Talk:Northeastern United States

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by HokieRNB (talk | contribs) at 20:45, 8 December 2020 (→‎Inclusion of all NE states in map). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Culturally diverse region?

In the intro to the article it states: "the Northeastern region is the nation's most economically developed, densely populated, and culturally diverse region". Which appears to be a direct quote from one of the sources. I don't quibble to much with the first two. But culturally diverse? Maybe considering New York or New Jersey....but most of that region is heavily white. Especially the New England States. There are states in the deep south (for example) that have larger percentages of minorities than any state in the Northeast.....so I have to question that statement.Rja13ww33 (talk) 21:51, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A region being "heavily white" doesn't mean it isn't also "culturally diverse". Having "larger percentages of minorities" doesn't make a state "culturally diverse". Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 11:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, but even the cited sources for the statement don't say that (at least that I see). If we are going to run with such a nebulous statement, it should be sourced somewhere.Rja13ww33 (talk) 04:25, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the cited source (World Regional Geography) explicitly states on page 647, "Of the five regions of the United States, the Northeast is the most intensively developed, densely populated, ethnically diverse, and culturally intricate." Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 18:32, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It says "ethnically diverse" not culturally. (I was inaccurate in my original statement.) So I still take issue with the "culturally diverse" statement as it is unsourced and somewhat nebulous.Rja13ww33 (talk) 18:58, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion of all NE states in map

The version that had been worked on over the years gained consensus in 2014 and has served its purpose well for more than 5 years. There is no good reason to take a step backward to the less inclusive map that was rejected. So the correct path would be to have the discussion here before changing it again. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 14:21, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the edit by Lone Internaut was just. The light pink states on the map are a product of synthesis, especially gradations within the pink area. A similar problem arose in the Southern United States article many years ago and it was decided to use the Census map rather than gradations which are generally created by opinion and randomized sources found on internet searches. Dubyavee (talk) 17:24, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have much to add to what Dubyavee said, I agree. Other secondary definitions, besides the one used by the Census, can be wrote down the article text, but as far as the main map (and the data) in the template is concerned, we should used one map, with one color, one single clear and official definition, which is the Census' one. The fact the actual map was used for more than 5 years does not delegitimize a legit change. Lone Internaut (talk) 01:08, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, the map should continue to show the broader area that is generally known as the American Northeast. Similar to Southwestern United States, Northwestern United States, and Southeastern United States, all of which have maps showing regions of varying degrees of certainty. Consensus has long been overwhelmingly in favor of including Delaware and Maryland, so they should be included on the primary map. I think the fact that the same editor has reintroduced the map three times and been reverted by multiple editors is enough to delegitimize the change. HokieRNB 12:40, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The pink area of the map is original research, particularly the gradations of shading, obviously based on internet searches and not reliably sourced. No one really believes West Virginia is part of the northeast. What is represented in your map is actually Lost Cause ideology and is a result of the work of sociologist Howard W. Odum. Odum was described as "Born near Mount Pleasant, Georgia, to a family of small fundamentalist farmers, Odum imbibed southern patriotism from his grandfathers, both [Confederate] Civil War veterans." In 1936 Odum published his highly influential work "Southern Regions of the United States". He distilled his research into a map titled "Rank of States Based on Twenty-Three Cultural Tables", which you can see here [1]. When Odum drew up the regions he dropped a loop down from the Northeast and included West Virginia, without explaining his decision. However, sociologist Rupert Bayless Vance revealed in his book "Regionalism and the South" that Odum based the removal of WV from the south on what Odum believed was the Civil War history of the state and nothing else. Odum based his decision on a states' support of the Confederacy, though he kept Kentucky in the south. Modern research has shown however that WV was more supportive of the Confederacy than KY, so Odum's change to the map was not just ideological but also historically wrong. The great popularity of the book among universities and government agencies, particularly during the expansion of government agencies under FDR, meant that the regional maps created by Odum would be reflected in hundreds of government and academic publications for decades. You can see an example of this in a 1940 publication by the Dept. of Education which uses Odum's work to put WV in the Northeast.[2] This is the reason why, for the most part, there is a greater frequency of WV showing up in definitions of the Northeast, and it is based on Odum's 'Lost Cause' mentality which totally ignored the results of his own research. Dubyavee (talk) 16:49, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The regions linked by Hokie are not the same regions as the main four well defined by United States Census Bureau and like the one the article is concerned, so it's a different thing, not useful to bring them here. I think Dubyavee pretty much exposed the whole thing and I still support to edit the article. Also basically only 2 users reverted my edits and I don't think that is absolutely not enough to delegitimize a legit edit. Lone Internaut (talk) 18:19, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the pink areas on the map are there because the Environmental Protection Agency, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the National Fish and Wildlife Service, and the National Park Service all include states in the Northeast that aren't included in the Census Bureau's definition. So when you say "no one really believes West Virginia is part of the northeast," that sounds more like original research to me. Or personal preference. Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with you that West Virginia isn't really northeastern in character. But the reliable sources disagree. I am nearly 100% certain that no one considered the work of Howard Odum in shading this map. It was done merely based on the preponderance of reliable sources. This article is not merely about a region defined by the census bureau, so it makes no sense to limit the map to only that definition. HokieRNB 20:45, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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