User talk:MastCell

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Citrus aurantium

I'd be grateful if you would allow me to improve this article without interjecting your own biases. I don't know what you have against bitter orange-containing supplements, but I can assure you that I couldn't care less if they all disappeared from the market tomorrow. What I am trying to do (if you'd just leave my stuff alone long enough) is to present an "encyclopedic" article which covers as many aspects of this topic as possible. WP's "Citrus aurantium" article should not focus on one controversial use of the material. It's pretty clear to me that you have not read (or do not have the specialized knowledge required to fully understand) some of the citations which you so staunchly defend or so ardently oppose. It is certainly evident that you have not read widely on this subject, or you would not make statements like "the changes in wording seem to downplay the content/emphasis of reliable sources". What makes you the arbiter of what is or is not a "reliable" source?

Let's take an example of what you consider to be a fair and balanced statement: "Following an incident in which a healthy young man suffered a myocardial infarction (heart attack) linked to bitter orange, a case study found that dietary supplement manufacturers had replaced ephedra with its analogs from bitter orange." How exactly was bitter orange linked to the heart attack? The authors reported what they apparently read on the label of the supplement - they didn't do any chemical analysis of its actual contents, hence my use of the word "ostensibly". Furthermore, the thrust of this publication did not concern the replacement of ephedra by its analogs - a subject on which the authors did not exactly have any objective evidence, nor any professional authority. Indeed, if you really want to be pedantic, "ephedra" is a plant genus including a number of different species, some of which do not contain any of the stereoisomers of ephedrine. Even if you restrict yourself to the specific "Ephedra sinica", which does contain ephedrine isomers (which do not have identical biological properties and are present in varying proportions), how does it equate to "analogs from bitter orange"? Which "analogs"? I'm sure you know what you meant, but your statement isn't exactly a model of clarity and veracity. Xprofj (talk) 18:35, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Let's be clear: the bitter-orange-related heart attack was described here in the medical literature. The authors clearly implicated synephrine: "Although the nutritional supplement in question, Nutrex Lipo-6x, contains a variety of sympathomimetic and stimulant compounds, the most likely culprit for the induction of coronary artery spasm is synephrine, consequent to its structural and pharmacologic similarities to ephedra." You don't get to editorially disparage the published source in the article simply because you personally disagree with its findings. And, in contradiction to your assertion, the journal article does go into detail about the ban on ephedra and its replacement with other related sympathomimetics (see both the introduction and the middle paragraphs of the discussion).

I think that the text I included is a fair and accurate representation of the cited source - which is, after all, our goal as Wikipedia editors. If you prefer more precise wording about ephedra vs. ephedrine, then feel free to propose some such changes. It's probably best to conduct further discussion at Talk:Bitter orange rather than here, so that other interested editors can comment. I've already posted there. MastCell ^Talk 18:55, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I do not believe that the use of the word "ostensibly" constitutes "editorial disparagement". I don't disagree with the findings of this particular paper, I disagree with the biased summary in the WP article that I tried to replace. By the way, thankyou for inviting me to feel free to propose changes to the precise wording re ephedra vs ephedrine. Feel free to be be peremptory in your editing with someone else. If you refer to what I actually wrote to you, above, you'll see that I used the word "thrust" in regard to the content of the paper. Precise terminology is important. Citrus aurantium does not equal "synephrine" does not equal Neo-synephrine does not equal "ephedra analogs". Scientifically, this is gibberish, and what better place to clarify the issues than in an encyclopedia?

Look, I don't want this to turn into a shoving contest, because it wastes time that both of us could be using more profitably elsewhere, and I know my subject too well to back down. You write that you "think" that what you've written is a fair and accurate representation of the original source. Well, what if I "think" otherwise? If you really care about the quality and accuracy of WP articles as much as I do, you should exercise a bit of self-scrutiny, not to mention self-restraint, and ask yourself why you feel so strongly about the subject of Citrus aurantium-containing supplements. What sort of prejudice do you hold against Herbalgram (or, perhaps, Mark Blumenthal, or herbal medication in general)? The Web article I cited was in support of the reference to marmalade, and if you bother to read it, you'll see it has a pretty decent description of the product (of course, you'll probably disagree with my assessment of "pretty decent"). I used this citation, not because I secretly wanted to further the cause of Supplements, but because I felt that as a Web-based source of information about the use of Citrus aurantium in marmalade, it would be easily accessible to most WP readers.

