Talk:1987 Mecca incident

Title

NPOV? I don't know whether the anti-Iran claims have any basis, but somebody should check. --Nargmage 22:07, 14 October 2005 (UTC) --Evidently not--220.238.70.149 10:25, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Tried to clean it up a bit, though I don't know much about the riot itself Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 09:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Not sure if am missing something but: "This resulted in 402 people killed (275 Iranians and 85 Saudi policemen)" - what about the other 42? if it was "(including 275 Iranians and 85 Saudi policemen, plus a number of bystanders" it would make more sense (assuming that's what happened) - could someone with a bit more knowledge of the event deal with this? --Black Butterfly 15:40, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

can we change the title of this from riot to something else? the pro iran side would say that it was not a riot but a massacare

Hrm, "massacre" is as pointed as "riot" is the problem, just in the other direction. Do you have a more neutral term in mind to suggest? Incident? Clash? Shooting? (were they even shot?) Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 01:46, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

from an iranian point of view it wasnt a riot but more like an attack by the saudi police. i think protest is a much more nuteral word. it was an initial protest by the iranians that led to the incident.

moved it :) Feel free to make any corrections you feel the article needs, by the way Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 19:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

state sponsored terrorism

Hey guys! On that day Iranians organized a calm and peaceful demonstration as every year. They organized the demonstration in previous years with no problem. It was nothing new. We have also numerous government-organized demonstrations in Iran throughout the year. It is just for 1 hour and then it finishes. That's all. Saudi's regime killed 400 people! 400 is 1/5 of 11/09. This was a massacre. A terrible one. These western countries were all silent. Why? If there is a demonstration in Iran and Iranian regime kill one person, suddenly 100 countries will condemn that!! Saudi's fundamentalist regime killed 400 innocent normal (very normal tourists). .....This was one of the biggest tragedy for Iran of 20th century. Many families lost their members. Sina Kardar 19:05, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

There are insufficient independent accounts to make a good assessment.--Patchouli 02:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I think every thing is clear if one sees the following points:

• Every year hundreds of thounsands of Iranians go to Haj. These people are normal people. (I am not writing to those fanatics who think all Iranians are terrorists!)
• They used to organize a boring government organized demonstration like every year. Such demonstrations have been always calm both in Iran and Saudi arabia.
• There is a strong anti Iranian feeling among some arabs. Even in his last minutes, Saddam used the opportunity to say Death to Persians. This is pure racism.
• Alqaeda which is a sunni (vahhabi) group was at its formation period at that time in Saudi arabia. Extremist sunnis think it is fair to kill Shias.
• I have a direct experience with this event as my mothers cousins were all there and become injured. They would never go to Saudi arabia if they knew such a thing is going to happen.

Guys! we even condemn killing a of person like saddam. why do we lose our humanity when it comes to such clear bloody act ? We all condem if in a peaceful demonstration in tehran, the regime arrest 5 person or beat a few. Then why do we lose our sensitivity when it comes to killing of hundreds innocent by police? I will stop here and I will not make any comment further. If the reader has a tiny bit of ethics and humanity, he/she will see the dirty act of Saudi regime. Sina Kardar 12:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

1. There is no response from the Saudi Arabian side in the article.
2. Government-organized demonstrations are not always peaceful. The Islamic Republic decides whether it is going to be violent and to what extent.[1][2]--Patchouli 23:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Governmant organized demonstration happens every week in Iran and it is almost always peaceful (There might be very very few exceptions that I can not remember). But in Hajj it was ALWAYS peaceful. If Saudi Arabia did not like "Baraa-at az Moshrekin" ( برائت از مشرکين), it could easily ban Iranians of entering Saudi Arabia but has no right to beat let alone kill hundreds of civilians. Let me summerize the whole story: Saudi said any demonstration against Israel and US in Mecca or Medina is Ok and acceptable but not inside the Great mosque. They believed this would be an innovation in Islam. And an innovation in Islam will make God angry and those innovators will go to hell. That's all. Sina Kardar 15:38, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

In 1943, a Saudi religious judge ordered an Iranian pilgrim beheaded for allegedly defiling the Great Mosque with excrement supposedly carried into the mosque in his pilgrim's garment.Sina Kardar 16:37, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The demonstration was not peaceful at all. Just take a look at the following scholarly source.

