User talk:Thatcher

ScienceGolfFanatic still editing?

On my watchlist I still have Phil Mickelson and I believe that ScienceGolfFanatic is back with more obvious sockpuppets matching the P_____number pattern: Pctzgan37 and Pabriella36. I think that from their edit history it is quite obvious that they are the same person that was recently blocked, but I am afraid to start an SPI because I worry that to a user who hasnt seen this case it may look like a random vandal and the case would be denied. Please help if you can, or if not, tell me what I should do. Soap ^Talk/_{Contributions} 21:11, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, found and blocked a few more. Thatcher 23:57, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Digwuren notice

Hi, Thatcher. Could you give the same warning to User:Vecrumba? I'm not sure if he's already been warned, but I outlined my concerns as far as civility just hours ago at his talk page and let him know about WP:DIGWUREN. (However, I am no administrator.) Thanks. PasswordUsername (talk) 21:28, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Never mind, he is already on notice. Thanks. PasswordUsername (talk) 21:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Warning me of behavior (invoking DIGWUREN twice) is not reaching out. Given PasswordUsername's posting was my first (I believe) discourse with PasswordUsername who had refused prior invitations to discuss disputed article content, as here, mine was an objective response. Please see thread on my talk (note time stamp of last contact from PasswordUsername after posting punishment request here, no mention thereof) and associated thread on Great Soviet Encyclopedia. I have asked PasswordUsername to not talk about me behind my back, most recently here which was in response to this. I consider lobbying admins behind my back to punish me a violation of that request. When I mention an editor in discussion, especially with regard to WP contentiousness, I let them know, as here, which I expect as common courtesy. I did not view PasswordUsername's contact as reaching out or conciliatory, rather, it took it as an attempt at intimidation, which (my perspective) was confirmed by PasswordUsername's iteration of the DIGWUREN sanctions, and (my perspective) reconfirmed by his advocacy for punishment here because, apparently, the more the merrier. Lastly, this is a response and not a "counter-request" for punishment. I have no issue working with PasswordUsername should they observe a collegial atmosphere. Vecrumba       TALK 22:23, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Vecrumba, that you construe a request to ask an administrator to let you know about WP:DIGWUREN an attempt at lobbying administrators to "punish you" really says it all. I don't think I've insulted you here, ever. Lastly, I asked Pjoef if your editing the same material as him after you found his comments at a different article could be construed as stalking (as he's been here a lot longer than I have, and would probably understand the situation better). Need I say that this was after you insulted Pjoef as a "Soviet apologist" here? I'd really better say that I've never accused you of stalking at Hiberniantears' page or anywhere else; the most I'd said was that the fact that you, Biophys, Digwuren, and Martintg seem to continuously edit with one another should be examined as a possible violation of WP:TEAM. (Viriditas, who is uninvolved with your work outside of Human rights in the United States, expressed just the same concerns about bloc editing.) The fact that you and other users repeatedly came to edit the same pages that I did was disconcerting. None of that is "lobbying." Let me simply say that civility and a bit of good faith would be a good thing at this point. If you're not trying to blockshop out of a personal vendetta or deliberately trying to keep battling me, I fail to see what your response to my stricken-out comments here accomplishes. PasswordUsername (talk) 23:40, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

• I don't think dialog is having the effect on me that you hope it will have. Thatcher 00:09, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Hopefully not. I struck out my initial comment a day ago and would rather end the charade still continued in spite of that. If my behavior is a concern for anybody, I am always available to discuss at my user talk space. PasswordUsername (talk) 00:15, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Eastern Europe

Are you aware that another admin was conducting a thorough investigation[1] of the issue? Offliner (talk) 21:42, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

• Sure, see my comments on the case and on Shell's talk page. No one ever needs to revert in order to edit cooperatively; I consider it the mildest sanction that could be imposed. Thatcher 21:56, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Question

Hi, Thatcher–1RR is probably a good thing for a lot of users, though I do have a procedural question. Why wasn't Martintg placed on a 1RR editing restriction? He wasn't involved as a filing party at WP:AE (though he participated in the discussions, giving evidence of others' conduct, as I did), but neither was I a filer of any enforcement requests there. Many of the edit warring conflicts there have involved him, and he appears to have a pretty strong record of taking sides with Digwuren. Thanks, PasswordUsername (talk) 22:01, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I wonder how Russavia (talk · contribs) managed to avoid being placed on 1RR and official notice. Please explain. Colchicum (talk) 22:05, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Martintg also has a block log for edit warring on an Eastern European article (Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee)): [2]. He was only unblocked because he promised to stop edit warring. Offliner (talk) 22:14, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