If your agenda is to warn an unsuspecting public about the dangers of Citrus aurantium, I suggest you marshal your evidence fully and properly, and write it down somewhere instead of taking me to task for the use of the word "ostensibly" in regard to a single publication with a particular viewpoint. I'll be glad to summarize it and put it into the appropriate WP article.Xprofj (talk) 20:29, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm certainly not an expert on the pharmacology or toxicology of sympathomimetics; I accept your implication that you know the subject better than I. But I do have some experience with spoken and written English. "Ostensibly" is a word used to communicate the speaker's skepticism about the claim that follows. It's not really appropriate, for instance, to summarize an article about AIDS with: "HIV ostensibly causes AIDS."

I'm sorry I'm coming across as peremptory - really, I apologize. But that's how Wikipedia works. When you contribute here, your writing gets edited, and sometimes completely removed, by other editors - some of whom know less about the subject that you do. It happens to all of us. It can be really annoying. At the same time, people who respond to editing conflicts by asserting their real-life authority and knowledge, or with chest-thumping along the lines of "I know my subject too well to back down", usually don't end up thriving here. It's just not the sort of place where that approach works, for better or worse.

To answer your question, if we disagree about the best way to cover the topic, then we need to try to resolve the dispute via this site's dispute-resolution process. The first step is to discuss the issue and get outside input at the article talk page.

To answer your other questions, I don't hold any prejudice against bitter orange, and I'm not even sure who Mark Blumenthal is. I'm pretty confident that an herbal-industry trade publication isn't the best place to find scholarly, objective information about a dietary supplement. As to "warning an unsuspecting public", I think it's enough to honestly and accurately present the current understanding of the safety and efficacy of specific dietary supplements - without trying to put our thumbs on the scale with words like "ostensibly". That's our job, and if we do it well, then the reader can draw their own conclusions. MastCell ^Talk 22:42, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Belchfile

I left a note on my talk page, but wanted to ping you personally. Belchfire got an indef for continuing to sock, yet again. And a CU block at that, so no non-CU will be reviewing it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:25, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. I can't say I'm surprised, but I do wish we'd cut the cord sooner - like maybe around his 4th or 5th block for partisan edit-warring. The drain on time and goodwill that these sorts of editors cause is really disappointing. I wish we had a more effective approach to the problem of tendentious, ideologically driven editing. Dealing with these sorts of folks is as responsible as any one factor for our failure to retain good editors, and for the process of disillusionment and cynicism that turns once-polite and effective editors into burnt-out, snippy grouches. MastCell ^Talk 16:49, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

On conflict of interest

Hey. Just a few comments with respect to User_talk:SlimVirgin#Thanks. Yes it's absurd that PR guys could suggest changes to an article in a serious encyclopedia, but I think it's a good idea to point out a lot of what happens in wikipedia would be absurd in a serious encyclopedia. I think we can agree that in principle a paid PR person either has a COI issue, and sometimes are paid to POV push. But we have plenty of editors here who are perfectly happy to POV push for free.

We've had true believers pushing material in innumerable articles. It would be absurd for professional astrologers to edit the astrology articles (particular the scientific criticism), dowsers edit the dowsing articles, etc etc, but this happens in wikipedia. They argue criticism from the article and it's not even contentious that they do it; in fact most editors would consider it rude to point out in a discussion that the person is an astrologer, dowser etc. We've also had a scientifically illiterate climate denialist skewing the Hurricane Sandy article during the Hurricane (just look at the "This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:" part on the talk page). The Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster got skewed and is still skewed as a result of the anti-nuclear editors (who seem particularly strong on wikipedia). There are tons of examples like this; these pushes are invariably very public high volume articles, and very embarrassing for wikipedia's credibility. None of these things would happen in a serious encyclopedia, but they do here. We have to live with the fact that people who have serious issues disconnecting their private beliefs from what is most prevalent in the most reliable sources edit wikipedia, and no one opposes it because those editors aren't paid. Wikipedia will never be perfect, it will always reflect these sorts of POV to some degree since anyone can edit.