On Friday July 31, 1987, a demonstration by Iranian pilgrims against the enemies of Islam (including USA and Israel), erupted into fighting between the demonstrators and Saudi security forces.

The violence by the demonstrators led to shooting by the police which culminated in a stampede of the pilgrims (K. McLachlan, Iran and the Continuing Crisis in the Persian Gulf, GeoJournal, Vol.28, Issue 3, Nov. 1992, p.359).

Heja Helweda 01:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

That's not what the majority of the sources say. Don't try to justify killing of unarmed demonstrators. --Mardavich 03:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Violent demonstrations

"..Khomeini included the customary plea to pilgrims that they avoid clashes, insults, and disputes, and warned against those intent on disruption who might embark on spontaneous moves.[3]"

POV and Disputed tags

Please someone describes why there should be these tags?--Sa.vakilian 03:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

There are a number of good reasons. For one thing the article tries - not so subtly - to imply that the Saudi police just woke up one morning and decided kill these people because they were Shi'as. This is, of course, absurd, as Shi'a pilgrims had been coming to Mecca annually before this incident, and continued to come annually afterwards without such clashes occurring. It also takes it at face value that Khomeini had instructed pilgrims to be peaceful and quiet when there is every indication he insitgated the protests to embarass his Saudi enemies. Finally, it calls it a "massacre" when 85 armed Saudi policeman were also killed. From the discussion above, it looks like someone moved it to "massacre" unilaterally. Instead of "riots" (which favors one side) and "massacre" (which favors the other), the article should be moved to "clashes", and then let the reader decide based on the facts (after some editing, of course). Regards. -- Slacker (talk) 23:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

---

Wow...Im saudi and find this article completly absurd...Just as absurd as persian arabphobic feelings or vice versa... If the "protest" as you call it was compleltly normal like all the othe years before, then why did the police attack them on that day only? was it not an anti-saudi riot because of saudi's support of iraq? and about bannning iranians from coming to saudi, saudi arabia does not bar any muslims because of their origin (as there is always a limit based on a country's muslim population and not on the relationship with the country, even saudi's are not allowed to go to hajj more than once in 10 years)

Please...Persians, stop escaliting everything, we might have conquered your country a long while ago, but that was a long time ago...The iraq and iran war were caused by the two most radical people in middle eastern politics...that doesnt mean arabs and persians should hate each other....I mean ye sure, maybe mock each other from time to time but not HATE.... By the way my grandmother was persian...So plz dont accuse me of being a racist...I just want the baathists of both sides to stop making everything so tense through such articles.... khuda hafez :D —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.188.154.133 (talk)

Title of the Article

The title "1987 massacre of Iranian pilgrims " is biased and unjust. It wasn't only 275 Iranians who died at the riot. as a matter of fact, many others including 85 Saudis including policemen, and 45 pilgrims from other countries also died in the riot. Also the use of "massacre" is an original research. Please see Wikipedia:No original research. --Kaaveh (talk) 20:35, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Even "Pilgrims" seems a bit POV, since they were demonstrators. "1987 Hajj shootings" might be a better direction to look - with some refining. Shooting at the 1987 Hajj? Sherurcij ^{(speaker for the dead)} 20:45, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

You are right, I suggest "1987 Mecca riot". --Kaaveh (talk) 20:48, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

If it was specific to the Hajj, I'd prefer to mention the event that sparked it, rather than the city. "1989 Toronto riot" doesn't give as much information as "1989 Fisherman's Riot in Toronto" or something. Of course, with "Hajj", we don't need the "Mecca" in the title imho, as it's assumed. Sherurcij ^{(speaker for the dead)} 21:15, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

