Talk:Israel

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Israel and the Occupied Territories Jerusalem as capital

State terrorism

A paragraph should be included about the practice of state terrorism against the Palestinian population. that's something inherent to the Jewish state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.36.23.175 (talk) 22:24, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia works with a neutral point of view. 68.160.14.60 (talk)

A neutral point of view does not preclude a discussion of state terrorism. Recall that the terrorist groups Lehi, Hagannah and Irgun are the very first terrorist groups to act in palestine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.68.162.194 (talk) 04:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Very arrogant not simply to take the point that you have a point of view. Since many oppose that point of view it is clearly such and thus not neutral. A line could mention "[prominent and authoritative source] has stated that Israel's method of warfare is illegal, describing it as "state terrorism"." If you have a good source and somewhere to put it you could try that. In all likelihood someone would then want to post opposing sources and the whole paragraph would eventually be deleted or incorporated into an article on criticisms of Israel and linked from this article. Hope that helps. --91.110.31.237 (talk) 13:08, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

"Since many oppose that point of view it is clearly such and thus not neutral" - there are many standing on the other side too, does that mean we can't include any information at all? I believe there are plenty of good sources of Israels actions being labeled as state terrorism, from alternative media in the US, and mainstream media from other countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.134.252.146 (talk) 10:21, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the person who raised this issue. Despite the claim of "neutrality," this article has a definite pro-Israel bias. It's as if terrorism doesn't exist here. Nor is there any respect for the Palestinian point of view. How about the Apartheid Wall? I find the responder extremely arrogant and off-putting. Disregarding the role Israel has played in causing world-wide terrorism and fundamentalist religious extremism is to ignore the elephant in the room. Finally, there is no such thing as a "casus bellum." That translates as "accident war." I think you might have been aiming for "causa belli." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.106.195.150 (talk) 04:55, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

State terrorism, including a discussion of referenced allegations of state terrorism by Israel is discused here: State Terrorism --ShumDavar (talk) 19:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Claiming that terrorism against the Palestinians is inherent to the Jewish state, is an inflammatory posting which should be deleted from this discussion page by the author. --ShumDavar (talk) 19:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it should be removed at all, contributors have a right to raise issues, even if they are contentious, and the question of whether Israel has practiced state terrorism is moot one, Israel has certainly used terroristic methods in the past (and which state, in all honesty hasn't used such methods). There is no doubt that Israel has been consistent in its use of armed methods when dealing with the question of Palestinian former residents of its territory now living in close proximity to its borders. This has been such a feature that it might be right to open the question of whether or not the state has institutionalised 'terrorism' (or perhaps a better term would be 'armed repression' or 'armed suppression') as a means of dealing with Palestinian refugees from the territory which is now part of Israel proper. I would agree that 'terrorism' is an emotive term and perhaps one best avoided (but then again I would also with to avoid its use in regard to Hammas which I find to be a very unsavory group but would say that they have used 'terroristic methods' rather than say they are all terrorists - after all the Hagannah used similar methods to Hamas, excluding suicide bombings, and the Irgun used mass-murder and ethnic cleansing as weapons of war - and its members received a campaign ribbon from the IDF in later years despite being terrorists who tried to import arms and bring off a possible coup d'etat against Israel).EoinBach (talk) 02:51, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The terroristic methods you attribute to Israel occurred before the country was created. I am not dismissing the acts of Haganah and Irgun (specifically Irgun because their attacks led to innocent civilian deaths). However, I would argue that Haganah was formed to defend its citizens from arab riots and aggression. Hamas is an offensive militia that targets innocent civilians without regret or remorse. Irgun was condemned by jewish organizations and groups for killing innocent civilians. Hamas is endorsed and praised by its people and other countries when they attack. Both sides have used "terroristic methods" but I think the goals and purpose were quite different. Avinyc (talk) 17:53, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Neutral does not equal uncontroversial. Facts are facts. Technically speaking, the US and Israel are guilty of terrorism, by most concrete definitions of the word, in recent history. Perhaps that should be said, though I understand that to say so would be taboo.

If you're going to mention the illegal conduct of Israel then you have to mention Palestinian terror such as the countless suicide bombings or rockets fired into the Negev. "Disregarding the role Israel has played in causing world-wide terrorism and fundamentalist religious extremism"-- how can you even begin to comment on Israel's role in worldwide fundamentalist religious extremism when 60% of the Jews are secular and the state is predominantly secular. Gaza is the strip controlled by Hamas, who openly calls in its charter to throw the Jewish Israelis into the Mediterranean and establish one Palestinian state ruled by Islamic law. This just exemplifies the point that you know nothing about this topic excluding biased propaganda. Worldwide terrorism and fundamentalist religious extremism is spread by organizations like Hamas and Al Qaeda. Please do not post again until you educate yourself on both sides of the matter of this complex issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.31.120 (talk) 14:40, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Surely there should be more mention of the Palestinian conflict in the lead?

