Template talk:Macedonians (ethnic group): Difference between revisions

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Do not present minority view held in Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia only as mainstream! The western scholarship does not recognize the First Bulgarian empire as "Macedonian Empire". This POV will be removed. Mr. Neutron 20:32, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry, but we have only your word that it is "minority view". It is perhaps minority view here in Wikipedia because of several aggresive nationalist Bulgarian editors of Wikipedia who want to impose opposite view by all cost. Regarding western scholarship, the problem with that scholarship is same as problem with Wikipedia - Bulgarians were simply more agressive to impose their view to western scholarship, which do not mean that this view is a Holly Bible. PANONIAN 17:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ummm, what is all this Frankenstein of a compilation? For reference, check Britannica's disclaimer. Most stuff listed here concerns Macedonia (region), not to mention History of Greece, History of Bulgaria and History of Persia (satrapy). I'm removing irrelevant stuff. Niko Silver 20:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do you want to say that Republic of Macedonia have no history before 20th century at all? I am sorry, but everything what in history was located in the territory of present-day Republic of Macedonia is part of its history, especially former states and provinces that had same name as modern country and that were partially located in its territory. PANONIAN 17:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, and the history of the region can be found here. --Laveol ^T 19:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@Panonian: No, I'm not saying there's no history before; nor am I saying that there is. All I am saying is that the history of before is never included in credible academic sources as part of history of RoM, unless with

disclaimers of the sort of Britannica above and then too briefly and with constant references to Greece Bulgaria and Serbia respectively; and except only in partisan highly discredited sources. As such, I find it unsou rced to include all that here, especially on the grounds of the same name! Please bear in mind that this is the exact Macedonistic doctrine that Macedonia (country)=Macedonia (region) and other irredentist bullshit of the sort (see also United Macedonia). Disambiguation is a hard issue in Macedonia; and I am the first to suggest that "continuity" (historical or genetic) is immaterial and silly, however I am strongly opposed to misinformation. Please read the featured Macedonia (terminology) (of which I am the proud main contributor) to see who was what and when, because that's all we need to describe in WP. On a side nationalistic note, me and you were supposed to be on the "same side" in most issues, and I appreciate the fact that you may sound against the flow, but this is not our issue here, because neither of us is a nationalist. Our issue is correct information based on credible academic sources. Niko Silver 19:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NickoSilver why do you feel you need to insert yourself into every matter related to Macedonia? This template was not created by some "evil Macedonian nationalist" it was created by a non-objective observer who wanted to create a template about the history of RoM. Just because a fringe group deny it, it is not fair to be one-sided. This view is held by many countries in the region and Bulgaria seems to be the only one that denies it. If we want to be progressive it is a good idea to move forward and present all views, rather then the minority one held by Bulgaria. Alexander the great1 20:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And which are those countries? Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia. Mr. Neutron 20:28, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps, but Bulgaria is the only country in the region that thinks he was Bulgarian.Alexander the great1 20:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps not. Wester scholarship+slavic non-Serbnian thinks the same way. Mr. Neutron 20:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Neutron do you have any sources from the REGION (balkan) that think he was Bulgarian? This is important, as they would be more reliable then what some historian in England thinks that has never been to the area.Alexander the great1 20:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly. According to Greek history, he was Bulgarian. Remember: Basil II. Mr. Neutron 21:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Greeks support anything Anti-MacedonianAlexander the great1 22:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Al, you are crossing the line here. See especially the first bullet. Niko Silver 22:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NikoSilver, please show me where I have made a "personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia" as that link says. I simply asked you a question.

Alexander the great1 22:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What question? You posted an explicit racial/ethnic insult right above. Incidentally, who's "he", in your comment of 20:44? Niko Silver 22:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tsar Samuil Perhaps, but Bulgaria is the only country in the region that thinks Tsar Samuil was Bulgarian.Alexander the great1 22:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Huh?? What have you got wrong here? Who gives a rat's ass what countries think? Wikipedia only includes information on what academics think. And these academics have to be third party and above all reliable. Including information that countries think otherwise is defamatory, and I strongly discourage you from doing so. Not to mention that officially none of the countries you state has the audacity of officially stating things contrary to academic consensus. Unless you have a source, of course. Niko Silver 22:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are many “academics” in Serbia and Macedonia that have come to the consensus that Tsar Samuil was a Macedonian. Ignoring that only makes the whole thing sound one-sided and a bit fundamentalist to not accept any theory other then the one of Bulgaria. Alexander the great1 23:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What question? my first "bullet", if I understand what you mean.Alexander the great1 22:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was referring to the first bullet of the page WP:NPA which I linked. Niko Silver 22:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I did not make any explicit racial/ethnic insult as it was not aimed at anyone, it was a general statement. Although there are many instances where Greece has acted very anti-Macedonian. You should read this [1]

