Talk:Tamil genocide

Potential redundancy?

@Beastmastah this page is redundant and I propose it be merged with the existing War crimes during the final stages of the Sri Lankan Civil War page, which already addresses the topic concerned.

Now, you, or someone using your username (I'll assume it was you until you deny it), started a recruitment campaign on Reddit to get people to contribute to this page. I don't believe that itself constitutes a violation of Wikipedia policy. However, should you try to use them to support you in a debate, it could amount to (or at least border) WP:MEATPUPPET given that you've openly stated "it's important to act swiftly before the page faces potential attacks or vandalism and attacks from Sinhalese nationalist editors/users."

"Sinhalese nationalist editors/users" - I hope that wasn't a reference to me. If it was, I see why you might think that, but remember the age-old advice: Don't judge a book by its cover. Would a Sinhalese nationalist editor dedicate thousands of characters about violence against Tamils by Sinhalese rioters?

What puzzles me is that you've gone outside of Wikipedia to discuss this, but you did not once use the talk page despite the fact that I had invited you to do that. You instead proceeded to undo the revert without seeking a discussion on the talk page, and after my warning, "blanked" your talk page." What you should have done is make an argument for your case on the talk page. If you felt that the content is too vague, you could have just added your own information without changing the article name or making a new page. You could also have gone to the talk page to raise your concerns. There are Tamil Wikipedia users who frequently contribute to Sri Lankan ethnic conflict-related articles that you could have called into the discussion, and I'm sure they'd be sympathetic to you. Heck, you could have just added a section called "Recognition of genocide" or something along those lines, which would have been less controversial and, again, you could have defended in the talk page if needed.

I have opened this merge request, but I am open to discussion because that's what Wikipedia's strength is for contentious topics. Wikipedia makes decisions via consensuses. I've been an editor here for quite some time and I've been in a number of disputes, both successfully and unsuccessfully, but I've accepted the consensus either way. I've never personally needed to get a neutral third-party to opine, but if I did, I would respect that process and consequent decision making. You seem to have put in quite some research into this, and I agree it belongs somewhere on Wikipedia; the question is where. I don't think it belongs on its own page when we have an already established page. So I implore you to engage in discussion rather than be sneaky about this. You've asked Reddit to be swift, but it appears that I was swifter. SinhalaLion (talk) 13:38, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

• FWIW, I think that there are enough peer-reviewed sources indexed by Google Scholar addressing this as the "Tamil Genocide" such that a separate article can be justified. That having been said, a WP:PAGEDECIDE decision to merge is also a valid outcome if editors agree that the information here is most useful to the reader in the context of other articles. Separately from the decision of what to do with the article, discussion should definitely be taken up here, and the canvassing attempts on Reddit linked above are grounds to be blocked from editing if corrective measures are not taken in short order (i.e. delete or amend the Reddit posts, promise not to do it again). _signed, Rosguill ^talk 13:52, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

  How will subsequent discussion and decision-making be handled if we have a stream of canvassed new users supporting one side of the debate? While I want to have an open conversation, the integrity of the conversation has now been compromised (though to be fair, the effects don't seem to have been great so far). SinhalaLion (talk) 01:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  They have not been compromised. This conversation has 3 users and none seem to have come from reddit. The conversation still has integrity and is open. Everyone wants an open and honest discussion. If we have a stream of canvassed new users, I am not sure that break any rules in itself. New users innocently becoming aware of a wiki article and coming to discuss adds to the openness. Just ban the Beastmastah and prevent him from canvassing attempts. ChanakyanFOG (talk) 16:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Merge There is as noted above enough peer-reviewed sources indexed by Google Scholar addressing this as the "Tamil Genocide" such that a separate article can be justified.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 14:36, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Merge There are many independent reliable sources and peer-reviewed articles for this to have its own Wikipedia page, that other page is different from this, this page was just created, it is a stub at the moment and has a lot of content to be added and expanded and yeah I will retract the online posts. Beastmastah (talk) 07:25, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Merge clearly a notable topic with many reliable and independent references.Tame Rhino (talk) 18:34, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  Functionally, I don't see how this new page will be much different from the already-established page. I mean, the introduction paragraph to this page was taken from the other page and just reworded to remove mention of the LTTE's crimes and include some other verbiage that is also, in my view, redundant (e.g., having "sexual violence" and "rape"). As seen on the other page, numerous sources attest to the LTTE's crimes against Tamil civilians during the last stage of the war, so removing mention of their wrongdoing could violate WP:NPOV. It doesn't help that you canvassed two online communities that tend to support the LTTE and whose users, if they came to Wikipedia, would be averse to acknowledging its crimes. Yet if we maintain WP:NPOV and included its crimes, wouldn't this page just be the same as the other? SinhalaLion (talk) 12:00, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

