User talk:ATren

Be well

Thanks for the kind note. I hope you decide to return to active editing, and focus on the articles that bring you both happiness and a minimum of stress. Viriditas (talk) 07:14, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Condolences

Has the world gone mad?. You're a rare voice of sanity in a sea of tempest. How those warnings can be deemed uncivil is as clear a demonstration of bias as can be imagined. --Michael C. Price ^talk 15:36, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Condolences is a bit strong; I will certainly not be mourning this decision. ;-) In fact, I kind of welcome it, because it's so absurd that I can now clearly see what Wikipedia is really about. Wikipedia is the worst kind of deception, basically a wolf in sheep's clothing -- a political blog masquerading as a "neutral" encyclopedia. Even Conservapedia isn't this bad, because at least they have the integrity to state their biases up front. Wikipedia is just as partisan as Conservapedia but is dishonest about it, portraying itself as the "neutral" alternative -- and when whistleblowers like me point out the elephant in the room, they ban us.

It's a classic case "blame the whistleblower". There are very powerful individuals on this site who want to push their activist agenda, and those powers have allowed this stuff to happen for years with a wink and a nod. But then, when editors like me (and JWB, and Cla68, and M4th, and many others) came along and revealed the ugliness, they were forced to take action to protect their image, and the image of the "neutral encyclopedia". But they weren't about to let the whistleblowers go unscathed. The whistleblower never comes away clean.

So even as I continue to fight this sanction, when it finally comes down, I will place the sanction notice prominently on my user page, kind of like a badge of honor. I was never going to edit CC pages again, I already decided that a while ago, so the sanction is actually meaningless to me in that sense. But it will always be a reminder that I stood up for what was right.

But anyway, thanks for the note of support. :-) ATren (talk) 02:01, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, amazing how ingrained the shoot the whistleblower mentality is. And we laugh at kings of old for shooting the messenger. Truely nothing new under the sun. --Michael C. Price ^talk 06:45, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Hey

Thanks for your comment on my talk page, I've been wanting to get back to you about that. I don't think keeping the notice, when it comes, on a banner on top of a page is a good idea -- it'll just make you angry about an event you can't change and that isn't constructive. I've been in similar situations to the one you (and I) are in right now, and believe me, it's not worth it to remain angry -- remaining angry often leads you to actions that result in a block, which just creates a vicious cycle. Letting go is practical advice.

I also want to warn you about comments like this, from the P.D. talk page: Carcharoth, Risker, Mailerdiablo, Coren, and especially Roger and Shell -- I am shocked at the lack of integrity they have shown. That comes close to a personal attack (it may well be a definite personal attack). I think if you're not given a warning or block over that statement it'll be because ArbCom members are indulgent with you (they understand it's not fun to be sanctioned), but don't mistake that indulgence with permission to say things like that. My own comments are aggressive but I'm trying to appeal to their sense of fair play and I'm being careful not to attack anybody. (Personally, I don't want to comment on anyone's character, just point out things they've done that their consciences should lead them to reconsider -- that's a lot different from saying they have no integrity, in fact I'm depending on their integrity.) ArbCom members have a tough job and they're certain to make mistakes, sometimes big mistakes. You and I have also made some mistakes in this imbroglio, so we should be sympathetic when others do. I'm worried that your comments will distract from the case I'm trying to make in that thread and others. People who feel they're under attack feel justified in closing their minds to what the people perceived as being attackers want. The provocative title, "Arbcom's integrity" was only meant to show what's at stake and prick their consciences. Remember, we have to try to work together on this project -- that's not a hazy ideal, just a cold, hard fact (and a necessity). If ArbCom members are calm, they're more likely to look into this and improve their ultimate decision. Attack them, and they're less likely to reconsider. Please just redact the comment. Better to remain the victim appealing to reason than come off looking like the victimizer. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 17:25, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I took another look at my own statement and redacted parts of it. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 18:20, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

JWB, making a mistake is human; not acknowledging that mistake, and then sticking to your guns despite mounting evidence of your wrongheadedness, is fundamentally indicative of a lack of integrity. I call it like I see it. Let them block me for it, because then I will have another piece of evidence of their hypocrisy. Not that I need anymore evidence of that. :-) ATren (talk) 22:31, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I see what you're saying. Thanks for redacting. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 23:14, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

By the way, I think you look pretty good on that table. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 23:23, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

This is that table. I should have linked to it before. Anyone interested enough in you to be watching your page should know that you were sanctioned for comparatively unimportant behavior -- behavior that would normally not get a sanction, in my opinion. [1] -- JohnWBarber (talk) 23:36, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that, JWB. Notice that Shell basically ignored it, as I knew she would. There are certain elements in this conflict (including a few, I believe, on the committee itself) who know exactly what is going on here, but are proceeding anyway with a wink and a nod, because after all, they're trying to save the world! That's the basic problem with an activist mentality at a place like Wikipedia: people think it's OK to twist the truth a little, to apply uneven standards and uneven enforcement, because they think they're doing it for the better good. The ends justify the means and all that. And that's not even a smear on those individuals; it's just human nature -- people are justifiably concerned about climate change and they believe that a little activism in support of a noble cause is good.

