Talk:Race (human categorization)

Let's discuss improvements for the article.

Because that's what talk pages are for, let's discuss here what improvements would be good to make to the article once full protection is removed. My immediate comment is that it would be good to shorten the article, by relying more on published secondary sources that give examples of treating this topic in a summary, encyclopedic manner. Does anyone have suggestions of such sources that haven't already been referred to in this article? -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 16:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Efforts have been made to shorten this article in the past, with very mixed results, and I am dubious. My feeling is, Wikipedia is not paper, and complex topics need longer articles. Past attempts to shorten often left things out of context. This led to a predictable cycle, if you have been around Wikipedia long enough: first, someone cuts the reasons for a position, saying only the conclusion matters. Then, someone comes along and finds that position impossible to believe, and asks for more citations, or identifies it as a fringe view, or keeps it as is, but then begins another paragraph that starts "But most people believe (and then a paragraph explicating the opposite view). I think a better strategy is to provide as much detail as necessary to explain the major views, but to strive to find the simplets and clearest language possible to express it, and rely heavily on hypertext and a really good introduction that is a roadmap to the article helping people figure out which section they really wish to read. You know how EP has a "micropedia" and then the full version? I think WP should and will move to a model of longer introductions that provide the main points summary style with links so people can decide what they wish to read about in greater detail by navigating the page sucessfully.

That said, if you guys want to shorten the whole article, okay but I urge you to move ANY material deleted from this article to a linked article i.e. each major section of this article should be a summary of a longer linked article that goes into full detail. If some of these sections are not already summaries of longer articles, create new articles using the entire sectionl then provide a link to it in this article and write a summary.

I have found WeijiBaikeBianji and Vecrumba to both be very reasonable, thoughtful and well-informed editors and if both of you agree on specific major edits, well, I won't get in the way. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

٩(-̮̮̃-̃)۶·Maunus·ƛ· 19:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I may be talkative and verbose at times, not to mention my penchant for text decoration, but there's no desire to usurp wider discussion! :-) PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 20:34, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

And Maunus too!!! I would be quite please if the three of yo constituted an informal commitee, worked on a revision at one person's sandbox, and presented it to us. i for one would have high confidence in any thing you three agree to. But step one is a coherent strategy for linked pges that together cover all major and discree topics. !!!!

Thanks for your participation. I have been digging into current textbooks about general genetics and human genetics, to get a sense of what the mainstream biological view of race is. Yes, please feel free to start a draft of a slimmed-down and sourced-up article for all of us (anyone who surfs by and wants to help) to comment on. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 22:30, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

This article is no longer full protected, so you can edit at will. Presumably, some administrators will be keeping a close eye on changes here. I'll scramble to gather up more sources before starting many substantive edits, so feel free to dig in and fix what needs fixing meanwhile. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 20:21, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Has much thought been given to Vecrumba's questioning what is the particular thesis of this article? It's still confusing to me where this fits in the lineup. We have this article, of course, and also Race and genetics, Historical definitions of race, Social interpretations of race, Human genetic variation, while we have no Folk races or Race as a social construct, which is surprising to me since the latter is used so often in social sciences and the former so often even in the biological sciences. Also we don't have an article Racial classification (this one redirects to Historical definitions of race which is about human race, not the more general race in biology). Yet we do have Race (biology) which is an absolutely useless, insensible article, imo, and lends no help whatsoever to understanding why race as defined in biology doesn't see examples in humans.

The subject is as complicated in real life as it is here on wikipedia, I'm sure. But if I could sketch out the basic gist of what comes through to me when reading a fairly broad sampling of sources used here is that there are two types of definitions of race in humans: one can be labeled folk conceptions of race and other scientific conceptions of race. And there was a long period of time in which pseudo-scientific conceptions of race took hold which were labeled "biology" or "science" but were really "folk". Then the pendulum went away from biology back toward folk in the so-called expert realm, even though the old pseudo-scientific ideas (folk race mislabeled science) lingered in the minds of the general public. Even though there's a debate (obviously) over whether or not race is biological, I think there's broad agreement from both sides to this overall background. However I would say there is something of an ongoing confusion/debate about how far the pendulum swung the other way such that at one extreme end are the "race is 100% non-biological" against the opposite extreme "race is obviously biological." While in the middle battles rage over nuances, definitions and caveats, much of it talking past each other and instead rebutting the extremists on either end-which I'm not sure to what degree actually exist.

Sorry for what's now a long winded attempt to say that I think the middle needs describing better because when the debate is overly focused on the "between two extremes" model the nuances, definitions and caveats in the middle get misapplied. For example, those on the "race is obviously biological", may invoke the work of somebody like Cavalli-Sforza who doesn't think this, while somebody on the "race is 100% non-biological" will invoke Lewontin who also doesn't think this. Since folk race has no classificatory scheme that I know of, I think a more general article about "human races" might be warranted, one which gives the broader overview of the universe of definitions today (including what it means as a biological classification as well as those that are "socially defined", "self-identified", etc). Beyond that, this one could be the niche for discussing the ins-and-outs of race in terms of a biological sub-classification in the human species, including how it does or doesn't correlate to the classic racial scheme. Professor marginalia (talk) 23:43, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I thought the whole length of the question was helpful. I've been gathering books about general biology, general genetics, human genetics, general behavioral genetics, and human behavioral genetics for a while now, to add to a new citations list, and what is striking to me so far is how few of the most current secondary sources in those disciplines even mention race, especially race as categorized in the United States, in any context. Population genetics is mentioned a fair amount, but no one agrees about categories anymore, because the genetic information has been too nuanced for the old straitjacket categories. Those categories seem to appear in current literature only in a shrinking minority of primary studies, outnumbered by other studies that take different approaches. This prompts me to think I need to look soon at some of the articles related to this article to see if they are up to date with current literature and sourced mostly with unreplicated primary studies or with authoritative secondary textbooks and practitioner handbooks. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 00:03, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I would like to contribute to this discussion by addressing the question of, "What is this article about" and "how does it fit in with other related articles?" (following on Professor Marginalia's comment). My approach to answering any question like this is to look at the history. This article is one of the oldest articles at Wikipedia; it was created back in 2001 i.e. within the first year of WP's existence. If you want to know what the original author's intention was in writing this article, I will quote for you the first three paragraphs:

A race is the taxonomic concept of a group of people associated by heredity, geography, culture, religion, and politics. Heredity is especially emphasized, as those who developed the concept in the 18th and 19th centuries appealed to and were inspired by the evolutionary biological concepts being developed at the time.

The historical definition of race, before the development of evolutionary biology, was that of common lineage, a vague concept interchangeable with species, breed, cultural origin, or characteristic quality. ("The whole race of mankind." --Shakespeare; "Whence the long race of Alban fathers come" --Dryden

The 19th-century anthropological concept of race was based on morphological characteristics such as skin colour, facial characteristics and amount and type of hair. Though such characteristics have since been shown to have a minimal relationship with any other heritable characteristics, it retains popularity because it is easy to immediately distinguish people based on physical appearance.

So, clearly, this article is about either "the human race" or "how the concept of race applies to humans." I realize there is some wriggle room in between these two descriptions, but I think it is fair to say that for most of its history for most editors this article has been about one or both of these things or something in between them. At certain times during its history this article included what some editors considered major racial taxonomies e.g. Carlton Coon's. So a major part of this article was an account of different human races. For most of its history however this kind of section was excluded from the article. It was decided among editors that we would have separate articles for specific races (which led to other debates - look at articles like "white people" "white race" "races of Europe" "ethnic groups of Europe"); this article would cover debates about the concept of race in relation to humans.

The disambiguation page dates back to 2007 so you see, compared to the existence of this article, the question of "what other articles should there be" and "what is their logical relation or arrangement" came pretty late.

These are my main recollections. 'First' that there were some debates that heavily overlapped but were formulated in terms of different questions:

• a debate between evolutionary biologists versus zoologists - it appeared that zoologists still use the word "race" when referring to varieties of plants and animals, while most evolutionary biologists studying plants and animals do not use the word "race."

• a debate over whether races are natural or socially constructed. As you might have guessed, people with a background in evolutionary biology were more likely to say "socially constructed" and people with a background in zoology were more likelly to say "natural."

• so should we have one article on the biological concept of race, or two articles, one for humans and one for all other animals and plants? Most zoologists insisted on the latter. many other people came up with different answers to this question for different reasons.

Second there was a separate debate over the length of this article. Even if we restricted it to "race in relation to humans" if following NPOV we were to include ALL significant views on "race" as it has been applied to humans, this article would be three or four times the recommended limit for WP articles. The standard practice when an article gets too long is to turn each section into its own article, and either create a disambiguation page or (as in this case, and the Jesus article, and several others) keep the article but for each section (which now has its own article) just have a concise summary. But this means that the character of linked articles depends on the contents of this article. And in the time I have been here this article has gone through at least four major revisions, so major I'd say four fundamentally different versions (even if there was a lot of overlap). It is fair to say that these revisions have all involved debates over whether race is natural or a social construction. Take a sample of article versions from 2004, 2006, 2008, and 2010 and you will find different tables of contents. Do you see? If the tables of contents are different, it will lead us to spin off different articles. Articles spun off at one time may all fit together logically. Articles spun off at different times may well not fit together logically

So the reason for the state of the disambiguation page is that the division of articles is the result of two different sets of debates, one involving evolutionary biologists and zoologists and others that was resolved by treating humans and non-humans differently, and another over the contents and organization of the article on race among humans. In both debates, "natural or social construction" came up, but it was resolved differently based on different facts and criteria.

When the disambiguation page was first created, this article was called "Race (anthropology)" and then someone changed it to "Race (human)" but whatever it was called, I think there has been one major continuity - namely, that this article shoul dmore or less be about whatever this article was about when it was first created in 2001 (see the quotes above). I hope this is useful information.