  BTW your r/tamil post is still up. SinhalaLion (talk) 12:54, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

  response: This page is absolutely not redundant as it focuses on the genocide and not just the war crimes. This is like saying a page about Lionel Messi is redundant since we have a page about Argentina FC. The scope is different. This page is focusing on topics like the aftermath and international reaction to specifically the alleged genocide. Facts such as the memorial being built in Canada which has its own history but it wont be relevant to write about it in the War crimes during the final stages of the Sri Lankan Civil War page. It is also important to acknowledge the level of controversy that this genocide has and how impactful a western first world country acknowledging the genocide is. the court cases that caused the issue to be discussed and the turmoil should be discussed soon. It will be eventually as we add more info. It is also a great example of epistemic violence and a lot can be written regarding that as well that would have barely any relation at all in the war crimes page. As you said: there are enough peer-reviewed sources indexed by Google Scholar addressing this as the "Tamil Genocide" such that a separate article can be justified. There is a clear justification and this page has and will add more none redundant info as the ones outlined above.

  Therefore, this page is functionally different from any other wiki page available online and I am sure anyone with a neutral, honest perspective can see many relevant, different, and unique topics that can be written on this page that isn't just about war crimes itself.

  Also note: sorry for the earlier rule breaking where I left the comment in the wrong place. I am a relatively new user ChanakyanFOG (talk) 19:47, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

  This is like saying a page about Lionel Messi is redundant since we have a page about Argentina FC. The scope is different.

  This is a false equivalence because Lionel Messi had a life before joining the Argentinian team and will (hopefully) have one after retirement. Similarly, the Argentinian football team existed before Messi, and will (hopefully) exist after Messi's retirement. Bear in mind the intro to this article:

  "Tamil Genocide, also known as the Sri Lankan Tamil Genocide, or Eelam Tamil Genocide occurred during the final months of the Sri Lankan Civil War in 2009[11] with 40,000 to 169,769 Tamil civilians deaths by Sri Lankan military. The war crimes include attacks on civilians and civilian buildings; executions of combatants and prisoners; enforced disappearances by the Sri Lankan military and paramilitary groups backed by them; sexual violence by the Sri Lankan military; the systematic denial of food, medicine, and clean water by the government to civilians trapped in the war zone; child recruitment, hostage taking, Denial of humanitarian aid, Summary execution, Rape, Internment, Mass shootings by the Sri Lanka Armed Forces.[12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22]"

  Compared to the other page:

  "War crimes during the final stages of the Sri Lankan Civil War are war crimes and crimes against humanity which the Sri Lanka Armed Forces and the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (Tamil Tigers) have been accused of committing during the final months of the Sri Lankan Civil War in 2009.[11] The war crimes include attacks on civilians and civilian buildings by both sides; executions of combatants and prisoners by both sides; enforced disappearances by the Sri Lankan military and paramilitary groups backed by them; sexual violence by the Sri Lankan military; the systematic denial of food, medicine, and clean water by the government to civilians trapped in the war zone; child recruitment, hostage taking, use of military equipment in the proximity of civilians and use of forced labor by the Tamil Tigers.[12][13][14][15][16]"

  So they cover the exact same time period, and nearly identical events. The main exception seems to be the removal of any mention of LTTE crimes. Quite frankly, this new article comes across as a WP:NPOV-violating version of the other.