The only mention,, virtually, is "efforts for a long-lasting peace with the Palestinians have so far been unsuccessful." A bit of an understatement as well.

The issue defines Israel in the international community. In fact, in English speaking countries (which this encyclopedia caters for) this is the main point of interest about the country of Israel.Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 21:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

And while we're at it, let's mention Natalie Portman and felafel in the lede, since they're also a main point of interest about the country. Boring details like location and population can wait.Jalapenos do exist (talk) 20:57, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm extremely sorry, but as far as I know Jerusalem is NOT the capital of Israel, although it is the largest and culturally the most significant city of the country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.250.225.205 (talk) 19:47, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Then you do not know the definition of capital. The capital is the country's seat of government. Israel designated Jerusalem as capital, and its parliament, government offices, supreme court, etc. are located there. Thus, it is the capital. okedem (talk) 20:04, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

It is not a capital. Officially the capital of Israel is Tel Aviv. The BBCV made the same mistake in 2007 and then had to apologize. I think you should reconsider your decision. If Tel Aviv does not match your definition, it is not the Israeli state that is at fault. So when it has designated Jerusalem? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.250.225.205 (talk) 14:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Please see the archives on this subject; it has been discussed ad infinitum. The editors have decided to leave Jerusalem as the listed capital in the article with a footnote explaining why. Thank you Goalie1998 (talk) 05:47, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Biassed through omission

Since there are heavy emotions involved it may be hard to remain neutral. But surely it is possible to not completely ignore all the bloodshed and report this in a matter of fact way. This is probably a bit awkward, but I agree that Wikipedia does well to remain neutral; There are enough non-neutral sources around. You don't need to discuss whether the bloodshed (either side of the conflict) is justified (I believe it neither is), but you can still describe the vicious cycle of retaliatory action. It requires insight and leadership to overcome this cycle of violence. It also requires the world to be well informed, since we cannot wait for the 'chosen leaders' to choose to transcend from their long history violence at their own pace.

Right now I feel that this article is very non-neutral by omitting important information on the actions of Israel. Regardless of what people may think of them, it would be 'neutralizing' to at least list them. I'd say both sides have to agree with the facts. Whenever I hear of body counts of both sides, I hear vastly larger numbers of Palistinians than from Israel. This objective information helps me form my own opinion about whether there is anything at all legitimate about what's happening in this conflict. Why am I not seeing any of this information? If you feel that it would spur heavy debates, don't think that this is because it's not neutral. Being confronted with facts historically has caused enough riots, bans, etc. That doesn't mean that we should be ignorant! (slightly off-topic) If so we should still consider the world as being flat. Okay, Friedman tells us this is not far from the truth anymore. (/off-topic)

-- EdB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.147.200.8 (talk) 00:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Robot Reverts?

It seems that there is some automatic robot that reverts this article to the official Zionist line within seconds of any edits. Funny. Fourtildas (talk) 06:27, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I have a suggestion to everyone who edits this article - think how you'd write an article about France, Greece, Turkey, or Tunisia. The article about Israel is not exceptional, it should have the same format and the same wording. DrorK (talk) 08:50, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

People keep mentioning the "official Zionist line". I'm curious: what is it? Is there a website where it's published and updated? What are it's main contentions? Can we avoid it by sticking to the format used by Encyclopedia Britannica, World Book Encyclopedia and so on, or are they also mouthpieces for the official Zionist line? Jalapenos do exist (talk) 09:14, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Disputed Territories

The section of the article currently titled Occupied Territories is a biased POV. Edits should be made to change it back to the original titled Disputed Territories or include both labels. The west bank, golan heights, and Jerusalem have been annexed by Israel and their status under international law conflicts with Israel's position. The Gaza strip, as of the 2005 disengagement is separately disputed because of a continuing blockade and the current conflict with Hamas. Comments or suggestive remarks only please, plenty of other sections to continue pro and anti-Israel banter thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.22.13 (talk) 14:31, 25 February 2009 (UTC) (I've created an account so that I can be identified in discussions. Avinyc (talk) 17:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I actually agree with you there. The term "occupied territories" has been bugging me for a while now, but I'd like to see if we can get a few more opinions on this before any changes are made. Tad Lincoln (talk) 21:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

The West Bank was never annexed by Israel save the territory known as East Jerusalem (which includes more than the eastern quarters of Jerusalem). Actually if we want to be very precise, Israel didn't officially annex East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, but enacted its "Law, jurisdiction and administration" on these territories. In practice, it is more or less equivalent to annexation. The West Bank, or at least those parts of it which are under direct Israeli control, can be said to be occupied, but East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are not under occupation administration. They are occupied only in the sense that Syria or the Palestinian Authority believe they should return to their control. DrorK (talk) 12:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

"Occupied" is the term used by the UNSC, the ICRC, the ICJ etc. It is also the name of the WIkipedia article on the subject. "Disputed" is much more a POV term used by only one party.--Peter cohen (talk) 18:05, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