The fundamental flaw in this approach, the thing that nobody seems to realize, is that neutrality and trustworthiness of the source is the single most important issue when trying to convey a point of view. No matter how convincing an argument is, I will not trust it if it comes from a source which is not trustworthy. So in effect, these editors, and the admins who support them, have created a situation where Wikipedia is "on message" with respect to this important issue, but their methods and approach have significantly damaged the trustworthiness of Wikipedia as a source, especially with regard to this particular issue. So the net effect is not persuasive, but rather polarizing: those who already agree will come here and say "yes, of course!", but they didn't need persuasion anyway. It is those on the fence who require persuasion, and the absolute worst way to convince them is to come across as partisan to the core!

That's the irony in all this: their efforts to advance their "cause" are actually damaging it, and when people like me come along to try to fix it, we are accused of being partisan ourselves, which of course, increases the polarization!. I've asked myself at times, why am I fighting the inclusion of "dirt" in the BLPs of people I don't even respect? But of course, I know the answer to that: I do it because when Wikipedia allows that crap to happen, it reflects much worse on the project itself than on the BLP. That's the other irony here -- at all times I was acting solely in the interests of the encyclopedia, and in fact, I was editing against my own POV (which wasn't ever really that strong in the first place, but that "side" is surely where my sympathies lied), yet these arbitrators were too wrapped up or too lazy to recognize that. They simply took the word of the partisans at face value. And that's my biggest disappointment here, that even all the way to the top Wikipedia doesn't get what happened here -- or if they do, they ignored it for the "greater good". Very disappointing. ATren (talk) 12:27, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Warning

If you email Risker one more time I will block you and disable your email account. She's asked you to stop more than once and you haven't. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:31, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I assure you I have no intention of emailing her any more, ever again. Once again my actions are being misrepresented. ATren (talk) 08:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

By the way, for the benefit of my talk page watchers, the emails I sent Risker have NOTHING to do with me or my recent disputes with arbcom over their ridiculous findings. This was regarding an entirely different Wikipedia-related matter, something much more serious. ATren (talk) 08:54, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Don't try the same game with me you tried with her. Reread her responses on her talk page. Last warning. — Rlevse • Talk • 09:57, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

This is not a game, Rlevse, these are serious real life issues here, specifically dealing with editor privacy. But fine, I will not contact you again. ATren (talk) 10:00, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Trying an end run with Jimbo won't work either because you're circulating half truths and rumors. You're on very thin ice here, so stop the forum shopping. If you've got some hard evidence instead of rumors, submit it. Otherwise, let it go. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:29, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change

This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. The following is a summary of the remedies enacted:

• A specially-tailored version of discretionary sanctions is authorized for the entire topic area of climate change. Enforcement requests are to be submitted to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement, which is to replace Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement.
• Experienced administrators, and especially checkusers, are requested to closely monitor new accounts that edit inappropriately in the topic area.
• Within seven days of this remedy passing, all parties must either delete evidence sub-pages or request deletion of them.
• The following editors are banned from the topic area of climate change, and may not appeal this ban until at least six months after the closure of this case (and no more often than every three months thereafter);

• William M. Connolley
• Polargeo
• Thegoodlocust
• Marknutley
• ChrisO
• Minor4th
• ATren
• Hipocrite
• Cla68
• GregJackP
• A Quest For Knowledge
• Verbal
• ZuluPapa5
• JohnWBarber
• FellGleaming

• The following users have accepted binding voluntary topic bans;
  • Scjessey [2]
  • KimDabelsteinPetersen [3]
• The following administrators are explicitly restricted from applying discretionary sanctions as authorized in this case, as is any other administrator fitting the description of an involved administrator;
  • Stephan Schulz
  • Lar

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee,
Dougweller (talk) 18:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Topic ban -- yuk

Well, I'm sorry you got caught up in this, and boy am I glad I didn't. At least some of the worst actors got iced for awhile.

I appreciate your efforts in the climate-change area, and have enjoyed my few interactions with you. Actually, the climate-change pages are in the best shape since I've been around. Civility and collegiality -- even encyclopedicity -- are breaking out all over. So it's an ill wind....