  This page is focusing on topics like the aftermath and international reaction to specifically the alleged genocide. Facts such as the memorial being built in Canada which has its own history but it wont be relevant to write about it in the War crimes during the final stages of the Sri Lankan Civil War page.

  We already have information like that; see War crimes during the final stages of the Sri Lankan Civil War#Commentary by notable personalities/entities. You are free to add Canada's actions to that section. You could even make a new section called "genocide recognition."

  It is also important to acknowledge the level of controversy that this genocide has and how impactful a western first world country acknowledging the genocide is. the court cases that caused the issue to be discussed and the turmoil should be discussed soon. It will be eventually as we add more info.

  See above. Also, I'm not sure that Canada's recognition of genocide is as solid as you seem to think it is, though that's another issue to be discussed.

  It is also a great example of epistemic violence and a lot can be written regarding that as well that would have barely any relation at all in the war crimes page.

  I'm not familiar with the concept of "epistemic violence." If you're referring to the Sri Lankan government's denial of war crimes in that time period in Mullivaikkal, we have already information like that on the other page, and again, you're free to add more information. If you're referring to something else, please explain.

  As you said: there are enough peer-reviewed sources indexed by Google Scholar addressing this as the "Tamil Genocide" such that a separate article can be justified. There is a clear justification and this page has and will add more none redundant info as the ones outlined above.

  I urge you to look check out the other page. If you feel that there are scope items to be put on this page that cannot be included there, please list them. However, from what I'm seeing so far, there's nothing on this page that has not already been or cannot be covered by the other page, which covers the exact same events, timeline, and location.

  Finally, I ask you to read my initial comment again. Beastmastah originally tried changing the "War crimes during the final stages of the Sri Lankan Civil War" title to "Tamil Genocide" (or thereabouts). I reverted the move on the basis that the change did not follow WP:RMCM. I offered them an opportunity to discuss moving the page on the talk page twice. Instead, Beastmastah not only circumvented Wikipedia best practices by not engaging in discussion, but also broke the rules when they did WP:Canvassing on Reddit. So I'm not intrinsically opposed to a page called "Tamil Genocide;" I just think there's no need for both articles that focus on pretty much the same issue as per the intro paragraph. I've asked for a move to the other page simply because it's the more established one, and there may be a reason it wasn't definitively called "Tamil Genocide" until recently. SinhalaLion (talk) 01:43, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  This is a false equivalence because Lionel Messi had a life before joining the Argentinian team and will (hopefully) have one after retirement. Similarly, the Argentinian football team existed before Messi, and will (hopefully) exist after Messi's retirement. Bear in mind the intro to this article:

  This is not a false equivalence. Messi had a life before and, yes, hopefully a life after retirement as well. similarly, there is a build up for what caused the genocide and an aftermath. Just because the genocide occurred during the final stages of the civil war, doesn't change that. The two pages having similar topics to discuss does not change that they focus on different things that have different things to mention. Do you want the intro to be better and more organized on the topics to be discussed? I will do it soon, is so.

  We already have information like that; see War crimes during the final stages of the Sri Lankan Civil War Commentary by notable personalities/entities. You are free to add Canada's actions to that section. You could even make a new section called "genocide recognition.

  No you have not. you are even suggesting I add details on Canadas political actions on that page since its not there. I wont. I am adding it here where I can write about in detail and mention the nuances of it.

  See above. Also, I'm not sure that Canada's recognition of genocide is as solid as you seem to think it is, though that's another issue to be discussed.