All of the organizations you mentioned are political or semi-political. They are not obligated to descriptive terminology. In the view of these organizations, there is no country called Taiwan, the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus does not exist and Somalia is one single country. We all know that this is not true in practice. DrorK (talk) 22:55, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Drork, just want to make sure I understand what your saying. Are you for or against changing the title of the section to "Disputed Territories"? Tad Lincoln (talk) 00:33, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm in favor of describing the actual situation in these territories. If we have to refer to all of them in one general term, then "disputed territories" is better, but we have to explain the difference between the West Bank which is (at least in many parts of it) under occupation administration (with all the inconveniences resulting from this situation), and East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights which were captured in war, but are administered today as part of Israel. The fact that these territories are defined as "occupied" in many international forums is interesting, but not too informative. If we follow these forums' terminology we might think that Beijing has control over Taiwan, and that Cyprus or Somalia are united countries. DrorK (talk) 07:37, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok, sounds good. I certainly agree that it is a complicated situation (several complicated situations, actually), that needs to be explained. So, the name of the section should be changed, but in conjunction with changes to the section itself. The question is: how to explain the situation without thoroughly confusing readers? Tad Lincoln (talk) 07:51, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Occupied is probably the most accurate term for the section title, as well as being more informative, factual and widely used internationally. I admit that it might not be politically correct in the NPOV Wiki-world, but since these specific territories occur in the geography of this particular (Israel) article, I think this internationally accepted factual term is more appropriate. There is no dispute that the land is disputed, and no dispute that certain specific factions prefer to use the term 'disputed'. 'Disputed' is also seen by many others as POV'ly euphemistic. I believe this section is the perfect place to discuss this specifically, but not in the title. I also note a distinction is made above between 'occupied' and 'not under [military] occupation administration'. This also seems somewhat an internal fine point, since those specific distinctions (Jerusalem Law and Golan Heights Law) are not internationally recognized either. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 09:01, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

A)I don't think you can say, providing a number of sources, which term is more widely used internationally. As has already been mentioned in this discussion, just because some international organizations use the term "occupied" does not mean that that is the correct term in widespread use, or for use in this article. B) I have a very difficult time understanding half of what you are saying about they're being no dispute that something is disputed. If there's no dispute that it's disputed, than clearly "disputed" is the correct term to use in the name of the section. Perhaps you should be a little more clear with what you are trying to say. Tad Lincoln (talk) 09:32, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Just quickly, try UN242, UN338, UN478 and UN497[1], I guess that is OK for the UN. For a specific US ref, try [this; other countries have similar refs. You should look at mainstream media in the various countries and at the various times these occurred; they are occupied. I will also note however, that it is only more recent mainstream usages, especially in the US, that have started to use the term 'disputed'. This is largely due to impact of junkyard dog watch-dogging, and political correctness, according to my refs. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 11:02, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't see how a popular term is deemed accurate. It is impossible to compare Israel to any other country in history because the Gaza strip and West bank are not territories of a sovereign state before, during, and after the wars. The Golan Heights are also in dispute not just because of Israel's annexation, but even Syria and Lebanon dispute who controlled it prior to the war with Israel. CasualObserver, I don't see the term being internationally accepted as it once was in the beginning. We don't need to argue that terms can be discovered to be offensive or incorrect but still widely used out of ignorance. The territories here are in dispute as to legal ownership, control, and their future status. UN resolutions are more political than factual which is probably why few of them are actually respected in recent years. Avinyc (talk) 16:42, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Googling for "occupied territories"+ Israel and "disputed territories"+Israel shows a more than 20-1 balance in favour of the former with the likes of the US Department fo State using it in document titles [2]. WIkipedia is an encyclopedia and using onscure terms instead of the widely recognised ones does nto help this promary purpose of this website.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:02, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Again, you are trying to link something popular with accuracy. The term occupied carries a legal inference when truthfully the territories are disputed. Something widely recognized does not make it true, and the primary purpose of fact-based website is to stick to the facts [3]. Avinyc (talk) 01:23, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Avinyc, but I think the "factual", "disputed" and "accuracy" approach is problematic in this context. In factual and accurate terms in contrast to "legal" and "widely recogniced" definitions, the State of Israel is "disputed", since some elements do not recongice it. Thus it would be "accurate" and "factual" to use the term "disputed" in context of Israeli regions more broadly, which is much more than questionable. Where do we draw the line in "disputed", "factual" and "accuracy"? In other words, legal definition and widely recogniced concepts might be the best way to describe the situations. (Anonym; sorry again, I know its not a good way to discuss issues anonymously; I'll try pick up a user name asap)

The fact that this conversation is even taking place is proof that the territories should be called 'disputed'. Today most of the original territories occupied by Israel in 1967 are no longer occupied, and even if you only focus on the West Bank and Golan Heights, there are still areas which are not occupied. It's a very complicated matter and the best way to deal with it is use a 100% neutral term, which is 'disputed'. I think we can all agree that the territories in question are disputed. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 09:40, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Ynhockey, we can all agree that there many conversations taking place here and around the world objecting to calling Jerusalem Israel's capital. Would it be neutral to say "capital (disputed)" in the infobox? RomaC (talk) 10:02, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