I think we need an article that is about "race" as the term has been applied to humans, and that reflects research by scientists (including social scientists) and historians on race in relation to humans. A LOT of people turn to an encyclopedia to learn just about this. If the research is isomorphic with that of research by biologists on other genera, well, okay, but I see this as a secondary question. Then the next issue is, what views to include and how to organize them. I think it was a big advance when someone introduced the table from Long and Kittles 2003 summarizing four biological views of race, because it was a reliable secondary source identifying four significant points of view. That race is a social construction is another view that has to be included. In the context of explaining these five views, two other issues came up that I think have a place in this article: first, when biologists and sociologists use a word differently, we need to explain why - this was less controversial and complicated with regard to the word "race" than it was to the word "lineage;" molecular geneticists use the word lineage but in a way that has no relation to the way sociologists or social anthropologists or even novelists or plain people use the word; explaining this took some time an dintroduced another distinction, between how molecular geneticists interpret Y-haplotype and MtDNA data versus the way these terms are used by people in the "heritage" business who use the word in their marketing. Finally, in explaining how race may be a social construction, it was decided that we needed to explain how poulation geneticists talk about genetic variation without using the word "race," which led to sections on "population" and "cline." I am trying to explain the process by which the article developed the sections it has. I think we need to bear all this in mind when considering reorganizing this and linked articles. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:03, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I do not think aticles should have "arguments" or "points" because this leads us to violate NPOV and often NOR as well. But if there were to be an argument, I would say, discuss Franz Boas's basic argument - the point he and his students were making was pretty simple: human genetic variation and cultural variation are not reducible, one to the other. When Boas was writing, people inside and outside of the academy used "race" to refer to groups that were both biologically and culturally distinct from other groups. You still see this today when people use the word ethnicity as a euphamism for race (because they understand neither word) and then insist that ethnicity is biological, which voids the whole reason for using the word ethnicity instead of race to begin with. Since people use the word "race" to refer both to biological and cultural variation, I think it is unavoidable that an article on race say somethign about genetic variation, and also say something about cultural variation. Some people will argue that if the two are incommensurable or simply different things, they belong in different articles. But since peopel regularly use the word "race" in ways that brings biology and culture back together, I think the "race" article has to explain how it is that genetic and cultural variation have distinct mechanisms. And we need to explain why many times it appears that biological and cultural difference go together (the reason is actually prtty simple: since Columbus, the forced or voluntary movment of people from one continent to another has regularly placed them into distinct economic niches that are often politically as well as economically unequal. This does not always happen, but it often happens, and when it does, people who are biologically different, because they come from different continents, will also remain culturally distinct or develop new cultural differences, because they are economically segregated from others - that is to say, social segregation replaces geographic separation (Eric Wolf 1982 Europe and the People without History p 380; see also Marvin Harris Patterns of Race in the Americas and Peter Wade Race and Ethnicity in Latin America), Slrubenstein | Talk 14:25, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that, that was really valuable—and will require several re-readings(!). There might be some parallels regarding zoology where taxonomies are constructed based on observable characteristics—orderings of nature which genetics subsequently has proven or disproven. There do appear to be outliers among those studying genetics who disagree with the widely accepted view of in-population and between-population differences with regard to "races", but I need to do more reading before I can suggest a cogent statement or content on that—not extensive quotations. I would agree that this needs to be the article which brings together all the multi (but never completely separable)-disciplinary views of humans as organized along "racial" lines. Let me know if I'm misinterpreting! PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 14:55, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I think you have it right. I would just underscore (1) that at crucial points in entrenched edit conflicts, Lieberman et. al. 1992, and Long and Kittles 2003, were both imensely helpful secondary sources for clarifying distinct points of view. But it has been a while since I immersed myself in this literature and I applaud you guys for looking at what has come out since then. Actually, I think the last really major overhaul of this article was around 2005 so any sources since then, especially really good secondary sources (and Alland's book comes to mind) really probably would be most valuable resources.

Anyway, I think the key thing is to imagine an omnibus article on "race," what are the distinct debates, and within those the distinct POVs, and how best to organize it ... and then decide what the linked articles should be, even if this requires merging or renaming some of the articles currently at the disambiguation page. I think all of you guys currently working on the article understand that the worst way to edit-war and degrade the quality of an article is when you take a view expressed in one context and use it in a different context. I can tell you that the current structure of the article was an attempt to provide a clear context for every view. I can also tell you that the most persistant erosion of the quality of the article was not done by real POV pushers, but by countless independent editors who, wherever they saw any explaination of race as a social construction, added "but most scientists disagree." The point is not that this statement is wrong. The point is that the article ought to have a whole section, or multiple sections, for scientists who express different views. But some reads the article and they think that whatever view they believe in, it has to be expressed in every section. So we move from an article with many sections each covering a different debate and a different view of race, to an article with many sections each of which repeats the same thing: some people say race is real, others say it is socially constructed. In every section. Then the article grows, gets too long, and the whole organization is a mess. It is death by a thousand small cuts, and each editor claims to be making the article "NPOV" but the problem is each editor is adding a point that already appears, just in a different section. So I think it is a complex topic that demands many different sections, and the problem is that the introduction and table of contents never provided a foolproof roadmap to the article, so people reading one section and getting pissed off would know that the other points of views are represented in later sections or other issues (like MtDNA research) are covered, just in a later section. The biggest challenge in my experience is an effective organization.

I do not have the Wade book on hand, but I think it is very valuable and I hope someone can find it. Another problem that makes it hard to come up with a good organization is: there is a good deal of research on the social construction of race in latin America. But most research on race as a biological distinction takes place in the US. Since the research is asymmetric, strage contradictions end up in the article - claims are made about biological difference that are true in the US but not Brazil or the Dominican Republic. But the research in Brazil was not reproduced in the US, and the research in the US was not reproduced in Brazil. So some sections end up being US - centric and others Brazil-centric. I do not know the solution to this. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:25, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree-I think maybe if the POV pushing is better curtailed, all these various aspects can be described more cogently. Now it's a bit like a tumble down the rabbit-hole, a kind of "Race can mean A, B, C or D. It used to be thought that race was Z." This is followed by in-depth discourse about Z, what's wrong with Z, different ways of measuring-grouping-clustering Z, quotes about Z, who still uses Z, who is marketing genealogy with Z. And after dispensing with Z, the A-B-C-D which we led with is largely treated as an afterthought, almost a catch-phrase, for left overs after sweeping up all the "Not Z". I'm still inclined to see the term "classification" in its Linnaean sense. I agree that the key piece is the omnibus article. And we don't need to put the cart ahead of the horse, but I'm thinking that a title with "classification" would muddy the picture given by the omnibus treatment. It would be voluminous to go into the various attempts and missteps in applying a classification scheme of race in modern humans (species/sub-species/cline/clade/ecotype etc). And if such efforts warrant describing in an article here, I don't think the best place for it is the omnibus article-there I think it should be left to the situation as it stands now. For example (I could be wrong so please correct me), haven't scientists moved beyond the multi-regional hypothesis and notions of race as sub-species? Maybe I need more coffee, but I think a clearer treatment would be to move away from this overemphasis on describing race this way: "Race as X" followed by several paragraphs about why it's not X, "Race as Y" followed by several paragraphs why it's not Y, and "Race as Z" followed by "so again no, race is not Z". What I'm saying is that while the general public may have mistaken ideas about how closely genetics aligns with it, in the everyday world people define race socially and culturally, not genetically. For example, people generally tell clinicians what race they belong to, not the other way around. We need more about how people define race, and maybe much less emphasis on the ways geneticists today don't anymore.Professor marginalia (talk) 18:02, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Let's focus on what medically reliable sources say about race, if anything.

I'll draw more attention to something I've found as I compile source lists to share with Wikipedians. While gathering books about general biology, general genetics, human genetics, general behavioral genetics, and human behavioral genetics over the last few months, to add to a new citations list, what is noteworthy is how few of the most current secondary sources in those disciplines even mention race, especially race as categorized in the United States, in any context. Population genetics is mentioned a fair amount, but no one agrees about categories anymore, because the genetic information has been too nuanced for the old straitjacket categories. Those categories seem to appear in current literature only in a shrinking minority of primary studies, outnumbered by other studies that take different approaches. Plenty of examples are published in the current textbooks of medically interesting genes that occur in multiple populations that usually aren't categorized into the same "race" category. This prompts me to think I need to look soon at some of the articles related to this article to see if they are up to date with current literature and sourced mostly with unreplicated primary studies or with authoritative secondary textbooks and practitioner handbooks. What sources do you have at hand? How many reliable, recent secondary sources mention race prominently or even at all? Specific citations would be very helpful for this discussion. P.S. The Wikipedia guideline on identifying reliable sources in medicine is an excellent research guide for this topic. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 18:39, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I believe that this is the leading textbook for physical anthropology. Slrubenstein | Talk

A few other crucial articles:

• Nadia Abu El-Haj 2007 "The Genetic Reinscription of Race" Annual Review of Anthropology Vol. 36: 283-300
• William W. Dressler, Kathryn S. Oths, Clarence C. Gravlee 2005 "RACE AND ETHNICITY IN PUBLIC HEALTH RESEARCH: Models to Explain Health Disparities" Annual Review of Anthropology Vol. 34: 231-252
• B F Williams 1989 "A Class Act: Anhropology and the Race to Nation Across Ethnic Terrain" Annual Review of Anthropology Vol. 18: 401-444
• C C Snow 1982 "Forensic Anthropology" Annual Review of Anthropology Vol. 11: 97-131 (since many supporters of the race concept come rom this field, which really means it is a view from law enforcement).

Annual Reviews is highly reviewedn and an authoritative source and its reviw essays are sources of the literature considered most significant in the field. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:46, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you managing your list or would you like me to add these? KI thought you miht wish to check them out first. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:50, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Slrubenstein, I just realized you asked me a question earlier that I haven't answered specifically. The answer is that any Wikipedian is welcome to add source suggestions (or comments about sources already posted) to the suggestions page of the bibliography on subjects related to this article. The more, the merrier. People who post citations to that page will see those posted there immediately--that page operates like any talk page--and over time I'll read and digest sources (as I obtain them from libraries here) and add them to the main pages of the source list, which will be in copy-and-paste cite tag form for insertion into articles all over Wikipedia. Thanks for suggesting sources here based on your knowledge of the literature. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 21:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry, but race is not a medical condition. Race is a sociological categorization based on population genetic differences, but these differences are not in any way "medically interesting", they are just "racially interesting".

I really think the debate whether race is "factual" or "a construct" is a big misunderstanding. There are any number of facts in the real world. But facts in themselves don't have meaning, attaching meaning to facts is what humans do. So race is, in fact, a human construct of meaning attached to selected population genetic facts. --dab (𒁳) 06:42, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi, dab, thank you for your comments. I am responding implicitly to earlier comments here and on other Wikipedia articles that the category of race has some medical relevance (for which citations to primary research publications are occasionally provided). My response to comments such as those is that if there is indeed an issue of medical relevance here, the way to decide what to say about that issue in the text of a Wikipedia article is to go to the sources of medical reliability, which is something I have been doing by requesting books from the Bio-Medical Library of the major research university in my metropolitan area. But in fact, I thus far have not found a lot of current, reliable, secondary sources about medical issues that mention "race" categories as important for human medicine. If there are such sources, I would be glad to hear about them. If there are not such sources, that suggests a path for future revision of this article. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 15:09, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Really? You must not be looking very hard.

