Talk:The Sengol

so many thing wrong about this article

1. This item doesn't require such a long article.
2. poor copyediting. looks like everything was copy pasted from news article
3. why does the article have 'The' in the title
4. The words sengol is a Tamil word used for sceptre since antiquity. not just this one particular one.

ChandlerMinh (talk) 12:53, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Sengol is the Tamil term for the right sceptre (as opposed to the cruel sceptre is called the Kodungol) as described in ancient Tamil moral treatises, such as the Kural. It symbolizes a ruler's right way of ruling. This article is about a metal staff that represented the symbolic transfer of power during Indian Independence. Rasnaboy (talk) 05:02, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

I think so. Let's hear others opinions. Kautilyapundit (talk) 12:22, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

"""The words sengol is a Tamil word used for sceptre since antiquity. not just this one particular one."""

Second this. This topic is not article worthy. If this sceptre has a unique name it should be moved to a subsection of the parliament page. Else it belongs in the 'Sceptre' article. SubtleChuckle (talk) 16:28, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

title

I have changed the title from The Sengol to Sengol (sceptre) as per WP:TITLE ChandlerMinh (talk) 13:32, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Fact check

Sengol | Evidence thin on government’s claims about the sceptre ChandlerMinh (talk) 05:03, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

The Hindu newspaper is allegedly criticized for its leftist leanings aftermath the takeover by N Ram. So, it is better to provide references from other valid resources as well to provide a neutral point of view. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 13:34, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

The newspaper merely points out to the lack of solid historical sources pre-2023. This has nothing to do with the editor's political leanings. SubtleChuckle (talk) 15:49, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

The Hindu is WP:RS, "alleged criticism" is not a thing that matter here ChandlerMinh (talk) 16:01, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

not pure gold

the gold used in this about 800 grams. which won't be enough to make a full 5 feet long sceptre. inside is silver. ChandlerMinh (talk) 07:32, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Any source pls? Kautilyapundit (talk) 12:25, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Consensus

Hello editors, @Rahil1610: @Bsskchaitanya: @Lawofoctaves: @TheAafi: @Parimaltek: @Rasnaboy: @Arasksk:@GhostInTheMachine: @Hedgeunkil: @Onel5969: @খাঁ শুভেন্দু: please reach a consensus and kindly don't indulge in mindlessly reverting and changing the content of the page. the page should be neutral and should address both side's arguments. please follow all WP guidelines. ChandlerMinh (talk) 09:48, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

@ChandlerMinh ofcourse. i agree. i edit with sources and i support neutral view Rahil1610 (talk) 09:50, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Please do not mention me unnecessarily. I have not edited this page except for removing an "orphan" tag. ─ The Aafī (talk) 11:29, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

@ChandlerMinh Wikipedia should not be a place of political debates. We are here to add content from various resources. Recently, I have added a photo from an archive of then leading Telugu paper. Every Telugu scholar with basic knowledge about Andhra history knows the authenticity of that era Telugu newspapers such as Andhra Patrika, Krishna Patrika and Golconda Patrika. For your information, during that time Andhra Patrika was taking of Indian National Congress and in a way critical of then opposition parties such as Justice party and Communist Party of India. This newspaper played major role in spreading the Gandhiji's ideals and seeds of Indian nationalism through the Telugu areas of Madras presidency and was established by an Congressman, a great patriot, Sri Kasinadhuni Nageswara Rao garu. So, I suppose there is no need to doubt the authenticity from this source. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 13:31, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Please ensure that you do not make a logical fallacy when using the talk pages. (argumentum ad verecundiam) SubtleChuckle (talk) 16:20, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

I never questioned you or your source. I just tagged everyone to inform them involving in this article to make the page better. Also, the description of the image you added says "Head of Thiruvaduthurai Mutt, His holiness Sri Ambavana Bandara Sannadha handed over golden sceptre to Sri Jawaharlal Nehru on the occasion of the Independence Day". This is not enough for proving that sengol symbolised transfer of power. if you have the complete translation of the article, kindly add it so that there is clarity on that. ChandlerMinh (talk) 15:54, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