It all make sence. Therefore it would be "1987 Hajj riot". --Kaaveh (talk) 21:56, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Iranians that protested there did not protest against the Saudi regime, their protest was against the American government in a tense period of relations between the two. There is no widely accepted source that indicates Iranians were responsible for the killing of those 85 Saudi police. Iranian pilgrims protested against the United States because of its support for Iraq and delivering chemical weapons to Saddam. Nothing indicates that the protest was violent before the Saudi's were shooting anyone in sight with guns: http://www.irannegah.com/Video.aspx?id=261. On another note, Saudi's strict ideology of Wahhabism classifies Shiites as Kafirin (disbelievers) and there are some that have issued fatwa endorsing the murder and persecution of Shiites. 1987 Massacre would seem more reasonable. There is a claim by Saudi's that Iranians were planning to 'destroy the holy mosque' but this is of course outrageous and has more to do with Iranophobia a deep hatred for the Shiite faith as being agents of satan etc.--Paradoxic (talk) 16:50, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Wonderful opinion, but I think Wikipedia endorses a NPOV so maybe something like "1987 Hajj clashes" would be more appropriate? 2.89.98.208 (talk) 10:34, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Unilateral moving of the page

I've undone the unilateral renaming of the page, which was against Wikipedia policy. This is a controversial topic, so the page should not be moved or renamed without formal request for move, and a clear consensus, as outlined at WP:Move. Additionally, the title "Mecca massacre" generates six times as many results as "Hajj Demonstrations" on Google Books and Google scholar, which are generally used to measure the academic usage of term fit for the title. Kurdo777 (talk) 21:13, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

The unilateral renaming was done by Paradoxic, [4]. There was no consensus for that move, as shown by the above section. I renamed it to what it was before: A more NPOV name. Unflavoured (talk) 01:14, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

That is ancient history in Wikipedia terms, a move done two years ago that was uncontested at that time, and therefore not seen as controversial. The policy NOW is that you can not move the page to a new name AT THIS TIME, without a FORMAL REQUEST FOR MOVE since I am contesting your move and it is therefore a controversial move. Which is why you need to follow WP:MOVE's guidelines on controversial moves. Also, read WP:TITLE, your proposed title is not supported by most academic sources, as "Mecca massacre" is the most commonly used terminology in academic source, and therefore the more appropriate title. NPOV has nothing to do with it, as there are hundreds of pages on Wikipedia titled "Massacre X or Y". If there are many academic sources use the term "massacre" (which they do in this case), then that's what the title should be. Kurdo777 (talk) 05:48, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Uncontested ?! Scroll up just a little. I already pointed this out. Additionally, "Mecca Massacre" is a POV title. If you are serious about using the most common name, then you should change it to "1987 Hajj Riots," as that is the most common name, according to Google. But that is slightly POV as well, so I choose the most NPOV: "1987 Hajj Demonstrations." Unflavoured (talk) 06:32, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Now you're just being disruptive. If you want to move the page, you need to request a move per our guidelines on controversial moves. If you persist on on ignoring the Wikipedia polices and guidelines, you will just be blocked. Kurdo777 (talk) 21:08, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Please do not accuse me of being disruptive. I fully explained the reason for the revert. And you reverted my edits without cause: I had taken out several NPOV and unsourced statements. Unflavoured (talk) 01:14, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Page name

To clear up any misunderstanding, I would like point out a few items:

1- The name "1987 massacre of Iranian pilgrims" was disputed, and there a consensus for the article to be renamed "1987 Hajj Riots", later changed to the slightly more NPOV "1987 Hajj Demonstrations."

2- User Paradoxic changed the name of the article to "1987 Mecca Massacre," without discussing this move on the talk page, and against previous consensus.

3- I changed the name back to what it was before: "1987 Hajj Demonstrations." Unfortunately, this was reverted.