At least with paid editors who've declared a COI, they keep their hands off the articles, and other editors use their judgement; if an editor has no judgement they face the consequences. I suppose an analogous argument would be, if a regular editor had found BP's material on their website (and not given on the talk page) under the GFDL and CC-by-SA and fully sourced, would you consider anything improper to have happened if they decided to incorporated it in (perhaps this misses some of the subtleties of the arguments). I don't think it's ideal to have paid editors, but I think wikipedia has much more serious issues with different editors who are here to push a POV pro bono. IRWolfie- (talk) 19:01, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I take your point, but I see what you're describing as a false dichotomy. We can be concerned with both amateur POV-pushers and corporate PR efforts. The existence of one doesn't mandate that we ignore the other. (Apologies if I'm over-simplifying your point). I actually view the corporate PR efforts as a greater concern than "amateur" agenda-driven editing, precisely because most Wikipedians don't view the former as a problem and are thus unequipped to address it.

Think about the last few major POV-pushing cases that reached ArbCom (WP:ARBCC, the Abortion case, etc.) - they ended with topic bans for at least some of the POV-pushers. Now look at the last COI issue to reach ArbCom: the Transcendental Meditation case. Remarkably, that case ended up giving a conflicted editor free reign to edit articles in the area of conflict, and permabanned the individual who attempted to address the COI.

I agree we do a piss-poor job of dealing with agenda-driven editing, but I at least have faith that amateur POV-pushers will be handled if one invests the time to bring the situation before a group with a sufficiently high clue level. On the other hand, I have zero confidence that true conflicts of interest, paid editing, or corporate PR influence will be addressed effectively by any of Wikipedia's mechanisms, including ArbCom.

To your last point, I do see a big difference between a freelance editor who happened across material on a BP website and a corporate PR group providing us with material. It's the difference between a physician scouring the medical literature under his/her own initiative, vs. a physician being presented with a pre-selected set of journal articles by a drug rep. These things do matter when it comes to credibility. I get that Wikipedia is different because of our open-editing model, but to me that only makes it even more imperative to think seriously about handling these sorts of conflicts of interest. MastCell ^Talk 19:42, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Wow, the transcendental mediation case is a complete joke. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:21, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

There's a pretty terrific statement posted at 11:34, 29 December 2011 (UTC) on the workshop of the TimidGuy ban appeal. It's pretty emblematic of a lot of the ways certain Arbitrators approach editing, both then and now. Not all of them, but unfortunately, not just the author of that statement. NW (Talk) 20:49, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Arbs could learn a good lesson from the Timidguy case if they took the time to examine Transcendental Meditation articles now, a year after the case closed. Maharishi_University_of_Management students and faculty have systematically collaborated to extol the TM movement and remove nearly all critical material. John_Hagelin's hagiographic article was rubber-stamped through GA late last year. I have no inclination to touch those articles because people who edit the topic critically get reprimanded and banned. Skinwalker (talk) 23:38, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I think a discussion needs to be held somewhere about the issue of whistleblowing on Wikipedia. What is a Wikipedian supposed to do when they find a serious conflict of interest? We're not allowed to out people onwiki (and I support that), we're not allowed to link to material that might out them (I support that too, but it currently means I can't link to an article in which BP named the BP editor, so it certainly creates a chill), and there's a strong sense from certain editors that we shouldn't even be looking into certain cases. Will was banned after emailing Jimbo with concerns. A member of the ArbCom at the time almost seemed to try to threaten Doc James because Will and Doc had exchanged emails about it. [1] [2] [3] Here yesterday a member of the ArbCom said we shouldn't "bully" the BP editor.