And this[2] Alexander the great1 23:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes there are instances, and I need not see your links. I also need not remind you that generalizing to all Greeks includes those present. And actually what you said is totally incoherent, because Neutron highlighted that the guy who kicked Samuil's ass went to history as Voulgaroktonos, literally "Boulgari-cide" in Greek. Not "Macedoni-cide", and certainly that would be really funny, since he himself was the distinguished member of the Macedonian dynasty of the Byzantine Empire (aka "Imperium Graecum")!! Niko Silver 23:18, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So, claiming that the Greeks had an... Anti-Macedonian agenda back in 1004 AD, is simply amusing. Niko Silver 23:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I'd appreciate if you could post links or works or the names of those academics you mentioned. I need them for my collection of propaganda (state-sponsored or simply for ill-perceived national "good"). Niko Silver 23:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you wanted links on propaganda, I already posted two above.Alexander the great1 23:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Read me above admitting Greeks may have instances of expressing what you describe as "Anti-Macedonian sentiment". Now post here what I asked for, please. Niko Silver 00:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you are asking for links for your “collection of propaganda”, I am sorry but I cannot provide links to propaganda related to this topic as it is not propaganda. Alexander the great1 01:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Post those that aren't propaganda in your view. You need to justify your claim of 23:13 that "There are many “academics” in Serbia and Macedonia that have come to the consensus that Tsar Samuil was a Macedonian." Niko Silver 01:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a link from the BBC a “western” source: Tsar Samuil created a strong Macedonian medieval kingdom with its center at Ohrid. Soon he conquered parts of Greece, a large part of Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Dalmatia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A3352286 Alexander the great1 01:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fantastic. See my response: Talk:Alexander_the_Great#Ethnic_Macedonians. Anything else? Niko Silver 02:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The template

Are we going to also link ethnic groups? I thought this is a page of political entities. Mr. Neutron 16:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is no rule that only political entities should be mentioned here. Other things important for Macedonian history could be here as well. Just compare Template:History of Bulgaria where you have link to article named National awakening of Bulgaria or Template:History of Serbia where you have link to article named First Serbian Uprising, etc, etc - these are not political entities, so why we should have here only political entities? PANONIAN 22:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, they are not political entities, but "Brsjaci" was neither uprising (aimed at creating of a political entity) neither a political entity. I've also removed the Ilinden-Preobrazhenie uprising, as there is no mention of "Macedonians" organizing or participating in it. Mr. Neutron 23:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But this is ridiculous. Who else participated in Ilinden-Preobrazhenie uprising if not Macedonians? Also, there is no rule that only political entities or uprisings should be in this template (i.e. "only events aimed at creating of a political entity"), but all other important things related to country history could be here. Both, Brsjaci and Ilinden-Preobrazhenie uprising are very important for Macedonian history and since they are mentioned in the article named History of the Republic of Macedonia there is no reason why template cannot have these links as well. By the way, Ilinden-Preobrazhenie uprising did created Kruševo Republic, so I really do not understand why you deleted this. PANONIAN 11:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To answer Panonian, in the Ilinden-Preobrazhenie uprising, in addition to Macedonians (population of the Bulgarian region of Macedonia), participated also Tracians from Southern Tracia (another Bulgarian region). Lantonov 13:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Macedonians did not participate in the Uprising, see the main article, it was organized and executed by Bulgarians. As for ethnic groups, there is no evidence Brsjaci are related to the ethnic Macedonians, as they are in the Bulgarian slavic group. I dare you include Ancient Macedonians? Mr. Neutron 14:07, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Frightner keeps reverting the template (sigh). I desist. Left with opinion that Republic of Macedonia was created somewhere in 8th century BC, some weird remnant of the Greek city states (republics) :). Lantonov 12:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vardar Banovina has no relation with the Republic of Macedonia

I excluded the word Vardar Banovina from the box. It is a term used by Serbian occupation and it has an offensive connotation Revizionist 20:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Now this template seems agreeable to all sides. I think it is good to be protected. Lantonov 05:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The term Vardar Banovina is actually the title of one of the nine banovinas of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia which encompasses today's Republic of Macedonia, it's not just an occupations term. 124.168.101.42 11:23, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I do not understand - what was occupied! BEFORE VARDAR BANOVINA THERE WAS THE BULGARIAN ARMY AND 500 YEARS BEFORE THEM - THE TURKS!Jingby 11:44, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What are you on about? Provide some relevant information rather than talking gibberish. 203.59.65.185 11:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Vardar Banovina was a province (banovina) of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia between 1929 and 1941. It was located in the southernmost part of the country, encompassing the whole of today's Republic of Macedonia, southern parts of Central Serbia and southeastern parts of Kosovo. It is part from the history of Yugoslavia. Jingby 07:41, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please lock the template