RomaC, the capital of Israel is not in dispute; it is a question of recognition by muslim countries. They refuse to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital and refer to the country of Israel as the zionist country. Jerusalem is the undisputed capital of Israel as it is declared by their own sovereign law since becoming a country. The Gaza strip, West Bank, Golan Heights are in dispute, big difference.Avinyc (talk) 17:22, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

It is by no means just Muslim countries. The overwhelming majority of embassies to Israel are sited in Tel Aviv (and of course the really anti-Israel states don't have any embassy there.)--Peter cohen (talk) 20:08, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Embassies are located in Tel Aviv not because it is considered the capital. Diplomatic relations began when the country became independent. From 1948-1967 Jerusalem was not unified and the Jordanian-controlled East Jerusalem area was under an arab blockade. After the liberation in 1967, many embassies were already located in Tel Aviv that it would have been difficult to move the offices without upsetting other countries in the region. Other countries, such as Taiwan, have special diplomatic circumstances for their country. The location of an embassy is not indicative of a country's capital. So, as it seems, because muslim countries hate Israel, the embassies are not located in Jerusalem, yet. Avinyc (talk) 01:13, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

The term "occupation" is used in many different ways, so let's make things straight: (1) If "occupied" means subject to occupation administration (i.e. martial law, restrictions on civil rights etc.) then the Golan Heights are not occupied, while most of the West Bank is occupied (with some semi-autonomous areas subject to the Palestinian Authority). (2) If "occupied" means captured in war and still claimed by the previous sovereign, then the Golan Heights are occupied, and the West Bank is not (Jordan doesn't claim this territory anymore). (3) If "occupied" means a territory whose people strive for independence, then the Golan Heights is not occupied, and the West Bank is occupied. The UN uses the term "occupied" in an obscure way, and that's okay - it is an international political organization, and we all know political or diplomatic language is often obscure and certainly not neutral. The UN has its job, and we have ours. We have to decide if we use the term "occupied" and in what way. DrorK (talk) 12:01, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Drork, You dismissing the United Nation's term, and suggesting researching the question, sounds like original research, which we are to avoid here, no? RomaC (talk) 13:02, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this is OR, but rather a linguistic issue - like consulting a dictionary to pick the best word for a certain sentence. We are not bound by the UN, which is a political organization with a certain agenda, which dictates the terms it uses. okedem (talk) 13:35, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually RomaC, we have a long note on the status of Jerusalem as the capital being disputed, as well as an even longer explanation of the main page for Jerusalem. In the infobox, no descriptive is used, so it's not a relevant example in this case. I do not oppose having it as 'the territories' without a descriptive in the lead, having a broader explanation later in the article (and other articles), where it should say that the final status of the territories is disputed.

Due weight should be given to all those who say 'occupied', but I think you're missing the point here. Using the term 'occupied' as fact is an obvious violation of WP:NPOV, because one side in the conflict rejects this term (certainly not a fringe opinion), and because the very word is accusatory/POV. However, the term 'disputed' is completely neutral because it does not takes sides. It merely says that there is no agreement on the status of these territories at the moment (a fact with which I'm sure you will agree), i.e. 'agree to disagree'. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 17:05, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

P.S. I also completely agree with Drork's last post. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 17:06, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Understood. RomaC (talk) 17:22, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I was waiting for the "Original Research" argument. It is a often used as a "deus ex machina" in these kinds of debates. The vagueness of the term "occupation" and the fact that it is often used politically rather than descriptively, is not my innovative idea. I don't need to source a claim that the sky looks blue at noon, red during sunset and black at night. It is quite obvious to anyone who looks through the window. Similarly the different usages of the word "occupation" and the vagueness of this term is very clear to anyone who reads English. DrorK (talk) 20:30, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the best thing to do here is to change the name to "disputed territories", and then, if people feel it necessary, to note, in the section, that the UN classifies these territories as "occupied". Tad Lincoln (talk) 01:59, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree with that at all. These territories were occupied by the use of force (in a war situation) and are considered as 'occupied territories' under international law. I understand why some here wish to use 'disputed territories' but that is one sided and seems to suggest that there is a legal question as to their status, there is no such legal question in international law, the were territories captured by armed actions and as such are occupied (that is clear from UN resolutions). Israeli internal law (such as extending Israeli law etc to the Golan Hights) is immaterial to their status in International Law. If need be I would leave the section as 'Occupied territories' and then note in the body text that Israel refers to these territories as 'Disputed Territories' despite the rulings of the United Nations and the usage of countries such as the UK.EoinBach (talk) 04:50, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