Responsible whistleblowing is increasingly encouraged and respected in the real world, so Wikipedia is very out-of-step. Where there's a demonstrable public-interest issue, rather than some internal Wikipedia spat, editors really shouldn't feel threatened by the ArbCom. How we do encourage editors to feel able to speak out about COI when the issue is clearly serious enough? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:09, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, because of my growing concerns, only a few weeks ago I again raised the issue of paid editors with an editor that I thought was sympathetic to the concerns over paid editing and it all ended up with him asking me to delete any reference to our discussion from my talk page and he deleted the discussion from his page as well. I am not suggesting a conspiracy here--it seems he was embarrassed because he thought that he had responded--but never the less it was a very strange experience. In any big corporation, which is what Wikipedia has become, the upper levels just totally loose track of reality and people of all levels just do not like to rock the boat. As MastCell and NW know, I was just devastated when arbcom almost decided that I was not fit to work on some women's articles. That is when I realized that some of the editors that have been promoted to the top positions here are really out of touch with what it's like in the trenches, and Risker certainly made that fact apparent in her/his comments on the BP talk page. And then I was just absolutely floored to read of the fantasy land that Ocaasi lives in. Your "whistle blower" idea is perfect--I know I looked many times for a place to go and nothing was there for me. WP must realize that we have gotten so big that little people, like me, are getting lost in the maze of policies that have been created to keep up with changing times and our increased growth and importance to the larger world of information Unfortunately, on the other hand, these same guidelines that were created with good intentions have further isolated many editors from a way to take part in what attracted us/me to this site in the first place: a people's encyclopedia. I guess? :-)Gandydancer (talk) 01:20, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Our article on Transcendental Meditation research now states "TM improves cardiovascular function in the elderly and slows the aging process". It is mostly a bunch of cherry picked quotes from the literature promoting the practice. Independent sources are not given greater weight than ones written by the faculty of MUM and the practitioners of TM. AHRQ and Cochrane are not given greater weight than the "Journal of Integrative Cardiology". Arbcom has failed. Anyway have tried to restore the content at Transcendental Meditation that was supported by the last RfC. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:57, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

• @NW Two comments were made @ 11:34, and to me both are problematic. It is worrying that Arbs view "not found health benefits" as grudging negative terms, and view "found comparable benefits" as neutral (to me that would be the opposite, it makes confirming the null hypothesis look like a positive result). Did anyone ever find out what "When editing articles such as this, do you do so primarily from the perspective of a physician?" meant?

These transcendental medicine articles clearly also violate WP:FRINGE on multiple accounts. What sort of stuff were the arbs smoking to explain away the evidence, some of which is damning? The guy looks like he is trying to appear unbiased, but he fails horribly. When someone has a conflict of interest, they can't see their own bias. You need outsiders to judge it. Here is something I just came across which is clearly problematic since it tries to give it more scientific legitimacy:[4]. IRWolfie- (talk) 19:32, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes and Will Beback managed to keep this sort of promotional / advertising copy to a minimum. Since he has been blocked all the articles now read more or less like a press release for the organization in question.

Wikipedia has become an advertising platform for a "new religious movements" which is attempting to portray itself as a science. And after considerable concerted effort a number of us have been able to do little about this. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:08, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

What Roger Davies meant was entirely apparent - he meant that he seriously considers a physician to have a "conflict of interest" in editing a medical article, by virtue of, I dunno, actually knowing something about medicine (there was some off-wiki follow-up which I'm not going to quote here, but which underlined that interpretation of his comments in the case). And yes, Roger's idea of "grudging negative terms" is curious, to say the least. But this is where ArbCom stands on the subject. They see a real COI concern in the idea of a physician editing a medical article, but they don't have any problem with the BP public-relations team editing the BP article. MastCell ^Talk 22:17, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Recently Roger Davies said that one of the arbitrators at the time of the case was a physician. On the TimidGuy workshop page Jclemens wrote, "I am, to the best of my knowledge, the only arbitrator who's actually had formal education in evidence-based medicine." So presumably Jclemens is that "expert physician." Does Jclemens have the medical expertise comparable to that of a fully qualified doctor? Mathsci (talk) 10:10, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