@ChandlerMinh Hi Chandler. Thanks for your clarification and appreciate your good intent. My task is to provide whatever resource is available and NOT to prove any point. There are many unanswered questions on this issue. Was the Aadheenam aware that it was just a gift which will be used as a walking stick afterwards or not. Also, did they gave it as PERSONAL gift to Nehru? Was Nehru deliberate in using it as his personal gift or it was some mistake? I suppose, this sengol issue itself can be a PhD thesis topic. On a personal note, I was surprised why a Telugu newspaper highlighted some personal gift to Nehru by a remote Tamil Saivites Math. Anyways, Wikipedia is NOT a place for original research so I keep these questions for myself. As the Tamil saying quotes 'Vaimaye Vellum' (truth alone triumphs). Bsskchaitanya (talk) 05:08, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Sengol and Tamils

Sengol has been a symbol of power and righteousness rule of Tamil kings especially Chozhas. So, sengol is a general object representing a king's rule in historic period and the sengol presented to Nehru is just another Sengol. So, this article sengol must be representing about the general values of sengol rather than the specific Sengol of nehru and this page should not be deleted.... Vishwa Sundar (talk) 16:37, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

> this article sengol must be representing about the general values of sengol

You are looking for Sceptre. Sceptres (Sengol) have been widely used outside the Indian subcontinent, therefore it would be appropriate for the article to be merged with Sceptre. SubtleChuckle (talk) 16:56, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Removal of Proposed deletion

Rationale of nominator:

Trivial topic that hugely violates WP:NRVE, since there is no pre-2023 source that describes the sceptre as anything beyond a gift presented to Nehru. Also refer this page. Can be merged with the Indian Parliament page. SubtleChuckle (talk) 15:46, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

It had its history according to several sources and news paper but wasn't popular. Now it's installed in New Parliament building and became widely popular as a symbol of India as well as media coverage. People will ofcourse come to know what it is. I don't think for the delition. Rahil1610 (talk) 02:42, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

The newspapers merely quote what the ruling party and the religious establisments said. That does not mean that such events actually happened. Please let me know of sources from the independence era that back up what is said in the article.

SubtleChuckle (talk) 03:04, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

@SubtleChuckle go to the history header, an image has been added which is written in Tamil or Telugu. Whatever it's history is. but it is now installed in parliament with a ceremony beside ashoke chakra, so it has become a part of history now along with new parliament building. deletion of this page is stupid and it would be yor personal problem. i am done here. Your proposal for deletion has been removed many times by several senior users. Rahil1610 (talk) 03:08, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

My rationale:

The Sengol has significant coverage Wikipedia:SIGCOV in recent history for New Parliament building. [1] Even today there was an elaborate ceremony over the handing over of Sengol. Newspapers in India has dedicated articles on the Sengol. A comprehensive WP:AfD can be proposed by the nominator; however this does not quality under PROD. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:59, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

And nominator should not replace the notice once removed. Equine-man (talk) 17:11, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose the deletion as already the 'sengol' handed over to Nehru by the Adheenam gained enough importance through news coverage, debates, and most importantly the formal installation of it in the New parliament building by PM Modi. Just deleting the article in Wikipedia cannot undo the set of recent events. Wikipedia should be a platform to provide valid information to readers who wants to know about 'sengol'. All the political nuances surrounding may be added in a separate section. So, keep the article but we must make sure that it follows strictly the guidelines of Wikipedia. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 09:12, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

  I agree here. It got its mention in the history. People will come to know about it. Rahil1610 (talk) 10:08, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

  Please mention this on the Deletion discussion page. 67.83.187.221 (talk) 16:06, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Siva holding Sengol

there are Natraj murtis holding Sengol. So deletion req seems unfair and motivated. Satish-ansingkar (talk) 01:32, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Agree Rahil1610 (talk) 02:43, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

My URL unfortunately indicates that this in an English Encyclopedia. That'd mean the article should be moved to Sceptre#India. SubtleChuckle (talk) 02:48, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

@SubtleChuckle this is now as like a symbol which is placed in new parliament building. it should have it's own page. and history. and don't add deletion topic again and again. Rahil1610 (talk) 02:50, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

There are atleast 10 other artifacts present that originated from different parts of the India that are kept in the parliament. My point was that this 'sengol' was merely one such gift to Nehru and there are no pre-2023 sources to back the absurds claimed in the story. If you believe this article does not need a deletion, please state your point in the deletion discussion page instead of removing it.