This is exactly the point where we have to agree that Wikipedia is not a political or juridical body, and it does not "recognize" countries, sovereignty, nor does it enact or acknowledge laws. Wikipedia merely describes situations without saying whether they are desirable or not. This is exactly the difference between Wikipedia and the UN. The UN does recognize political entities, and does state its opinion about laws and statues. We don't. It is not for us to decide which law has the upper hand - the Israeli internal law, the Syrian internal law, the UN resolutions or another article of the international law. BTW, there is no full consensus as to the status of these territories, and there are different opinions regarding each of the territories in question. DrorK (talk) 05:25, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Your argument is based on a disputed opinion, which also makes the changing of the title proper. It is not recognized under international law that territories are occupied. UN resolutions discussing the arab-israeli conflict are not binding. Israel controls the land within its borders, and this "International Law" you mention is based on opinion unless you can provide a better explanation. The fact that you dismiss Israel's law as immaterial is evidence of your biased POV. The section should be changed to Disputed Territories since there is no international law stating they are occupied territories. Avinyc (talk) 05:32, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with EoinBach and have stated so in somewhat different words for the same reason. Perhaps people should look at Occupied territories, for some words behind this thinking. In addition, (I assume) Wiki-content is a consensual balance of what is said and how it is said, but at the same time it also includes some understanding of what is not included. The situation seems that the territories are occupied, including (more or less) Golan and Gaza, based on international bodies, international law and specific national governments; this might be characterized as a third-party view. Since there has been a lack of resolution for many years this has made them disputed, for sure. The use of the 'disputed' term is specifically favored by a minority within Israel; I don't believe it is a majority, but I'm a third party. Since we are on that page and in this specific section, I believe that 'Occupied' should be in the title and the 'disputed' aspect discussed in the section, where it may uses the most relevant sources. On the other hand, if 'Disputed' is in the title, that moves all the 'occupied' aspect into the section for discussion. I feel that would tend to generate more heat than light. Consider it. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 06:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I favor the use of disputed over occupied because it is a more balanced and fair description of the situation. Occupied ignores the POV of the Israel and non-occupied position. Disputed allows both views to be recognized. I also do not believe disputed is a minority position and/or limited to Israel. I think it is more accurate to say the minority view in Israel is that the territories are neither occupied nor disputed. Disputed is the middle ground and reflects a NPOV. Avinyc (talk) 15:08, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

The UN regards the Israeli control over the WB and the Golan Heights as a legal occupation, and it specifies the circumstances under which Israel, in this organization's view, will have to withdraw from these territories. The fact that the SC resolutions are non-binding is irrelevant if you are looking for the UN position as a political organization. However, as I said, we do not give precedence to the UN position. It is just another important view, no more, no less. The Israeli internal law makes clear distinction between the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem on the one hand, and the West Bank on the other hand. DrorK (talk) 16:48, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I do not disagree with any of the facts you have stated. I firmly believe that UN's position and past resolutions should not be the only view expressed in this article. Most countries do not recognize the existence of Israel or accept its capital as Jerusalem. If we follow the same logic of ignoring opposing viewpoints that don't amount to a large google hit result, then we should consider deleting this article to appease the majority POV. Avinyc (talk) 17:29, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

No offense, but please stick to the facts. In 1949, a year after its creation) Israel was recognized by 47 out of 89 countries (53%, data is taken from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and the list of countries here on en-wp). In 2003 Israel was recognized by 159 out of 194 countries (82%). Almost all of the countries that don't recognize Israel are Arabs or Muslim countries in the Middle East and southern Asia. There are several Arab and Muslim countries that do recognize Israel. Jerusalem is not recognized by the international community as the capital of Israel, but all foreign leaders agree to meet the Israeli leaders in their residence in Jerusalem. Jerusalem is presented as Israel's capital in many international occasions without this causing a fuss or protest. Even Anwar A-Sadat, the Egyptian president, agreed to speak in the Knesset in Jerusalem. The only leader who insisted on visiting Tel Aviv rather than Jerusalem is King Abdullah the 2nd of Jordan. So, to sum it up, Israel is well-recognized, and most countries accept Jerusalem as its capital unofficially. DrorK (talk) 20:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I should not have said most countries do not recognize Israel. Also, it appears this discussion has fallen into a tangent here. The Jerusalem issue was corrected and now we need to do the same for the occupied territories section. The issue is to change the title of this section to Disputed Territories. I am waiting for those changes to be made as I expect reverts if I do them. Avinyc (talk) 13:58, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no consensus for such a change and policy is nto to change unless a consensus exists.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:08, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it would help me if you could explain why Disputed is not more neutral than Occupied? I am having difficulty understanding why there is resistance to correcting the title. To me, disputed covers all sides of the problem. If the term is in fact one-sided, is there another alternative suggestion. "Occupied" is one-sided to me. Avinyc (talk) 00:44, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

One critical point is that Wikipedia calls things by the name they are known by, not by the term editors prefer, consensus or not. (Wiki us not a democracy.) Google hits for "'occupied territories' +Israel": 875,000; for "'disputed territories' + Israel":34,000. RomaC (talk) 22:13, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Basing things on google searches is not recommended. I just did your search myself and came up with 1,510,000 for occupied territories, and 2,000,000 for disputed territories. Goalie1998 (talk) 22:22, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