Since this article was move-protected, I have requested it to be moved [[5]]. Unflavoured (talk) 01:43, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

Mecca massacre → 1987 Mecca Riot – This is the title that had the previous consensus. The current title is POV and consensus was against it. Unflavoured (talk) 02:10, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support - As the nominator. Unflavoured (talk) 12:16, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose "Mecca massacre" with 11,800 results on Google Books/Scholar [[6]] is the most commonly-used term by academic sources for this event. POV does not apply here. WP:TITLE, which is the Wikipedia policy on titles, clearly states that " When a significant majority of English-language reliable sources all refer to the topic or subject of an article by a given name, Wikipedia should follow the sources and use that name as our article title (subject to the other naming criteria). Sometimes that common name will include non-neutral words that Wikipedia normally avoids (Examples include Boston Massacre, Rape of Belgium, and Teapot Dome scandal). In such cases, the commonality of the name overrides our desire to avoid passing judgment (see below). This is acceptable because the non-neutrality and judgment is that of the sources, and not that of Wikipedia editors". Kurdo777 (talk) 10:34, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
• Support - The number of GHits is not really a reliable way of analyzing this; besides, just putting the search term in quotes drops the number of hits by more than an order of magnitude (ie most of those 11,800 hits were not related to the topic). Significant numbers of sources appear to use each of the terms, so let's default to the less dramatic one. VQuakr (talk) 16:50, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

• oppose A good number of G-hits used Mecca massacare..., the riot also occured but then there was an ensuing massacare. So the two terms do not contradict but the massacare portion seems much more significant than simple rioting. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 16:56, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
• Support. The current title is POV and consensus was against it. Kaaveh (talk) 04:16, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
• Comment Some editors keep throwing around the word "consensus", you all need to read WP:Consensus] to understand what a consensus is. There has never been a consensus on what the title should be. If you believe otherwise, you should re-read the talk page here from top to the bottom. Kurdo777 (talk) 10:13, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

They say one should set an example to others by following one's own advice before sharing it. Perhaps if you had read this talk page, you might have come upon this section: Talk:Mecca_massacre#Title_of_the_Article. You can clearly see a couple of editors discussing the title and coming to a consensus. A year later, Paradoxic decided to change the article title... against consensus. Unflavoured (talk) 12:13, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

My point stands, you still seem to be lost on what a consensus actually means in Wikipedia. A couple of editors sharing the same POV, does not constitute a community consensus. Kurdo777 (talk) 13:10, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

• Comment a massacre implies intention mowing down of pilgrims, this seems to have been a stampede? Chesdovi (talk) 10:56, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
• oppose - The current title is no where anyone's POV rather it's a term used by many authentic sources. Many reliable and other sources term that event as Mecca Massacre. - Hum Aliwalay (talk) 18:33, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose The proposed name is obvious POV.--Aliwiki (talk) 18:56, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

• Comment I think the above user meant "Support" for the renaming and move. Kaaveh (talk) 06:59, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I am pretty sure they mean that the proposed name is POV when they say "The proposed name is obvious POV." Of course, the current name, "Massacre" is absurdly POV, but that seems to be ok. Who knows... Unflavoured (talk) 07:52, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support I'm afraid you misread your Google findings, Kurdo777. Go to the last page: Your 11,800 hits melt down to 377. Have a look at those 377 hits: Many of them are books published long before 1987. Next, google for the whole phrase instead —- "mecca massacre", in double quotes (as explained in the advanced search tips) — and see what you get: only 39 results, some of them mirroring Wikipedia, some others referring to a 1858 massacre in Jeddah. You will get more and better results if you google for "mecca riots" (59). - Ankimai (talk) 08:20, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Blanket revert

Please do not blanket revert. I used "Iranian" instead of the earlier "Irani." You can cite sources in the lede, as shown here: Al Razi. The current title is disputed. All my edits are sourced. Please do not simply revert because you do not like it. Discuss and provide proper reasons, thank you. Unflavoured (talk) 10:45, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Read WP:LEAD, we do not cite sources in the lead. And the current title, disputed or not, cannot be changed in the text of the lead, until the formal request for move, has been fulfilled. The title and the lead should match regardless. You can't just bypass Wikipedia rules and procedures. Also, what is "Irani"? Kurdo777 (talk) 10:49, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I read WP:LEAD#Links, and it seems to say: "Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none." I hope that satisfies you on that point.