SubtleChuckle (talk) 02:56, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

@SubtleChuckle it has been removed several times by most senior users. and you are adding it again and again. It seems your personal problem. Sengol has become widely popular and even if it was gift but now it's installed in parliament building with Ashoka Chakra. Importance of it has been improved now. No need more discussion as per it's removed several times. Rahil1610 (talk) 03:02, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Ruling party propaganda that gains popularity does not necessarily mean they are article worthy. For an encyclopedia, you'd need solid sources from the independance era that states what is claimed by the article.

SubtleChuckle (talk) 03:10, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

@SubtleChuckle Oh. so you are here to preach what is propoganda or not. This page already had its neutral view. For your information, each lines in this page has its sources that's why otherwise you can't add that line and that's why it's an encyclopaedia. Rahil1610 (talk) 03:20, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Newspapers quoting religious establishments who themselves weren't alive at that time? That doesn't belong here. SubtleChuckle (talk) 03:35, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Add the sengol image

an image of sengol from New Parliament building must be added. Rahil1610 (talk) 02:45, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Sengol.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:08, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Indic Script

Why is indic script used in this article? Md. Rayan Alam Rifat (talk) 05:29, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Removed. TrangaBellam (talk) 03:34, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the usage of references from The Wire

To keep Wikipedia articles as NOP it is better to provide sources that are blemished with a history of fake news and propaganda. So, I suggest the editors avoid the usage of The Wire as a credible source and replace it with more reliable alternative ones. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 05:26, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

See my note at your t/p. TrangaBellam (talk) 03:34, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Feedback

Constructive criticism on my edits is welcome. TrangaBellam (talk) 05:49, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Article title naming and scope mismatch

• This is overall feedback and not feedback for any individual editor edits

Descriptions in short description and about seem to scope-mismatch at topic level itself. Scope in given Short description includes pre-1947 historical Sengols whereas practically this article seem to have coverage for Sengol-(1947) as mentioned in about description.

• • {{Short description|Symbolic sceptre in Indian history}}
  • {{About|a gold sceptre installed in the Parliament of India..

IMO, if possible, general Sengol article should be separate and need not be overwhelmed by Sengol-(1947). I suggest present article be renamed to similar effect and a new article be created for Sengols since historical times. Bookku (talk) 08:35, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

There exists no scholarship on "Sengols since historical times", to write anything about. TrangaBellam (talk) 08:14, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

I suggest a revisit first sentence in the article

Sengol (IAST: ceṅkōl) is an gold-plated silver sceptre, installed in India's new Parliament House. ..

. Is this the best and factual definition we would introduce to an uninitiated reader with? (*appropriate article a, an, the is minor issue c/e can address).

• Alternatively how this will look

  1947-Sengol / Sengol (1947) (IAST: ceṅkōl) is the gold-plated silver sceptre, installed in India's new Parliament House. ..

  ?

For separate article for "Sengols since historical times" we would need relevant WP:RS, my google books study suggest that likely be possible by including Kannada and Tamil sources and can be tried in draft namespace. Mean while simple 'Sengol' title can be redirected to Sceptre#India. What other editors think? Bookku (talk) 07:19, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Alternatively how this will look - Stupid.

Anyway, can you suggest a couple of sources from your "google books study" that attests to the evidence of a Sengol tradition in Chola spans, as has been claimed by the incumbent government in India? TrangaBellam (talk) 08:41, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Who funded 1947 Sengol?

Any info on, Who funded 1947 Sengol? Bookku (talk) 08:52, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Obviously, the matha? TrangaBellam (talk) 11:45, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Keep Introduction NPOV

As per WP:NPOV, at least the Introcuction needs to be kept neutral. As per WP:TALK, let any major edits to Introduction, especially realted to narrative, be first discussed on Talk page RogerYg (talk) 02:52, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi User talk:TrangaBellam, I think we should have more neutral language in Introduction instead of talking about certain claims and narratives: "In 2023, incumbent prime minister Narendra Modi propagated an ahistorical narrative, claiming the Sengol as a symbol of the transfer of power from the British regime unto Indians, and installed it in the new Parliament."