• As I said, it was preliminary, and it was based on the diffs and arguments presented in that report. There is a second report still open. I may also review the Digwuren report again. As I said on AE, the perfect has become the enemy of the good. AE has always been about rough justice, not perfection. If someone who "deserves" a sanction gets missed, I'm sure there will be another report about them sooner or later. Thatcher 22:21, 22 June 2009 (UTC)}}
  • Agreed with respect to Martintg. Thatcher 10:51, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
    • I was a bit surprised to see my "Notice of Editing Restriction" followed by a 1RR parole, particularly given your initial assessment. Had I have know that the dialogue above was going on here I would have said some words in my defence. The circumstances surround my previous block was as follows: Normally I am careful, but in the case of Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee I had exceeded 4 reverts. I was informed on my talk page that this had occured and immediately undid my last revert. It was subsequently reported to AN3 by Offliner. The report remained open until for almost 24 hours (during which time I made no further edits) before William Connelly initially rejected the report, but after further representations by Offliner (much like he is doing here), William blocked me. I had contacted William and he wasn't aware that I had undid my last edit, which was my fault as I didn't indicate this in the edit comment. For this reason and my undertaking William unblocked me, (I can supply diffs to support all this). William does have a bit of a record for messing up blocks. So I have been careful to restrict my reverts to 2 per day since, but evidently this wasn't acceptable either, which I accept. Certainty PassowordUsername a longer block log than I, so I don't think it is eqitable that I should have the same sanction as he. Certainly your original formal "Notice of editing restrictions" was sufficient. --Martintg (talk) 11:35, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
      • You've been edit warring for longer than I've been here. If block log length were the issue, Digwuren would be banned indefinitely at this point. (See his history.) Incidentally, I have one more block than you, so I wouldn't use myself as a comparison. I was about to file an AE request, but I figured that the admins were going to get around to looking at you as soon as a full review of the case came up with regard to everyone involved in the recent reverting. PasswordUsername (talk) 12:49, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
      • I'm looking at User:Shell Kinney/EEreportsreview which indicates recent edit warring on Russian diaspora and Timeline of antisemitism. Unfortunately, arbitration enforcement is not a scalpel, it is rarely possible to craft remedies with surgical precision that take into account finely discriminated differences in behavior. 1RR is, to my way of thinking, the mildest sanction I can impose, since no editor should need to revert in order to edit cooperatively (as opposed to article or topic bans). Editors who can't live within 1RR, or who game the system by making edits which have the effect of reverting while not being technical reversions, or who return to their battleground articles to make the same revert every 7 days, will find themselves subject to further sanction. Editors who can edit cooperatively will not be troubled at all and will find the limit lifted without too much trouble. I'm willing to consider lifting the limit earlier than 6 months if that is warranted based on behavior going forward. Thatcher 11:49, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
        • Okay, fair enough. Could you place a similar 1RR parole on Russavia, in the interests of equity. He regularly edit wars like Offliner according to Shell and has quite a long history of 3RR blocks too. In the articles examined by Shell, Russavia edit warred in 11 out of 18, while I edit warred in just 7 out of 18. --Martintg (talk) 11:57, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

There are two more editors mentioned in User:Shell_Kinney/EEreportsreview#Individual editor's contribs, one of them is found to edit war regularly, like Offliner and Biophys, and more than others, what about them? Colchicum (talk) 11:38, 23 June 2009 (UTC) Their last contentious revert is very recent: [3]. Colchicum (talk) 11:42, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

• According to that analysis, Russavia has not been involved in edit warring for a while, except for 3 edits to Kaitsepolitsei on June 6-7, and Ellol just got back from a break. It is certainly reasonable to put them on formal notice, I'd like to see evidence of more current edit warring before imposing 1RR. Thatcher 14:09, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

• • Comment, according to that same analysis, most of Russavia's edit warring occurred during the March April May, same as me. I had one episode in June regarding Timeline of antisemitism, Russavia had the one episode in June you mentioned with Kaitsepolitsei, but also Nashi (youth movement) [4],[5],[6]. A 1RR parole is meant to be a preventative measure, given Russavia's record, there is just the same likelihood (if not more given his block log) of Russavia edit warring in the future as me. --Martintg (talk) 21:34, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

You raised an issue of inappropriate summary of edit in this diff. However, there (One intermediate revision not shown), so probably Biophys' edit summaries are better than you think. (Igny (talk) 17:49, 23 June 2009 (UTC))

• Thank you, Igny! Although I am retired and would not comment any more, I can not bear that kind of evidence, especially in view of my still active AE case and possible sanctions. Shell said in her summary about me:

• He sometimes uses misleading edit summaries during content disputes [7] or allows his POV to get the best of him [8]. He's also shown some bad judgment for example when removing warnings from other editors talk pages[9]."

• [3] - this is wrong diff (one intermediate version not shown). I said "wikilink" about indeed inserting a wikilink [10].

• [4] - I said her that I fixed edits by a sock of banned User:Jacob_Peters, but she still did not adjust this her statement

• [5] - I removed a misleading 3RR warning, because I saw previously an administrator doing the same at my talk page. The misleading 3RR warning was placed by a perpetrator, User:Viriditas, who currently serves 48 hours for 3RR violation about which he warned another user.Biophys (talk) 18:58, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

• At least regarding the diff, you are right and Shell was wrong, I did not notice when I copied it from her analysis. Thatcher 19:10, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

• • Not quite, Biophys: in [4], I (not blocked user User:Jacob Peters) insisted on keeping well-sourced material by historian Arno Mayer and you kept deleting it repeatedly as it did not show Kolchak very positively. You also deleted and altered content from Offliner's version in Political groups during Vladimir Putin's presidency ([11]), although in your edit summary you merely said that you combined two competing versions of the page. How's retirement? PasswordUsername (talk) 23:04, 23 June 2009 (UTC) (I won't say anything about removing a passage critical of political opposition leader Garry Kasparov with the edit summary "undue weight for a world chess champion" - that's pretty telling itself.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by PasswordUsername (talk • contribs)

Another question

Could you please explain to me how a newbie like PasswordUsername, having received two blocks after just two months of joining in April 2009, including a 72 hour block for inserting this, managed to pursuade you to apply a 1RR restriction upon me, yet you seem to be unwilling to apply a similar restriction on Russavia when requested by an editor such as myself having received my first block after two years of joining. I wasn't listed in the original AE reports and I only made a few comments in them and was sucked into this via Shell's investigation, just like Russavia. Unlike me, Russavia has been blocked for two weeks for harrassing Biophys and has two blocks for 3RR. Look at the following table derived from Shell's analysis:

Russavia	Martintg
January 11 - January 13 Web brigades	January 11 - January 13 Web brigades
February 11 - March 30 Alexander Litvinenko	February 11 - March 30 Alexander Litvinenko
March 21 - April 3 Soviet War Memorial (Treptower Park)	March 21 - April 3 Soviet War Memorial (Treptower Park)
March 23 International recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia	March 23 International recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia
March 28 - March 29 Internet operations by Russian secret police
March 28 Web brigades	March 28 Web brigades
April 2 - April 15 Kaitsepolitsei	April 2 - April 15 Kaitsepolitsei
April 19 Russian apartment bombings
April 19 - April 23 Evidence of FSB involvement in the Russian apartment bombings
April 29 Alexander Litvinenko	April 29 Alexander Litvinenko
May 3 - May 10 Russian influence operations in Estonia
May 10 Yakov Krotov
June 6 Kaitsepolitsei	June 3 - June 16 Russian diaspora
June 14 - June 21 Nashi (youth movement)[12],[13],[14]	June 3 - June 9 Timeline of antisemitism