There was one "expert physician" on arbcom that I know of and he opposed the banning of Will Beback. Roger Davies could be using the term "physician" liberally to mean Jclemens as he does state he is a physician assistant. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:39, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Casliber pointed out the error in Jclemens' statement at the time with an "ahem". Mathsci (talk) 12:32, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Cas is a physician. I'm assuming that's whom Roger had in mind. MastCell ^Talk 16:13, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Are you sure that Jclemens is a PA? It seems to me that I remember that he is a volunteer fireman and as such may have taken an EMT course. Gandydancer (talk) 17:25, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

It's in one of his userboxes (PA-C). Mathsci (talk) 17:46, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

In case anyone here wants to comment, there's an informal RfC at User:Jmh649/Will Beback to discuss whether Will should be allowed back to edit. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:31, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I saw that, but I'm not sure it's a good use of effort. No matter the outcome of the quasi-RfC, Will can only be un-banned by the Committee. Even in the unlikely event that the informal RfC demonstrated unanimous support to un-ban Will, ArbCom would likely dismiss it with the argument that participation was skewed in Will's favor.

That case has really puzzled and troubled me from the time it was decided, and not just because of the ignorant approach to conflicts of interest. The degree of venom expressed toward Will by several arbitrators (most notably, but not exclusively, by Jclemens) was so far out of proportion to his actual purported misdeeds that it didn't quite add up. Of course, there was substantial off-wiki evidence to which I'm not privy, so perhaps something in that evidence explained it... but still. We've treated far worse editors far better than Will was treated. Something about the case still doesn't quite add up. MastCell ^Talk 18:36, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

"so perhaps something in that evidence explained it" – it doesn't. I have read it and I have asked arbitrators who decided that case to explain their view of things to me. I still don't see it. NW (Talk) 20:35, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Reading over those case pages is like going back down the rabbit hole into Bizarro Wikipedia. Like, here I happened to notice that a group of pro-TM single-purpose accounts bloc-voted against James' RfA, and that many of these accounts apparently shared overlapping IP addresses. That seems sort of like a reasonable justification for some of Will's concerns, but at that point there was clearly nothing that was going to change anyone's mind about anything. MastCell ^Talk 20:46, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

At least some of the venom came from WBB's interactions with PumpkinSky/Rlevse. Around the time the TimidGuy case was closing, Rlevse was trying to get unblocked. WBB apparently told Rlevse off-wiki that he would reveal his practice of sockpuppetry and/or vote-stacking requests for adminship - while he was a bureaucrat and arbitrator - if he persisted in asking to be unblocked. Risker and Jclemens alluded to this in post-case comments, and this is why Pumpkinsky has been accusing WBB of blackmail. Skinwalker (talk) 16:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

BP

Hi MastCell, I appreciate your contributions to the discussion of BP and COI editing over on Jimbo's talk page. I replied to some of your remarks and would be interested in your further thoughts, either there or at another suitable venue of your choice. Thanks, alanyst 19:35, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the note; I responded at the bottom of User talk:Jimbo Wales#Break. MastCell ^Talk 20:57, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Wetback Edit War

I wanted to thank you for actually answering my questions on the Talk page of Wetback (slur) regarding my edits. It's really sad that other people would rather just bully and throw their weight around than actually take a moment to explain something to someone who not only wants but asks for a discussion. It diffused an ugly situation.Shelbystripes (talk) 22:06, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

No problem. Good luck and happy editing. MastCell ^Talk 22:59, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Reminds me...

