User talk:Victor Chmara

R&I – a new approach

R&I has been protected for a breather while we try to form some consensus as to the direction. In the interim we have set up a “sandbox” at: User:Moonriddengirl/Race and intelligence/backgound. Moonriddengirl is a neutral admin who has set up the space where we can work on the text section by section; this allows us to have a talk page for the micro project. So far JJJamal, Futurebird and I have made suggested changes with additions in bold and deletions in strikeout. This section and its talk page is an experiment in trying to come together as a group on a focused area. If it works we’d like to approach Guy, the admin who has protected the page, to insert our work-product into the protected article and then take on another section. I would really like to get your feedback on this so that we can demonstrate a consensus. Thanks. --Kevin Murray 19:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

User Turkuun

Hello, I read the Finalnd article discussion area and noticed that the user Turkuun has also caused some problems in Finland article with his radical edits. We have a similar situation with the Estonia article where he is trying to restructure and rewrite the existing and approved article chapters and headings. I was wondering if you could provide some help or advice in dealing with such contributor as Turkuun is? Karabinier 00:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Aaro Olavi Pajari

What sources did you use to say he is most often referred to as "Aaro Pajari"? Most of the sources that I consulted used his full name. --Bejnar (talk) 20:19, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Pakkoruotsi

You wrote "not necessarily derogatory, sometimes used by e.g. newspapers as a purely descriptive term". I do not have good sources, so not redoing that edit, but I question using the word "as a purely descriptive term. It may be used as such by people not liking the subject, and also otherwise more or less accidentally. I do not see "somewhat charged" as a correct description.

Olisin iloinen, jos voisit hiukan selventää missä yhteyksissä sanaa käytetään neutraalisti. Avainsana tässä ehkä on "sometimes": joskus sana lipsahtaa toisissakin yhteyksissä. En koe sellaisen muuttavan sanaa neutraaliksi.

--LPfi (talk) 11:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Gardner/Multiple Intelligence

Hi there, it looks like you're involved in an edit war over a couple of articles. I found this dispute because User:ProjectZero posted Howard Gardner to WP:RPP, in what appears to be an attempt to block you (or anyone) from editing the article. Judging by the user's edit pattern, I would say that they might have a conflict of interest with the articles in question; I would suggest asking the user about it, and then taking it to WP:COI/N if it remains an issue. Also, the Howard Gardner article appears to be a textbook case of WP:COATRACK; IMO it should either be expanded to meet WP:NOTABILITY and WP:V, or AfD'd. In addition, see WP:SELFPUB #4; the article is in dire need of third party sources.

Just thought I'd let you know, since I don't feel like getting directly involved :-) Mildly Mad^T_C 17:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Race and intelligence

Hello Victor,

I notice you’ve left a few comments on the talk page for this article, and you seem like a fairly reasonable person. (Your suggestions about my proposed addition to the article were helpful, for example.) Would you mind being a bit more involved there? Mathsci has been trying to make a lot of changes to this article very quickly, as well as to related articles such as History of the race and intelligence controversy, Mainstream Science on Intelligence, and Snyderman and Rothman (study). Because of the speed that he’s been making these changes, as well as the lack of many users involved in these articles at present, not many people have had the opportunity to comment on the changes he’s making. I think changes of this magnitude deserve more attention and scrutiny than they’ve been getting, so I would appreciate your participation as an additional editor to provide feedback about them, if that’s all right with you. Is this something you’d be willing to help out with? --Captain Occam (talk) 11:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I notice you’ve recently gotten involved in a few of these articles to help make them more neutral. Thanks; I appreciate that. Lately I’ve been busy discussing Mathsci’s recent changes to the main Race and intelligence article, but please let me know if you feel like you need someone else to help you in the rest of these articles. I know from experience how taxing it can be to debate with Mathsci.

If you’re feeling overwhelmed, one other person who you can contact for help is user:David.Kane. He’s not as active here as I am, but he’s also helped make things less difficult for me when I’ve been in similar situations in the past. --Captain Occam (talk) 20:06, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

ArbCom Case

Rvcx recently filed a request for arbitration on Race and intelligence and the related articles.

You are involved in a recently-filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Race_and_Intelligence and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—

• Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Requests for Arbitration;
• Wikipedia:Arbitration guide.