I ask the administartors to lock the template, because there is an anonimous user coming and rweverting it from time to time. Revizionist 10:09, 05 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dude, history of the Republic of Macedonia. NOF took place in Greece. Unless you are mistaking the template for "History of the ethnic Macedonians", NOF should not be included. Or if it will make you happy, add NOF but leave Demographic history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.166.241.11 (talk) 12:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is the history of the ETHNIC MACEDONIANS, which includes the Republic of Macedonia, geographic Macedonia and the diaspora therefore NOF should be on the template Maktruth (talk) 19:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ancient Period

I have seen in several articles such as: England[[3]] Italy[[4]] Greece[[5]] Egypt[[6]] That they include their Ancient History in their history templates, even though their country did not exist at that time (Italy did not exist during Rome) (Modern Greece did not exist during the time of the Ancient city states). Therefore I only think it is fair to include Macedon in the template as it extended into the Republic threw Pelagonia. Philip also united Peonia into the empire when conquering them as he did in the south, this basically covered the whole modern Republic. Ireland101 (talk) 06:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So you consider that Macedon is part of (FY)RoM history? I suggest you to read this [7] Kapnisma ? 07:56, 24 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kapnisma please do not try to divert attention to unrelated information. The fact is that Pelagonia the northern part of Macedon is now in what you call "(FY)RoM". And Peonia which covers basically all of Macedonia was united by Philip. Face the facts and don't post political POV. Ireland101 (talk) 17:03, 24 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Political POV ? Find a reliable source that connects (FY)RoM with Macedon before editing. Also try to avoid pseudohistory Kapnisma ? 17:21, 24 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about you Kapnisma but when I studied the history these sorts of arguments did not appear. Macedon was a large territory, in modern terms a large part of it is in Greece, and another part of it is in RoM. Have you heard of Heraclea Lyncestis? do you know were it is? it is not in Greece. Have you heard of Pelagonia? Part of it is in RoM and a lesser part in Greece. This was the northern part of Macedon. Did you know that Peonia was united by Philip, this territory covers all of RoM? Kapnisma please do a little more research about Macedonia before posting these sorts of comments. Ireland101 (talk) 17:30, 24 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh! You mean that Pelagonia? Which is over Macedon [8]here and [9]here?

Open again your history books and read more carefully before making meaningless edits Kapnisma ? 17:43, 24 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your comment was entertaining but I don't have time to waste. Pelagonia was the Upper part of the Macedonian Kingdom, it is in the country Macedonia modern day homeland of the Macedonians, end of story. Ireland101 (talk) 21:07, 24 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is this template on the "Republic of Macedonia" or on "Macedonians" ???

The two are not the same. Macedonians come from the the whole Macedonian region, but this template is only on the RoM. Does that mean that MAcedonians only come from the RoM? NO! Part of our history is also on Macedon because many Macedonians come from northern Greece. So either fix the template or change it back to Republic of Macedonia template because its obviously about the country and not the actual people. 55lokheart (talk) 16:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it was originally on the Republic of Macedonia (hence the title) but then it was changed to Macedonians. The page wasn't moved though. Balkan Fever 07:35, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ON the article History of the Macedonian people, in the ancient period section, it only gives the history of the Republic of Macedonia. But ethnic Macedonians come from northern greece as well. So why isn't the history of Macedon mentioned as well? Why is it only on Paeonia? Is this a article on the history of RoM or Macedonians? If it was on the history of RoM, then its ok to only mention PAeonia. But if its on ethnic Macedonians, we must also mention Macedon as well. 55lokheart (talk) 03:39, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again, if I may use Serbia as an example. There are two templates; Template:History of Serbia (Focuses on Serbia as a political state) and Template:Serbs (Focuses on Serbs ethnically, culturally, religiously etc. within, and outside of, Serbia). Perhaps we could have two templates as well? One for a chronology of the Republic of Macedonia as a political state and one focusing on just ethnic Macedonians regardless of location. Köbra ⁸⁵ 03:50, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Which symbol?