A quack said you were David Gorski. I guess you're not, but that is high praise, in my book. Guy (Help!) 01:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, I make it a point not to comment one way or the other on speculation about my IRL identity. But that would indeed be high praise. Besides, if a quack said it on the Internet, it's probably... true? :P MastCell ^Talk 04:25, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

And...I heard from a bird that you were David Cellski, a Bay Area rapper and music producer. ```Buster Seven Talk 05:24, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Actually I think you're a better writer than Gorski, tbh. Much less prone to rambling :) Guettarda (talk) 06:06, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Reliability of Wikipedia

Thanks for your edit of Reliability of Wikipedia regarding liberal bias. I agree that opinions by commentators should be mentioned, but the article should not give the impression that there is evidence to support the liberal bias claim as long as there is little or no evidence from reliable sources. Regards --Erik den yngre (talk) 14:57, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Guidance

Hello, MastCell. You probably recall helping out an editor a couple days ago by getting his agreement to pursue his concerns "on the relevant talkpages and noticeboards rather than through edit-warring going forward". He has indeed been pursuing his concerns on the article's talkpage which is commendable (continuing to advocate the removal of "anti-immigration" from the TPM article), but he reverted twice more in the last 24+ hours or so (1st, 2nd) for a cumulative total of nine times. Would you mind reminding him about that agreement? If the advice comes from me, I suspect it will be unwelcome. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 00:12, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Disingenuous quote

MastCell, in a recent discussion you inserted a quote box that artificially, and I believe disingenuously, compressed my statements, eliminating anything that does not support your erroneous premise that what I wrote is racist.

For the record, here is what I wrote:

This article (Criminal black man stereotype) fails adequately to address some unfortunate realities.

I and other family members have been the victims of violent crime on a number of occasions--both on the street and in our homes. On each and every one of these occasions, the perpetrators of the violent crimes (armed robbery, felonious assualt, criminal trespass, assault with a deadly weapon, rape) have been black males. When I look at the statistics for violent crime in ANY large American city, black males outnumber any other group as perpetrators of violent crime; this disparity becomes even more striking when one looks at the percentage of violent crimes committed as compared to the percentage of black males in the population of those cities.

The "criminal black man stereotype" exists, not for historical reasons, and not because of racial prejudice, but because black males commit a disproportionaate number of violent crimes--in other words the stereotype is NOT wrong. In the private sphere, I am committed to judging all individuals based on what I can learn of their characters; in the public sphere (on the street, for example) I do not have the time or ability to discern character, therefore I cannot afford to give unknown black males the benefit of the doubt.

If black males wish not to be stereotyped as violent criminals, they must not commit violent crimes themselves; they must abandon the personal power afforded them by mimicing the dress, demeanor and speech of black criminals; and they must speak out against, and otherwise ostracize, black men who exhibit violent criminal behavior.

It is not up to those of us who have been victimized by violent black criminals to abandon our well-founded "criminal black man stereotype" AHEAD of actual changes in behavior among black men. Often this is a matter of preserving life, limb and integrity, especially in the public sphere. I acknowledge that the stereotype is a tragedy for black men who are not violent criminals, which is thoroughly regrettable. Perhaps non-criminal black men should emulate asian men, whose stereotype is one of studious reflection and harmlessness--a stereotype that can be just as misleading when it comes to individual behavior.

It might be accurate to call me a pragmatist when it comes to considerations of race. It is not accurate to call me a racist, and in fact my own heritage is multiracial.

I would appreciate some remedial action on your part in this unfortunate incident. Apostle12 (talk) 20:26, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't know you, so I have no idea whether or not you're racist. I do know that you've made statements on Wikipedia - including the one you've repeated above - expressing what I consider to be racist views. As to compressing your statement, I linked it via diff in my post so that anyone interested could read the whole thing. I actually left out what I think were the worst parts - for instance, where you said that the criminal-black-man stereotype exists "not because of racial prejudice, but because black males commit a disproportionaate number of violent crimes—in other words the stereotype is NOT wrong." I don't have anything else to say to you, and I'd prefer to have as little to do with you as possible. MastCell ^Talk 22:00, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