I hope you remain active in the project. It's an interesting and entertaining hobby, so long as one doesn't take it too seriously. Best wishes, Pete Tillman (talk) 05:41, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Pete. The feelings are mutual. I'm actually not sorry about the ban itself (I was ready to exit this area for good) and I take some solace in the fact that the worst elements are removed, but then again it's only temporary. In 6 months it will turn into a mess again, but I really don't care anymore.

I am mainly bitter at the obstinance of some of the arbs. They were all informed of evidence of three things: (1) the absurdity of my finding diffs when taken in context (context which I presented, and they ignored), (2) the fact that at least half a dozen others behaved much worse than me (see JWB's table on the PD talk; he got the same mistreatment as me) and (3) the fact that the committee took no action whatsoever against the admins who let their biases get in the way of enforcement; I presented pretty solid evidence of ridiculously over-the-top behavior by 2/0, TOAT, NuclearWarfare and FPAS, and not only did the arbs ignore it, they were critical of me for merely challenging them. How's that for a slap in the face -- I reveal clear evidence of admin misconduct and they sanction me because I told them to "back off".

That's why I gave myself a "whistleblower's barnstar" - because I still cannot believe how these arbs can look at the evidence I presented against (e.g.) 2/0 and sanction me for questioning him! But you know, in fact, I do know why it happens -- see my response to JWB above about the tendency of well-meaning people to make really bad decisions because they focus too much on the "greater good". They think they're doing what's right, but the net effect is actually the opposite. The fact that this wrongheadedness goes all the way up to the level of arbcom is very disappointing, and it's caused me to lose all respect for the project as a whole.

And frankly, while things may be somewhat calm right now, I have no illusions that this has improved anything, because the admins who helped create this mess are still active. See this section and ask yourself, given his comments on that thread, why NW is still considered "uninvolved" enough to close Tim Ball's BLP as "delete" when it was 14-4 to keep. NW should not be allowed anywhere near a BLP after the way he mishandled the Monckton BLP violations -- and in fact, he's still defending that action [4] in full view of an arb! How can an arb write off NW's handling as a "mistake" when NW is still defending it?! I'll tell you how: because the arb is thinking about the "greater good", not about the project.

But that's the way it is I guess. Wikipedia's wrongheadedness goes all the way to the top. I will not participate much anymore, because honestly this really isn't my thing; I am much better at writing software than articles. :-) And if I'm going to donate my time I'd rather contribute to a worthy open source software project than this place, which, in my view is little more than a political group blog.

OK, rant off. :-) Thanks again for the sentiments, and good luck going forward. ATren (talk) 06:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Man, reading that ArbCom stuff makes my eyes hurt -- that's like going to court, which I had to do not long ago, to oust a bad neighbor who had a trailer parked halfway onto our property. At least you didn't have to hire a lawyer... Best, Pete Tillman (talk) 07:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

That's a nice good silver lining, "at least I didn't have to hire a lawyer". ;-) ATren (talk) 11:04, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I haven't followed the case, but to see editors like yourself, Cla68, and A Quest For Knowledge in this list makes it pretty obvious that ArbCom is a really... blunt instrument. Alex Harvey (talk) 03:39, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Endorsed. This is an example of what ATren described in a essay (now missing?): it is the networkers (i.e. the brown-nosers) who get their POVs represented, and the networkers do not always have good science writing skills. Nor do they seem to understand the necessity of due process. --Michael C. Price ^talk 10:38, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to all for your kind words. Now that I'm out of that mess I don't miss it one bit. That's the irony of this whole thing: I don't care about the topic, never did, and I only stayed at it so long because I thought the actions of certain editors were a blight to the project. Now that I've been forcibly removed, I feel like a burden has been lifted. It took them topic-banning me for me to realize how messed up Wikipedia is, and I now feel it deserves whatever it gets. It reminds me of that parable told by the old Native American guy in Natural Born Killers:

Once upon a time, a woman was picking up firewood. She came upon a poisonous snake frozen in the snow. She took the snake home and nursed it back to health. One day the snake bit her on the cheek. As she lay dying, she asked the snake, "Why have you done this to me?" And the snake answered, "Look, bitch, you knew I was a snake."

In my case, at least it was just a topic ban and not a fatal snake bite. ;-) ATren (talk) 11:17, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Climate change again

I've filed a case at WP:AE asking if something can be done about you, William M. Connolley and Lar (but mainly the latter two) sniping at one another over climate change. It's been a week now and I think we all need to move on. Tasty monster (=TS ) 16:08, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I've moved it to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Topic_banned_editors_needling_one_another for general discussion. --TS 20:20, 21 October 2010 (UTC)