Some people like the official coat of arms of the Republic of Macedonia (the sun and mountain and nature and whatnot) and some people like the unofficial coat of arms of the Macedonians (the lion). Which one should it be? Balkan Fever 23:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I like the coat of arms better, solely based on looks. I could settle for the lion if the quality was a tad better. I will try to upload a vector version of the unofficial coat of arms and we could use that if more people would like to use the lion over the official coat of arms. In the meantime I think the official coat of arms should stay. Köbra ⁸⁵ 03:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer the official coat of arms of the Republic of Macedonia too. I would also like to add that this is not final - for example I would also like the old 1992 flag with the vergina star on red background (which is confirmed by both Macedonian and international experts to be the most used symbol of the ethnic Macedonians). But for the time being let the official coat of arms stay. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 08:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've asked both 55lokheart and that IP user (both have been editing this template) to comment here. I also posted a note at WP:MKD for anyone else interested to join the discussion. Balkan Fever 09:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I made a suggestion earlier in one of the above posts; to have two templates because, really, statehood should be its own template. Unless some of our other Wikipedians object, I think this is a good way to go. Köbra ⁸⁵ 10:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't believe I missed that. I agree. That would make it a lot easier. Balkan Fever 10:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure how valid my opinion might be, but I find the current state better. The lion is (and was) one of the most exploited symbols, so the current one looks more unique so to speak. For the other suggestion, I don't know what would make it for the template, but few of the topics will be uncontroversial (you know what I mean:)--Laveol ^T 18:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well officially the Coat of Arms would be used, but most people identify with the staar of vergina or the lion so one of these two would be appropriate. But it would be near impossible to post the star of vergina up, so i suggest an intricate version of the lion would be appropriate (as opposed to the version on ethnic macedonians which is very simple). I think the lion is more readily identified with than the coat of arms.P m kocovski (talk) 11:34, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The coat of arms should be the yellow Lion with a red background, since that is the coat of arms that has historically represented Macedonia and represents the Macedonian ETHNICITY, while the official coat of arms simply represents the Republic of Macedonia and ALL its people. Maktruth (talk) 19:49, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Sun of the ancient Macedonians is a recent discovery and a recent use by both Macedonians and Greeks, but the yellow Lion with Red background has historically represented the people of Macedonia, but should not be confused with the red Lion with yellow background, which represents the people of Bulgaria. Maktruth (talk) 19:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Macedonians in Albania

Would someone be able to change the template so that the link for Macedonians in Albania no longer goes to the Albanian Section on the Macedonian Page. There is now a NEW page for that. Macedonians in Albania. If someone could get onto that it would be appreciated. :)P m kocovski (talk) 07:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Eve go naprav. Balkan Fever 07:59, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

blagodaram P m kocovski (talk) 05:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Macedonian Lanaguage

Is it possible to add a section for the Macedonian Language and its dialects eg. Strumica/Pirin?, Ohrid/Struga like is present in many other 'nation' templates.??? P m kocovski (talk) 06:22, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strumica what???--Laveol ^T 01:07, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

adding macedonians in bulgaria

could someone please change the template for macedonians in bulgaria to redirect here Macedonians in Bulgaria as opposed to the general macedonians page. thanx P m kocovski (talk) 01:21, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Already changed. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 11:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Coat of Arms for the template

The coat of arms should be the yellow Lion with a red background, since that is the coat of arms that has historically represented Macedonia and represents the Macedonian ETHNICITY, while the official coat of arms simply represents the Republic of Macedonia and ALL its people.Maktruth (talk) 19:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Sun of the ancient Macedonians is a recent discovery and a recent use by both Macedonians and Greeks, but the yellow Lion with Red background has historically represented the people of Macedonia, but should not be confused with the red Lion with yellow background, which represents the people of Bulgaria Maktruth (talk) 19:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The only reason the unofficial coat of arms is not used by the Republic of Macedonia is because Bulgarian pressure not too, but the ethnic Macedonians relate far more with the lion then the ROM coat of arms, and since this article is about ETHNIC MACEDONIANS and not ROM, the lion should be used. Maktruth (talk) 19:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please discuss the issue if you are going to change the coa. Maktruth (talk) 20:05, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, I imagine you wanted to say that Bulgarians pressure you not to use the lion? Could you tell me when and why - this sounds more than ridiculous. --Laveol ^T 20:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Me? no, they don't pressure ME, or any ethnic Macedonian not to use it. I said Bulgarian government pressured Macedonian government not to use it since it resembles the Bulgarian coat of arms, which historically was a red lion with a yellow background, but recently changed to a yellow lion with a red background. Also, the amount of tails differ (please view the Scottish coat of arms also). Maktruth (talk) 20:54, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What I meant was that nobody has pressured you (people from RoM) not to use the emblem --Laveol ^T 23:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you mean, or which emblem your talking about. If you mean the lion coat of arms, then you are right: political organizations in Macedonia use the lion and I don't know if you've noticed, but most ethnic Macedonians use it also. Maktruth (talk) 05:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

