

"People sometimes make edits designed to smear others. This is difficult to identify and counteract, particularly if the malicious editor is persistent."[[17]]

I hope this is not the case here but it is obvious that that none of these articles (if my Google translation does not fail me) says anything else than that this is a rumor or accusation by a former member of the church of scientology who is still making "a career" with scientology methods now, the very same ones he criticizes in his blog[18]. This is not made clear at all and I don't understand why this would be left out.

In all, I think the above rule for biographies was seriously violated with the addition of those paragraphs. I propose to change it to the following text as part of the Allegations of Abuse section:

"According to an anonymous former member of the Church of Scientology revealed in a blog statement in May 2010 by former scientologist Mark Rathbun who served as Inspector General of the Religious Technology Center from 1978 to 2004, Miscavige ordered that Tom Cruise's Auditing sessions be secretly videotaped."

The sources for this should not be blogs or tabloids, for example this [19] seems sufficient.

Thoughts? Wobblegenerator (talk) 20:34, 16 May 2010 (UTC)