--Martintg (talk) 00:45, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• Seems like you promised William M. Connolley to stop edit warring to get your unblock and then continued edit warring not long after that. You have a pretty good number of reverts at a decent number of articles in just the past month, Martintg. PasswordUsername (talk) 00:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• My promise was to be more careful and not to re-do the same edit again[15]. I reverted Alexander Litvinenko twice on April 29, Russian diaspora once on the 7th and twice on the 16th of June and similarly low level with Timeline of antisemitism. Note the gap in May, unlike Russavia who edit warred two articles during that month. --Martintg (talk) 01:04, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• Well, I started with the AE report and acted on what struck me the most. Then someone told me about Shell's page so I read it and took additional action. That page did not mention the Nashi article. Thatcher 02:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I understand this. A 1RR parole for those that already have one is probably the best approach to cool things down, and I'm willing to accept mine for the good of the project, just that knowing Russavia as I do, I wouldn't like him to be tempted into exploiting his position to get the upper hand in future content disputes (and there will be), and the hassle of having to report him in the future. It's all about preventative measures, not punitive measures, right? --Martintg (talk) 03:08, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• I see your latest action, thankyou. Some sanity should hopefully be restored now. and this whole sorry saga that has consumed the time of a great many people can be finally closed. Cheers. --Martintg (talk) 04:17, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Request for clarification

Thatcher, would you mind commenting here on a CU issue, if you have time? Casliber mentioned your views would be helpful, and I agree. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 01:06, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Done. Thatcher 02:43, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Opinion

Hello Thatcher, I would like to comment on your recent decision on Eastern Europe arbitration case if I could. I was following the case because some of the people I have interacted with before were sanctioned there. I think that some users were punished a little too harsh. This is just my opinion of course and I am not that experienced but this is what I think. I have to say that you guys (administrators) are doing difficult work trying to resolve problems. I also think I don’t even want to become one since to be fair here is not that easy and tasks are too stressful. You did an excellent job analyzing the case but in your final decision, I think you made a mistake. Some people who in my opinion deserved the sanctions more were punished the same or very similar way as the people who were not as much in fault. Some punished people were not even mentioned in Shelly's report at all. I think that was very unfair to them. But again, this is just my opinion which I would like to share with you. Thanks--Jacurek (talk) 07:31, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• I appreciate your comments. 1RR limit is not intended to be punishment, although some people may see it that way. No editor should ever need to revert if they are editing cooperatively with others. 1RR prevents future disruption by forcing the parties to discuss their concerns and make a consensus decision rather than "winning" their version of an article by pure force of numbers or attrition. It's true that Shell's analysis did not mention certain editors whom I covered with 1RR, I don't think it's possible to conclude that editors not mentioned on Shell's analysis have not misbehaved; the analysis may be incomplete, as indeed it did not include the recent edit warring at Nashi (youth movement). That incident is striking, because there were something like 28 reversions of the category over 10 days, with no discussion on the article talk page. Some editors reverted 5 times, others only 2, but everyone who reverted had the opportunity to look at the history, and the talk page, and rather than trying to hold a discussion, or requesting outside assistance (like a content RFC, third opinion, or page protection), they each decided to just jump in and revert to whichever "side" they were on. I take this as an indication of long term behavior problems involving these editors, and so the 1RR limit is imposed on all of them. Assuming some of those editors have never edit warred before, never gotten into a battle of sterile reversions without discussion, and this was just a momentary lapse in judgement, then I am willing to consider an appeal and lift the 1RR early. I will, of course, examine their entire recent edit history. Thatcher 13:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the answer, I appreciate it very much.:) I was wondering, if the "less guilty" people appealed maybe they could be restricted for less time or maybe they could just promise to stay away from the certain articles for a while and pay special attention to edit wars? I'm talking especially about those who have good and clean block history and just happened to be editing inappropriately disputed article last month. I'm sure that they will respect that and they will avoid similar situations in the future. But anyway.. thank you very much again for answering and for all this hard administrative work you are doing.--Jacurek (talk) 23:58, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I would listen to any reasonable requests. Thatcher 02:13, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi. I apologize to intrude. I was on a wikibreak and now i'm trying to catch up, something that might take weeks. I noticed the 1RR on the Eastern Europe arbitration case record of bans. I read part of Shell's notes and checked part of the history of several articles. Basically I have similar concerns as Jacurek. So, if you could allow, I'd like to follow this discussion if it continues. One thing I don't understand is where 1RR applies for these people, in which articles? Broadly defined? Narrowly defined? I believe that people who have not had a history of mischief should not be placed on 1RR, at least not in the broad sense. Otherwise, where is the difference between editors which make constant problems and editors that where caught in editing the wrong article at the wrong time? Also, perhaps it would be wise to set up a dynamic list of articles with recent problems, so in time we could try to address the problems also content-wise. I believe that many articles suffer from the lack of editors because of problems in a reduced number of articles. Thank you very much for listening to me. Dc76\^talk 18:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

The scope is "Articles related to Eastern Europe, broadly defined" as described at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary_sanctions. I agree that "people who have not had a history of mischief should not be placed on 1RR" but I don't believe I have done so. Do you have a specific user in mind? Thatcher 19:05, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I hope nobody will mind much if I reply to this, as I was about to ask this in a new thread - and here I stumble upon the perfect place to do so :) First, for the record, I do think that Thatcher has acted very wisely, and his actions and given out restrictions will bring much desired peace and quiet to the BalticEE topics (thanks T!). But in Poland we have a proverb "where axes are at work, splinters fly" and I think that there is a case for a "flying splinter fatality" here. I am surprised about one restriction, that to user Radeksz. I was actually reviewing his edits independently over the past few days, assessing whether he has a potential to become an admin, and I was about to conclude that yes, I cannot find any significant problems. He reverts occasionally, as do most content creators, but he seems to follow WP:BRT pretty well; he uses edit summaries commonly, he uses talk, and keeps far from the 3RR territory. Further, I don't think any editor has ever complained about Radek being disruptive or edit warring, minus one stale incident seen in his block log (nobody's perfect...). He was not a party to any former ArbCom or AE requests, as far as I know, not even discussed on AN(I) - despite being a highly active user with years of wiki experience. And here, suddenly, an esteemed editor like you puts him on a major restriction (or what at least in my experience is seen as such), which caused me to think about my review and conclusions again. Do you think that Radek is an edit warrior or an otherwise disruptive editor who needs a blemish of a half-a-year-1RR restriction in his wiki history? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:12, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