Hi User talk:Rasnaboy, please give your input on how to make Introduction more neutral. RogerYg (talk) 06:47, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

NPOV does not mean bending over backwards to maintain a "neutral language". See WP:FALSEBALANCE. A preponderance of reliable sources report that Modi/GOI floated an ahistorical narrative, and we say so outright. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:52, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

What say you, DaxServer? TrangaBellam (talk) 09:51, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

I must have missed your ping. I have read the above message. I will reply when I have a moment. — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 06:36, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I think we should avoid cherry picking few Newspaper sources to claim preponderance of sources for one claim RogerYg (talk) 15:29, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Shall I proceed to cite similar articles from The Indian Express, The Telegraph, etc.? TrangaBellam (talk) 18:56, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Many reliable sources such as The Indian Express have both points of view, but edits with neutral view are being deleted without credible reason RogerYg (talk) 05:19, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi DaxServer, I request that all editors follow WP editing guidelines such as WP:NPOV and WP:TALK on this page

For example, the cropped Sengol image added by DaxServer, was deleted by User talk:TrangaBellam just mentioning "Horrible image".(07:10, 9 June 2023‎ TrangaBellam talk contribs‎ 11,814 bytes −209‎ Horrible picture undo thank Tag: Visual edit). Is that a credible reason or personal opinion?

I request senior editors like User talk:TrangaBellam will allow neutral edits from other Wiki editors, that are from reliable sources. RogerYg (talk) 05:29, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Is Scroll a reliable source?

Does Scroll pass WP:RS? I don't see it in the list either. Can anybody check and clarify? The Scroll article's content seems more like the author's personal opinion, rather than news article. Rasnaboy (User talk:Rasnaboy) 05:50, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree on that. Content with Scroll reference should be removed as per WP:RS. 67.83.187.221 (talk) 06:14, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

The list is not exhaustive — if you doubt the reliability of Scroll.in, you can launch a RfC at WP:RSN. That said, there is no need to scrape the barrel since the same critiques can be sourced from NYT, WaPo, etc. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:48, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Chola traditions - or rather, the lack of it

1. Why call it [Sengol] Chola, and not Nayaka or Thanjavur Maratha? During the reign of these early modern rulers in the 17th and 18th centuries, we have much more extensive mentions of Sengols.
   — Kanisetti, Anirudh (2023-06-01). "Go beyond Sengol: Why there's such hype about Chola dynasty in India today?". ThePrint.

2. The Thiruvavaduthurai adheenam claims it was the practice adopted in the Chola period during the coronation of a king. The irony is that the Thiruvavaduthurai mutt was created in the later Chola period by which time all the known Chola kings had ceased to exist. To date, there is no documentary proof for such practices being adopted by the Chola dynasty.
   — Chandru, K. (2023-05-30). "In the eye of the sceptre". The Times of India. ISSN 0971-8257.

   TrangaBellam (talk) 07:34, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

While I agree that more specific mentions of [Sengol] are for Pandya and Nayak Tamil kings, so it may be called Tamil tradition instead of Chola tradition, but there are also mentions of [Sengol] by Chola historians as below:

1. King is variously described as Sengol-valavan, the king who established just rule, Ponni-nadan, the ruler of Kaveri basin.. who established the Chola tiger crest (Page 291)
   — Balasubrahmanyam, S (1977), Middle Chola Temples Rajaraja I to Kulottunga I (A.D. 985-1070), Oriental Press, ISBN 9789060236079

2. Tamil monarchs prided themselves on the justness of their government. The concept of Sengol has been dwelt upon by Valluvar in more than one chapter of his work. The king was warned that royal justice would ensure a happy future for him here and hereafter and that injustice would lead to divine punishment. (CHAPTER XIX THE JUDICIARY)
   — Subrahmanian, N (1971), History of Tamilnad (to A.D. 1336), Koodal Publishers