People, let's use the lion on this one, the state template uses the official coat of arms, hence the landscape and the socialist star. This is in no way a representation of ethnic Macedonians today (2008). Köbra ^Könverse 08:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, Ethnic Macedonians IDENTIFY with the yellow LION with red SHIELD and do not identify with the Socialist-official coat of arms, but non-ethnic Macedonians believe they can choose for us (something that is not new) Mactruth (talk) 22:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vote

Why don't you just vote it? I mean is it that hard. As I see there are three images that can be put there: the current flag of the Republic, the lion and the coat of arms. So why don't you just make a vote like this

coat of arms - that means that I vote for the coat of arms (and I do actually). Revizionist proposed this in an edit-summary so why not just do it. It doesn't seem that hard, does it? --Laveol ^T 22:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is you are not ethnic Macedonian therefore you have no say in what we want to represent us on Wikipedia, it is not like the ethnic Macedonians are casting a vote that Greek Macedonians cannot use the Macedonian Sun. Mactruth (talk) 23:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously, our friendly neighbors believe self-determination includes the influence and approval of neighbors. Look, I wish there could be a vote, but the vote should only be between ethnic Macedonians, and there's no way to regulate whether a person is ethnic Macedonian on Wikipedia (I have faced many Greek imposters on other websites). Mactruth (talk) 00:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, this is wikipedia. All peoples' perspectives count. Toddst1 (talk) 00:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Toddst1, I get that this is Wikipedia, the problem is the exception to whether or not all people's perspectives count applies only to Macedonians when it comes to Balkan issues. The problem is when a peoples self-determinate to a name, a symbol, or etc other people should not influence or force their decision upon them because that nullifies self-determination. Mactruth (talk) 00:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

??? Are you saying Wikipedia should follow your rules only? No, this is not how it goes: we're not trying to add something offensive to Ethnic Macedonians or some controversial information, we simply want to determine the symbol in a constructive way. We have this right, too, you know, especially since we're not doing anything wrong. I have an opinion on the issue and my opinion is valid since I have my valid arguments. If you don't like it, we miight skip the vote and let you battle on this till next year (or until you get blocked), ok? --Laveol ^T 00:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm... what are your valid arguments? The only arguments are coming from non-ethnic Macedonians Mactruth (talk) 02:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK everybody shut the hell up. Please. This is getting so stupid. I am creating two subsections: 1) the Nature etc (official) and 2) the lion (unofficial). I am not including the Vergina Sun, which some may argue also represents the Macedonians (ethnic), because it will actually cause more revert warring than we have now (hard to believe, I know). I ask that nobody touch the image any more (leave it with the lion), regardless of the previous "consensus", because obviously nobody here understands what this means, and it wasn't much of a consensus anyway. Place four tildes (i.e. sign your name) under the one you prefer. All discussion goes in the "discussion" subsection, not in the voting subsections. Note that voting alone may not dictate consensus, but there really is no other option right now. Balkan Fever 11:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lion

(Image:Mac coat arms unoff.gif)

It is ridiculous that non-ethnic Macedonians are nullifying the self-determination for ethnic Macedonians to choose their own symbol to represent themselves (and I will forever complain). I vote for the Lion or Macedonian Sun. Mactruth (talk) 21:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nature

(Image:Republic-of-Macedonia-coat-of-arms.svg)

Sorry I must be missing something. What "nature" do you mean, what exactly is this a proposal for? Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He means the current official coat of arms. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 19:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is the coat of arms from the Communist era: a sun, river, mountain and 5-pointed star. Mactruth (talk) 21:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