Body mass trajectories vary by race:

Truls Østbye, Rahul Malhotra, and Lawrence R Landerman. Body mass trajectories through adulthood: results from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth 1979 Cohort (1981–2006) Int. J. Epidemiol.

Race is an important factor in lactation score:

Krause KM, Lovelady CA, Ostbye T. Predictors of Breastfeeding in Overweight and Obese Women: Data From Active Mothers Postpartum (AMP). Matern Child Health J.

Rates of Hepatocellular cancer vary by race:

Qin H, Liu B, Shi T, Liu Y, Sun Y, Ma Y. Tumour Necrosis Factor-alpha Polymorphisms and Hepatocellular Carcinoma: a Meta-analysis. J Int Med Res. 2010;38(3):760-768.

And that's on the first page. Going to PubMed and typing in "race" gives over 15,000 results. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 21:59, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Diagrams based on original research are not permitted in the article.

This talk page includes a link to a reminder to all Wikipedians from the Arbitration Committee about the care to be taken when sourcing statements for this and related articles. There is a vast and somewhat contradictory primary literature on this subject, which rapidly becomes obsolete as further research is done. There is also a considerable number of reliable secondary sources on this subject, including some much more recent than the primary sources often cited in this article, that are too often neglected by Wikipedians, even though the Wikipedia reliable source guidelines remind us that "Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. When relying on primary sources, extreme caution is advised: Wikipedians should never interpret the content of primary sources for themselves. See Wikipedia:No original research." In my own reading of the secondary sources, one striking issue is how little agreement there still is on human ancestry trees based on DNA markers. As new human individuals are sampled, or as new DNA locuses are considered, the trees have to be rewritten. If there are to be diagrams of human ancestry groups put in this article, they must be sourced directly to verifiable, reliable secondary sources, and if different sources disagree on the structure or importance of such tree diagrams, that must be mentioned in the article for neutral point of view. P.S. Any Wikipedian reading this is very welcome to suggest additional sources (I mean reliable secondary sources, mostly) on the issues discussed in this article. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 18:21, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Race and biomedicine

Chapter 5 in "Ian Whitmarsh and David S. Jones, 2010, What's the Use of Race? Modern Governance and the Biology of Difference, MIT press" contains a critical discussion of why racial categories are still being used as if they were markers of genetic variation in the field of biomedicine. Reviewing a large body of literature criticizing the continued use of racial categories in biomedicine the authors write:

"Two broad groups of arguments were observed: those relating to the use of racialized categories as (if they were) genetic variables, and those exploring their use as such within biomedical research. Five specific groups of arguments against the use of racialized categories as (if they were) markers of genetic variation emerged from these articles. These drew on concerns that most genetic variation is found within all racialized groups; only a modest amount of genetic variation loosely clusters around racialized groups (but does not result in distinct packages of genetic traits that are unique to each racialized group); genetically “ pure ” racialized populations do not exist (and have never existed); variation in phenotypic traits among racialized groups cannot be assumed to refl ect variation in genotypic traits; and using racialized categories as (if they were) markers of genetic variation tends to reify these categories as essential qualities of the individuals and groups concerned (rather than as context-specific and fluid forms of sociocultural identity). Six related themes emerged concerning the use of racialized categories as (if they were) genetic variables in biomedical research, drawing on concerns about the lack of consensus regarding the defi nition of racialized categories; the limited reliability and external validity of racialized categories; the limited internal validity of racialized categories; the way in which using racialized categories as (as if they were) markers of genetic variation tends to encourage their widespread use to (erroneously) infer genetic causality for disparities in health among racialized groups; the way in which research emphasizing differences in health risk and health care need among racialized groups can lead to the development of inappropriately targeted services for different racialized groups; and how the use of racialized categories to explore disparities in health (and particularly the possible genetic basis for these) can lead to stigmatization and stereotyping. We discuss how these arguments are not simply overlooked,ignored, rejected, or circumvented by contemporary geneticists and biomedical scientists within the context of contemporary genetics and biomedical science, but are selectively engaged with to generate a largely self-referential case for the continued use of racialized categories as (if they were) markers for genetic variation between populations by the researchers involved. As such, while the criticisms and concerns reviewed in this chapter provide powerful arguments for removing the use of racialized categories as (if they were) genetic variables from most genetic (and related biomedical) research, selective engagement with these arguments, together with the self-referential interpretation of findings from analyses using racialized categories as (if they were) genetic variables, continues to make their use as such appear useful to geneticists and biomedical researchers alike."

"It suggests that a more appropriate use of racialized categories as (if they were) markers of genetic variation would be one that recognizes these as, first and foremost, social categories that may only be usefully incorporated into biomedical research and practice in those instances (and these seem likely to be rare) when they are strongly associated with genetic differences responsible for disparities in health." ·Maunus·ƛ· 18:35, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

So basically these scholars (Outram (a cultural anthropologist?) and Ellison) think race is not useful (because of "lack of consensus", "stigmatization and stereotyping", "erroneous" inference of causation (a serious charge), "inappropriately targeted services for different racialized groups" (surely the opposite is the intention?)), but because the entire field of genetics and biomedicine "selectively engages" these arguments, they continue to use race. And yet, despite the entire field of genetics and biomedicine continuing to use race, you use the opinion of a cultural anthropologist in the "Race and biomedicine" section. Maunus, you are a cultural anthropologist. This is the problem. 128.40.111.111 (talk) 07:42, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Mike: You are not reading what it says. They SURVEYED 350 articles published in the field of genetics written by others that were critical of the use of race as a proxy for genotype. Those 350 authors used those arguments. Anyway Outram has a Msc in environmental epidemiology. ·Maunus·ƛ· 11:11, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I think it's severe POV to find the most critical possible source and base the section on it. 128.40.127.155 (talk) 14:35, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

This is probably the best statement of current mainstream POV[1], from Francis Collins. Race is useful, but it's better to be more precise. You should base the section on this. The massive condescending criticism heaped on the concept by Outram above is innappropriate. Much of it can be applied to any classification system. 128.40.127.155 (talk) 15:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

It is not the mpost critical source possible - it is a survey of an extensive body of criticism of the use of race in medicine that already exists and which the article (and most editors) has ignored untill now.·Maunus·ƛ· 15:04, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I have advocated the use of Collins as an example of the mainstream view among within biomedicine as well - but the article has to present the objections to the use of race in biomedicine (many of them also coming from within the field) as well, and here Outram contains an excellent summary of the arguments.·Maunus·ƛ· 15:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Why are you just including the criticism? Surely the use is more pertinent, and uhh, useful. Is part of critical theory? 128.40.127.155 (talk) 16:26, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Because the uses are already there - and a bunch of editors (including you) have argued that the use of race is standard practice with no opposition in biomedicine - this clearly shows that its not that simple. Anyway the criticism shows that the uses aren't necessarily more useful.·Maunus·ƛ· 16:35, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Including criticism is fine, but the current paragraph is now overwhelmed by it. I think it could stand to be more balanced overall. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 17:08, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Try to write up a suggestion for a raceand biomedicine section that you would find more balanced and present it here on the talk page for collaborative improvement?·Maunus·ƛ· 17:24, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

If the IP wants to give it a shot, he should go ahead first (since it seems like he has more of a problem with it than me). If not, I'll see what I can do tomorrow, I'm a bit bogged down with class today. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 17:46, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I am fairly sure that the IP is a banned user - he should not be asked to make any edits or suggestions to the text. ·Maunus·ƛ· 18:10, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh - didn't realize that. I'll try working on a suggestion tomorrow if I have time. The source the IP recommended might be worthwhile though, so I hope it's not a problem to use it. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 19:09, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

No, its a very good source and incidentally I was the one to show it to him a couple of months ago.·Maunus·ƛ· 19:35, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Ferahgo, you need to reread neutral point of view policy if you think that every Wikipedia article on a topic you devote your editing to will be "balanced." By Wikipedia policy, articles have to represent the best available sources. The best available sources are anything but balanced on some issues that Wikipedians disagree about. That's a learning opportunity for the Wikipedians who take the time and effort to read the best current sources. I've changed my point of view over the years on a number of issues because I enjoy visiting a high-quality university library (and making use of interlibrary loan facilities and other aids to research) to read about things I wasn't taught in my undergraduate and postgraduate formal schooling. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 03:04, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be misunderstanding my concept of "balanced." In no way did I mean to imply that I think the article should have undue weight in favor of the relevance of race (with caveats) in medicine, because from my own perception of the literature available, that is the mainstream view among doctors and geneticists. From my perception the article currently has undue weight towards the meaninglessness of race in medicine, which is not an accurate representation of the current body of research. But if even the discussions on the race & genetics talk wasn't able to convince you, I doubt I will. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 04:36, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

For what its worth I think Ferahgo has a point, the biomedicine section does seem a bit like a response to a statement that isn't provided (namely "this is how race is used in biomedicine"). It would be better if it provided the statement of how race is actually used in biomedicine, possibly providing some of biomedicines own reasonings to continue the use and then went on to describing the responses and criticisms. ·Maunus·ƛ· 12:05, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Maunus, your statement makes a lot of sense from the standpoint of best practice as well. It rules nothing out while acknowledging the body of knowledge to date. futurebird (talk) 14:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

We have, or used to have, citations for articles criticizing some uses of race in biomedicine. Modern science is founded on statistics and there is sometimes a high correclation of a disease and people from a particular part of the world. In some cases where one's recent ancestors were from correlates well with SIRE. But not always. Sickle-cell anemia correlates with people from swampy areas in warm areas that have been modified by the practice of agriculture. This includes Italy and parts of Africa. In the US most victims of SSA are descendents of Africans so people link it to "race" but there are many blacks who live in places where there has never been any SSAA, and Europeans who suffer from the illness. So a doctor has to be attentive to ancestry but also cognizant that it signals risks, not certainties. Anyone who assumes certainties that there are "white" or "black" diseases will, if they treat a lot of patients, eventually be wrong and perhaps in a grave way. Some drugs have been marketed to "black" diseases and it turned out it was far more a marketing campaign than science. So we need to be cautious and Maunus's excellent source is an important contribution. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:45, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Maunus has found a thoughtful source (which I also obtained this week) from a major university press with articles by several medically astute experts on the current role of "race" in human medicine. The source is well worth reading, and is quite mainstream in how it reaches conclusions about former race classifications on the basis of the most recent and advanced consensus in genetic research. Remember, by Wikipedia sourcing policies, articles that make medical claims should be sourced to medically reliable sources, which that source indubitably is. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 02:56, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Biomedicine draft

I felt that this basically needed to be rewritten from the ground up. It had a lot of problems, the most noticeable of which were constant synth and organization problems (in addition to the fact that the section was overwhelmed by criticism). The organization issue was probably the biggest one, which includes the fact that the original section didn't even explain the basics of race in medicine and basically dove straight into the arguments for/against instead. The whole thing jumped all over the place, without any clear flow and direction. My rewrite divides the issue into five distinct sections by paragraph: 1. Opening/overview of the situation, 2. Why some people think race in medicine is valuable, 3. Examples of race-linked disorders and race-based medicines 4. Why some people think race in medicine is not valuable, and 5. Looking forward/where this issue is heading.