  It has huge ramifications. It was enough to have the Sri Lankan government to respond and reactionary protests to occur. But regardless you are right: it is a topic to be discussed. We would discuss it, in a neutral lens in this article on Tamil genocide. It makes no sense to discuss the impact and strength of Canada's recognition of genocide in detail in the war crimes articles. It definitely would make more sense to discuss it here, as there is alot to write about it.

  Epistemic violence in this context is the ongoing disagreement on whether it was a genocide or not. Topics such as micro and macro-scale oppression. Sri Lanka denying the genocide and the things they have done to hide the alleged genocide can be written in a lot of detail. These topics are barely touched upon in the other article. It is understandable since it's not very relavent to that article. We can also discuss things Tamil people have done to call it a genocide. Such as when did people first call it a genocide, when was the calls of genocide taken seriously by the UN, etc etc. These topics objectively are not mentioned in that article and have no reason to be there either.

  However, from what I'm seeing so far, there's nothing on this page that has not already been or cannot be covered by the other page, which covers the exact same events, timeline, and location.

  I have outlined multiple topics that do not overlap and there are so many more that can be considered. It is not hard to realize that an alleged genocide will have unique topics to discuss even if some overlap with the war crimes article. The page is new, its not going to change overnight but there is a clear justification for the stub and its growth to a complete article

  a reason it wasn't definitively called "Tamil Genocide" until recently.

  Well now it is definitively called tamil genocide and its time to update. progress takes time. The alleged events did not even occur 15 years ago in a third wold country. This article has the potential to be just as long as the other, potentially, with so many factors to consider.

  initial comment again. Beastmastah originally tried ...

  I do not know them. I have nothing to do with any of that. But yea sounds like they were not being very considerate of wiki policies and thats not cool given that wiki is pretty awesome. You sound like you were very reasonable with them. That said, I do not see how that is relavent at all. Ban that person or something.

  So I'm not intrinsically opposed to a page called "Tamil Genocide;" I just think there's no need for both articles that focus on pretty much the same issue as per the intro paragraph.

  it will not focus on only the same issues as outlined above. I mean its a genocide, its pretty easy to think of all the unique topics to be discussed. the "PLO movement and LTTE relations" and the reasons for the alliance is a clear cut example of a unique issue to be discussed. a group that is also calling for a genocide happens to align the tamil tiger terrorists? why? these are great and nuanced topics that will need deep diving, careful credible sources and will be a fun read that just isnt relavent to the war crimes article. finding sources for that will be fun.

  I encourage you to help us make this article especially since I am assuming you are Sinhalese, it will definitely help with neutrality and you seem well versed in wiki rules. I am not calling you a biased nationalist. you seem very fair. I would love your help. I am just an indian Canadian. ChanakyanFOG (talk) 07:22, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  similarly, there is a build up for what caused the genocide and an aftermath. Just because the genocide occurred during the final stages of the civil war, doesn't change that.

  These are both easily covered by the scope of the other article. We have a "Background" section already, and a lot of the article anyways is aftermath.

  No you have not. you are even suggesting I add details on Canadas political actions on that page since its not there. I wont. I am adding it here where I can write about in detail and mention the nuances of it.

  I said we have information "like that" there, not exactly the same. You write that you are "adding it here where I can write about in detail and mention the nuances of it" even though you can easily do so on the other page.

  It has huge ramifications. It was enough to have the Sri Lankan government to respond and reactionary protests to occur.

  What I mean is that a month before the Tamil Genocide Remembrance Day, the Canadian Ambassador to the UN, Bob Rae, claimed that he was not aware of the government of Canada taking an official stand that what happened in 2009 was genocide. Earlier in the video, the MP Garnnett Genuis said that the House of Commons recognizing a genocide does not necessarily imply a similar, official position of the government of Canada. There was also an article published a month later which claimed that "Canada’s Foreign Affairs Ministry had informed the Sri Lankan government that Canada had not made any finding that genocide had taken place in Sri Lanka." In my opinion, this is just a clash between Canada's domestic and international politics.