THere's soemthing very odd about your search. I don't get numbers that large even omitting the "+Israel". My numbers for the specified searches do match RomaC's.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Nothing odd about the search results at all. I just did the same searches. I got about 1.5 million hits for occupied territories + Israel and about 2 million hits for disputed territories + Israel. Tad Lincoln (talk) 23:35, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I have said a couple times above that popular does not mean accurate. A popular search term on google is not grounds to title an article as such. Many articles have redirects and there is nothing wrong with redirecting Occupied Territories to the section or article entitled Disputed Territories. It still allows those searching under their own personal favorite term or keyword to find the relevant article. Avinyc (talk) 00:49, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

TadL, in Google Search, putting quotation marks around two or more words yields results where those two words occur together in that order. And putting a plus sign in front of a word yields results which must have that word. So, search "occupied territories" + Israel and then search "disputed territories" + Israel and you will get the results that Peter and I did.

Avi, I appreciate you believe that "disputed territories is the correct name, but the threshold for inclusion in Wiki is not accuracy or even truth, but rather verifiability, based on reliable sources. RomaC (talk) 07:26, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Roma you are correct that the occupied territories is verifiable, but I disagree with the point that wikipedia does not aim to be accurate in its articles. NPOV is also one of the content policies and this is what I have been fighting for throughout this discussion. Avinyc (talk) 23:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Avinyc. Verifiability is more of a mean than a goal. Our goal is to present description as close to the truth as possible. Verifiability is one of the best methods to do that. DrorK (talk) 06:46, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

this problem could be circumvented by calling it soemthing like "Territories occupied by Israel in the Six Day War" or "Territories conquered by Israel in the Six Day War" Telaviv1 (talk) 09:40, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Your first suggestion is just an expansion on the original occupied title which is what we are trying to correct here. The second sentence is not neutral either, and would probably cause a repeat discussion since the term "conquered" would would imply Israeli dominance and control over the territory when we are trying to push things back to the middle. To me, disputed is the middle ground between occupied and conquered. Avinyc (talk) 21:36, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I've read through this talk section. So, in a nutshell the argument being advanced is that changing 'occupied' to 'disputed' here (and by extension, globally in WP in all I-P article titles, subheadings, text etc) we will increase compliance with WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:DUE, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:NCON and probably others that I can't think of.
hmmm...
Has this issue really never been subject to a dispute resolution before ? Sean.hoyland - talk 11:34, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

..there is all this and probably plenty more where that came from. Sean.hoyland - talk 02:58, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the issue has been discussed many times before, but now we are trying to correct the exact situation you described. I am looking for editors to explain why disputed is not neutral and proper term even after all the arguing that has gone on here. If there is no new argument that can counter this position, I feel we should move forward. Avinyc (talk) 14:30, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

If you regard occupied->disputed as a correction then you should be able to bring evidence to demonstrate that the change increases the degree of compliance with the guidelines I listed. For example, you could systematically go through the 6 methods outlined in Wikipedia:NCON#Identification_of_common_names_using_external_references and present the results. What isn't clear to me in this talk section is what kind of decision procedure would convince you that 'disputed' is not neutral or not an appropriate term. That makes this issue rather intractable. Are you able to imagine an argument or decision procedure that would convince you that 'disputed' is not neutral ? If so, what would be the nature of that argument/decision procedure and the associated information ? Which guidelines that I listed should such an argument/decision procedure focus on ? If your concern is neutrality then I suppose the focus should be on WP:DUE and it's effect on WP:NPOV. That would indicate that the decision procedure should be to determine proper weight by considering a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources. Would that be an acceptable decision procedure for example ? Sean.hoyland - talk 09:48, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Very helpful comment and avenue of approach; all should try it. Tends to support current section wording. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 15:11, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

We have already discussed the google test earlier in this discussion and I understand occupied is more popular than disputed in search results. The issue of disputed and occupied has not been settled, but steps have been made to correct it already: [4] I also find it humorous that the article itself is in dispute:) Avinyc (talk) 16:50, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Wait a minute, there is something here I don't understand. Is Avinyc supposed to suggest a way to prove that "Disputed Territories" is a non-neutral term? This is not a scietific theory. There is no need to find a method to disprove it in order to make it valid. What kind of suggestion is it? DrorK (talk) 12:12, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

No, I wrote "Are you able to imagine an argument or decision procedure that would convince you that 'disputed' is not neutral ? If so, what would be the nature of that argument/decision procedure and the associated information ?". You can change the word from 'disputed' to 'occupied' or anything else in that sentence, it remains essentially the same question. The question is, what is an acceptable decision procedure to decide this issue that complies with guidelines. Sean.hoyland - talk 12:59, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Vegetation and animals

Live in Israel some plants or animals except human? According this article I don't know? raziel (talk) 14:29, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I guess that's because of article size issues. Squash Racket (talk) 14:33, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Nature is major subject in article about country, particularly in featured article. raziel (talk) 17:32, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, seems to be a valid concern. I checked some articles, and usually there is a small "Environment" or "Biodiversity" section. Squash Racket (talk) 15:22, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

"Israel" does not now include the"Jews"

Per the Bibl,e "Israel" use to refer to the 12 tribes. When the tribes split, the Northern tribes inherited the name Israel while the Southern tribes (including the Jews)called themselves Judea. Since that time no "Jew" has been an "Israelite".