I tried to keep almost everything that Maunus added from Outram & Ellison, but I removed a lot of content that was either obvious synth, POV, unsourced, or simply not relevant. For example, the source about sickle cell did not include anything related to criticisms of associating disorders with race, so I removed the POV-related stuff surrounding it while still pointing out the facts. I didn't think that the paragraph about the possibly insidious purposes of BiDil were relevant to this section, because what it's really criticizing is the marketing practices of the pharmaceutical industry rather than the concept of race-based medicine in general; this should be discussed in the article on BiDil but not here. The section is already long enough that I think things of only marginal relevance are better left out. The whole section about gene flow, while a decent point, is synth in that the source it cites mentions nothing about comparative levels of MS between Africans and African Americans resulting from gene flow (and I tried to find another source explicitly stating this, with no success). I tossed out the entire last paragraph due to being unsourced and only tangentially related to begin with. If anyone else would like to contribute further sources from either perspective, feel free, but as it is I think it's a reasonably good summary of the current body of literature in this area.

In biomedicine

Since the turn of the millennium, the use of racial categories as a tool for evaluating genetically conditioned health risks and treatment choices has seen a marked increase. The main impetus for this development is the possibility of improving the prevention and treatment of certain diseases by predicting hard-to-ascertain factors, such as genetically conditioned health factors, on the basis of more easily ascertained characteristics such as phenotype and racial self-identification. Since medical judgment often involves decision-making under uncertain conditions, many doctors consider it useful to take race into account when treating disease because diseases and treatment responses tend to cluster by geographic ancestry. The discovery that certain diseases have a considerable degree of correlation with racial identification further sparked the interest in using race as a proxy for bio-geographical ancestry and genetic buildup. Some of the genetically linked diseases that have been found to be particularly prevalent in some populations are Cystic fibrosis, Lactose intolerance, Tay-Sachs Disease, sickle cell anemia, and Crohn disease. There is a general consensus in medicine that the ability to treat diseases improves with greater specificity of genetic analysis, and that the use of racial groups as a predictor of genetic buildup is a crude and imperfect way to identify genetic clusters that correlate with disease risk. However, until cheaper and more widely available methods of genetic analysis are commonplace, the consideration of race remains a worthwhile practice for many doctors and researchers.

The perceived benefit to using race as a consideration in biomedicine is based on the series of surrogate relationships between self-identified race and disease risk. Analysis of microsatellite DNA markers and SNPs from human populations have shown that using a combination of these polymorphic genes it is possible to determine a person's geographic ancestry with a high degree of accuracy. Furthermore, analyzing the fraction of human genetic variation that lies within and between geographically separated populations has shown that the genes that are geographically highly differentiated in their allelic frequencies are not typical of the human genome in general. Since race can be seen as an imperfect surrogate for ancestral geographic region, it is in turn a surrogate for variation across one's genome. There is therefore a degree of correlation between genome-wide variation and variation at specific loci associated with disease. The ways in which these variants interact with environmental factors can subsequently give an approximation of propensity for disease or for preferred treatment response, although the approximation is less than perfect.

distribution of the sickle cell trait

distribution of Malaria

A classic example of a disease that tends to correlate with ethnic clusters is Tay-Sachs, an autosomal recessive disorder that has been shown to be more frequent among Ashkenazi Jews than among other Jewish groups and non-Jewish populations, though it also does occur in other groups. Sickle-cell anemia, another well-known genetic disorder, has been seen as most prevalent in populations of sub-Saharan African ancestry, but it is now known also to be common among Latin-American, Indian, Saudi Arab, and Mediterranean populations. The portion of the population with the sickle cell trait is higher in some regions than in others, since it offers some resistance to malaria and consequently has been positively selected in regions where malaria is present. While a correlation between sickle cell and race does exist, some researchers believe that the trait correlates more strongly with geographic ancestry traced to regions with a historical prevalence of malaria. For example, a substantial percentage of people with Sicilian ancestry also carry the sickle cell trait, since malaria was a serious problem there historically. Gene flow and intermixture can also have an effect on predicting relationships between race and race-linked disorders. Multiple sclerosis, for example, is typically associated with people of European descent, but due to admixture African Americans have elevated levels of the disorder relative to Africans.

Race-based medicine is the term for medicines that are targeted at specific ethnic clusters which are shown to have a propensity for a certain disorder. The first example of this in the U.S. was when BiDil, a medication for congestive heart failure, was licensed specifically for use in American patients that self-identify as black. Previous studies had shown that African American patients with congestive heart failure generally respond less effectively to traditional treatments than white patients with similar conditions. After two trials, BiDil was licensed exclusively for use in African American patients. Critics have argued that this particular licensing was unwarranted, since the trials did not in fact show that the drug was more effective in African Americans than in other groups, but merely that it was more effective in African Americans than another similar drug. It was also only tested in African American and white males, but not in any other racial groups or among women. This peculiar trial and licensing procedure has prompted suggestions that the licensing was in fact used as a race based advertising scheme.

The continued use of racial categories as proxies for knowledge about genetically determined health concerns in populations has been criticized widely. Outram and Ellison have identified the most common concerns expressed in relation to this practice: most genetic variation is found within racial groups whereas very little genetic variation loosely coincides with racial groups, but without making any well-defined genetic criteria for ascription of individuals to racial groups possible. Completely genetically homogenous racial groups have never existed and therefore phenotypic traits, and variation between them, do not translate directly to similar variation in genotypic traits. The continued use of racial categories as proxies for genetic variation has a social function of cementing socially constructed racial categories as if they were natural classes, which could result in increased stereotyping and discrimination in society. In many cases, health disparities will be caused by environmental factors common to certain populations and geographic areas, such as differences in culture, diet, education, socioeconomic status, and access to health care, rather than by allele clusters. Another concern is that the way in which research emphasizes differences in health risk and health care need among racial groups can lead to the development of racial discrimination in health services.

There is general agreement that a goal of health-related genetics should be to move past the weak surrogate relationships of racial health disparity and get to the root causes of health and disease. This largely includes research which strives to define human variation with greater specificity across the world. One such emerging method is known as ethnogenetic layering, which is a non-typological alternative to depending on the racial paradigm in biomedicine. It works by focusing on geographically identified microethnic groups, which are far more nuanced and sensitive than simple race analyses.

It might not be perfect, but I think it's a substantial improvement over what's there now. Do you agree? -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 07:45, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Go for it! It looks excellent!...--Novus Orator 07:48, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any serious POV related problems (only in the mention of BiDil which I think needs to mention the criticisms that have been published that accuse it of using racial targetting as an advertising scam (Ellison, George (2006) Medicine in black and white: BiDil®: race and the limits of evidence-based medicine. Significance, Volume 3, Number 3, September 2006 , pp. 118-121(4)). The main problem here I think is clumsy writing - many sentences are heavy or less than precise and some constructions are illogical (e.g. "sickle cell disease offers protection for malaria since it has been positively selected" which reverses cause and effect). Also "ethnicity" is used once or twice where another word would be better. All in all I think the flow is better than in the current version and that once the language problems and minor corrections have been taken care of it could go into the article without objections from me.·Maunus·ƛ· 11:22, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I added the source about BiDil as a marketing scam, and fixed the bit about sickle cell trait (that sentence was left over from the original version that I didn't change) as well as replacing ethnicity with "geographic ancestry" in at least one place ("ethnic clusters" was a term used by several of the sources I read, so I figured it was alright to leave that). If you have any additional wording issues or places where the sentences feel clumsy or imprecise, please feel free to point them out. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 11:45, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

The BiDil part still doesn't work. Ellisons point is that the "substantial" evidence for BiDil's racial effectiveness is exagerrated so it doesn't work to merely attach the marketing scam (also I think marketing scam may be too strong a wording, that was mine not Ellison's). Could I be allowed to edit directly in your draft?·Maunus·ƛ· 12:00, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead! Though keep in mind that the "substantial evidence" part refers to earlier research from 2001, not the 2004 research on BiDil specifically. To my understanding this research (in how blacks and whites respond differently to CHF meds) provided the foundation for the research that went into BiDil. [2] -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 12:01, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I've given it a shot. I didn't see anything suggesting that the licensing of BiDil was in fact related to the earlier research from 2004. The 2001 study showed enlapril to be ineffective in African Americans - the second trial of H-I (BiDil) replicated this finding by showing that enlapril was more effective in whites than in African Americans. The first trial of H-I showed H-I to be more effective than placebo in African American males but not in White males. Thus the substantial evidence only showed that enlapril doesn't work well in african-american populations - the evidence in favour of BiDil's effectiveness was all but substantial.·Maunus·ƛ· 13:11, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Okay, your revision looks decent too. I fixed a few minor things in it, mostly structure, wording related stuff, conciseness, and a few grammar issues here and there. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 13:45, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

You also changed my: "This is because the occurence of the sickle cell trait within populations is higher in regions where Malaria has historically been endemic, because the same genetic trait that causes sickle-cell anemia also offers some resistance to Malaria and has consequently been positively selected in certain geographic areas." back to your previous: "The sickle cell trait offers some resistance to malaria, since in regions where malaria has historically been endemic, sickle cell has been positively selected and consequently the proportion of people with it is greater." This doesn't make sense because it gets the causality backwards - it seems to be saying that the reason that the Sickle-cell trait offers protection is that it has been positively selected, it is of course the other way round, it has been positively selected because it offers protection. My version is wordier, but much more clear about what has actually happened and why this is relevant to the issue.·Maunus·ƛ· 14:04, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Ack, I actually had changed that in the version on my computer but forgot to copy it over for some reason. Anyway, it's mostly the wordiness of your version that I had a problem with, and the double usage of the word "because" in the same sentence. How about this: "The portion of the population with the sickle cell trait is higher in some regions than in others, since it offers some resistance to malaria and consequently has been positively selected in regions where malaria is present." -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 14:12, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Much better, I like it now, but lets await comments from editors such as Victor, Aprock, Slrubenstein et al. before we include it in the article.·Maunus·ƛ· 14:18, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with the draft. Based on WP:Summary style, I believe that the section should be a summary of the race in biomedicine article, which currently is not the case. The draft has given WP:UNDUE weight to race and genetics, which is not the case with the main race in biomedicine article. Basically when one goes to see a doctor in the US, when filling out forms one is given an option to check a box to describe their race. The section on race and biomedicine should discuss why this is done, and the many ways in which such information is used. Such information can be used with genetics in mind, though traditionally this was not the case because the use of genetic technology is fairly recent and the use of racial labels in biomedicine isn't. Wapondaponda (talk) 14:23, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Race in biomedicine redirects to Race and health in the United States. Did you mean Population groups in biomedicine instead?

