[[File:Ambox notice.svg|link=|25px|alt=Information icon]] There is currently a discussion at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. <!--Template:ANI-notice--> Since noone notified you I'm doing it, even though I didn't start the thread there. - '''Tom''' | [[User:Thomas.W|Thomas.W]] [[User talk:Thomas.W|'''''<sup><small> talk</small></sup>''''']] 17:53, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
[[File:Ambox notice.svg|link=|25px|alt=Information icon]] There is currently a discussion at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. <!--Template:ANI-notice--> Since noone notified you I'm doing it, even though I didn't start the thread there. - '''Tom''' | [[User:Thomas.W|Thomas.W]] [[User talk:Thomas.W|'''''<sup><small> talk</small></sup>''''']] 17:53, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
== Stop it ==
Next stop is WP:AE where I will press for a topic ban. Final warning. [[User:Khirurg|Khirurg]] ([[User talk:Khirurg|talk]]) 17:55, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
Revision as of 17:55, 21 September 2017
Welcome!
Hello, Resnjari, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:
I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{help me}} before the question. Again, welcome!
Thanks
Thanks, Resnjari! If/when you do it, please let me know :)
WhisperToMe (talk) 11:50, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Before I list what I need translated, what is the language you will be translating the articles into? WhisperToMe (talk) 12:48, 8 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the help + sources for population figures
Dear Resnjari, thank you very much for your help in the page about Albanians and for the sources. Your help is highly appreciated. Let me know if there is anything I can help with. Have a good day :) --SilentResident (talk) 08:40, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Kosova me unesco
o shqipe a keni me ndru emrat ne unesco per kosoven??? Internationel00 (talk) 17:13, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'll get to that. The decision for Kosovo being admitted into UNESCO is fresh, it will be updatied over the following days anyway. News outlets are reporting on it as we speak so it has to enter the public forum. Probably best non-Albanian editors does the change to that. Give it a week. If its not changed then there will be the UNESCO source itself for it to do a change.Resnjari (talk) 18:36, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I followed up on that. They got through the first round. In Novemeber, they will have a final vote. Actually its best it gets changed when that occurs so there can be no doubt and no edit warring headaches. At the moment refrain from doing any changes. Its only a few weeks anyway.Resnjari (talk) 18:42, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Enjoy after the great work...
I know you like Bakllava.
For the tremendous work in terms of quality, quantity, and importance - thanks ! Mondiad (talk) 03:59, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Mondiad: Thank you ! It goes down well with some boza alongside. :-)
A barnstar for you!
The Brilliant Idea Barnstar
For your brilliant ideas and awesome mind in making this place a great one! MorenaReka (talk) 17:15, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Uprising of Lumë
Hi,
User:Albanian Historian has created the article about the Uprising of Lumë or Battle of Lumë of 1912. I started just copyediting it, but I got more an more involved since it came out a very interesting article. But it was translated from Alb Wikipedia correspondent article and other sources, so it faces the usual problems. This event is constantly neglected from the Alb historiography for some reason. Can you check for more sources? I will probably ask Zoupan to have a look later and bring sources from the other side, if he doesn't get it already by then. If you're busy, no worries. :)
--Mondiad (talk) 04:56, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
@Mondiad:. I did a search for sources and there a few more i need to do (i check for Serbian language ones. Its does not even come up there. I tried words like Ljuma and> bitka, ustanak etc and in their Cyrillic form and nothing came up. I placed a good source for you in the article and its whole inline. Do with it as you wish to tag various sentences to that source and its in line. I do have some backlogs that i need to take care of. i will get to the article as soon as i can. Best.19:19, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Albanian Historian:. Don't take this the wrong way brother, but some things i need to say or going going to run into multiple headaches and issues. If its repeated, you may be referred by other editors to arbitration like forums for a sanction. I prefer you do not end up in these situations, so bear with me with the comments i make. I make them so your important and much appreciated input continues, though meeting the requirements of Wikipedia policy. I wanted to say to you that your edits in certain articles are a bit problematic. You have used Albanian sites in the past that do not meet wp:reliable and wp:secondary. I know that some of these websites do publish academic articles which they have copied and pasted from Albanian academic sources (most often without the publication's or scholar's permission or knowledge). If you are going to use one of these articles, do a google web search (and or through google scholar and google books) to find out and or locate where originally they were published and cite that article or scholarly work by using its original academic citation (so and so journal or so and so book chapter in a edited book by so and so scholar etc). Otherwise your content will be removed, articles deleted at times and allegations from the usual editors (they are a small group, but you know who they are) of "Albanian POV". You also in that instance create