From what I've seen, Radeksz edit wars a lot, and his behaviour at Nashi (youth movement) is not an isolated incident. One only has to look at his involvement in Johan Bäckman or Historical Truth Commission, which includes lot of reverting and little discussion. I think 1RR is justified for him. Offliner (talk) 23:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

The fact that a user occasionally disagrees with you and has reverted you several times over the course of a month on a given article, with edit summaries and discussion page comments, is not edit warring. PS. I find it somewhat amusing that a 1RR restriction was imposed on a user who hardly ever reverts more than once a week on a given article :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:00, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Radek emailed me and I gave him an answer privately, since it has become a matter of public comment, I will reproduce my answer here.

“ Basically, I'm using the Nashi article as a canary in a coal mine. I believe that editors who participated in the edit war there are likely to have misbehaved on other articles within the area of dispute.

Between June 11 and June 21 (mostly on the 11th and 13th) the addition/removal of the anti-fascist category was reverted 25 times according to my count, with no one attempting to discuss the issue on the article talk page. (You were the 3rd, 11th, and 22nd reverts.) 25 reversions without discussion is edit warring, no matter whether any of the individual editors exceeds 3RR. In addition to the specific article, it is a symptom of a wider problem. Some editors treat the Eastern Europe/Russian/Baltic/Etc articles as an "us against them" battle. There is a profound unwillingness to compromise and a profound disrespect for cooperative editing and consensus.

You've been a wikipedian for 4+ years, I hope you can see the basic problem here.

So the question is what to do about it, and whether or not to include you. I consider 1RR to be the mildest sanction I could impose, as it allows you full freedom to edit any article, it only prevents you from "winning" by having the most reverts. Article bans, topic bans, and blocks are all more restrictive, as far as I am concerned. In this case I treated the Nashi article as an indicator of likely problems. All the editors involved should have known better, but chose to revert rather than taking a more appropriate course of actions, such as requesting a content RFC, third opinion, or even page protection while discussion occurred. So I considered all the editors suitable for the 1RR restriction.

Looking specifically at your interactions with other editors on this topic area, I see that you were warned about reverting in Feb 2009, and twice in May.

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive40
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive41
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FEdit_warring&diff=268517532&oldid=268477758

And Shell finds edit warring on Russian diaspora and Kaitsepolitsei in June. While you only had one edit on Russian diaspora, it was in the context of taking sides between Digwuren and PasswordUsername, again without discussion. On Kaitsepolitsei you reverted twice as part of a larger battle, in this case there was a discussion (that has not resolved the issue) but you did not participate in that discussion.

Under the circumstances and considering you've been noted as part of the wider problem on 4 articles in the last month or so, I think 1RR is appropriate. It's true that others have behaved worse. If I was applying topic bans or blocks, there would be some basis for making some blocks and bans longer than others. But since the goal of 1RR is to force editors to discuss their disagreements, I'm not sure there is a good argument for requiring some editors to discuss their concerns only for the next 2 or 3 months, while other editors must discuss for the next 6 months.

Anyone who can't edit under the 1RR restriction and continues to edit without cooperation and discussion will be subject to further sanction, of course.

”

-- Thatcher 00:10, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Thatcher. Radeksz's revert ratio as far as a number of Russia-related articles has been disproprtionate to his usage of the talk page. A very good example is the revert editing on the Mark Sirők page, where Radek also has a large volume of undiscussed reverts to previous versions. As I point out right here [16], Radeksz even reverted an edit where I'd given him new references–and did so with a blind edit summary of "please provide sources." If instead of doing that he'd participated in the discussion instead of undoing my edits, he would have found them. PasswordUsername (talk) 00:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

What you'd given me was a self published, self referential, advocacy source whereas what I requested was a RELIABLE source. This was previously pointed out to you - that the source you were including was not reliable, yet you still continued to try and cram an unreliable source in there. Yes, I reverted you. As would any reliable editor when somebody tries to back up highly controversial text with a non reliable sketchy source. This is not edit warring. This is ensuring that the encyclopedia adheres to its proclaimed standards. Please refer to this quote from Jimmy Wales on AGK's talk page: [17] which I find quite instructive in this context.radek (talk) 00:36, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

No, what you deleted with the edit summary "again, please provide sources" [18] was material from the Regnum information agency and the International Federation for Human Rights (see diff). These are not sketchy sources - either self-published or self-referential. Regnum is a news bureau and not an advocacy group, and the International Federation for Human Rights is about as "advocacy" a group as Amnesty International. All this is very clear from the diff. And noting what you are reverting will be certainly more important with a 1RR-a-week restriction. PasswordUsername (talk) 00:53, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

• I've asked PasswordUsername to contain content dispute to article talk. The International Federation for Human Rights' (FIDH) Latvian member is Ždanoka's political party, so let's not belittle other editors on admin talk as if something were self-evident, in this case, that the FIDH cannot be regarded as an "advocacy" group. Thank you. PētersV       TALK 22:05, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Please let me explain why all these people reverted each other without talking. I too made a revert in this article [19] with an edit summary that I thought was understandable for all EE editors. Word "Nashi" gave rise to Nashism, a term that has been invented to sound like "fascism" (that was widely discussed in Russian media). Categorizing such organization as "anti-fascist" sounds like a humiliation, even if such view was claimed by certain source(s), like the unofficial propaganda agency of the Kremlin (Regnum). Each editor on every side knew this even better than me. Why explain something that everyone knows? How about inserting "antifascist organization" about Gestapo? Would editors who reverted such category at spot be regarded as edit warriors? This case is indeed a litmus test of who is doing what here.Biophys (talk) 03:50, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