   RogerYg (talk) 04:32, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Why is no content being allowed from a neutral viewpoint (from Hindu) such as below

1. The Sengol — A historic sceptre with a deep Tamil Nadu connection: A well-known historian and researcher of Sangam Literature told 'The Hindu' that the handing over of a sceptre to denote the transfer of power has been in practice for nearly 2,000 years since the Sangam Age and finds mention in texts such as the Purananooru, Kurunthogai, Perumpaanatrupadai, and Kalithogai. A puranic story also mentions the deity Madurai Meenakshi Amman giving the sceptre to the Nayaka kings..
   — Charan, Sai (2023-05-24). "The Sengol — A historic sceptre with a deep Tamil Nadu connection". thehindu.com.

   RogerYg (talk) 08:33, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

   Replying in a while. TrangaBellam (talk) 12:54, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Golden Stick or Golden Walking stick

The article in the History section says that the Sengol was housed in Allahabad Museum, labelled as a 'Golden Stick gifted to Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru'. This is sourced back to an article in The Wire, which includes an image from ANI report that shows this text 'Golden Stick gifted to Pt Jawahar Lal Nehru' on a paper but without the Sengol behind it. On the other hand, there are articles in India Today and The Hindu, which say that the Sengol was labelled as 'Golden Walking stick gifted to Pt. Jawaharlal Nehru'. These reports include the image of text, along with the image of Sengol behind it. Now what's the truth behind these labelling fallacies, was the Sengol mentioned as 'Golden Stick' or 'Golden Walking stick' throughout its stay in that museum. Rim sim (talk) 12:31, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree with Rim sim that this 'The Hindu' article is clearly more Reliable Source than 'The Wire' article.

1. Sources in the museum described the episode as an eye-opener, blaming their lack of trained and motivated staff for their delay in understanding the true identity and history of the sceptre.. Displayed in the Nehru Gallery of the museum as part of the personal collection of the first Prime Minister, the Sengol was wrongly labelled as a “Golden Walking stick gifted to Pt. Jawaharlal Nehru"
   — Kumar, Anuj (2023-05-24). "Allahabad Museum failed to identify Sengol because no one could translate Tamil engraving". thehindu.com.

   RogerYg (talk) 23:34, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

   No real conflict exists here between the two sources. The Hindu article is from 24 May when the common understanding was that it was displayed as a "golden walking stick", at a time when that specific claim hadn't been scrutinised yet; the articles derives it from "sources in the museum". The Wire article is a product of later scrutiny, published on 29 May. If The Hindu article was published afterwards then there'd some grounds. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 07:02, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

   Visual evidence of the Sengol along with the displayed text in the museum, as provided in the articles of The Hindu and India Today clearly suggest that the Sengol was labelled as "Golden Walking stick". Whereas article in The Wire only provides an image of displayed text - without the Sengol, as proof for their claim. This makes the article of The Wire look more of a politically motivated 'hitjob' (those versed in Indian politics and its numerous biased media houses may vouch for it). Considering the dubious nature of these labelling claims, it would be better to write about both the claims in the article's text or just mention that the Sengol was housed in the Allahabad museum without all this labelling (mis/dis)information. Rim sim (talk) 10:56, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

   The image in The Hindu article has no visible display text, it's far too blurry to be read and is acquired from a third party, i.e they hadn't gone there to click the photo themselves.

   The image where the display text is visible is only present in the India Today article; part of the link address retains the term "whatsapp_image_2023-05-24", i.e it is quite possibly derived from a forward on whatsapp and could easily have been manipulated prior. This wouldn't be the first time India Today has published social media misinformation without basic fact-checking or engaged in poor image sourcing, they also lack attribution and seem to appropriate photos as their own when they aren't. In fact, the India Today article itself contains the exact same ahistorical narrative of the Sengol being a symbol of British transfer power to Indians that The Hindu has fact checked. This is not a generally reliable source.

   Whether it was labelled as a "golden stick" or "golden walking stick" is a minor detail and it can chalked upto The Hindu just overlooking it while scrutinising the main narrative of the "transfer of power", seeing as they haven't paid much attention to it and relied on third parties. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 14:20, 14 June 2023 (UTC)