Thanks, Captain Occam (talk) 14:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Good edit about Bouchard--thanks.

I appreciate your nearly immediate edit of my joining discussion of two papers by Bouchard et al. into one sentence. Yes, what you wrote actually makes more clear the point of what the difference is between heritability and mutability/malleability/controllability. It's good to have a sharp-eyed editor looking after the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WeijiBaikeBianji (talk • contribs) 17:10, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Significance and policy relevance

Hi Victor,

You gave me some useful advice about this section of the article while I was drafting it up, so I’d appreciate it if you could participate in the current discussion about it on the article talk page. Aprock has said that sometime in the next few days he’ll have some additional suggestions about how this section can be improved, which is fine with me, but I also think there’s no reason to not include it in the article until then, and edit it in the mainspace based on his suggestions whenever he provides them. I can’t tell whether Aprock agrees with that suggestion or not, since he hasn’t answered my question about it.

Do you have an opinion about this? If so, I’d appreciate you giving your perspective about this in the discussion there. --Captain Occam (talk) 04:28, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

RFAR Race and intelligence

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 12:10, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

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Race, Evolution, and Behavior

Hi Victor,

I and a few other people are working on trying to make the article about J. P. Rushton's book Race, Evolution, and Behavior more balanced. You've provided a lot of help with this on similar articles in the past, so I was wondering whether you'd be interested in helping out on this one also.

If you are, I and one other user have made some suggestions on the talk page here about ways this article can be improved. I'd appreciate any help you can offer with this. --Captain Occam (talk) 13:46, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Recent edits on History of the race and intelligence controversy, etc.

Hi, Victor,

I made a quick comment on the talk page of "History of the race and intelligence controversy" while in the midst of complicated edits on other articles. I see discussion has ensued there. I should make clear, as perhaps was unclear from that post, that in general I am happy to see major articles that have mostly come from the keyboard of one editor get second and third looks from other editors who may have different perspectives to bring to the articles. That goes also for articles that I add the most content to at first. "Anyone can edit this page right now" is what I will assert about new contributions I post (you'll see a major rewrite of a long-unsourced article from my keyboard grow over the next few days), and I welcome your and anyone's willingness to refer to reliable sources to add V and NPOV and encyclopedic tone to articles.

I see Captain Occam has just asked your help for edits of the article on Philippe Rushton's book. Anyone might have a lot to contribute to a wide variety of articles, as long as the contributor refers to sources and ponders their place in the overall scholarly literature on the subject, in light of Wikipedia policy. It would be great to improve many articles on Wikipedia, the sooner the better, in a collaborative fashion.

I recall posting to the ArbCom case file on Race and intelligence a quotation from Arthur Jensen about James R. Flynn, followed up by a quotation by Flynn about Jensen. I consider those two scholars, who plainly disagree sharply about several factual issues, models of how to disagree without being disagreeable. Making the warranted assumption that I will not fully agree with any other editor on Wikipedia about all the issues involved in any particular article, I would like to invite you and other editors who edit the same articles to assume good faith and treat factual issues as issues to discuss calmly and rationally, and editorial issues as issues to be resolved according to what the sources say and what Wikipedia policies require. On that basis I'm willing to work with anyone here, and invite anyone to participate in editing any article.

Best wishes in checking the articles that interest you for accuracy and what seems to you to be balanced point of view. I have not taken the opportunity yet to do a line-by-line reading of any of the longer articles on Wikipedia more or less related to the topic of human intelligence (which is one of two main topics of my professional research, the other being primary mathematics pedagogy). I have been sufficiently appalled by the poor sourcing of most of the shorter articles that I have read line-by-line that I was motivated first of all to share an extensive citations list with all other Wikipedians, which I have still been expanding today and will continue to expand for quite a while. Just recently I have begun substantive edits of articles that appear to have been long neglected, not overly politically controversial, and logically related to important issues. It may be a while before I join you in editing any of the more contentious articles very much. I appreciated your fast improvement of my early edit in the lede of one of the contentious articles about Thomas Bouchard's 2009 paper. I considered that a friendly act and I hope that you and I can maintain a friendly tone of cooperation even if we don't always agree on all the issues we read about and discuss together. Now that I am personally acquainted with Bouchard, as I have been since not quite a year ago, I'll be writing to him and to many of his research colleagues to make sure I am up to date and reading the mainstream literature as I continue to ponder how to improve Wikipedia. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 22:40, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