a lot of work for other editors to come and clean up and these increases the work load for the very few Albanian editors that are active on English Wikipedia. Anyway, I will cite examples of edits by you in the article about Balkan wars massacres of Albanians [1]. You cite Leo Freundlich. He is a good source as he chronicled massacres and so on. However his works in the end constitute wp:primary and more than likely will be removed. Wikipedia accepts overall wp:secondary material as scholars have done an analysis and synthesis of the primary documentation and have judged the material to be wp:reliable for use in their works. It is these works who cite the primary sources like Freundlich that you use in a article. I will cite for you a example to see. For example i used Mark Levene (2013). Devastation: Volume I: The European Rimlands 1912-1938. Oxford University Press [2] for the Battle of Lumë which make the edits and accompanying edits stick about such issues like massacres. Also do a google search and in scholar ans books to come across such sources to expand and make the article watertight. I would say also to avoid(when the moment and context calls for it) using Albanian sources if an issue/article is controversial and try to find non-Albanian scholarly sources that say roughly the same thing as the non scholarly source. This will assist your position about and deflect the usual accusations of bias directed toward Albanian editors in general. I hope this was of some assistance and keep the good work up !Resnjari (talk) 03:31, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Roudometof
Hey, can you quickly verify that the "no evidence of state persecution" part in Roudometof's book actually exists? Because for some reason it doesn't show up in Google books. And also, what's the context? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 11:58, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'll look into it and i have the source. Anyway an important thing to note is that Roudementof's claim (in 2002, based not on the Greek state archive i might add) though is obsolete due to Baltsiotis in depth research of the Greek archive in his 2011 study.Resnjari (talk) 03:00, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Cham Expulsion lede
Please ping me once you've drafted the new lede. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 17:35, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Kazandibi
Kazandibi
Although I mostly disagree with your viewpoints I offer you a small sign of appreciation. Gëzuar. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:48, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Talkback
Hello, Resnjari. You have new messages at Oranges Juicy's talk page. Message added 10:48, 31 July 2016 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.[reply]
Feel free to leave any posts there on the things you and I personally discuss. The last thing we need to do is create TLDR for others on a legit talk page with our forum-like posts! :) OJ (talk) 10:48, 31 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Its all good LouisAragon! Anytime. Surprised that it was a sock of Steverci though. Best.Resnjari (talk) 07:06, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Talkback
Hello, Resnjari. You have new messages at Oranges Juicy's talk page. Message added 10:34, 6 August 2016 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.[reply]
Long again (sorry!) - but I think I've covered everything pretty much. :) OJ (talk) 10:34, 6 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Reported
Actually I just realized you broke 3RR at Konitsa. Reported here [3]. Athenean (talk) 08:19, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there, would you be of assistance on the Turkish people article? I have worked really hard to find as many sources as possible for the infobox. But I have continuously been reverted and nobody is having a discussion with me to solve the dispute. What should I do? One of the users has threatened to block me. But I just wanted to correct the figures because they are all distorted. This is what they keep reverting it to [5] and this is my edits [6]. O.celebi (talk) 08:48, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also, it seems another user "Ugud" has joined User "Athenean" in completely vandalising articles including Kouloughlis and Turks in the Arab world. I'd really appreciate it if you can guide me on where I should report this.O.celebi (talk) 08:58, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi O.celebi. I had a look at the edits done by you. The first editor who objected to those edits did so on a reliability of sources reason. The second gave barely any reason. Make sure you do not surpass the 3 revert rule (see: WP:EW) first off as you may be reported and up for discretionary sanctions. No need to have a block blemish on ones Wikipedia account. Apart from this, engage the editors within the talkpage in good faith and always have the sources guide discussion. Make sure the scholarship you have used is WP:reliable and wp:secondary as sometimes certain scholars may be compromised for a variety of reasons. If an impasse continues, then your port of call would probably be the reliable sources noticeboard as the issue is about reliability of scholars and their work in this instance. I hope this helps. Best.Resnjari (talk) 09:22, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your reply. As a Masters graduate from a very respected university, I do believe that I am capable of producing reliable citations. Indeed, I have given various different sources and it has all been removed. Ironically, some of these citations (which they object to using) are incorrectly used in the current version. I am quite shocked at the response that my edits have caused. The current version is clearly a mess and is dominated by users who do not seem to have good objectives. Unfortunately it seems that