• I'm not going to get involved in a content dispute. If the situation is as obvious as you claim it is, then some outside uninvolved editors, recruited via RFC or third opinion, would have confirmed that. Yet in 25 reverts by 9 editors, no one bothered to ask for an outside opinion. Each one of you was convinced he was right, so no discussion or outside opinions were needed. That's fine for your blog or twitter, but not on Wikipedia. Thatcher 04:13, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

The idea that there is a clear distinction between "content disputes" and editors' revert behavior is silly. Is the removal of this piece of text, inserted by PasswordUsername, a "content dispute": [20], and hence an instance of "edit warring"? Uninvolved editors DID comment, via AdjustShift's accurate description in PU's block: blocked PasswordUsername with an expiry time of 72 hours ‎ (Disruptive editing: the user has repeatedly inserted nonsense in the Estonia-related articles.) (my emphasis). Now, granted that most of PU's edits aren't that blatant. But that particular edit is a good characterization of the pattern. But supposedly these are all just content disputes, and reverting such "nonsense" (AS's words, not mine) apparently requires that each time an epic treatise be written on the talk page to justify its removal or otherwise it's "edit warring" (irrespective of the number of reverts actually made). And BTW, in the past I've made several requests for third opinion or comment. I can't recall a time that someone actually complied. Most editors avoid getting embroiled in the controversy and usually RfC or 3O just falls on deaf ears. Until that situation - no response on 3O's and RfCs - changes, it's not surprising that many editors have ceased to bother with it.radek (talk) 23:14, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

• I won't file an appeal, because I have long been semi-retired and it doesn't matter anyway. However, your decisions went against this discussion, and in particular I would like to make you think of the following issue. Once the regulars are restricted, who is going to tackle tendentious editing by opinionated newcomers, who will undoubtedly appear in this sector and who will be able to revert 21 times more often without getting themselves into too much trouble? It would be unwise to expect that they behave more cooperatively than the regulars. Is it now your personal responsibility? It is not mine, at least. Good luck in persuading them to edit cooperatively. Colchicum (talk) 20:09, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Agree with regard to Radekcz [21].Biophys (talk) 20:08, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

IPBE candidate needs review from you...

See User talk:Darwinreynolds. Per your instructions, IPBE was only to be granted for users at the hard-blocked IP address if they were created before June 18; this account was created June 21 but has no vandalisms since being created. Could you review and grant the IPBE yourself if they need it? Thanks! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 02:42, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

• Replied. Complex situation. Thatcher 03:04, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Thanks for helping with that. I blocked the User:Fuelthefilm account, as its name violated {{spamusernameblock}}, and since there is already an account which a) is compliant with WP:UN, b) has IPBE c) is active, and d) is obviously the same person, I saw no reason to leave the prior account open to edit, given the violation of WP:UN. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:15, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

FYI

I could not retire, although that was my intention. Editing here became an addiction. Yes, I am well aware of editing restrictions. And, yes, I remember and appreciate your advice.Biophys (talk) 00:38, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, best wishes. Thatcher 00:39, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Question concerning arbitration

Hi - I see you are active on the arbitration enforcement page today. I posted a question to the associated talk page[22] and am wondering if you could offer me some quick advice on how I should proceed. If you think my concern is misplaced or that I'm going about it the wrong way, could you kindly advise me of that here? I would prefer to keep this very simple and avoid any conflict or extended discussion on the subject, given the "no interaction" editing restriction and the editing history that lead to it. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 14:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

So basically, you are enjoined from talking to each other, so he his badmouthing you to third parties. I would say this is a breach of the arbitrators' intent even if it is not a breach of their specific language. Probably the best course is to post a request for clarification, ask a clerk to notify CoM for you, and have the arbitrators comment. Enforcement might be controversial if the arbitrators have not commented first. But I will nudge them by email to see if they can make it quick. Thatcher 14:33, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll do that. I don't seek enforcement as such - I would just like to be free of accusations about my editing intentions. Cheers, Wikidemon (talk) 14:39, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Biophys 1RR

Shouldn't Biophys be formally placed on 1RR now that it's clear that he won't be retiring after all? Offliner (talk) 01:48, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

• Yes. Thatcher 01:02, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I got your notice. I hate to ask this question, but you just said this. You are right. Indeed, according to the ruling "Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict ... if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia..." and so on. Thus, an editor can be sanctioned only for the violations taking place AFTER him receiving the official warning. Although you issued such warnings to several users, the alleged violation in "Nashi" took place BEFORE your official warning. I am sure that none of the sanctioned editors could imagine that a single revert in this article could result in editing restrictions for indefinite period of time, although they knew about this ruling in general. That is why your advance warning was required per ArbCom ruling. This is not to tell that following the 1RR rule is so terrible (and I am pretty comfortable with it), but some editors feel themselves unfairly treated, as clear form the discussion at your talk page. I am sorry if my question seems disruptive, but some clarity would be important.Biophys (talk) 03:05, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

See my answer to Martintg below. Thatcher 14:34, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Honour and Passion cleanup

In the delete-restore cycle, the protection got lost. I reset it. I have no idea if the anon edit since then that would have been prevented is good or not (no clue about anything on this page except it's a vandalism magnet). DMacks (talk) 02:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Dane Rauschenberg

I think you are correct on barring IP address edits on this article for a time. However, if you review the edits, you will not see evidence of "edit warring." Instead, you will see a set of IP addresses making edits that only the subject of the article could have authored, and other people replacing them with verifiable content. I will not edit the article, but the autobiographical nature of the article is the subject of weekly discussion at local running clubs, and I assume that those individuals will continue to follow it. Racepacket (talk) 06:56, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Brave edit

This suggestion seems a bit brave in my honest opinion. I suggest that you strike it out. :/ --194x144x90x118 (talk) 16:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Why would this comment need striking out? It's actually a comment that helps establish your history as an editor, and gives some background as to how your first edits as 194x came with an already-establish knowledge of wikipedia principles. Dayewalker (talk) 17:50, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Well he spoke of going out on a limb, just an attempt at humor a failed joke on my part obviously.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 17:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I got it. Thatcher 01:01, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I understand. I apologize to both of you for the mistake on my part. Dayewalker (talk) 01:10, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikifan12345