I am taking into consideration your position on the title, and thus until the title issue is settled, I will go for a compromise.

And you, again, blanket reverted all my previous edits, instead of the parts you have issue with. Please do not do this. All the statements I added are sourced. If there is a part with a particular issue that you want to discuss, please do so. Blanket reverting over and over is not helping improve the article. Thank you. Unflavoured (talk) 14:01, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Kurdo. Regardless of what you think about your own edits, your edits are disputed, and full of POV. Just to name a few, you are being selective about sources, citing blogs and unreliable webpages, removing an acadmic source, and clutreing the lead with ciation. You need to get a consesus for your edits, edit-warring will not get you anywhere. --Wayiran (talk) 14:40, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Greetings, and thank you for your response. The sources that I added were:

The Seattle Times

The Straits Times

Chicago Tribune

The Washington Post

ABC Evening News

The CIA

And three books: "The Iran-Iraq War: Chaos in a Vacuum", "Middle East Contemporary Survey: 1987", and "Saudi Arabia: Government, Society and the Gulf Crisis"

Which of these is a blog or is unreliable ?! Which of my edits is POV !? Unflavoured (talk) 15:07, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Those sources are not necessarily neutral and academic, and they need to be attributed. However, I do not see where in the article they are referenced.. It seems you are referencing sources that use those sources (blogs), which is a different issue since blogs are not allowed in WIkipedia. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 17:38, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

There seems to be some misunderstanding. What blog are you talking about ?! Please explain, since both you and Wayiran mentioned blogs. Thank you. Unflavoured (talk) 18:48, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I mean the Martin Kramer source (this seems like a blog rather than a serious scholar.. what is his academic background)? Also the numbers seem to be disputed, why just mention Saudi numbers? --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 21:54, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Ah !! You mean this: [7], yes ?! I suspected that this might be it. This is not a blog. This is a chapter from a published book: [8]. You can view nearly all of the chapter here: [9], it is the chapter titled "Khomeini’s Messengers in Mecca." In any case, I have been trying to quote/cite the book directly, instead of using the webpage. Take a look: [10]. Unflavoured (talk) 22:07, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Okay but the source you brought states: ""Martin Kramer was director of the Moshe Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and African Studies at Tel Aviv University and is now currently Senir Middle East Advisor to the 2008 Presidential campaign of Rudy Giuliani".. this seem like a non-neutral source (campaigining for Rudy Giuliani and being frankly from a country that is not on the best term with the Iranian government), I think at least the source needs to be attributed and not taken as a fact. Probably, we need some serious university and academic scholars with no political ties to any country that has analyzed this issue from a 3rd party perspective. Else just putting Saudi numbers in the introduction or using such sources in the introduction seems to violate WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT. Unfortunately, I do not want to spend too much time on this issue (I do not like modern political articles and I am not a political person nor do I like any of the governments in region), but I think it is best to try to first find a serious academic 3rd party source that has written in detail about this event, and has given all the viewpoints. As hard as this might be, I think should be the first step to see if such a source can be found. Campaign advisor for Rudy Giuliani though is outside of the bound of neutrality as would be quoted say an Iranian government official... --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 02:35, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

So basically you are saying: "We cannot use an American as a source." I am sorry, but that is not acceptable. Martin Kramer has been used in the article as a source since January 2006, and no one claimed that he was not neutral. Unflavoured (talk) 03:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