neither of these users are willing to even discuss the matter. I do not want to be blocked but at the same time I feel that my knowledge and qualifications will be wasted here on Wikipedia. O.celebi (talk) 11:04, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi O.celebi. Regarding the demographics bit, the editor who replied has a point as some of some of the sources date back from the 1990s and 2000s. You can use those for the Demographics of Turkey article which looks at Turkish demographics from a historical view. I forgot to say yesterday that for demographics related stuff on the Turkish people article, try to locate the most recent publications on certain demographics and look for scholars who whatever is their background/ethnicity have published in peer reviewed publications. Like for me i have access to some number of Albanian scholarship, however for contentious stuff i try to avoid using Albanian scholars and if i do i make sure they have published in Western publications or have their works published thorough a Western based publishing house. This is so as it avoids a lot of unnecessary chit chat on a talkpage about reliability of a source/scholar etc as they have been vetted by a Western source as being reliable. I now how this sounds but is how scholarship is done these days (Edward Said discussed this at length in his book Orientalism). Its good that you have a tertiary background and we need more people like you to edit Wikipedia. Good content and expertise make for better articles in the end. Best.Resnjari (talk) 06:28, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is great to see that there is someone here who actually understands the concept of Orientalism! I am shocked that this racist concept is being practiced here on Wikipedia. So it seems there is no point in using Arabic sources either? A precedent on using only Western sources seem absurd considering many of these academics have probably not even set foot into the Middle East. O.celebi (talk) 09:23, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
O.celebi, part of my honours thesis touched on orientalism + Gramsci's work on socio-cultural and linguistic hegemony. When Said wrote his analysis, things have moved on somewhat as scholars from the outside have gone to places themselves and a majority now are not armchair types, thank goodness. I probably should have clarified what i meant in regard to Orientalism. Said mentioned that people who come from a Middle eastern/Muslim (or areas formally colonised by the West) background engage in knowledge production for the agendas of others in the centres around the world based in the West, as that is where power (political/economic etc) resides today. Knowledge, its uses and power serve a particular geography/country/people for the aims and intentions not of the scholar who comes from that particular people/locality (and acts as a conduit/informant for others) that that knowledge is being undertaken about. With that in mind my comment in essence was that for a scholar to be viewed as "reliable", etc, he/she would have to have gone through the process of having their work published in something based in Western countries were educational institutions carry a legitimacy above other educational places around the world. So say i use something published in Albania, its usage would be more contested (doesn't mean it wont go into Wikipedia, it just means that i have to spend more time explaining/justifying it) then say if that same scholar published in a Western publishing house or journal etc which gives them the aura of "reliability". By using the latter you avoid more of the complicated discussions about whether a scholar is reliable, etc.
However we also have to keep in mind that some scholarship in say Albania and Turkey is compromised due to government interference, so some scholars need to be double checked that they have no skeletons in the closet (just like a few scholars from the West also get such scrutiny). I know what i say sucks and even the Wikipedia community is aware of this (see: WP:BIAS). I say all of this because i have seen many a editor crash and burn (there are so few Albanian editors around, and even Turkish ones for that matter) and i hope by imparting this advice that the editing process can be made somewhat more durable for you. Otherwise you will become disillusioned after heated exchanges with certain experienced editors as so many have and then some have resorted to edit warring, others to name calling, others even worse to sock-puppeting (see: WP:SOSP). That is unnecessary and in fact they did a disservice by giving a pretext for others to remove them on technicalities. Only the sources should guide discussion (and if needed invoking wiki policy on sources etc), no need to involve other things of ones personal self or others, unless they do so themselves (and then ask them to kindly refrain from doing that). If any personal attack occurs that can go to a noticeboard. However always assume good faith. Best.Resnjari (talk) 12:20, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I understand what you mean. I have a very busy schedule and therefore wouldn't even have time for an "edit-war". I've been respectful and hope that they will show me the same courtesy. I finally heard back from one of the users and have replied back. If you have time, I would appreciate it if you look at what I have to say. Since their main objection seems to be Akar and Soysal, I've asked them whether they will be willing to return it to my edits but removing these two sources as a compromise. Here's hoping I wont be attacked again. O.celebi (talk) 12:51, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
O.celebi, stay around just be selective on which article you edit like i am at the moment. I'll have a look and see. Best.Resnjari (talk) 13:47, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hello
Hi Resnjari, I hope you're doing well!