  Sri Lanka denying the genocide and the things they have done to hide the alleged genocide can be written in a lot of detail. These topics are barely touched upon in the other article. It is understandable since it's not very relavent to that article. We can also discuss things Tamil people have done to call it a genocide. Such as when did people first call it a genocide, when was the calls of genocide taken seriously by the UN, etc etc. These topics objectively are not mentioned in that article and have no reason to be there either.

  They are very relevant to the other article because they pertain to the exact events defined by the article, and you're free to add those details.

  Well now it is definitively called tamil genocide and its time to update. progress takes time. The alleged events did not even occur 15 years ago in a third wold country. This article has the potential to be just as long as the other, potentially, with so many factors to consider.

  I mean there are already Tamil users on this website who could have done so before but didn't. If this conversation goes nowhere, I may call them in (along with Sinhalese users, to have multiple perspectives).

  That said, I do not see how that is relavent at all. Ban that person or something.

  People of a certain political opinion streaming into discussion on Wikipedia due to being incited to do so is what WP:CAN aims to avoid. I guess you're right in a sense since Wikipedia consensus isn't dependent on majority opinion. 100 users could come in from the canvassing and disagree with me, but if their arguments are poor, then Wikipedia recognizes that 100 x 0 = 0. That said, do you think it's a good idea for random social media users with strong political opinions to flood Wikipedia due to ideological canvassing? Certainly not those from r/tamil or r/eelam, the subreddits that were initially canvassed, and I wouldn't hold my breath for any others unless they prove themselves, including Sinhalese users.

  Right now, our discussion is whether there should be two articles that, in my view, too strongly overlap for the need for both of them. Had Beastmastah taken up my original request, you could actually have the "War Crimes..." title changed to simply "Tamil Genocide." Wouldn't that be just amazing? Yet the opportunity was blown (or at least, made more difficult) because intransigence was the hill to die on for them.

  I mean its a genocide, its pretty easy to think of all the unique topics to be discussed. the "PLO movement and LTTE relations" and the reasons for the alliance is a clear cut example of a unique issue to be discussed. a group that is also calling for a genocide happens to align the tamil tiger terrorists? why? these are great and nuanced topics that will need deep diving, careful credible sources and will be a fun read that just isnt relavent to the war crimes article. finding sources for that will be fun.

  FYI, just because something is "fun" or interesting (or even true and relevant) doesn't mean that it's Wikipedia worthy. If you want to discuss the PLO and LTTE relations, you should find that there are sources that comment on the relationship because as per WP:PRIMARY, we can't synthesize primary sources to arrive at our own conclusions.

  I encourage you to help us make this article especially since I am assuming you are Sinhalese, it will definitely help with neutrality and you seem well versed in wiki rules.

  If the consensus is that this page should remain - and to be clear, WP:CON is not based on majority opinion - I could "help with neutrality." But it may come across as "bothsideism" or "victim blaming." For reference, I've added details on anti-Sinhalese violence by Tamil rioters during the 1956 anti-Tamil pogrom, 1958 anti-Tamil pogrom, 1977 anti-Tamil pogrom and that much of the Sinhalese violence against Tamils was retaliation for those Tamil attacks on Sinhalese. I've given sources attesting to this. Does it sting? Maybe, but I think it's a relevant truth, demonstrated by primary sources at the least and arguably in some secondary sources. Nick Danforth, in a piece about the Armenian genocide writes, "mass killings seldom fit the black-and-white narratives that nationalist historians and their readers crave. The guilt or innocence of individuals can be absolute, but it is not easily tallied along national or ethnic lines," and I believe that the mainstream literature on the Sri Lankan war takes this stance, regardless of what I, you, Sinhalese, or Tamils personally feel about the situation.

  I have outlined multiple topics that do not overlap and there are so many more that can be considered.