edit warring on History of the race and intelligence controversy‎

You currently appear to be edit warring on History of the race and intelligence controversy‎. You seem to be making many unsourced edits with the specific intention of establishing your own preferred point of view. I invite you to engage these issues on the talk page. aprock (talk) 23:12, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period. Additionally, users who perform several reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. When in dispute with another editor you should first try to discuss controversial changes to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. Should that prove unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. If the edit warring continues, you may be blocked from editing without further notice.

I have place a section in ANI regarding this issue [1] aprock (talk) 00:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Snyderman and Rothman

Hi Victor,

I thought you’d like to know that the changes you made in June to Snyderman and Rothman (study) are currently being challenged. I approve of the changes you made to that article, so I’m arguing in favor of them being kept, but I think discussion about these changes probably ought to also include the person who originally made them. --Captain Occam (talk) 22:24, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Have you been following the recent developments over this article? I haven’t seen much of you lately. --Captain Occam (talk) 04:41, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Re your comment in my user talk:

If you’re intending to take another look at the Snyderman and Rothman article, you might want to do it sometime sooner than next week. There’s currently an AFD for it, so there’s a chance that by next week it won’t be there anymore. --Captain Occam (talk) 12:59, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Whenever you have the chance, it would also be useful if you could take another look at the changes that Ramdrake, Mathsci and WeijiBaikeBianji made to the article earlier this month. The changes that you made in May and June are still being repeatedly undone, but David.Kane and I probably won’t be allowed to participate in this article for long enough beyond this point to be able to do anything about it ourselves. You have as good an understanding of the relevant issues as anyone, though, so I hope you’ll continue to pay attention to things like this in our absence. (And that goes for goes for all of the articles we’re going to be topic banned from, not just the Snyderman and Rothman one.) --Captain Occam (talk) 12:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence

This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. The following is a summary of the remedies enacted:

• Standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for "race and intelligence" and all closely related articles.
• The following editors are topic-banned from race and intelligence articles, broadly construed:
  • Mathsci (by consent)
  • David.Kane
  • Captain Occam
  • Mikemikev
• Mikemikev, who was indefinitely blocked as a result of an ANI discussion during the case proceedings, is site-banned for 12 months. Until his ArbCom ban expires, he may only appeal his block to the Arbitration Committee, via the Ban Appeals Subcommittee. After 12 months, he may choose to appeal the ban to either the Arbitration Committee or to the community.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee,

NW (Talk) 22:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Discuss this

Original Synthesis?

Hi, I'd appreciate it if you would take a look at this recent edit by Futurebird. [2] It looks a lot like original synthesis to me, but I don't think I should be reverting the article this soon after the arbitration case. Would you mind taking a look at it and seeing if it's a problem? Thanks. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 18:22, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for dealing with that so quickly!

If you don't mind, there are also some recent edits from Aprock that I'd appreciate having your opinion about, particularly these two: [3] and [4] Sorry to keep having to bother you about this, but I'm not sure what else to do. There aren't many people I can count on understanding wording issues like this, and I'm afraid to get involved myself at the moment for fear of being labeled a meatpuppet.

Even after the Arbcom case it looks like POV-pushing is still going on in these articles, even though they have discretionary sanctions for POV-pushing now. And the administrators don't seem to be paying attention to it either. I asked Georgewilliamherbert here how this should be brought up when it happens, but he hasn't responded. Do you have any suggestions about how to deal with this situation? It'd be nice to not have to be a messenger pigeon about these problematic edits, but I don't know what else to do. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 16:45, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement

A thread concerning your involvement in the recent arbitration of the race and intelligence dispute has been started here Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Captain_Occam. Wapondaponda (talk) 18:51, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm really sorry about this. I wouldn't have brought it up if I'd known it would be a problem like this and I didn't mean to cause you an inconvenience.