This may have been just a typo — "Halfacanyon appears to be Unrelated to Tundrbuffy/Dajudem on a purely technical level" — but if it really was Halfacanyon you checked, it was actually Wikifan12345 (talk · contribs) who is suspected of being associated with the CAMERA accounts, specifically with Tundrabuggy/Dajudem, though not necessarily the same person. Dajudem's IP address by her own acknowledgment was 75.164.50.27, in case that helps. More details here. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 00:19, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

• OK, well there is still nothing useful to see for either of them. Thatcher 01:01, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 01:03, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Concerning Radeksz and Colchicum

Hi Thatcher, having read this, I was wondering if Radeksz and Colchicum should have been afforded the same benefit of only a formal notification that you seem to be recommending for Skäpperöd, Loosmark, Elysander and Jacurek? You did formally notice both Radeksz and Colchicum, but then slapped an essentially indefinite 1RR on them two days later. I've been working in the area covered RFAR/Digwuren for quite a while and as far as I can tell Radeksz's and Colchicum's involvement in this space is quite sporadic, so I don't know if they would have been fully aware that they could become subject to discretionary sanctions. Cheers. --Martintg (talk) 12:10, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

• Last night I reviewed the contributions of all the editors I sanctioned, looking specifically for knowledge and awareness of the arbitration case. Given the number of ANI, editwarring, and previous enforcement complaints, I don't think someone could reasonably conclude that these editors had no knowledge of the possibility that their conduct on these articles could be subject to sanction. Radeksz in particular, participated at 3 prior requests for enforcement against other editors. See User:Thatcher/Sandbox1. The history of disputes in this area is very disappointing, 1RR should probably have been applied much earlier. Thatcher 14:32, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

• • Yes, every editor was well aware of the case and sanctions. However, no one expected to be sanctioned for the rare reverts (one in a few days) in article "Nashi". I do not know what Radek and Colchicum thought, but I honestly believed that I am only a subject to an official EE warning if my behavior was problematic. Once receveing the warning, I might stop editing in ths area, change my editing habits, or whatever. I thought so precisely because I knew these ArbCom rulings. (I realized that I was possibly wrong only after reading the comments on AE appeal by Grandmaster). There are also other questions about the restriction you issued. First, you issued an 1RR restriction for editing article "Nashi", although some of the editiors (including me and Radek) actually followed 1RR restriction while editing this article. Does it mean that anyone in general can be sanctioned for edit warring even if he follows 1RR rule? I am not quite sure. Second, you used an argument about "tag-teaming". But this is a controversial concept, and it has been de facto rejected by ArbCom during last EE case, although many users tried to bring it there. Indeed, it s very common that several users revert someone else who fight against consensus. Does it mean tag-teaming? To summarize, there are several very general questions about the discretinary sanctions that might worth a clarification request to ArbCom.Biophys (talk) 15:47, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Any affected editor is free to appeal to other admins via the admin noticeboard or to Arbcom. Thatcher 00:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Loosmark

Dear Thatcher, can you look at the activities of Loosmark? He seems to be a nationalist POV editor. I have seen him trolling at different pages. AdjustShift (talk) 21:04, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

• POV pushing by itself is not necessarily a problem, as I noted at Enforcement, While it is possible for editors with strongly held opposing viewpoints to collaborate and produce neutral articles, it is extremely difficult, and requires editors to be patient, flexible, respectful of their fellow editors, and willing to negotiate and compromise. The prior complaint dealt only with Expulsions.... Are there other articles? Specifically evidence that he is rude, ignores consensus when it is against him, or refuses to participate in good faith negotiations? This is also why the RFC and third opinion mechanisms are so important; when committed regulars go around in circles and are unwilling to bend one way or the other, great weight should be given to the opinions of uninvolved editors. Thatcher 13:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

You can read his comments on my talk page. I had to erase three of his comments from my talk page because they were trollish.[23][24][25] His argumentative comments are disruptive and trollish. AdjustShift (talk) 13:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I think the minor dispute is over. AdjustShift (talk) 15:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah after I brought your accusation of trolling to the Administrators' noticeboard attention and the cunclusion there was Not trolling, but a content wording dispute, nothing for an admin to do here. However, please don't call other editors trolls or their edits trolling. you admited I wasn't trolling and returned my deleted comment. So yes the "minor dispute is over". Loosmark (talk) 11:55, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Another thing is I completely reject the claim that I'm a "nationalist POV editor". I most probably have a POV which is much closer to a Polish POV rather than a German one but then the opposite seems to be true for every German editor on wikipedia I've encountered. And isn't that completely normal? Having a completely NPOV is, IMO, almost impossible. However being a nationalist is something very different, and I think I'm light years away from being a nationalist. Therefore AdjustShift, I'd ask you again to please don't throw accusations such as nationalist or troll around so easily. Loosmark (talk) 12:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Loosmark AE, Request for clarification by Skäpperöd

To not troll the AE thread you just closed, I post here and I really hope that you will find the time to answer the clarification request I posted in that thread, collapsed below:

Extended content

I think I have adhered to the principles of wikipedia in my editing conduct, and would like Thatcher to give me a feedback where this was not the case. In my understanding, the removal of an unsourced statement without prior discussion is justified if one has reason to believe that it does not comply with the core policies and neither is benefitial for the article, and if one states these reasons in his edit summary. I did so twice in a period of two days, and did not repeat this a third time when this was reverted but tagged it and started a discussion. I understand that this was a courtesy, and that I would have been justified in removing this statement again if I had chosen to do so. I understand that any editor chosing to re-instate a disputed unsourced statement should at least utilize sources supporting the accuracy and relevancy of the statement, and that the discussion should focus on the evaluation of such sources. I understand that in the discussion, I did everything right by not participating in discussions not concerned with the statement, ignoring provocative statements, only focus on the issue, and make alternative proposals I feel everyone could accept. I also think I was right in exchanging the disputed statement for the proposed change when the proposal was not commented on for two days despite ongoing discussion not related to the line. That said,I really would appreciate it if my above question in the section "Additional comments by Skäpperöd" ("give some advise how to deal with situations like that") would not be left unanswered, and that it is pointed out which of my actions/understandings are supported and which are objected to. With a warning, as proposed by Thatcher, I can't do anything useful. I am aware of the cases, I do not need to be warned. I need a decision on what actions detailed in "Additional comments by Skäpperöd" are valid in respect to the policies and remedies and which are not.