OK, when I created this template, i also had this dilemma. And I repat it now - ether we include the official coat of arms, either we include our version of the Vergina Sun (red backgroud). Because 100% of the Macedonians use the Vergina Sun with the red background. The Macedonians in Republic of Macedonia, the Macedonian minorities in the neighboring countries use it also, the emigration uses it. If you ask me, it will be most appropriate to use the old flag on the template, because according to all sources this is the most used symbol, and the symbol that 100% of the Macedonians affiliate to. The second option is to use the official coat of arms of the republic of Macedonia. I am against the use of the lion, for not all Macedonians identify with it. --Revizionist (talk) 12:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No Vergina Sun requests please - none of us have time to stop the tag-team reverting that will come from it. Balkan Fever 12:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I double BF, there's no way we can get a stable version with it. --Laveol ^T 13:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me, but the old flag is now the flag of Macedonians as an ethnic group, therefore... wtf? Köbra ^Könverse 14:02, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I agree with Kobra on this one. All sources say that it is the most used symbol by the Macedonians both in Republic of Macedonia and in the diaspora. --Revizionist (talk) 15:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer no symbol at all. Not just here, but in other articles/templates, for all sorts of flags. Flags are over-used in Wikipedia. What Wikipedia ought to be doing is simply treat flags as an object of encyclopedic discourse: Entity X uses flag Y. Neutral statement of fact. Instead, what we do all too often is to employ flags as a symbol ourselves. Using them, not talking about them. That's bad, because it may be understood as endorsement of some ideological position associated with the flag. With state flags this is not normally much of a problem, because using a state flag implies little more than that the state exists (but see cases like Kosovo or Northern Cyprus for problems that do occur). But with entities as fleeting as ethnic groups, using flags to symbolise them is really not necessary at all, and only carries extra POV baggage with it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Revizionist is right, all Macedonians (ethnic) use the Macedonian sun as their symbol. Macedonians in Serbia, Macedonians in Bulgaria, Macedonians in Albania and Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia. In all honesty, I thought it could only be a coat of arms, that's why I opted for the Lion coat of arms rather the Communist coat of arms. We should open an option for the ancient Macedonians sun though, though I feel it is a recent symbol (just like the Greek Macedonians). Mactruth (talk) 21:11, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is no way the Sun of Vergina will be part of this template. Forget it. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 18:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kekrops, whatever will be decided here (and as I said I'm myself far from convinced the Vergina sun is the best option), the offendedness by the Greeks will not play the slightest role in it. Forget those forgetits of yours. Try edit warring against its inclusion and I promise you will be topic-banned faster than you can say Makedonia xakousti. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Απαξιώ. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 07:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok,first of all,the national simbol of all Macedonians(ethnic) is sun of Kutleš(Vergina),and it is used in every single Macedonian(ethnic) organisation!!! This site is about Macedonians(ethnic),and not about republic of Macedonia!!!! And if you don't trust me see here: 1-Matica na iselenici(Hause of immigrants)/http://www.maticanaiselenici.com/en/?PHPSESSID=095fccd6bd2d0bd9cfe719ab8f6d2632 2-Makedonski svetski kongres(World Macedonian congress)/http://www.smk.org.mk/index.asp?vlang=eng The national simbol of all Macedonians(ethnic)is: Golden Kutlesh(Vergina) sun on red platform!!! That is the only simbol of all Macedonian nation!!!! I can give you all serius Macedonian oragnisations which works in the name of Macedonians(ethnic),or we shoud ask administartor of this site who is wrong!! I repet,we do not talk about Macedonian state,or something else!The word is about ethnic Macedonians,and their simbol is KUTLESH SUN on red bacground!!! If somebody blocks me i will contakt administrator!!!

Makedonij 21:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In case you haven't notice there is a vote organized to decide the issue. You're not the only editor on Wikipedia, you know. You've broken the 3RR rule on this article and might as well get a block. The answer is consensus, not persistent edit-wars. --Laveol ^T 21:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

National simbol

Ok,first of all,the national simbol of all Macedonians(ethnic) is sun of Kutleš(Vergina),and it is used in every single Macedonian(ethnic) organisation!!! This site is about Macedonians(ethnic),and not about republic of Macedonia!!!! And if you don't trust me see here: 1-Matica na iselenici(Hause of immigrants)/http://www.maticanaiselenici.com/en/?PHPSESSID=095fccd6bd2d0bd9cfe719ab8f6d2632 2-Makedonski svetski kongres(World Macedonian congress)/http://www.smk.org.mk/index.asp?vlang=eng The national simbol of all Macedonians(ethnic)is: Golden Kutlesh(Vergina) sun on red platform!!!

Makedonij 21:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't you read the whole discussion from above? --Laveol ^T 20:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Real vote