Every time I comment on anything related to these articles, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. As I go along, I hope experienced editors can help me learn what the appropriate way is of handling situations like these. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 23:58, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

We'd appreciate your input

Hi Victor,

There's been a discussion going on in the Race (classification of humans) article for the past week or so about a new draft for the "in biomedicine" section. Maunus invited me to write a draft, which I did, and then he said that he'd like to wait for further comment by you, Weiji, Aprock, and Slrubenstein before making a decision. Muntunwandi has now offered a different draft version of the article and we're having a hard time reaching a consensus about how to proceed from here. You're the only one whose opinion Maunus wanted who hasn't yet commented in this discussion, so it would probably be helpful to offer your opinion. [5] Thanks! -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 17:07, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement

Hello, an arbitration enforcement request about an issue you've been involved in has recently been posted here: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#WeijiBaikeBianji -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 22:39, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

E-mail?

Victor, would you be willing to have an e-mail discussion with me? I’d e-mail you directly, but you don’t have Wikipedia’s e-mail feature enabled. I have mine enabled, so you can just send me a message if the answer is yes.

The reason I’d like to talk to you via e-mail is not because I want to influence your editing on race and intelligence articles. From what I’m able to see, you’re doing excellent work on them as it is, probably better than I could do. But there’s something related to the arbitration ruling that I’d like to discuss, and that I think you’re more likely than anyone else to be aware of and have a helpful perspective about. --Captain Occam (talk) 04:25, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Occam, but I don't think that's a good idea. I think you should stay clear of these disputes for a while.--Victor Chmara (talk) 15:04, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

There was recently a request for clarification about this case, and the view of the arbitrators there was that dispute resolution related to the arbitration ruling is acceptable for topic banned editors. But if you’d still prefer to err on the side of caution, I’ll respect that. --Captain Occam (talk) 21:49, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Creativity and intelligence

Hi Victor. Did you read my post of sources on talk:Creativity? When we have the former head of the American Psychological Association (see Triarchic theory of intelligence) as well as many writers on creativity placing creativity within the intelligence debate, it seems quite apposite to include it within the overall topic. Articles can explain the disputes. Creativity as a research topic isn't treated as a bunch of artists lounging around daubing canvasses.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 14:49, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I've replied on my own talkpage - I'd prefer if we kept it to one page.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 15:31, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Refs

Thanks. I was off sorting these out myself when you left the message. I've added another Baker. In my experience refs often tend to drift out of place over time on the wiki with so many editors making changes. This may help prevent confusion down the line. Professor marginalia (talk) 21:22, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Nordic race

I think you'd be interested in taking a look at this article. It is a GA, but it is in need of some people who know about race.·Maunus·ƛ· 18:56, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

I took a look at it, but I am unfortunately not able to muster enough enthusiasm to edit an article on such a hoary subject...--Victor Chmara (talk) 11:52, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Letter to The Economist January 29th–February 4th 2011

The ArbCom case on Race and intelligence is mentioned in a letter to The Economist.[6] -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 01:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Sigmund Freud

Hello - regarding the Sigmund Freud article, could you please explain why you consider "Adolf Grünbaum argued that Popper was a slovenly reader of Freud and a poor logician" to be more neutral than "Adolf Grünbaum describes Popper as a slovenly reader of Freud and a poor logician"? I see no difference in neutrality between the two wordings. I do not want to edit war over the issue, but I do not see your changes as an improvement, and may remove them at some time in the future. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 20:58, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Ahtisaari categories

Remove them if you wish. I'm working through awards recipients, adding them to appropriate categories. Sometimes, the category does not (yet) exist but as the format is (more or less) standard, they accumulate and get picked up when the cat is created. This can create orphans when other alphabets are transliterated in differing ways, but, again, they do get resolved. If it irritates you, plz delete - no offence will be taken. Folks at 137 (talk) 21:16, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

deleting

(Might as well clean up our Talk pages then.)