If Race and health in the United States is what you meant, this section of the article should not be specific to the U.S., so the fact that it's not accurately summarizing a U.S.-specific article is hardly an issue. Since this section of the article is written from an international perspective, it also shouldn't need to explain medical practices (such as checking a box about one's race) that are specific to the U.S. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 14:36, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

There are two other articles covering this general topic as well: Ancestry and health and Ethnicity and health. In addition to population groups in biomedicine, I'd say that my draft here is a fairly good summary of the concepts illustrated in these articles. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 15:04, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Race and biomedicine used to be a separate article, [3] before it was redirected to Race and health in the United States. The usual problem arises in that most countries do not use racial labels as in the US, so there isn't much data from outside the US. Other nations do use data based on ethnicity, but typically not race. The article Population groups in biomedicine has too much in common with Race and health in the United States, such that I would argue that it should be merged into Race and health in the United States. There is a discussion here concerning this very problem. Since the main article is about race, to avoid original research, the section needs to address issues where race is specifically discussed as race, and not where race is confounded with ethnicity, population or nation of origin. The articleethnicity and health is in poor shape and therefore isn't currently suitable for use with wp:summary style. Race and health in the United States is the only article that I can see specifically addressing the use of racial labels in health. Wapondaponda (talk) 16:33, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

You're not addressing my main point. The stuff about how the articles were structured over a year ago, and what articles you think should be merged into which other articles, isn't relevant here. An article from an international perspective should not be modeled after a U.S.-centric article or focused on practices that (by your own admission) don't exist in other countries.

You also said: "Since the main article is about race, to avoid original research, the section needs to address issues where race is specifically discussed as race, and not where race is confounded with ethnicity, population or nation of origin." Please take a look at the sources I cited. All of the ones directly relevant to this issue use the word "race" constantly and most of them have it in the title. These sources are discussing race specifically as race. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 17:05, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Well this article is Race (classification of humans) not race in biomedicine, an extensive discussion of race in biomedicine isn't required in this article, only an appropriate summary. Seeing that this article has been structured with the summary style format, it is relevant to address which article the biomedicine section should be a summary of. Even if the sources cited do mention race directly, one can cherry pick sources in order to advocate a particular point of view. This is why I suggest using a well established article because we can benefit from various perspectives related to the use of racial labels in biomedicine and not just those that discuss "genetic clusters" or specific conditions where race disparities are large as opposed to conditions where race disparities are small. Wapondaponda (talk) 17:26, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

"it is relevant to address which article the biomedicine section should be a summary of." The Race and health in the United States article is not an appropriate article to model this section after, because this article is not U.S. specific.

If you can suggest specific sources that should be added, you're welcome to do that. Continuing to belabor this point about it needing to summarize a U.S.-centric article is not helpful. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 17:39, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think Muntuwandi/Wapondapondas objections make sense or are constructive. We shouldn't base the summary in this article on an article that may not be of the quality that we want this article to be. We are writing this article here, what other articles say doesn't matter - we can iimprove those later. Also there is no automaticness in this section being a summary of any other article. Comments here should adress the contents of the draft not stipulate new rules for how content should be generated. I think this section should desribe the fact that racial categories has become reintroduced as an operational concept in bioscience after a long time of being unthinkable to use as such and on the possible social and scientific problems that arise from this fact. It shouldn't be US specific but global, but as data is definitely richer for the US examples will generally have to be from there. ·Maunus·ƛ· 18:41, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

There are no restrictions on discussing material that is US centric provided that it is stated from the outset that the material in question primarily concerns US data. Looking at the references FTA has provided, almost all are about studies conducted in the US, so it is not appropriate to argue that your draft is more "international" than the Race and health in the United States article. Indeed we are not obliged to follow the summary style format, at the same time, why reinvent the wheel when there is already an article that discusses the subject in detail. What FTA and Maunus seem to want to focus on is the intersection of race, genetics and health, this is a legitimate topic for discussion, but it is only one of several subtopics related to race and medicine. This is why I pointed to Race and health in the United States because there is a lot more to race and health than genetic factors, which I am afraid to say is always the point of fixation for certain users. Wapondaponda (talk) 18:57, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Studies conducted in the US about the topic in general are not the same as specific practices and specific relationships that do not exist outside of the U.S.

Something worth pointing out here is that this section is called race in biomedicine, NOT race and health. "Health" is a much more general term than biomedicine, which has a very specific definition: medicine based on biology. The terms are not the same and most of the things you're bringing up would not legitimately fall into the category of biomedicine. Additionally, the entire section is in the category "Political and practical uses." Again, I don't think your suggestion belongs here.

Here's a specific suggestion for you. If you think these issues should be discussed in this article (and I won't say that they shouldn't be), why don't you propose a new section for it and flesh out a draft? I guess you could call it something like "Environmental health disparities" or "Health and socioeconomic status" or something along those lines. Maybe that could go in the section "concepts and realities of race" or somewhere else. Point is, your suggested changes do not fall into the definition of "practical uses" and they don't fit under "biomedicine" either. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 19:37, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I think that maybe I see a part of Muntuwandi's point in that this version doesn't deal with how genetic medicine is also sometimes criticized for overlooking the socioeconomic aspect of disease by focusing solely on the genetic aspect. It is one of Outram and Ellison's points, but maybe it could be expressed more clearly.·Maunus·ƛ· 20:55, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Checking the box to describe one's race during a medical appointment is a "practical or political use" of race. Doing this is done not solely for the purpose of investigating genetic differences between races, but for a host of other reasons including whether there is any racial disparity in a particular health problem. This is obviously important because it helps policy makers decide how to allocate resources to address various health concerns. As I mentioned before, the subject of race, genetics and health is indeed topic that is being investigated and discussed frequently, in fact it is briefly mentioned in this section, Race_in_biomedicine#Race_and_genetic_biomedical_research. But I disagree with the idea of reducing the race and health discussion to a subject of race and genetics, especially in a general article about race. This may also be a good opportunity to address the overlapping subjects of race and genetics, race and health and race and biomedicine. Wapondaponda (talk) 21:35, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think we are reducing race and health to a subject of race and genetics - we are simply treating those topics apart. Race as it is used in biomedicine in recent years is a topic that has generated a large body of data that deals mostly with the attempt at reviving the relation of race to genetics - not nearly as much with race is constructed within the health system of particular countries. The sources we have simply don't treat that topic. If there is a literature on this subject that you are familiar with I think it would be a good idea to try to build a section from it or if the material is not sufficiently large to merit an entire section to integrate it into this section. I think it is unconstructive to simply object to the section because you feel something is missing - why don't you try to see how to include it instead.·Maunus·ƛ· 21:47, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I believe there is plenty of literature concerning race and health in the Race and health in the United States#References section. Some of the literature focuses on genetics and some doesn't. I think the lead from the article is a fairly decent summary

Race and health research is mostly from the United States. It has found both current and historical racial differences in the frequency, treatments, and availability of treatments for several diseases. This can add up to significant group differences in variables such as life expectancy. Many explanations for such differences have been argued, including socioeconomic factors (e.g., education, employment, and income), lifestyle behaviors (e.g., physical activity and alcohol intake), social environment (e.g., educational and economic opportunities, racial/ethnic discrimination, and neighborhood and work conditions), and access to preventive health-care services (e.g., cancer screening and vaccination)[4] as well as to treatment (through lack of insurance, lack of hospitals in certain areas, etc.), among other environmental differences. Some diseases may also be influenced by genes which differ in frequency between groups, such as sickle-cell anemia, which occurs overwhelmingly among some black populations, although the significance in clinical medicine of race categories as a proxy for exact genotypes of individuals has been questioned.

I would like to reiterate, Race (classification of humans) is a general article about race, therefore extensive discussions about health, biomedicine and genetics need not take place in this article, rather such extensive discussion should take place in the respective articles such as race and health or race and genetics. Only a summary that is representative of the whole topic, not just selected parts, is needed in the main race article. Wapondaponda (talk) 05:29, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, I disagree with that.·Maunus·ƛ· 11:19, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

So, what should we do now? Everyone else who's commented so far other than Muntuwandi has liked it, and he isn't willing to make a specific suggestion about how it can be improved. His only suggestion is that the section on biomedicine should be omitted altogether, although he also isn't offering any specific proposal about what to replace it with, other than that it should be modeled after a US-centric article.

Based on his original comments here and in his user talk, I think it's pretty likely part of Muntuwandi’s reason for disliking this draft is based just on the fact that I wrote it. The focus on biomedicine that he's objecting to was also true of the original version of this section, which had been in the article for years, but he never had a problem with this before now. As far as I can tell he hasn't even been involved in this article for years, but as soon as I made this proposal he immediately showed up here to oppose me. Since the end of the arbcom case the vast majority of Muntuwandi's involvement in Wikipedia has been trying to stop me from contributing to these articles. If his opposition to my draft is more of this same pattern, there's nothing I can do to satisfy him other than leaving it out completely.