I have already read the source you provided, it was a very interesting read!
I am finding the double standards in Talk:Turkish people very frustrating, but I will continue to point this out with sources, when necessary.
I am currently writing up an introduction and an info box in my sandbox. I have taken a look at the Albanians article, and have no objection to including a similar footnote if sources are placed alongside it. If you have time, I would really appreciate it if you have a look at what I have done so far.
I'm thinking that it might also be a good idea to place a footnote stating that Algeria, Libya and Tunisia forbid declaring ethnicity in official censuses (source and footnote). Moreover, I have not included European state censuses because they base their statisics on citizenship not ethnicity (source); in its place, I have looked for estimates regarding people of Turkish origin, which includes naturalised individuals and descendants. I've quoted all the sources.
O.celebi, That looks good. For the infobox, you would need to add a note at the subtitle: "Turkish minorities in the Arab world". It should say something like: > In Arab Middle Eastern and north African countries, Turks are not recognized as a minority. In a post Ottoman environment many of them have been culturally and linguistically Arabized with some retaining a semblance of Turkish heritage. Due to an absence of census data estimates on the remnants of the size of these populations vary. Regarding the scholars population estimates for Arab countries in the Middle East, i would also place the year of when that estimate was given by that scholar, so the reader knows. Play around with it on the sandbox and then i'll have a look. Best.Resnjari (talk) 22:01, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As per the discussion of whether it was only "small numbers" of Albanophone Orthodox that supported the Albanian national movement-- I interpret the "small numbers" here (as I think you do too, as per edit summary) as meaning small proportions in terms of sentiment. We don't have polls of the population from then, obviously, so we will never know who the "majority" supported. I looked in the sources listed and the one that I could get the page for (the others weren't offered for free on Google at the moment) didn't say anything that would suggest that the proportion of Orthodox Albanians supporting Albanian nationalism was "small". Most sources I've seen on this generally speak of the Orthodox population being divided. I'm excluding the nationalist rhetoric on either side, of course, the 'patriotic' Greek Orthodox sources claiming without much verification that all Albanian Orthodox were "Albanophone Greeks" who hated all "Turko-Albanian" Muslims, yearned for Greek rule etc, and also the patriotic Albanian sources that harp on the unique tolerance fetare te Shqiperise and seem to claim that not a single ethnic Albanian regardless of faith supported foreign rule ever (when there were even cases of Catholics who preferred Montenegro and Muslims who were against Albanian independence and supported Turkey).
For a mostly sober (though still clearly Greek in viewpoint) analysis of it, I could drop Psomas: [[7]]. Psomas notes that there was a regional difference among the Orthodox in Albania, whereby the Orthodox of more eastern regions (Korca, Permeti, etc) had a high proportion of Albanian nationalists, including a large number of Rilindas such as the Qiriazis, Mihal Grameno and (I would note) Naum Veqilharxhi, who was writing as early as 1825. So at least for those regions I feel its wrong to say that only "small numbers" supported Albanian nationalism as opposed to Hellenism. Nobody talks about the swathes of Orthodox Albanians in regions outside "Vorioipirus" (Myzeqe, near Elbasan, Berat, Durres...), but I've never seen any evidence whatsoever of Hellenism or lack of Albanian nationalism there either. And even in Psomas' more pro-Greek "Southwestern Albania", it should be noted that the area had large numbers of people who were actually ethnically Greek (who naturally were Hellenists), and there were many Albanian Orthodox nationalists even here-- i.e. Lunxheria may have had Zografos, but they also had the Meksi family, and pretty important rilindasit like Koto Hoxhi and Pandeli Sotiri. Sorry that was long winded. We don't have actual numbers, so what's the point in saying it was only small proportions of Orthodox? --Yalens (talk) 02:45, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yalens, though myself being wary of Greek sources at times, there are a few studies out there that stand out from the pack that are not mired in the usual tropes. Kokolakis did a demographic study looking at the archive and other many primary sources and has been cited by respectable wp:reliable and wp:secondary sources also. His study looked at national affiliations. Though it is not in doubt that the Orthodox Albanian community produced some number of national movement activists (slowly increased over time), they themselves acknowledged that among the people, the sentiments of the Orthodox Albanian speaking population were toward Greek identity or they were indifferent on the issue (see Nitsiakos, Skoulidas, even Skendi, in the Islam in Albania article -the 1800s one, click on the weblinks and follow the page numbers i have placed for those sources). Its why those activists in their works and pronouncements usually go on about stopping hellenisation and the need to have a common brotherhood with Muslim Albanians etc, etc. Nonetheless the population group who first began affiliating and eventually supported the national movement below the Shkumbini river were Muslim Albanian speaking people. What Kokolakis' study notes is that during the time of the Albanian national awakening is that numbers slowly were beginning to affiliate with the Albanian national moment and Greece began to show concern.