It is really important to me that I do not get an unspecific warning but a specific answer where exactly you think I am right and where exactly you think I am wrong and what exactly I should have done different. Thank you. Skäpperöd (talk) 11:40, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

• I am not really trying to finely calibrate my response to variations in behavior. I think (at least as far as the recent problem at Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II) you have been a bit more flexible and willing to discuss the situation than others. Still, the problems with that discussion were primarily, reverting while Loosmark still objected (which shows a certain amount of disrespect) and, failure to bring in outside editors via the RFC or 3O mechanism. 12,000 words spent on the talk page discussing one sentence is almost worse than no discussion at all, are you any closer to a solution? As an outside editor, I might point out that the initial removal [26] looks reasonable, because that paragraph is about pre-WWII actions. But the next paragraph already has some examples of atrocities,

“ Examples include Soviet prisoners of war murdered in the millions; those in Soviet-occupied territory who disappeared into the GULag system; those who were forceably resettled (e.g., the Volga Germans); or millions more, civilian and PoW, who were forced into slave labor, often in appalling conditions in Germany and in the Soviet Union). During the Nazi occupation of Eastern Europe, many citizens of German descent registered with the Deutsche Volksliste. Some of them held important positions in the hierarchy of the Nazi administration or otherwise participated in Nazi atrocities, causing enmity against Germans generally, which would later be used as one of the justifications for their expulsion ”

So it does not seem unreasonable to place the example of Warsaw there as well, although with an appropriate source and the language needs improvement (perhaps "Another example" not "The most dramatic"). This is the sort of comment you might get if you solicited advice from outside the narrow circle of committed editors. In the case of prolonged disputes between editors with strong opinions on both sides, the advice of neutral outside editors should be given great weight. The time and place to ask for outside help is at the article talk page very early in the dispute, not at Enforcement after a long edit war.

It is difficult to sort out in these disputes who precisely is most in the wrong. On scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being an obstinate irredeemable edit warring POV pusher and 10 being the perfect collaborative editor, is Loosmark a 4 and you a 6? Even if so, the available remedies are limited. At this point, nothing has been enacted. Article bans or blocks can be handed out as needed in the future, hopefully they won't be needed. Thatcher 13:20, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to address my concerns. I understand that you consider my reverting Loosmark unconstructive, and that I should have recruited outside oppinions. Especially concerning the outside oppinions, I would value some additional advice.

Regarding the Loosmark revert: I have to accept that you got the impression that it was "disrespectful", but it really was not meant to:

• I had posted the proposed change on 25 June, and although some discussion continued on this day, it was about general stuff and not about the proposed change. From the evening of 25 June until 27 June, there was no discussion at all [27] (scroll down to the bottom to see that noone objected to the change).
• I introduced the change using two edits on 27 June [28]. Loosmark reverted only my last edit, stating in the edit summary "no consensus was reached for this removal" [29]. The quick reversion (within 7 minutes) of only one of my changes, leading to the odd situation that now both the proposed change and the disputed statement were in the article, and the edit summary made me confident that Loosmark had simply overlooked the preceeding insertion, and I thought that after pointing that out in my edit summary [30] he would not revert again. When they did, I took no further action.

Regarding 3O/RfC: As I already mentioned in my opening statement of the AE thread, I had thought about an RfC. I dismissed the idea that an RfC is a proper venue for this dispute because:

• The statement did not fulfill RS and V (obviously)
• Though RS and V must be fulfilled before NPOV and UNDUE can even be considered, it would obviously have been violating these two even if it was sourced. I mean it starts out with "The most dramatic ...", and any experienced user MUST have seen that at least parts of the statement are not complying with NPOV and NOR.
• I think that every user, including Elysander and me, is justified in removing such statements without establishing consensus on talk first, because consensus is already established that the removal of statements obviously not complying with the content-directed core policies is benefitial for the project. Especially WP:BURDEN leaves no doubt on that, though 3RR would not exempt it from prohibition if it gets excessive (>3/d). Are you with me so far?

I thus did not consider this a genuine content dispute, but nevertheless acted almost like it was one (not quite in a BRD, but in a RRD manner). I was the one who initiated the discussion and tagged the statement instead of removing it. I felt that with initiating a 3O/RfC I would have even further legitimated the reverts of Radeksz and completely inverted the BURDEN rule.

Thinking about your comment however and in respect to the developements at the article's talk page, which has pretty much turned into a WWII forum, I realize this approach was counter-productive. You are right that it indeed was an option to focus the discussion and probably even prevent this to flare up again on 27 June after the discussion had ceased for two days (though I really had not expected that as outlined above). Having looked at it from that angle, I think an RfC would still be benefitial because the discussion is still going nowhere in ever new forking threads.

I would value your answer to the following questions:

• (1) The "Are you with me so far" question above - a technical answer if I was anywhere close to trouble with my actions or if they are as legitimate as I view them (technically). It is important for me to know whether I misinterpreted something.
• (2) The belated RfC, how do you like the idea of trying it the following way: I announce that idea on the article's talk page and invite everyone who wants to include the destruction of Warsaw to settle on as few proposals as possible for the actual phrasing. Once that is done, I (or someone else) initiate(s) the RfC for comments on whether and how to include.
• (3) I see 3O as an option only available in early stages of a dispute. Is 3O also an option if more editors are involved, but the dispute has not yet been going on for so long?