Ok, here are the options - whichever of them you happen to like best, just sign bellow it with a # in front of your signature. Everybody are allowed to vote. Wikipedia is not a democracy, but it still needs to build consensus. I have not added the old flag - there is a reason for it not being the current flag and I think it's best to avoid conflicts of such magnitude as the one that would happen (and is actually happening) if the Vergina Sun was to be added to the template. --Laveol ^T 23:32, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry Laveol, but I've added two other options, the Vergina one and "no flag at all". Those are two options that were seriously discussed here, and one of them obviously has a lot of backing among editors. You can't have a valid straw poll if you exclude legitimate options from the outset. I would also insist that all !votes be based on Wikipedia policy and precedent. "People are offended by X" is simply not a valid argument here, and all votes based on such reasoning alone should be discounted. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gee, like we don't know what option will be chosen now that the "KUTLESH FLAG NATIONAL SIMBOL OF MACEDONIANS" is up for grabs. ;) Of course a vote for "no flag" from any Greek editors for any reasons will be perceived as more evil Greek oppression. 3rdAlcove (talk) 06:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So? To paraphrase FP, we shouldn't give a fat rat's what others think. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 12:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By the way should the results of the canvassing by user Makedonij be taken into account? See his contribs [10] --Laveol ^T 19:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My bigger concern is how are we going to treat those !votes that are merely along predictable national(ist) frontlines? I'd dearly love to see some outside eyes on this. If I were the admin to close this, I'd probably disregard all Macedonian and Greek opinions automatically. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd honestly say that would be fair given the circumstances. I don't think my vote (as a Bulgarian) can be taken into real account as well given some other well known circumstances. --Laveol ^T 20:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And it is more than obvious there has also been off-wiki canvassing here. -- Avg 01:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is better than Eurovision. "Real vote", indeed. ;) So, I guess the lion is a Bulgarian symbol with its colours reversed? 3rdAlcove (talk) 09:10, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's really a matter of judgement. Will we let a people decide what symbol they want to represent themselves?, or are we going to let others decide? Its not that hard Vergina Sun+Red= Macedonians, Vergina Sun+Blue=Greek Macedonians, i dont see the controversy? People have the right to determine their own national symbols etc. P m kocovski (talk) 12:05, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're missing the fact that this is an encyclopedia and not some paper or prop tool. --Laveol ^T 12:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And anyway Vergina sun is a Greek symbol, which has been copyrighted. So this discussion is a joke. However it's still fun to see these guys rally for their "cause".-- Avg 13:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If my memory serves me correctly, the flag of Greek Macedonia came after the initial flag of the Republic of Macedonia. Köbra ^Könverse 13:20, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your memory serves you wrong by 15 years. Sorry.-- Avg 13:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In response to Future's comment under "No flag"... see: Roma flag. Köbra ^Könverse 13:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You have a country don't you? Roma people don't.-- Avg 13:27, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Who said anything about that? Having a country doesn't mean you can't have an ethnic flag. Have you seen the ethnic flag of Serbs (Template:Serbs)? Tell me, is it the same as the state flag (Flag of Serbia)? Also, tell me that your previous answer was not a serious one. Even the external link provided on Flag of Greek Macedonia states the flag of Greek Macedonia was created to "annoy Macedonians" by inverting the colours. Köbra ^Könverse 13:31, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well thanks for pointing out. If there's such a link I'll go and remove it now. This is beyond ridiculous. Since 1977 when Andronikos made his discovery, the Vergina Star on a blue background has been used as the symbol of Macedonians.-- Avg 13:36, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ofcourse you'll remove it. Such evidence must not exist. Köbra ^Könverse 13:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just went to the page and there is no such reference or link. Care to enlighten us?-- Avg 13:42, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Flags of the World external link, it actually quotes what some guy said back in '96. Köbra ^Könverse 14:00, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You mean at the part where it quotes the Slavomacedonian POV? :-)-- Avg

If I were you, I wouldn't say that word again... Just try it... Köbra ^Könverse 05:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Because what? It...offends you? Listen, I use this word as a compromise, because what I really use outside Wikipedia is Skopjan. Since you seem to not like Slavomacedonian, Skopjan it will be, thanks for the suggestion.-- Avg 10:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Christian Turk it is. Köbra ^Könverse 11:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You know I've never quite been able to understand that particular insult. It's as if you guys weren't "Christian Turks" for, like, the longest, at least in the Balkans? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 14:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But we use it as an ethnic insult, not a national one. I could always use "Gayreek", perhaps this one is less confusing. Köbra ^Könverse 15:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And I'm curious as to why, given that you were still under the Turks (excuse the "Gayreek" pun) about a century after the Greek War of Independence. If we are Christian Turks, what does that make you? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 15:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Woa, do you actually equate "Skopjan", which is a legitimate reference to your folk by Greeks with an obvious insult like "Gayreek"? How have you even considered mentioning such a word? This could easily go to WP:NPA you know.-- Avg 16:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There you go, I find Slavomacedonian offensive - very offensive, especially considering how you do not capitalise the "m", as if it had no legitimate meaning. Take it to the almighty "WP:NPA", but if you call my people "Slavomacedonians" don't think I won't $#%& you up. Wikipedia is not God, don't think I'll have a cry if I get banned. Köbra ^Könverse 08:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(un)Actually, P m kocovski, I didn't say anything to the contrary; simply that we already know the result of the 'poll'. What about the lion coat of arms, anyway? Did you guys rip it off and reverse its colours or what? 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I dont understand what you are trying to say?- 3rd Alcove. Also I wouldnt object to the (Vergina Star + Blue) bieng used for the greek macedonians, wikipedia has to be nuetral but when only one group objects it is questionable for their objection to granted.P m kocovski (talk) 05:04, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously you don't understand since you wouldn't repeat yourself if you actually did. 3rdAlcove (talk) 13:05, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I must be really stupid because i still cant understand what you are saying. And what is your objection to the lion??P m kocovski (talk) 22:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The lion