Still, it was not a big move and my edit on that was about the relationship of Albanian Muslims with the Albanian Orthodox at that time (have a read of Kokolakis - you can copy and paste pages from the book in google translate if you cannot read Greek. There are a few maps based on good strong data which are also of interest to you as you have made some maps in the past). Psomas' study cites an important factor regarding sentiments. On page 280, Psomas refers to Orthodox Albanian immigrants returning back to the Korca region, who had attained national Albanian sentiments in the USA. This happened after independence until the 1920s that tipped the balance (i.e: also wanting an independent Albanian Orthodox church) and also the inclusion of Orthodox Albanian people in the state literally halting the hellenisation process among the youth at least. Before that it was more pro-Greek and why the Northern Epirot movement had wide geographical spread (all its leaders were from an Orthodox Albanian speaking background except Spiromilos). My edit in the Islam article refers to the pre-1912 situation and sources do not disagree on this. You may come across ones that do. Add them here. Anyway a few articles need to be addressed on wiki that relate to these issues and it would be good to work on them together to make them better. Best.Resnjari (talk) 04:18, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I agree, though I'll be quite busy in general for quite awhile :(. I would argue that the statement by the British diplomats (admittedly half a decade or so after independence) that the younger generations in the "Southwest" were Albanian nationalist in orientation at least partially contradicts this. But I think a much bigger issue is that given the nature of ethnoreligious debates in the Balkans- including between Muslim and Orthodox Albanians. I'm sure I could summon up some puro shqiptar ortodoks to be (perhaps unfairly) outraged that the contributions of Sotiri, Hoxhi, Vreto, Veqilharxhi, Qiriazi and so on are dismissed with their supposed "small numbers", or might bring up the fact the pre-independence pro-Turkish faction of Albanian (Sunni) Muslims that opposed independence (for a quick example-- Skendi, The Albanian National Awakening, p58) and one quite religiously-tinged Muslim pro-"Sultan" revolt in Central Albania (neither of which are mentioned on the page as of yet). All of these identity politics debates miss the point though. I'm not disputing that a majority of Albanian nationalist activists were probably Muslim, or that a portion of Orthodoks in the South were Grecophile, but can we really assert the "smallness" of the Albanist Orthodox faction without hard numbers? Do you have a page to cite for Kokolakis (yes, a Greek), Skendi or Vickers saying specifically that only a small minority of Christian Albanians in the South supported the Albanian movement? for Kokolakis I don't want to go on a multihour page-by-page goose chase with Google Translate and the other two aren't available to me at the moment --Yalens (talk) 05:30, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yalens, on the conservative Muslim inspired uprising, Muslim Albanians opposing Albanian independence and other measures like being against the alphabet and so on, that is cited in the article: Islam in Albania (1913-1944). When i did the trim down a few weeks back creating three additional articles, i moved it to there as the main Islam in Albania article was over 12,000 words. I can add those sentences back covering it if you think their important for the main Islam in Albania article (copy and paste for me here which sentences you think need to go back, i'll do the rest). Identity politics no. Albanian identity as expressed today arose from a complicated process. No need to sideline it. When that happens it opens the door to others doing edits that are problematic at best, you get the jist - i am sure you have had run ins with some over the years. Younger generations starts later, however in the Psomas article that only relates to national consciousness for the Orthodox after 1912 and does not say something about interactions with Muslim Albanians. Thus its only relevant for the Orthodox Albanian church article. I fixed up the small numbers bit to some. There were activists but their emergence starts later and in the USA, Egypt or in the Ottoman regions outside the 4 vilayets. On Kokolakis, on page 370 onward there are a series of maps based on data that Kokolakis has examined, worth checking out. Best.Resnjari (talk) 07:20, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Alright thanks, I'll check that out. With regards to identity politics, on the other hand I think it is still worth discussing for the current era (with an unattached perspective, of course)-- which I think the pages do fairly well already actually, though more could be added on the whole Kadare-Qosja identity controversy which I might do sometime soon (with Babuna, de Rapper, etc.). One thing I can't find is any actual citable sources on what is another