NO you did not understand what I said. First, there is no such thing as an American source.. we are discussing an indivual with political leaning and involvement. It cannot be seen as absolute truth, but rather the source needs to be attributed...like "Martin Kramer who is the director of X and campaigned for Rudy Guliani believes that: "Y"..". Because the source is hardly academic. Furthermore, what I said is that we must look at 3rd party unbiased sources (if they exist) that describe this massacare. Then at the same time, put the views of Saudi Arabia, Iran and also such people as Martin Kramer.. That will create a balanced article. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 04:03, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Kramer's book was published in 1996. How does his political affiliation in 2008 figure into that ?! Furthermore, if you take the time to actually read the chapter in question, you will find that it gives good coverage of both sides of the story, and thus is NPOV. Unflavoured (talk) 04:09, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Either way, there is nothing that shows the book is neutral and also the person is part of a country not on the best term with IRI.. I am not saying who is right or wrong, but rather, any quote from the person needs to be attributed rather than taken as a fact. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 08:11, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, if that is the case, then there is no problem, as there is nothing that shows the book is biased. Thank you. Unflavoured (talk) 11:16, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: here. Text added in 2007. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. NortyNort (Holla) 11:26, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

It seems that the content was pasted from which was cited at the time, which infringed on that book and may have infringed on other sources as well. Additional content was pasted from that geocities website which has now also been removed. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:20, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

The material in question, are essential to the context of the article, they should be restored as attributed quotations per our copyright guidelines, which clearly states "Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea." Kurdo777 (talk) 13:26, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I responded here to the similar comment on my talk.--NortyNort (Holla) 13:28, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Recent POV edits

This edit [11] was made without consensus. If it was a neutral edit, it would be fine, but this presents the Irani POV as fact. Please use neutral terms, and do not engage in POV pushing. Present both sides of the argument, and do not put the blame exclusively on one side. Please revert this edit to present NPOV. Thank you. Unflavoured (talk) 05:06, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually, you're the one engaged in POV pushing, using primary sources from 1987 to present Saudi apologist claims from 25 years ago like "we did not shoot anyone, they all died in a stampede", which have since been proven to be false, by independent academic third-party sources, as facts. My edits were supported by ACADEMIC SPECIALIST SOURCES which outweigh your cherry-picked outdated primary sources/partisan sources. Also, you seem to be using the non-standard non-English "Irani" as a derogatory term to flame other editors. You're just asking to get blocked, what can I say. Kurdo777 (talk) 16:23, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

POV-pushing is when you present a POV as fact. NPOV is correctly showing both sides of the story, without lending more weight or credibility to one side over the other. And please do not remove the Prince Bandar response. I made it abundantly clear that Prince Bandar's response is Prince Bandar's response, and did not present it as fact. And the LA Times is not a primary source, so that is no excuse. Unflavoured (talk) 17:45, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

NPOV and showing "both sides of the story" does not mean putting Saudi claims which have been proven to be false by third-parties on equal footing as the neutral facts supported by academics and historians. Please familiarize yourself with WP:Undue. Kurdo777 (talk) 18:30, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I would like to take this opportunity to state once more that I firmly believe that a person should follow one's own advice before sharing it. The opinion that the demonstrators were absolutely innocent, and that the Saudi response was completely unprovoked... is actually the minority opinion. The article, as it is now written, reverses this and gives more weight to the minority opinion, which is contrary to the understanding of people who have taken the time to familiarize themselves with WP:Undue. Thank you. Unflavoured (talk) 18:36, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

It's actually the prevalent non-partisan opinion by respected academics and historians, and that's all that counts in Wikipedia. What your Sheikh or Prince and their friends may thinks or believe, is irrelevant in Wikipedia. Kurdo777 (talk) 18:46, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually, Prince Bandar's words on the subject are quite relevant. They show the general opinion of Saudi officials regarding the riot, something which is quite important to the article. Unflavoured (talk) 18:50, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