Meanwhile the section that's currently in the article is a mess, both in terms of organization and its number of synth issues and unreferenced material. My draft fixes these problems even if it's not perfect. If Muntuwandi's unwillingness to accept my draft or suggest specific changes to it means we can't ever reach a consensus, that means all the synth and unreferenced material that's currently in this section will stay there. This isn't an acceptable solution. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 13:01, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, the "everyone else" who has liked the draft is in fact just me. so I think the right thing to do is await more comments by contributors like Slr, Aprock, Victor, WaikeBanji etc.·Maunus·ƛ· 15:44, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

To be fair, Novus Orator commented positively too. Otherwise, I'm fine with waiting for others' input for now. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 15:49, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Ah, true I missed that one.·Maunus·ƛ· 15:50, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Isn't this a problem we face with many articles? At first, there is one article with many parts and we work on it as a whole and can easily see how each part contributes to the whole. Then the reach a certain size where it becomes too big. So sections are spun off to become new articles, and the topic is covered in the original article in summary style. Okay so far, buthow do we proceed at this point? As I said this happens ith most articles. Do we continue to use the main article to develop subtopics and thn export to the linked article, or do we work on the linked article and periodically revise the summary in the main article? Slrubenstein | Talk 16:01, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the top down approach (conceptualizing the topic as a whole and writing the spinnouts, then integrating the summaries into the main article) is feasible. We are very few editors working here and the discussion that is necessary for every change make the process so time consuming that insisting on building the spinnout articles would mean that the main race article would not reach an acceptable state within our lifetimes. To me the only feasible approach is to let each editor work on the articles of their choice and contribute to improve that - we should not be insisting that every new inclusion should fit within some larger picture that none of us can agree about what looks like. We should take one improvement at a time and when individual articles reach a stage where we are comfortable with we can start comparing. The other approach will get us nowhere.·Maunus·ƛ· 16:26, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the skeleton structure for wp:summary style is already in place for the main race article. Much of the work has already been done by other editors in the past, so there is no need to start the process from scratch. Periodic reevaluations and cleanups are probably in order as opposed to complete rewrites. There is no requirement to strictly adhere to the summary style format, but I think it makes working on content a lot easier because some of the research has already been done. Wapondaponda (talk) 17:06, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I have expressed my concerns on the Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment‎ page, concerning FTA and for now will leave the discussion there. When I contributed to this article a few years ago, race and health and race and biomedicine were treated as a single subject. Indeed today both are redirects to race and health in the United States. It is from this perspective that I was of the opinion that the section in question was meant to address race and health issues in general and not specifically the debate about race and genetics alone. So I was concerned about the draft's focus on genetics, because genetics is always controversial.

I haven't made in concrete suggestions yet, but I have made some implicit suggestions. I am putting the following points up for consideration.

• Reconsider "race in health care" because this is indeed a practical use of race and this application is probably more established than the use of race in biomedicine. Biomedicine is a discipline within the health care system so it is covered as well.
• In the US, race is an important variable in the health care system
• For a number of conditions, health disparities between racial groups in the US do exist.
• Socioeconomic factors are responsible for some of these disparities (poverty, crime, health insurance, education etc).
• Genetic factors also play a role, eg sickle cell, Tay Sachs etc
• Race may be a proxy, albeit an imperfect one, for both socioeconomic and genetic factors.
• The role of genetics in explaining health disparities is controversial because of the risk of reifying race.

Some clarifications on the material that is presently in the article. Though not so eloquently put, the main point about the sickle cell trait is that its occurrence does correlate with race, but in fact the occurrence of the trait may correlate more strongly with geographic ancestry traced to regions with a historical prevalence of malaria than it does with race. This is because Eurasians living in areas affected by malaria have moderate frequencies of the trait and the trait is almost absent in regions of Africa where there is no malaria, such as south of the Tropic of Capricorn and in the highlands of East Africa. Apparently Sicilian Americans living in New York make up the second largest group of sickle cell patients [5]

The main point about MS is that was traditionally considered a Northern European trait. It is rare among Africans, but occurs in low frequencies among African Americans due possible to gene flow. The article Clinical characteristics of African Americans vs Caucasian Americans with multiple sclerosis discusses this. Wapondaponda (talk) 16:10, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Both of those sources are useful and I have incorporated them into my draft (in the paragraph about race-linked disorders). The first point, about sickle cell in Italy, I got rid of originally just because I felt it was only tangentially related, but since someone has a specific preference for it to remain, I don't mind re-including it. The second point, about MC admixture, was a good point to begin with but the reference in the original section related to this does not mention this point directly and is obvious synth. Your new source for this is much better.

Suggesting specific new sources for this is always useful, and I think it's probably the only way it makes sense for requesting changes to the draft, rather than just offering general complaints. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 17:22, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

With the exception of the last uncited paragraph, much of the material in the current version isn't any worse than in than in draft. I believe the article Back with a Vengeance: the Reemergence of a Biological Conceptualization of Race in Research on Race/Ethnic Disparities in Health probably gives the best explanation of the Bidil controversy. There are several criticisms regarding how BiDil was marketed. What I find most interesting is that the efficacy of BiDil is related to low levels of nitrous oxide. It happens that African Americans tend to have low levels of nitrous oxide which is related to diabetes, a condition that is common among African Americans. The critics argue that it is nitrous oxide levels that should be considered, and not race, when prescribing BiDil as members of all races who fit a specific nitrous oxide profile would potentially benefit from the drug. Wapondaponda (talk) 23:03, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I've pointed out several ways in which the current version contains a large amount of synth and original research. There are sources being cited currently that don't even mention the points that the article is making. And that's not even considering the unsourced material and very bad organization. I find it worrisome that you'd prefer these problems to a version that doesn't have them just because the original contains the amount of criticism you prefer.

I also think the paragraph about BiDil has enough criticism already. The BiDil paragraph is currently around half criticism, and the other half is mostly just explaining what the drug is to begin with. One of the problems (which others agreed was a problem) with the original section is that the entire thing is overwhelmed with criticism, and that needs to be avoided. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 23:24, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, per wp:summary style, if users find that they are devoting too much space to a specific section, its probably a good time to consider moving efforts to a new article, and summarizing arguments in the main article. The main criticism of "race based medicine" is that clinicians would be better off considering causative factors that contribute to higher frequencies of medical conditions within certain ethnic or racial groups. So with sickle cell the causative factor is malaria prevalence, and not necessarily race. With BiDil, the causative factor is nitrous oxide levels, and not necessarily race. If this core criticism of race based medicine is addressed, then the space devoted to the examples can be reduced. Wapondaponda (talk) 23:42, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Are you saying that the section needs to include the "core criticism" that there's often a causative factor other than race at play in race-based medicine? Just inferring this from various sources that point to a causative factor other than race would be synth. If you can give me a source for that specifically I'll consider adding it to my draft, and reduce the space given to specific examples of what's wrong with race-based medicine. For example I'd probably cut out some of the problems with BiDil if Maunus is okay with that. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 00:36, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

I think maybe its best to leave BiDil out entirely or to merely mention that it was the first drug to be licensed exclusively for use in one racial group and that this licensing decision has been controversial.·Maunus·ƛ· 02:27, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Reading the section, it's not clear to me that it falls under the topic of the article. If it were up to me I would move all of section 3 "Political and practical uses" to the appropriate articles, including them in the "See Also" section, or maybe a short summary in the body. aprock (talk) 18:31, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I wish someone had mentioned they wanted to can the whole section before I bothered rewriting it...

The goal here isn't to rewrite most of the article. The existing section has a lot of synth, OR and organization issues, and my goal was to improve the one section. If we can't do anything until we've figured out how to improve the whole article, we're never going to accomplish anything, and the crappy current version of the section will indefinitely stay. Can we at least agree that my draft is better than what's there currently, and work on changing larger parts afterward? -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 19:22, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I echo Ferahgo's sentiment.·Maunus·ƛ· 19:41, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I'll just note that my comment is in no way meant to indicate that the content does not belong on wikipedia, or should be deleted. I specifically suggested moving it to a more appropriate article. Beyond that, I really can't speak to the content issues here as I've done very little reading on race and medicine. I suspect that the draft is an improvement, but that's without reading any of the sources. I do think it would be better to move the various "applications of race" to the appropriate articles. aprock (talk) 19:50, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Some accusations of OR and SYNTH have been proven false. FTA stated that the material about sickle cell or MS was synth, but sources clearly back the statements up, and FTA has now admitted that the MS material is backed by sources. I am all for improving the organization of the article in general and any specific subsection, I have concerns about advocacy and other policy violations. Wapondaponda (talk) 20:39, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Um, how is that proving it false? You gave me a new source, which supports this information so I've integrated it into my draft. The current version is still rife with the same problems it's always had. You are literally the only person who has a problem with my draft. Also, I am very confused about "advocacy and policy violations," what policies am I violating here and how? -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 21:06, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Just because something could be cited better doesn't automatically mean that it is OR or SYNTH as you suggested. In fact the current reference for the MS material states"

"MS is primarily a Caucasian disease, especially affecting those of northern European ancestry (e.g. Scandanavians, English, Irish). Its prevalence is low in African blacks, Asians and other ethnic groups with little Caucasian admixture."

Though the new source is more direct, I don't see the old source as being significantly different.

Wapondaponda (talk) 21:47, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

To start with, the draft states,

"Since the turn of the millennium, the use of racial categories as a tool for evaluating genetically conditioned health risks and treatment choices has seen a marked increase."

I have concerns about the accuracy of this statement. Racial categories in health have been used for quite some time now, not just since the turn of the millenium. Furthermore while the human genome is now available, not much is known about how it works. Polymorphisms that are used to differentiate populations are known, but their role in health disparities is still poorly understood, eg this study A High-Density Admixture Scan in 1,670 African Americans with Hypertension states,

"Our results are consistent with there being no common variants with a strong effect accounting for differences in HTN prevalence between African and European Americans. This increases the weight of evidence that non-genetic causes explain most of the difference in rates across populations."

I digress, but just wanted to illustrate that there are a lot of mixed results. In addition to the many criticisms of racial labels in biomedicine, I find it hard to see a clear cut consensus that "the use of racial categories as a tool for evaluating genetically conditioned health risks and treatment choices has seen a marked increase". Honestly I find the current leading sentence "There is an active debate among biomedical researchers about the meaning and importance of race in their research" a lot more neutral and representative of the current controversy. Wapondaponda (talk) 22:08, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

The Outram And Ellison article clearly states that point - several other excellent sources could be cited as well there has been a marked increase. I went to a lecture last week with NYU Sociologist Troy Duster - it was called "The Concept of Race in the Biological Sciences and Clinical Medicine - With some Social and Political Consequences of its Surprising, even Vigorous Revitalization". ·Maunus·ƛ· 23:00, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

The old MS source says nothing about African Americans, or even about the idea that ethnic groups with more European admixture have elevated levels of MS. That's why it's synth. And I completely agree with Maunus about the lead sentence. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 01:49, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Biomedicine draft section break

I have undone the premature change by Maunus, as their is no consensus, at least from my perspective regarding the changes. I have expressed my concerns, and they have not been addressed. Wapondaponda (talk) 04:53, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

The first reference "Ian Whitmarsh and David S. Jones, 2010, What's the Use of Race? Modern Governance and the Biology of Difference, MIT press. Chapter 9." I haven't read it yet, but I am not sure that this book should form the backbone of this section, as it does since it is cited four times. I can see no customer reviews yet from amazon, which is an unscientific method of determining that it hasn't been widely read yet.