2 Chronicles Chapter 10

1: And Rehoboam went to Shechem: for to Shechem were all Israel come to make him king. 2: And it came to pass, when Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who was in Egypt, whither he had fled from the presence of Solomon the king, heard it, that Jeroboam returned out of Egypt. 3: And they sent and called him. So Jeroboam and all Israel came and spake to Rehoboam, saying, 4: Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore ease thou somewhat the grievous servitude of thy father, and his heavy yoke that he put upon us, and we will serve thee. 5: And he said unto them, Come again unto me after three days. And the people departed. 6: And king Rehoboam took counsel with the old men that had stood before Solomon his father while he yet lived, saying, What counsel give ye me to return answer to this people? 7: And they spake unto him, saying, If thou be kind to this people, and please them, and speak good words to them, they will be thy servants for ever. 8: But he forsook the counsel which the old men gave him, and took counsel with the young men that were brought up with him, that stood before him. 9: And he said unto them, What advice give ye that we may return answer to this people, which have spoken to me, saying, Ease somewhat the yoke that thy father did put upon us? 10: And the young men that were brought up with him spake unto him, saying, Thus shalt thou answer the people that spake unto thee, saying, Thy father made our yoke heavy, but make thou it somewhat lighter for us; thus shalt thou say unto them, My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins. 11: For whereas my father put a heavy yoke upon you, I will put more to your yoke: my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions. 12: So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day, as the king bade, saying, Come again to me on the third day. 13: And the king answered them roughly; and king Rehoboam forsook the counsel of the old men, 14: And answered them after the advice of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, but I will add thereto: my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions. 15: So the king hearkened not unto the people: for the cause was of God, that the LORD might perform his word, which he spake by the hand of Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat. 16: And when all Israel saw that the king would not hearken unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? and we have none inheritance in the son of Jesse: every man to your tents, O Israel: and now, David, see to thine own house. So all Israel went to their tents. 17: But as for the children of Israel that dwelt in the cities of Judah, Rehoboam reigned over them. 18: Then king Rehoboam sent Hadoram that was over the tribute; and the children of Israel stoned him with stones, that he died. But king Rehoboam made speed to get him up to his chariot, to flee to Jerusalem. 19: And Israel rebelled against the house of David unto this day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davidic_line

After the death of King Solomon son of David, the ten northern tribes of the Kingdom of Israel rejected the Davidic line, refusing to accept Rehoboam son of Solomon, and instead chose as king Jeroboam and formed the northern Kingdom of Israel. This kingdom was eventually conquered by Assyria who exiled them, to disappear from history as The Ten Lost Tribes.68.160.176.7 (talk) 22:52, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Citations

According to Checklinks, several URLs are dead or have connection issues. Happy editing, --J.Mundo (talk) 21:31, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

israel cease to exist in 20 years?cia report

can anyone verify it and if true should it be added? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.162.106.199 (talk) 10:52, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Have no idea what you are referring to, and since even the CIA have yet to invent a time machine, it's irrelevant. okedem (talk) 14:11, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I think we have enough problems with describing the present. I am not sure it is a good idea to start describing the world as it might look like 20 years from now. DrorK (talk) 04:25, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I think he's referring to the recent PressTV piece. I don't think PressTV are an RS for CIA reports. :) Sean.hoyland - talk 13:55, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I suppose it depends on your interpretation on the word "exist". The PressTV cites the CIA's belief that a two-state solution will not occur. PressTV argues that non-jews in the westbank will have to be given citizenship or israel will have to implement an apartheid regime. Giving non-jews citizenship would destroy the countries jewish character. Implementing apartheid would destory it's democratic character. Since Israel identifies itself as a jewish democracy, this effectively "destroys" israel. CapitalElll (talk) 20:14, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

This scenario is often brought forward in political debates in Israel, usually as an argument in favor of letting the Palestinians create an independent Palestinian state in the WB and Gaza as soon as possible, i.e. before it is "too late". People who believe in this scenario are worried that Israel will cease to exist as we know it, or to be even more precise: as declared in its declaration of independence, and not that it will cease to exist at all. DrorK (talk) 05:19, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

its a fake report invented by Iranian TV: http://www.thejc.com/articles/iran-uses-fake-cia-report-kill-israel

Telaviv1 (talk) 19:42, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Foreign Relations Change Mauretania

please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Israel for the updates on dipl. rel. with mauritania, this should of course be changed in this article. I do not know if it should be cited why and when this happened, since it is in the main foreign relations page. If this is the case, then maybe in the Conflicts and Peace Treaties section?(Petterf (talk) 07:48, 19 March 2009 (UTC))