"The general opinion of Saudi officials" is the key phrase here. Not a statement of fact, which is why the claims should be given only some weight, and clearly attributed to the officials as direct quotes as is the case now, no thanks to you by the way. Now on the other hand, an academic or historian refuting the Saudi officials' false claims, is indeed a statement of fact, as it comes from a third-party academic source. For example you removed "unarmed" as "POV", because the Saudis claim otherwise, that's not how Wikipedia works though. Professor David P. Dolan says "Saudi forces killed more than 400 unarmed Muslim rioters", that means they were unarmed as far as the academic position is concerned, and that's the only position we care about for statements of facts, and what your Sheikh or Prince's opinion on this matter, is irrelevant as far as statements of facts go.Kurdo777 (talk) 19:11, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Allow me to clarify: Some sources claim that the demonstrators were innocent and unarmed, and the Saudi police had attacked them without provocation. Other sources say the exact opposite. This is a controversial issue, and both sides of the argument must be presented to the reader, in accordance with the policies and guidelines set by Wikipedia. Unflavoured (talk) 19:20, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Don't play with words. We evaluate sources. If by "some sources" you mean Saudi sources, and primary sources quoting Saudi officials, they're worthless in comparison to academic 3rd party sources. Kurdo777 (talk) 19:25, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Maybe my words are a bit difficult to comprehend, so I am going to present it in a different manner, hoping that you will understand what I am trying to say. An incident occurred in Saudi Arabia. Many statements were issued regarding this incident, showing the views of the different parties involved. These statements were reported by multiple sources. It is vital that these statements be included in the article. Included, not as fact, but included in a NEUTRAL manner, and clearly indicating who made these statements. If you give the POV of one side, and not include the POV of the other, then you are POV-pushing. If you present the POV of one side as the truth, and ignore the other side, then that is POV-pushing as well. I hope that makes things clear. Thank you. Unflavoured (talk) 19:38, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

You seem to have a misunderstanding about what NPOV actually means. Statements are one thing, facts are another. Both Saudi and Iranian statements should be given equal weight. But neither one can be given equal weight as FACTS reported by neutral academics and historians whose views , research and findings should set the tone of the article. By your logic, and your reading of NPOV, half of Armenian Genocide page should be dedicated to the Turkish official revisionist opinion that there was no genocide, when academics and historians say there was. By the same token, Saudis claim that they didn't shoot at people, when academics and historians say they did. In which case, the Saudi claim cannot be given equal weight as the academic opinion/findings/research. Kurdo777 (talk) 23:03, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

This is a controversial case. What you consider to be facts, others consider to be myths. Plenty of academics and historians lean towards the Saudi POV, and oppose the claims made by Iran on the issue. But if I were to insert Saudi opinion into the article as fact, then that would be POV-pushing, even though it is backed by academics and historians. In the same manner, inserting pro-Irani opinion as fact is also POV-pushing. The neutral way to approach things is to FAIRLY present both sides of the argument, and clearly point out who is claiming what, and let the reader read the article without the POV of either side presented as the truth. Thank you. Unflavoured (talk) 03:24, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Alternative titles

Each one of the alternative titles CAN BE REFERENCED. We just don't use references for titles in the lead, it's bad practice, so please don't shove a reference in the title section, in order to list your preferred alternative title first. The alternative titles should be listed in alphabetical order, as they are now. And they can all be referenced, so this is an exercise in futility. Kurdo777 (talk) 18:41, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Article issues

Greetings. The current issues that I feel need to be addressed are:

1- NPOV. It is very clear that there are two sides of the incident: Iranian pilgrims and Saudi security. As a results, it is easy to find pro-Iranian POV statements that present the pilgrims as fully innocent, and that they were attacked for absolutely no reason, and that they were unarmed and had only good intentions, that all the deaths came from Saudi firing, etc etc. It is just as easy to find pro-Saudi sources that present the exact opposite picture: That the Iranis were instigators, and that the riot was premeditated and planned, and that the pilgrims were armed to the teeth, and that all the death were purely a result of the stampede, etc etc. For this article to be neutral, we must present both sides fairly, and not give either POV more weight, or treat either POV as fact.

2- Naming. The article name is clearly a source of dispute. No need to elaborate here, as there is a rather section detailing the issue on this talk page already.

3- Riot details. That includes the number of deaths, who started what, etc etc. It falls under NPOV, but if you take a look now, the lede says that Saudis shot and killed 400 people, while the main section states that 85 of those killed were from the Saudi police. There are conflicting reports on the details, and as such this must be clarified.