The second reference "Satel, Sally. "I Am a Racially Profiling Doctor"" is an article that appeared in the NYT. It is the opinion of one doctor, but not the opinion of the whole medical field. Maybe statements from the American Medical Association would be more representative of the medical fields position on race.

Wapondaponda (talk) 05:08, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I haven't replied here simply because I have been busy finding sources on the subject under discussion here, and gradually posting results from earlier searches for sources on other Wikipedia articles. So I express no opinion on either the "before" text that has been in the article for a while or the "after" text that was drafted here for a while before recently being posted to the article. (That's right, isn't it? That's the sequence I recall seeing from diffs on my watch list.) It may be, whatever is in the article at the moment, that I will be extensively revising what is there based on the sources I am still gathering literally through today. I see mention of the source Satel, Sally. "I Am a Racially Profiling Doctor" I definitely do not approve of that source being prominently mentioned in the article, as that is not a Wikipedia medically reliable source for such claims, even though the opinion piece from a major newspaper is written by a medical doctor. There are abundant medically reliable secondary sources, which I have already found and in some cases have already logged in to source lists I keep in user space, that show that individual licensed physicians in primary care practice in many cases do not keep up with the latest research on racial classification of human beings and make clinical decisions about considering patient race that are not warranted by sound biomedical science. Because of the usual sourcing rules, it would be much better to cite those sources than prominently to cite an opinion piece such as that source. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 15:59, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

You haven't expressed any "concerns" you have just objected to the sections very existence and when you were contracidtec you left the debate. If we wanted to move forward there was nothing else that could be done than inserting the section. I am getting extremely tired of the tactics you use - basically they are identical to the stalling tactics used by Occam and Kane.You aren't willing to acvtually write a sentence yourself only to impede any progress. Why is this? Do you really think the articles are that good? ·Maunus·ƛ· 12:18, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Maunus, the edits I have seen from the keyboard of Wapondaponda have mostly been constructive and encyclopedic, even though many of them have taken the form of deleting POV content rather than adding freshly sourced content. That seems to Wapondaponda's strength as an editor, recognizing when there is undue weight given to viewpoints that are not well represented in the professional literature. Some editors contribute most by removing what is left to take away and others by adding what needs to be added. To be clear, I trust Wapondaponda's judgment in such matters, after repeated instances of seeing his edits on controversial articles, but I simply have no opinion at all about the relative merits of the two blocks of article text discussed here, as I have given neither a line-by-line reading. (It is of additional note to me that Professor marginalia has evident concerns about both blocks of text, and that those concerns are motivated by examining recent sources on the subject.) Simply put, I express no opinion on what the current passage in article text should look like as between the former article text and the text newly drafted here on the talk page, but I reserve the right to make bold edits in whatever I find in this article on the basis of sources, as I discover those sources. I also respectfully suggest that all of us continue to think about how to reduce the inordinate length of this article, and how to use the existing linked subarticles to treat each detailed topic better. I will be happy to take up your encouragement to write new article text as I catch up with rewrites on the several dozen related articles that need rewrites. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 15:59, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Sigh......

There is tendency here to take the reader into the "rabbit hole" (or is it "black hole") of these "race" articles when the focus is on satisfying subtextual questions. At the uppermost level, the question is whether race is more genetically defined or culturally defined, and whether or not the two reliably correlate. Of course, strongly interested partisans can be found on both sides eager to seize ammunition for their "side", while in medicine, of course, there are strong correlates to "culture" and "biology" both. So how does one determine how much weight to give one over the other? If there are outcome differences between culturally defined "race" groups do they necessarily suggest underlying genetic differences? Of course not. So the tension in biomedicine is between how useful/damaging is it to focus on race (socially defined) when tailoring diagnoses or treatments, -and what inferences can be drawn from them that these are culturally based differences rather than genetically based differences.

I'm not picking a "side" here...I'm trying to read like a general reader here. And I think the rl tension isn't well described in either version or in the discussion here--instead, the debate about "biomedicine" comes off like a "capture the flag", a contest over the invisible subtexts. THAT is what should be our focus, I think. How to eliminate or tune out subtextual noise to simply describe how this ambivalence is expressed in biomedical research. Professor marginalia (talk) 06:10, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that that the subtextual noise is one of the main problems with this particular dispute. The draft has a particular undercurrent, basically it seems set up to imply the existence of biologically distinct races. I have offered an alternative approach, but some others have not thought of it as worthy of consideration. The real motivation for using race in health care is to identify and address health disparities, not to prove or disprove the existence of biological races. Some health disparities between populations may have a genetic origin, others a sociocultural, and still others may be the result of both. Race is indeed important in health care. African American men have much higher rates of prostate cancer than European American men, so it makes sense to give more emphasis to prevention or early detection when dealing with African Americans than other populations, which is currently the case. But race is not the overriding or most important factor, it is useful in a probabilistic sense not an absolute one. Many men of European extraction are also affected by prostate cancer. The subject of particular genes and race I think would be appropriate for the race and genetics article. Wapondaponda (talk) 09:30, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Give us your draft Muntuwandi, do contribute something other than "concerns".·Maunus·ƛ· 12:18, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I haven't left the debate, I had taken some time off to address the amendment case. For the record, some of the material in the current section was written by me, so I my contributions aren't restricted to the talk page, or "impeding progress". Since you asked, I will add a proposal for consideration as well. I will use anything useful from the current version, and this draft as well. Wapondaponda (talk)

I think that while we wait for Muntuwandi to come up with his own draft, mine should go back into the article. After he produces his, we can perhaps integrate them together. In the meantime, though, I don't think we should leave the section the way it is now with all of its poor organization, synth and OR issues. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 15:45, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Just to remind you that one of the issues raised concerning Captain Occam was a tendency to falsify or exaggerate consensus, and ignore opposing viewpoints. I also expressed concerns about Captain Occam's overly aggressive editing( Ludwigs referred to Captain Occam as a pitbull) Furthermore I am uncomfortable with the my draft/your draft talk. It reminds of a discussion found here Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-11-12/Race and Intelligence/Archive 5#page_structure_-_convenience_break_2 in which Slrubenstein responded to Captain Occam with the following

We are seeking mediation to come up with ONE outline for the article. In the end there is no "my outline" versus "your outline,"

Let us avoid ownership of drafts or articles. At the end of day the goal should be to develop material that is firstly, representative of mainstream science, and secondly, that the broader community will find acceptable. I hope to have a proposal up by midnight pacific time. Wapondaponda (talk) 17:42, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I've done everything but "ignoring opposing viewpoints." All of the specific suggestions you've given - involving sources - I have added to my draft, which I've noticed you've ignored. I would also be glad to add more specific suggestions you have that aren't just vague complaints. Additionally, you're overcomplicating this. The issue is that the old version which you've restored has numerous organization, synth and OR issues, and there's no reason for those to remain in the article while we wait for further improvements. If you want to offer a way to improve the section that goes beyond the improvements I've suggested already, you're free to do so. Until you do, we should go with the best thing we have. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 18:10, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Biomedicine proposal 2

Race in health care

In the United States, race is an important variable in health care system. Policy makers use racially categorized data to identify and address health disparities between racial or ethnic groups. In clinical settings, race has long been used as a variable in the diagnosis and treatment of medical conditions. This is because some medical conditions are more prevalent in certain racial or ethnic groups than in others.

In more recent times, the role of race in biomedical research has attracted considerable interest. Much of this interest has been fueled by the proliferation of human genetic data which followed the decoding of the human genome. There is an active debate among biomedical researchers about the meaning and importance of race in their research. Some researchers strongly support the continued use of racial categorizations in biomedical research and clinical practice. They argue that race may correlate, albeit imperfectly, with the presence of specific genetic variants associated with disease. Knowledge of a persons race may be a cost effective way to assess susceptibility to genetically influenced medical conditions. Detractors of this position acknowledge that race is sometimes useful in clinical medicine but encourage minimizing its use. They suggest that medical practices should maintain their focus on the individual rather than an individual's membership to any group. They argue that overemphasizing genetic contributions to health disparities carries various risks such as reinforcing stereotypes, promoting racism or ignoring the contribution of non-genetic factors to health disparities.

I have taken into consideration A.Prock and Weiji concerns. Basically the main race article is quite large and that such specialist topics are better off if they are dealt with in sub-articles. I have also taken a cue from the Race (classification of humans)#Race_and_intelligence section as it gives only a brief summary of the race and intelligence article as opposed to an extended discussion. I therefore propose moving either the current content or the draft created by FTA to the article race in biomedicine and expanding it further from there. Any comments, critiques, additions, subtractions or suggestions are welcome. Wapondaponda (talk) 04:28, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

It's certainly concise. It is almost so concise as to not be informative - I think the use examples help the reader a lot. I appreciate the point I think you're trying to make that selecting examples creates the possibility of undue weight to a single issue or of having to include all kinds of arguments in order to achieve balance. But This seems just a little too generic for my tastes. Also there is an issue with the references there are a lot more references in the list than in the text.·Maunus·ƛ· 12:07, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Understood, my point of reference was the race and intelligence subsection, which is even more concise and has no references. My suggestion is to move the discussion with all the references to the main race and biomedicine article, where at present, there are no space constraints. There is a lot of interesting material to add, I found it hard to choose what to include and what to leave out. I couldn't see how we could include all of it in a single subsection without it getting bloated, so for the moment I decided to leave out all the examples. It should be noted that some of the examples I omitted, such as MS or sickle cell, were introduced to the article by me a few years ago. However I am comfortable omitting them for now, because they can be moved to the main subarticle. This is when WP:SUMMARY STYLE becomes useful, because there is no loss of information. I have concerns that some editors prefer to advocate points of view on "high profile" articles because they believe these articles have a wider audience. But I personally don't mind working on a "low profile" article like race and biomedicine because editors can do a better job of comprehensively covering the discussion as opposed to cherry picking the most controversial or provocative aspects of the subject. So I urge others to not shy away from working on some of these obscure articles, in fact it is sometimes more rewarding to work on such articles because they don't have much baggage. Wapondaponda (talk) 15:32, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I see you just replaced my entire section with yours, and moved my section to Race and health in the United States. I'm a bit confused about this considering the only person who commented on your suggested changes (Maunus) clearly disapproved of them. I agree with him that your section is far too concise so as to be uninformative, and leaves out important details and examples (also has a couple of grammar/link errors). You've also moved my section to a US-centric article, where it does not belong as it was not written with only the US in mind. It's very curious that you would reject Maunus's edit on the basis of "no consensus" when you were the only one who disagreed [6] and then further replace my edit when you had no one agreeing with you at all. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 06:20, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I replaced the longer section. I find it odd that this relevant information is considered "too long", while reams and reams of dubious discussion of what race is not (and incidentally what nobody thinks it is) is considered encyclopedic. 80.254.146.52 (talk) 12:53, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I think it is not a good sign that we are revert warring again here...·Maunus·ƛ· 13:49, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