Thank you again for your time. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:54, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe I'm totally blind or it's the talk page which is mega messed up but I completely can't locate this "unanswered proposal" Skäpperöd keeps bringing up. To the best of my knowledge I immediately opposed any proposal of removing the mention of Warsaw's destruction and associated crimes. Regarding the phrasing of those events I'm open to trying to find a phrasing which would achieve largest possible consensus and I don't think anybody would oppose any such process either. Loosmark (talk) 15:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Thatcher, I would like you to look at the activities of Loosmark. He is constantly trolling and making disruptive comments here and there. AdjustShift (talk) 13:16, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I request you present evidence that "I'm constantly trolling" or withdraw the accusation. Loosmark (talk) 12:29, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear Loosmark, I've already withdrawn my accusation. You were not trolling. I made that comment before you started the thread at ANI. AdjustShift (talk) 17:04, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of the EE corner. Could you also look at the activities of the editors such as HerkusMonte and Skäpperöd? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:14, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I've looked at Skäpperöd as part of the Loosmark complaint; there are some issues there but not as bad as some others. I have not looked at HerkusMonte. Can you point to some specific diffs, or perhaps file an Enforcement request asking for a review of his edits with a request to notice him in on whichever case is involved. Thatcher 19:46, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

As far as Herkus, I'd point out to edit warring with uncivil edit summaries, for recent diffs see: [31], [32] and [33]. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:53, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

From Jacurek

I was thinking about it a lot if I should even confront you with this question... simply because I think that overall, you have made a right decision placing both sides on notice not just one and in general you are always quite fair and I respect you. But.... do you really think that my one revert [[34]] with this comment attached to it: - it may still have to be here. We do not know yet. Please wait for others to discuss it and then we will all make a right decision. I'm sure we can come to the agreement. Thanks - versus 26 edits on the articles talk page at the same period of time[[35]] (please also check what I had to say there) justifies your decision to place me an warning as well? I realize that you will answer with some examples of other pages regarding EE I have edited/reverted in the past to justify your decision or you will ask me to appeal. This is natural and anybody would do it. There is always something one can find for somebody if one really wants too, I have learned that already. I also would like to point out that I will not appeal your decision. Why? Simply because I'm sure I will not do anything wrong in the future for that warming to take effect unless somebody will "come after me" and use the fact that I'm on that list against me. Not that long ago I went through such situation. This is my only concern. But what I also think is that I should not be on that list for making ONE careful revert with polite explanations why I'm doing it. I'm shaking my head with disbelieve...Thanks Thatcher and I hope you don't mind this little criticism but I had to ask you because the whole incident just "blows my mind" Remember, we are all humans and we all make mistakes...even administrators do. Thanks--Jacurek (talk) 23:08, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi Thatcher, I did not hear from you but I understand that you are busy being an administrator and all. When you get a chance could you honestly answer my question. This is very important to me. Thanks.--Jacurek (talk) 22:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Appeal

I've filed the relevant appeal, per your suggestion at [36]. I wasn't sure about the proper formatting.radek (talk) 19:43, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Thatcher, if you have the time, could you reply to the issues raised at the link above, especially with regard to the alleged lack of notification? I believe we can't really go ahead in evaluating this appeal without hearing your take on the matter.  Sandstein  17:11, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Have you read this: User:Thatcher/Sandbox1? Offliner (talk) 17:16, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Awareness of a particular case is not the same as a warning related to specific behaviour. The remedy states "Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision by an uninvolved administrator; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines". It would be pretty unreasonable to expect someone to think that doing three reverts in 10 days would elicit a 1RR restriction, regardless of them being aware of the various Arbcom cases, hence the need for a warning that such continued behaviour will result in a sanction. Where was the counseling on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing? --Martintg (talk) 20:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Please see now also Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification#Request for clarification: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary sanctions.  Sandstein  13:58, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

admin civility

I agree. My take is that policy already supports this and the way you've put the lingering questions is helpful. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:07, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Assistance needed

Hi Thatcher, since I have been given a 1RR restriction, could look at the recent edits on Battle of Narva (1944). The casualty figures were already previously discussed extensively here, yet we have this IP reverting to numbers derived from the period after the battle (while claiming in his edit comments "here was no "battle of Narva" before september", when the scope of the article is clearly February to September 1944). Also check out his uncivil comments on talk justitfying his edits. This kind of thing happens quite often, but now it seems IPs are at an advantage now that other established editors don't seem willing to do any more reverts lest they get sanctioned and I have used up my 1RR on this article, so could you assist? --Martintg (talk) 21:50, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

• It was a blocked editor evading his block. I've reverted it back. Thatcher 22:22, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Clarification

Hi!

By this, did you mean to say that CheckUser confirms the accounts to be related or was it a general observation? I ask because I'm pretty convinced they are the same person and I'd be willing to formally file an SPI if the relationship of those accounts is something you cannot discuss outside of SPI environment.

Thanks. Big Bird (talk • contribs) 20:20, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, they are the same person, per checkuser. Sorry for being abstruse. Thatcher 20:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Russavia

It seems you have left Russavia's 1RR restriction in place. Can you point out where exactly did he receive a formal warning about the Digwuren sanctions? Offliner (talk) 20:30, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

• He had been blocked based on the decision, recorded in the log on Sept 15, 2008. There is no record of the block being successfully appealed. I would be surprised if you can find anyone who thinks that being blocked is not "notice" of the possibility of editing restrictions. However, should you find an uninvolved admin (other that Deacon or Piotrus) who agrees with you, that admin may vacate the 1RR restriction without further consulting me. Good luck. Thatcher 20:39, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually no, I have never been blocked under the terms of WP:DIGWUREN. You have lifted the 1RR restrictions on other editors based upon the notion that none of them were advised of sanctions under WP:DIGWUREN. The first I learnt of Digwuren was some weeks AFTER I was blocked for the placement of a WP:COI notice on Biophys' talk page. At no stage was I ever advised of Digwuren restrictions, as is written. I am aware of the Arbitration case, as are the other editors who have had the 1RR restrictions lifted by yourself, however, I have mine in place because Moreschi blocked me, and placed my name on the block log...at no stage did he, or any other admin, advise me of that arbcom, so I have never formally been advised of the case, and hence, I would request either 1) my 1RR restrictions be lifted or 2) the restrictions be placed back upon the other editors because, and I speak frankly, to have those restrictions on myself but not on other editors who have edit warred is ridiculous. --Russavia ^Dialogue 05:19, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Fine. I'm sure that with all the edit warring described at User:Shell Kinney/EEreportsreview, you had no idea that your behavior was in any way questionable, it was all someone else's fault. Vacated against all editors. I'm sure Wikipedia will be a better place because of it. Thatcher 10:57, 7 July 2009 (UTC)