File:Mac coat arms unoff.gif

This is in a tie with the Macedonian sun, either will do. Mactruth (talk) 20:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Second Choice, the lion is another symbol of the Macedonian people.P m kocovski (talk) 07:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My second choice --Makedonij 09:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The current and official coat of arms

File:Republic-of-Macedonia-coat-of-arms.svg

My second choice id the coat of arms of the Republic of Macedonia. --Revizionist (talk) 10:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My second choice --MacedonianBoy (talk) 09:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The current flag

Second choice. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand what's wrong with using the national flag, as per the other ethnic group templates. It's not as if they are a people without a state, like, say, the Kurds, where a legitimate debate might be had. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 12:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Second choice (if you have to have a symbol). -- Avg 17:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If there's to be a symbol, then that symbol has to be the one the whole ethnic group has chosen through its democratically elected leadership (a choice made weighing all the pros and cons, including ...extortion by the evil Greeks, and a choice that represents all members -not just the rampant nationalist ones-). My second choice, close call. Niko Silver 12:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vergina flag

File:Flag of Macedonia 1991-95.svg

My choise. The flag of Macedonians is Kutleš star. State flag is the current flag of the country. Kutleš is flag of macedonians, and the others non macedonian in Macedonia have also flags. Turks have, serbs, etc. And the flags are not same with the national flags.--Raso mk (talk) 07:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I vote for Sun of Kutlesh,and i allready told that this is a simbol of all ethnic Macedonians,and if you want to show the world oposit you will allways find someone who will tempelate sun again and again!!! Makedonij 10:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My first choice is old flag with the star on red background which is confirmed by foreign sources as the most used symbol of identification among the ethnic Macedonian population both in Republic of Macedonia, the minorities in the neighboring countries and the diaspora. --Revizionist (talk) 10:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I vote for this flag for the same reasons stated above. Köbra ^Könverse 13:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One big vote for the Star of Kutleš. This is our only symbol, we do not have another. Regards --MacedonianBoy (talk) 18:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I vote for this flag for the same reasons as everyone else. --Justmakingonearcticle 19:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Someone deleted my past post. Anyway, this is retarded that a poll is being considered especially since some Greek uses may have more then one screenname. Anyways, I vote for this flag also. Mactruth (talk) 20:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Number one choice, because it is the rallying symbol for all ethnic macedonians, many people do not recognise the current flag, and even in macedonia it is not always used.Most emigrant communities dont use the current flag at all.P m kocovski (talk) 07:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No flag/CoA at all

My first choice. States have flags. Ethnic groups don't. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, since I don't think the Vergina Sun is a sensible option, I'd prefer there to be no symbol. (No symbol - no controversy). --Laveol ^T 07:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But if people feel that the national flag is unrepresentative for whatever reason, having no flag or symbol at all is the only obvious (uncontroversial) solution. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 12:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First choice as per Fut.Perf. -- Avg 17:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Same as above. --Tsourkpk (talk) 23:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Ethnic group" ≠ "State", therefore no flag at all seems most reasonable. First Choice. Niko Silver 12:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 283: / Line 283: @@
 :::::::::::::::::::::::::And I'm curious as to ''why'', given that you were still under the Turks (excuse the "Gayreek" pun) about a century after the [[Greek War of Independence]]. If we are Christian Turks, what does that make you? [[User:Kékrōps|·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ·]] ([[User talk:Kékrōps|talk]]) 15:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 :::::::::::::::::::::::::Woa, do you actually equate "Skopjan", which is a legitimate reference to your folk by Greeks with an obvious insult like "Gayreek"? How have you even considered mentioning such a word? This could easily go to [[WP:NPA]] you know.--[[User_talk:Avg|<span style="color:#9090f0;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Avg</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]] 16:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
+::::::::::::::::::::::::::There you go, I find Slavomacedonian offensive - very offensive, especially considering how you do not capitalise the "m", as if it had no legitimate meaning. Take it to the almighty "WP:NPA", but if you call my people "Slavomacedonians" don't think I won't $#%& you up. Wikipedia is not [[God]], don't think I'll have a cry if I get banned. [[User:Kobra85|Köbra]] <sup>[[User talk:Kobra85|Könverse]]</sup> 08:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 (un)Actually, P m kocovski, I didn't say anything to the contrary; simply that we already know the result of the 'poll'. What about the lion coat of arms, anyway? Did you guys rip it off and reverse its colours or what? [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 14:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)