4- History section. The details of previous demonstrations, the origin of the demonstrations, the past actions of Saudi officials regarding the demonstrations, are all important aspects of this incident. But instead of all that, we have currently two letters, one from King Khalid to Saddam Husien, and the other from Khalid to Khomenei, and a third message from Khomenei to the pilgrims, taking up nearly half the section. Of course, the letters and messages may help the reader's understanding of the issue, but important details about the demonstration itself is what matters most. Currently, details of prior demonstrations are confined to two measly sentences.

These are the issues that I feel stand out most. I hope we can discuss how we can improve these issues now, so that we can have an informative, neutral, balanced article that is worthy of being included in an encyclopedia. Thank you. Unflavoured (talk) 21:02, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Ok, so let us start with the lede. According to policy, the lead should define the topic, summarize the article, while not giving undue weight. Since this is a controversial topic, there will be parts both sides agree on, and parts both sides disagree on.

1-Both sides agree that there was an incident, and both sides agree on the date. Both sides agree that there were tensions between Saudi Arabia and Iran, even before this particular incident in 1987. Both sides agree that there was march (or a demonstration) that was stopped by the police just before it reached the end of its planned route. Both sides agree that there was a scuffle/melee/confrontation between the demonstrators and the police. Both sides agree that there was a resulting deadly stampede.

2-There is (obviously) a disagreement on who is to blame for these deaths. There is a disagreement on whether the Saudi police fired on the protesters or not (though this one is mostly by the Saudis). There is a disagreement on whether the pilgrims were armed or not. There is a disagreement on whether the majority of deaths were caused by the firing or the stampede. There is a disagreement on WHO died: Some sources states only pilgrims died, other sources give the number of Saudi police who died. There is a disagreement on the number of deaths.

My proposal is to leave out the most controversial parts (who is to blame, who was innocent, etc), other than the ones that are critical to the lead, such as the number of dead. We can also add a sentence in the lead to clearly indicate that there is a controversy, so that the reader knows about it. We can include the non-disputed parts without putting the blame on either party. For example (and re-using part of the current lead):

"The 1987 Mecca Massacre, also known as the 1987 Mecca Incident or 1987 Mecca Riot, occurred on 31 July 1987 as a result of escalating tensions between Iran and Saudi Arabia. Iranian pilgrims had held an annual demonstration against Israel and the United States, but in 1987, a cordon of Saudi police and National Guards had sealed part of the planned demonstration route, leading to a confrontation between them and the pilgrims. This escalated into a violent clash, followed by a deadly stampede. There is a controversy regarding the details of the incident, with both Iran and Saudi Arabia laying much of the blame on the other side. Some sources claim the death toll from the incident was 402 people: 275 Iranian pilgrims, 85 Saudi police, and 42 pilgrims from other nationalities. Other sources claim that more than 400 pilgrims had died, and thousands more injured."

So how is it ?! Unflavoured (talk) 04:00, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the history section, maybe instead of having these letters from Khalid to Saddam and Khomenei, we can elaborate further on the history of these demonstrations. Also, the current wording of the sentence: "There was also a clash in 1981 in Mecca and Medina between Iranian pilgrims and Saudi police" does not make it clear that that incident involved the same "Distancing ourselves from polythiests" demonstrations as the 1987 incident. Perhaps we can go along the lines of what I wrote here: [12], though I suspect the second-to-last paragraph is too wordy and too detailed, now that I am rereading it. Any suggestions ?! Unflavoured (talk) 17:04, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

On the demonstrations section: This section is simply too short, and has too few details. Considering that the article itself is about the demonstration, we should expand this. Perhaps by detailing who ( if any ) important figures were there, where the demonstration started and where it ended ( the planned route ), where the Saudi police stopped the demonstration, the escalation of the demonstration into a riot, the Saudi firing on the crowd, the details of the stampede... there are many details that we can add. Currently, the only details are: "Saudi police fired on the demonstrators" and "the number of dead was so and so." This is hardly sufficient, as a normal reader would expect more information from a typical Wikipedia article. Unflavoured (talk) 10:47, 19 May 2011 (UTC)