If you are susceptible to statistics I would suggest this [5]. Read the last half first, since the stats are there. There is no pervasive racism in modern US crime conviction, sentencing, or time served. One cannot explain all disparity by racism in policing and indictment, since if these had racism of gigantic enough proportion to explain conviction rate differences it is impossible to believe that racism this systemic and this virulent evaporates when it hits the courtroom door. Do you believe that? SBHarris 00:53, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm susceptible to statistics, but I'm also aware of their potential for misuse. So I'm not quite prepared to accept a single single op-ed piece from 1996 as the definitive answer to the complex question of racial sentencing disparities. Is there some reason you've chosen that piece and avoided anything published in the last 17 years? Here's why it matters: in 2005, the Supreme Court struck down federal sentencing guidelines in United States v. Booker. That decision restored a substantial degree of judicial discretion in sentencing. Follow-up studies demonstrate pretty clearly that since Booker, African-American defendants are sentenced to approximately 20% more prison time than white convicted of similar crimes (e.g. [6], [7]). So when you state that there is "no pervasive racism in modern US sentencing", I'm left to wonder: are you susceptible to statistics? MastCell ^Talk 03:09, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Sure, show me a study that finds a racial bias with proper controls and I'll be glad to cry racism. Though even if a 20% sentence disparity is real it hardly suggests that a 900% homicide differential is due to the same bias problem. Anyway the problem with sentencing mandatory guides is that you got the same sentence for having a kilo of coke whether it was your first offense or your tenth. That should matter. Was that controlled for in the studies you cite? No. They're no good without it. SBHarris 03:45, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Ah. So you presented a 1996 newspaper op-ed as definitive, but now that I've provided links to detailed and up-to-date statistical analysis you've suddenly gotten very demanding about methodology and control groups? The latest U.S. Sentencing Commission report is here. Part E discusses demographic disparities in sentencing. Their methodology is described in detail here. Knock yourself out. MastCell ^Talk 04:03, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

As the source provided by Sbharris points out, the fact that young American black males commit a disproportionate number of violent crimes is real enough. And even with overall violent crime rates dropping (the source is rather dated) this disproportionality continues. I do not think it is right to stereotype black men as criminals, however if the "criminal black man stereotype" is to be overcome I believe efforts to do so will need to originate with black men themselves. I defend my original statement:

"If black males wish not to be stereotyped as violent criminals, they must not commit violent crimes themselves; they must abandon the personal power afforded them by mimicing the dress, demeanor and speech of black criminals; and they must speak out against, and otherwise ostracize, black men who exhibit violent criminal behavior."

Apostle12 (talk) 01:47, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

That was the idea with the Nation of Islam dress code back in the early 60s , where the had young black men dressing like IBM salesmen. Who fears that?

We need to remember that 80% of crime against US black people is committed by young black men. Which is why the National Black Caucus has been in favor of all those laws decried by "white liberals" as racist. Black people know very well who they are being mugged, raped, beaten, burgled and shot by. They have eyes and are not stupid. They do not appreciate white liberals telling them that their own direct experience is wrong, and that the entire idea is some complicated stereotype perpetuated by skinheads, and actually has no more truth in it than the idea of bad women drivers. They know better. I've lived in Long Beach (where just incidentally I was mugged by two black men) and near Compton. I practiced medicine in LA and saw what came through the ED doors. And let me tell you, it surely wasn't black people who said they'd been assaulted by IBM salesmen. God knows where MastCell is from. Canada maybe. Or Mars. SBHarris 03:09, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

MastCell, in the discussion above you've shown you have very strong personal opinions about how race-based statistics are interpreted. I also know you have blocked several editors under the race and intelligence arbitration case, and all of the editors you blocked were those who held opinions you disapproved of. Last summer there was a declined arbitration request where one of them claimed you were violating WP:INVOLVED by doing that. Do you consider it appropriate use your administrator powers as part of your opposing of editors who you consider "racist"? Akuri (talk) 17:59, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