History in the lead

The lead has too much history and some of it is poorly written. I suggest removing all history from the lead. Telaviv1 (talk) 20:30, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Removal of all history would not comply with policy, since such a large portion of the article deals with it. The quality may depend on what is considered necessary for inclusion, and then the necessary machinations needed to present it neutrally. Currently, that balance is quite reasonable. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 00:59, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

--This wording is pretty suspect... "The modern state of Israel has its roots in the Biblical Land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael), a concept central to Judaism since ancient times,[8][9] and the heartland of the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah." This strikes me as odd...how can a physical state have it's "roots" in an arguably mythical land? Maybe a less contentious wording would be something like "THE IDEA of the modern state of israel...etc.."

Also:

" The Israelis were subsequently victorious in both confirming their independence and expanding the borders of the Jewish state beyond those in the UN Partition Plan. Since then, Israel has fought a series of wars with many of the Arab countries, resulting in decades of violence that continues to this day.[13] Since its foundation, Israel's boundaries and right to exist have been disputed, mainly by its Arab neighbors. "

This reeks of bias, the use of "victorious" in the sense of expanding their borders beyond what was internationally recognized as a fair division...You don't get to be VICTORIOUS in illegal occupations..you get to be..."successful"..or maybe "despite international condemnation, Israel started a move to occupy territory and illegally commence building settlements there.."

The argument that the history portion needs to stay "as-is" to allow for neutrality, is suspect and ill-intentioned, I believe...seeing as how the section is ANYTHING but neutral. GolemCatcher (talk) 19:05, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

There's nothing mythical about the Land of Israel. The Jewish presence in that area is well documented archeologically.

"Victorious" means successful, usually in armed conflict. Israel was the victorious side in the war; this says absolutely nothing about justice or morals, simply describing a fact. okedem (talk) 19:12, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

--umm...You're not reading my points..my argument is that it seems irresponsible to say that the state of Israel is founded in a biblical reference..it's almost discrediting the validity of Israel, seeing as any bible should be viewed very openly as MAYBE NOT BEING TRUE... --and your second point just conveniently ignores MY point, which is:"Under the UN Charter there can lawfully be no territorial gains from war, even by a state acting in self-defense. The response of other states to Israel's occupation shows a virtually unanimous opinion that even if Israel's action were defensive, its retention of the West Bank and Gaza Strip was not." (which I just lifted from a wikipedia article, as it states my point better than I do)..so Victory in this case means a clear transgression in the eyes of a good chunk of the world..(not just ARAB countries) so i reiterate that I think that wording shows CLEAR bias, and is not appropriate.

GolemCatcher (talk) 19:35, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there's any problem with the Land of Israel thing. Biblical isn't just what's written in the book, but a period of time, during which some things happened in the region.

I'm not interested in your legal analysis, and your claim regarding the word "victorious" is simply wrong. Victorious means nothing about legality or morals or international opinion or anything else. It describes the outcome of the war, which was a victory for Israel. The Arab states and Israel had a war, Israel won it, thus - it was victorious. It means nothing else. okedem (talk) 20:44, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

--just for the record, ONCE AGAIN you refuse to face the actual argument, while trying to distract with semantic diversions...I re-iterate: "Under the UN Charter there can lawfully be no territorial gains from war, even by a state acting in self-defense. The response of other states to Israel's occupation shows a virtually unanimous opinion that even if Israel's action were defensive, its retention of the West Bank and Gaza Strip was not." Can you not read? -This- wikipedia "article" does not just claim Israel as "victorious" in the War...it claims it as "victorious" in having extended its claims farther than most countries view as justified, or "LEGAL"..and I find that offensive in this context..i.e: a supposedly neutral resource. If you care to rebut, please rebut maturely and insightfully, instead of just as a knee-jerk reaction.. GolemCatcher (talk) 23:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

First - cool off. Language such as "Can you not read?" does not contribute to a fruitful discussion.

I say again, "victorious" has no legal meaning. The Israeli forces set out to defend the new country, and also to capture some territories beyond the partition plan lines (yes, they wanted to do this, otherwise they would have captured those territories - whether or not this act is justified is irrelevant). They succeeded in their objectives, and were thus victorious. The capture of new territories wasn't an accident, but was intended. You keep talking pasting the same quote about lawfulness and legality, and they are both irrelevant in this context. I don't know what bothers you about "victorious", but it is an accurate description of reality. okedem (talk) 06:55, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Holocaust?

Jewish people are some of the most greedy, intolerant, vile savages on earth. When Hitler raped their asses they came crying to the Middle-east and nicked some land through fear anad terror. Hitler did good for he culled them at the right moment. Jews should suffer and Jews should die for they are a people who have caused wars, killed millions and butchered children. They are not human and the scum of the earth. They are the biggest hypocrites of all time and deserved the holocaust. PEOPLE RISE UP AND KILL THE JEWS. Like a spolit child they need a good smacking, or rather, another holocaust.