After reading Whitmarsh and Jones chapter 9 for the second time, I have reverted the I.P. edit (thus restoring Wapondaponda's edit). The block of text from the keyboard of Wapondaponda much better reflects current reliable sources on the subject, which should be the key consideration here. The block of text from the keyboard of Ferahgo and company was a fudge of the content of chapter 9 of Whitmarsh and Jones, and relied on another source that is not a Wikipedia medically reliable source while writing about medical practice. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 15:07, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Weiji, if you have an issue with the way I've used that source, then you need to explain what it is specifically on the talk page so it can be fixed. Complaining about it in the edit summary during a revert is the worst possible way to bring that up, why didn't you bring it up a week ago when Maunus and I were tweaking it? I'm also sick of all the implications that I'm not making these edits on my own, it's an insult and a slap in the face after having sacrificed an entire day researching and writing that draft without anyone's help. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 15:17, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I always respect Maunus's views. I smetimes disagree with him; I disagree with Wapondaponda more often, but I also respect his views and sure hope we can work out some compromise. But for now, I agree with WeijiBaikeBiabnji and his revert. I sure hope this is not an edit war. I think it is time to call for a voluntary moratorium on edits to the article and just talk out differences here. If Ferahgo wants more explanation I hope it will be provided. But what we need right now is patience. I do not have time to check WP every day. Sometimes I cannot check it every week. I didn't have time to participate when Maunus and FTA were tweaking it. But htis is not a job that needs to be finished in a week. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:21, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

For the record, I would like to see more content, but WAponda is right that complex topics should be discussed in separate articles. But I have no objection to more content, I just propose that that content be placed here and maybe more people participate in "tweaking" it or making major edits, before it is added to the article. It is fair to ask Weiji for more explanation about specific examples of objectionable content as a start. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:24, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Maunus suggested here [7] that we get the opinions of Victor Chmara, Weiji, Aprock, and you about my draft before making a final decision about anything. Victor is the only one who hasn't commented here yet, so I think we should get his opinion too. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 15:55, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

@IP, there is a long standing discussion concerning the length of this article. If editors are interested it can be addressed. Yes the section is concise, but as previously mentioned, the section on race and intelligence is even more concise, has no references, yet nobody is complaining. I guess that is basically because the purpose of the section isn't to debate race and intelligence, but simply to introduce readers to the subject. If they require further information, they can follow the "main article" wikilink. As for concerns about not being informative enough, I think the race and health article is quite informative, and since there is a link to it now, readers will now have access to more comprehensive information on the subject, not just controversial stuff, but uncontroversial material as well. I guess Slrubenstein's point is that even with summary style, sections need to be "attractive" enough to entice users to want to read more on the subject and follow the links to the main article. In principle I have no objections to adding more content. I do however think that since we have gotten off to a bad start, it is probably best for now to debate the controversial claims in the appropriate article. Despite the fact that some editors disapprove of "proposal 2", I don't think anyone can have major complaints that is not neutral. I have seen this approach used in a number of content disputes when there is an impasse.

I have moved the article race and health in the United States to Race and health to address concerns about US-Centrism. Wapondaponda (talk) 17:26, 5 October 2010 (UTC) Going around seeking the opinion of editors who share a similar point of view, with the purpose of influencing a decision may constitute inappropriate canvassing. Wapondaponda (talk) 18:20, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, come on... Maunus specifically listed the names of editors whose opinions he'd like to hear about this topic, and Victor is the only one of them who hasn't commented. I think it's more questionable that you'd have a specific desire for Victor to not see this discussion. You are grasping at straws for things to get me in trouble over. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 18:27, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Victor or anyone else for that matter is free to comment on this subject. However I believe that given the history of FTA/Occam canvassing Victor, it seems dodgy. I know there are many other editors interested in this article, so the "list" is somewhat arbitrary. Wapondaponda (talk) 18:54, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Are you incapable of having a content discussion with me without dragging your unnecessary suspicions into it? I thought you were going to stop this when Maunus asked you to after this comment. [8] Please stop obstructing discussion and progress on this article with your unreasonable nitpicking. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 19:11, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

In all fairness, I believe that you should be observing your topic ban, rather than evading it. Until the matter is resolved by Arbcom, I will follow the recommendations from Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Captain Occam/Archive. Whenever Arbcom resolves the matter, whichever way it goes, the atmosphere will be cleared for everyone to refocus their energies on content rather than conduct, which is what I would prefer. Wapondaponda (talk) 19:23, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I do not have a topic ban, and I am not evading it. Maunus has already reminded you of this once: [9] untill such a time as arbcom should decide to impose restrictions she is as free as anyone else to work towards an improved article. You did not, from what I can see, receive any recommendations from the outcome of the SPI. You did however receive a recommendation from Maunus, who asked you nicely to stop harping on this, and for the good of the articles I implore you to respect that request. Also, when you say that the atmosphere will be cleared for everyone to discuss content after arbcom makes their decision about me, does that mean you intend to keep this up until that point, diverting all of my attempts to discuss content with you into these personal accusations? -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 19:53, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Maunus is an involved party and his opinions about this case are not shared by everyone. I do know that FTA did receive advice from a number of uninvolved editors and has completely ignored this advice. I may continue to discuss this issue if the Occam-like conduct issues that were discussed in the Arbcom case such as coordinated tag-teaming, battleground editing, advocacy, edit warring and falsifying consensus, continue to appear in these articles. Wapondaponda (talk) 23:25, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

@Ferahgo-all three clerks responding on the SPI were persuaded that you looked like a sock. The first appeared to decline the investigation simply because there was no need for it--it appeared to be an open-and-shut case.

I don't think that any of the revisions of that section are getting the job done. I'll try to take a crack at it myself--by tomorrow maybe. Professor marginalia (talk) 23:57, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I think you misread the SPI - one of the clerks said "Personally, I find the idea that someone who did not start editing in earnest until 2009 maintaining a sock from 2006 to be rather unlikely." I'm pretty sure that no one in the current arb amendment thread actually thinks I'm a sock, the issue is mostly whether or not my account falls under WP:SHARE. Anyway, this is all beside the point really. This whole situation is currently being dealt with by arbcom and in the meantime I have not violated any policies on these articles, and would like to continue contributing to them productively. I think that until a decision is reached by arbcom it's not too much to ask that I be afforded the same civility that would be expected of any editor. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 00:42, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

You forgot to mention the first sentence "If what Captain Occam says is true a CU should be able to verify it". Timotheus Canens was of the opinion that a Checkuser would clear you and Occam. But since Occam admitted that him and FTA edited from the same network, a Checkuser was no longer necessary. Had a checkuser been taken, based on the technical data, FTA and Occam would have been indistinguishable, which is often the basis for determining sockpuppetry. I am aware that you are uncomfortable with the subject of sanction evasion (IMO because it is accurate), so I have avoided discussing it in this article, but it is not uncivil to discuss sanction evasion when there is some questionable conduct. I don't recall anyone in these threads having been personally uncivil towards you. Wapondaponda (talk) 04:20, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The issue is not how many people have been canvassed or polled. The point is dialogue and collaboration. Maunus is a highly respected editor and Wapondaponda is also wel-respected. So are Captain Marginalia and WeijiBaikeBianji. instead of voting on which version we prefer, this makes more sense: we all agree on what minimally belongs. WeijiBaikeBianji and Wapondaponda have problems with more information, which Maunus thinks is worth adding. Well, I think Maunus should be given a fair hearing by those who disagree. This means providing reasons and seeking compromises. Can we focus on this? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:53, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

@Ferahgo-let me clarify. Two of the three were persuaded that you were a sock, and the third explicitly endorsed the investigation to determine the question via checkuser. A half hour after the checkuser investigation was recommended, Captain Occam acknowledged both accounts edit from the same house.

I have serious concerns how sources are being used here. How many of us have access to and have read all these sources cited in the biomedicine section??Professor marginalia (talk) 18:47, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

We can safely ignore Ferahgo here - just ignore her. What matters is Maunus and Waponda and Weiji talking to one another about the material Maunus thinks should be in, and they shink should not be in, and what is a reasonable compromise, and how best to present any additional material that goes in. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

If this is how I'm going to be treated when I try to discuss content on this article, I don't think any of you should expect Maunus to participate here any time soon. See the discussion in his user talk. If you're interested in anything resembling a compromise on these articles, you’ll need to avoid acting in a way that drives away everyone who disagrees with you. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 22:19, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Respecting what the sources say and respecting core Wikipedia principles

I'll respond here to a question that came to me from the keyboard of Slrubenstein. I was asked why I thought a replacement of article text first done by Wapaponda, then undone by an I.P. editor, and then redone by me was appropriate. Simply put, as I wrote in my diff, the cited source does not support the replaced Wikipedia article text that cites it. The topic sentence of the reverted paragraph, "Since the turn of the millennium, the use of racial categories as a tool for evaluating genetically conditioned health risks and treatment choices has seen a marked increase" misstates what the cited source says, and I think misstates what any of the current literature on the subject says. The actual topic sentences in the topic paragraph of the cited reference are "Despite the successes of this ongoing revolution [in 'evidence based medicine'], many holdovers from the nineteenth-century world are still very much a part of contemporary medical thinking, and perhaps none has proven more difficult to exorcise than the tenacious habits of racialized medicine. Although race has been thoroughly discredited as a meaningful biologic subdivision of humanity (Collins 2004; Torres and Kittles 2007), it is still a recurring and common quantity in medical training and practice." Kaufman, Jay S.; Cooper, Richard S. (2010). "Racial and Ethnic Identity in Medical Evaluations and Treatments". In Whitmarsh, Ian; Jones, David S. (eds.). What's the Use of Race?: Modern Governance and the Biology of Difference. Cambridge (MA): MIT Press. p. 187. ISBN 978-0-262-51424-8. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help); Unknown parameter |laydate= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help) The authors go on to give the example (page 192) of sickle-cell anemia screening being universal in the United States—not just applied to one "race" group—for sound statistical reasons that they discuss in the chapter. The previous draft completely misrepresented its sources, and is thus a classic example of a fudge, which should always be deleted on sight from Wikipedia. In light of a previous statement by an administrator,[10] this seems to be enough to say about this issue. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 00:12, 7 October 2010 (UTC)