Thedavid (talk) 04:42, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Charles Murray

I agree with you that the list of hereditarian researchers in the lead section of the race and intelligence article ought to include more than just Jensen, Rushton, Lynn and Gottfredson. But I think it would be helpful if you could explain why Charles Murray should be included in response to Ramdrake's reason for removing him. Although I support including Murray, I also wonder whether there are other hereditarians who aren't PF grantees who would be just as notable to mention there. For example, how about John Loehlin or Nevan Sesardic?Boothello (talk) 07:26, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Feedback requested on new R&I lead

I just made a proposal here about a possible change to the lead of the race and intelligence article. Feedback about it would be appreciated.Boothello (talk) 19:50, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Would you be interested in writing a lead proposal for R&I as per the discussion on the talk page? You could try incorporating my attempt with Marek's suggestions and your own preferences. It may yet be possible to come up with something everyone's happy with.Boothello (talk) 03:18, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of List of Finnish Jews

The article List of Finnish Jews has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Empty list

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. -- Selket ^Talk 17:21, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Lewontin's Argument

Fllowing the recen [7] our participation in the dicussion about the title and scope of the article will be apreciated.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:08, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Feedback requested

Your input would be appreciated in the discussion here.Boothello (talk) 05:22, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Lewontin's fallacy

Victor, I just noticed your comment on the R&I talk page about Lewontin's Fallacy. After looking at this article, I noticed there is now a proposal to merge it into Race and genetics, even though the AFD for it was closed as "keep" less than a month ago. Most of the people advocating the merge are people who voted delete or merge in the AFD, and only one person who voted keep is participating. I'm not sure what appropriate protocol here is, but you've been around for a lot longer than me, so I was wondering if you have an idea about it. It seems wrong that right after an AFD is closed as keep, the people who voted delete can start a new discussion without the people who voted keep, and merge the article as a result of that one-sided discussion. My instinct would be to notify the rest of the people who voted in the AFD, including the keep voters, but I don’t want to get accused of canvassing. Do you know how something like this should be handled?Boothello (talk) 00:56, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

It was closed as keep but a significant number of keep voters stated that they would prefer widening the scope of the article or merging it into another one. I have notified all editors who participated in the AfD of the ongoing discussion - both keep and delete !voters.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:23, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Looking for source suggestions

I was wondering if you could offer some advice here. You've said before that Lynn and Vanhanen are considered pioneers in the field of international IQ comparisons, and I'm looking for sources that actually say that specifically. I have a source that's decent in this regard (Hunt) but I'd be grateful for additional recommendations.Boothello (talk) 01:32, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Outside opinions needed

(Cross-posted to you and Maunus)

this discussion needs some additional input from other people familiar with the R&I topic area. It's another dispute between myself and Volunteer Marek about whether when a researcher is a Pioneer Fund grantee, or is controversial for some other reason, it's NPOV to bring up the criticisms against them when introducing them in a single sentence. Both of you have commented on this issue before, and I quoted some of your earlier comments about it. We don't agree whether the current issue is the same as what was discussed previously, though. Even if it is, it'd be useful if we could resolve this issue permanently so it doesn't crop up again and again.Boothello (talk) 00:35, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

IQ and wealth

Having reverted my removal of the table I now expect you to provide your arguments on the talkpage for why this page shouldn't follow the MOS guideline against large embedded lists that break the reading flow.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:16, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

R/I

Please stop using the talk page as a forum and do improve the article. Equating the atomic theory of matter with the race as a social construct is nothing less than a gross misrepresentation of the science and highly disruptive. aprock (talk) 16:47, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I was simply answering to unsupported statements made on the talk page. Unless you can show that your view is "the mainstream" using reliable sources, stop making such claims. Why is it "disruptive" to ask editors to back their assertions with reliable sources?

"Race is a social construct" is a stupid, irrelevant phrase. All things in human culture are social constructs. Certainly all scientific entities are social constructs. Stating that does not get us anywhere.--Victor Chmara (talk) 17:02, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

"Race is a social construct" is a stupid, irrelevant phrase. While your views may be personally edifying and satisfactory for you, they have no place in crafting articles. aprock (talk) 17:31, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Fortunately, you don't get to decide who edits articles. I'm still waiting for you to back up your claims with reliable sources.--Victor Chmara (talk) 17:42, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I've invited everyone to edit the article. If you're going to make blanket reverts, I suggest you bring your issues to the talk page. aprock (talk) 17:50, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

If you revert the article again to include misleading information, I will seek to have you banned from further editing in the topic area. Be more careful. Hipocrite (talk) 18:01, 13 December 2011 (UTC)