It's difficult to respond to your post, because I think virtually every one of its sentences stretches reality or the truth in some significant way. I'm comfortable that I haven't used my administrative tools inappropriately. If you'd like to discuss a specific block, then I'll do so, as long as it seems to be part of a serious, productive accountability process rather than a frivolous wiki-legal timesink. MastCell ^Talk 18:17, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Your response shows me you are not likely to change your actions or admit you've made any mistakes, so there's no benefit discussing it here. I'll just leave it that I think it's a problem that you try to fight "racism" both in these disputes and with your admin powers, and your response does not reassure me. Akuri (talk) 18:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I'm more comfortable admitting my mistakes than the average Wikipedia admin - admittedly, a very low bar. :P In general, administrative actions in the race/intelligence sphere are among the most heavily scrutinized on Wikipedia, thanks in large part to the capacity of certain editors and their proxies for frivolous wiki-litigation. Given that level of scrutiny, I'm not aware of any of my administrative actions which have been identified as inappropriate, and you've declined to specify any. So I'm not sure what I'm expected to confess to here. MastCell ^Talk 18:43, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Unless I missed some, of the nine race and intelligence related arbitration requests there have been in the past year, there was only one that named you as a party. If that's all there was, I think you've been under less scrutiny than the other admins whose actions in this area have been questioned. Anyway, there is no need to analyze this now. I'm just trying to get a feel for the issues surrounding this topic and the various admins involved in it. Akuri (talk) 19:00, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, of course. I'm sure it's a lot of work to familiarize yourself with all of those ArbCom requests, enforcement actions, noticeboard threads, and other arcane wikidrama. I mean, you're a new user - it's not like you participated in these disputes under another account name in the past or anything, right? MastCell ^Talk 22:21, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Before I registered, I participated in race and intelligence articles for about a year as IPs. But it's only after Future Perfect at Sunrise blocked my IP range, and refused to justify the block when other editors challenged him about it, that I decided I have to familiarise myself with the arbitration case if I want to participate. Knowledge is power, and anyone who doesn't have the knowledge won't be able to defend themselves when they're abused. 101.0.79.8 (talk) 23:39, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

(This is Akuri posting while logged out.)

Disproportionate rates of violent crime among young black men

A truly excellent article that addresses the violent crime disparity in a productive way:

http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/Faculty/Forman_RacialCritiques.pdf?pagewanted=all

Here are the crime data that the Times doesn’t want its readers to know: blacks committed 66 percent of all violent crimes in the first half of 2009 (though they were only 55 percent of all stops and only 23 percent of the city’s population). Blacks committed 80 percent of all shootings in the first half of 2009. Together, blacks and Hispanics committed 98 percent of all shootings. Blacks committed nearly 70 percent of all robberies. Whites, by contrast, committed 5 percent of all violent crimes in the first half of 2009, though they are 35 percent of the city’s population (and were 10 percent of all stops). They committed 1.8 percent of all shootings and less than 5 percent of all robberies. The face of violent crime in New York, in other words, like in every other large American city, is almost exclusively black and brown. Any given violent crime is 13 times more likely to be committed by a black than by a white perpetrator—a fact that would have been useful to include in the Times’s lead, which stated that “Blacks and Latinos were nine times as likely as whites to be stopped.” These crime data are not some artifact that the police devise out of their skewed racial mindset. They are what the victims of those crimes—the vast majority of whom are minority themselves—report to the police.

http://www.city-journal.org/2010/eon0514hm.html

Based on FBI Uniform Crime Report arrest data from 1960 to 2000 in 80 of the largest U.S. cities, the researchers found that bewteen 1960-1979 the gap between black and white homicide arrests dropped 55 percent, on average. Between 1980-1999 the gap re-widened -- on average more than 20 percent -- with the explosive growth of the crack cocaine epidemic in major U.S. cities. By the end of the century, nearly 30 percent of the largest U.S. cities had black homicide arrests rates that were more than 10 times higher than white rates.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100308132050.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/03/12/young-black-and-male-in-america/you-cant-blame-the-police — Preceding unsigned comment added by Apostle12 (talk • contribs)

I know this may be difficult for you to believe, but I actually don't want my talkpage plastered with arguments about how African-Americans and Hispanics are prone to violent crime. I'm not big on "banning" people from my talkpage, but I really have nothing further to say to you. MastCell ^Talk 05:41, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry. I knew you didn't want to talk to me, so I was responding to what I thought was your request for better sourcing during your discussion with sbharris. I will stand down. Apostle12 (talk) 05:52, 9 April 2013 (UTC)