  And thank you for demonstrating why it's useless to have two separate pages as things stand now. Despite the fact that this page is called "Tamil Genocide", none of the subtopics you added are directly about what happened in the last stages of the war, and only few of the words are. Rather, your topics pertain to the aftermath, especially politically and culturally, and that too the aftermath of the war crimes in the final stages of the war. Perhaps subconsciously you agree with me that the other article already covers (what should be) the primary scope of this article as per the latter's name: the Tamil genocide. You claimed that there were many topics that would fit "Tamil Genocide" and not the other page, yet you have not added a single one despite having every opportunity to do so. This page would be better named "Recognition of Tamil genocide" given what you yourself have proposed as subtopics.

  Anyways, as per WP:CON, consensus is achieved via negotiation and compromise. I think a much better solution would be to rename the other article as "Tamil Genocide," though be warned, I have some objections even then. An alternative would be to expand the scope of this article to before 2009, though the literature using the term "genocide" tends to focus on 2009. Either way, there will have to be further discussion, either on the other page (if we rename) or this page (if we expand the scope). SinhalaLion (talk) 02:15, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

• Actually, you made a number of reposts of your original post on various subreddits, which could also qualify as canvassing since, in the post title, it says "contribute and expand it now." SinhalaLion (talk) 13:00, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Citation and new intro

I still need to complete the citation of some things but i just added some clear stuff that is uniquely related to the genocide. there is so much more topics like this that are to be discussed in detail. Also note I think the history i wrote for the memorial may be a little biased. THis will be fixed when i cite properly and adjust accordingly ChanakyanFOG (talk) 16:50, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Since you've been kind enough to engage in respectful dialogue with me, I'll give you some pointers. I don't mean to be rude or nasty, but a lot of what you've written is atypical of how Wikipedia articles are typically written. While you may refer to WP:MOS, I suggest you read some already established pages to get an idea of how articles should be written. Here are mine so far: 1987 Eastern Province massacres, Eravur massacre, 1989 Kandy massacre, and Kurukkalmadam massacre. You can afford to make your writing more concise and objective. I'll give you some specific examples of where you can improve:

• Tamil Genocide, also known as the Sri Lankan Tamil Genocide, or Eelam Tamil Genocide are terms that encapsulate a series of devastating events leading to, during, and following the Sri Lankan Civil War, a complex and deeply tragic chapter in modern history. Cut out "a complex and deeply tragic chapter in modern history" because it's subjective, uncited, and bloated. Also cut out "devastating" - again, an unobjective term.
• The term "genocide" in this context is used to describe the systematic and widespread targeting of Tamil civilians, combatants, and political figures by the Sri Lankan government forces, with allegations of atrocities including mass killings, enforced disappearances, and sexual violence. The conflict and its brutal end have sparked international debate and led to calls for accountability and justice. No need for the explainer on how genocide is used. Just link to Genocide and let readers explore for themselves.
• The build-up to the genocide can be understood through the lens of post-colonial strife and ethnic nationalism. Unnecessary verbiage.
• In certain Sri Lankan government websites such as the one for the high commission of Sri Lanka in Singapore Ditto.
• A major town in Canada, Brampton, that has a significant South Asian representation, agreed to create a memorial. Just say Brampton or , the city of Brampton in Canada.
• This Bill was not taken lightly by Sinhalese groups who staged even more protests. Could condense it to "Sinhalese groups staged even more protests in response" or something like that.
• You seem to use primary sources to draw conclusions, which isn't allowed as per WP:PRIMARY. For example, you write " the path towards reconciliation and justice remains fraught with challenges, as political, ethnic, and historical complexities continue to influence the discourse around the Tamil Genocide" but cite a statement from the Canadian government. If the statement doesn't itself state or imply it, you can't use it as evidence of the claim. The same could be said for your usage of the UK Parliament.
• The Human Rights Pulse article seems to be written by a student and probably is not WP:RS.

In general, this reads more like a research paper than a Wikipedia article, which is supposed to be a dry summary of mainstream literature on the subject. SinhalaLion (talk) 02:41, 22 March 2024 (UTC)