contender, at least colloquially, in the debate-- the Albanian secularist-nationalist (or even atheist-nationalist) synthesis which applies the same arguments against both Christianity and Islam that the Christian-national synthesis applies only to Islam (i.e. "oriental", linked to foreigners and therefore suspicious, backwards and also that Albania is the "most atheist" nation of the background and is in Atheist Europe along with the Scandinavians, Czechs and French). Obviously its origin is communism but it seems to have long outlived communism and been transformed by the influence of Western new atheism, and its fairly common to be performed by especially Albanians from the South of either Sunni or Orthodox background... and I swear I've seen it before in literature, but I can't seem to find it today. I mean the modern version of it, not the one imposed during communism (which probably contributed to it, admittedly). If nothing comes to your head, it's fine, just thought you might have an idea who might have written about this. --Yalens (talk) 17:56, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yalens, here is the link of the Islam in Albania article before i did the splits. [8] -makes it easier to look at everything in context. I only went with Qosja-Kadare because their debate was the most prominent, went on for a few years being covered in Albania and their publications making the rounds among the populace. Those two kicked started it with others then adding their input which was controversial not for the reason that it dealt with Islam in a critical way, but the racist language they used (i.e Maks Velo: 'Kosovars are primitive due to being Muslim', 'minarets look the rockets of Iran' etc). The article is about Islam in Albania and no need to make it about debates about Islam in Albania otherwise the article will lose focus. Considering the whole debate in general did take on a quite strongly Islamophobic tinge, if you want we can kick start a article called Islamophobia in Albania and then expand at will all with these debates etc. On the communist perspective, Kadare and those who commented with similar or more controversial language are seen as reflecting the views of the old "Albanian secularist-nationalist (or even atheist-nationalist) synthesis". See Schmidt-Neke p. 15.[9]. Best.Resnjari (talk) 02:49, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Lovely words aren't they :/. As for an article on Islamophobia, honestly my general observation has been that most of the "anti x-group bigotry" pages (different racisms, anti-national sentiments, sectarian bigotries) generally turn into edit war battlegrounds, due to the emotive nature of the topic and its use in propaganda outside Wikipedia. In the case of Islamophobia in Albania, I would argue a better alternative is to place it within the context of wider interreligious relations. Within this, Islamophobia is one of many relevant dynamics that merits discussion, along with the historical context (communist, Zog, independence, Ottomans), anti-other-group sentiments, historical nad current competition between faiths including Islam over resources (nowadays buildings, historically the Orthodox-Muslim tension in the land reform controversy after independence), and so on. I'm currently working on a general page that discusses the role of religion and other factors in national identity and relevant debates within this realm, in my sandbox. A section on Islamophobia would be a good addition there I think. I may have to drastically reduce its scope from the current state (which also looks at ethnicity, history and language, and has an array of planned sections for the identities of minority groups), however... --Yalens (talk) 03:40, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yalens, I was looking at your suggestions. Perspective and anlaysis wise we coincide on how we look at the issues. You would need though to cut it drastically. I would say your article in the end may end up being challenged and deleted. Reason being editors will say that chunks of it can go into other articles that already exist (as subheadings and sections) and it is a fork. I would say use that sandbox layout as a guide fill up a section on it and then place that section in a existing article adressing shortcomings there. Also on minority thing, Albania doesn't have a indigenous Turkish community. Turks In Albania are there post 1992 ((a few hundred countered in the census). The small number from before going back to the Ottoman era where some clerics and soldiers who married locally and assimilated. Bosniaks in the Shijak region have not been albanized. They are AAlbanian citizens but that is different. They still speak Bosniak as a mother tongue there and its still alive and kicking (see: Stienke and Ylli -got to the demographics section of Islam in Albania and see footnotes). A small group who went to the Myzeqe area linguistically assimilated. In recent times they have accepted Serbia's offer and they receive assistance for the Serbian language classes. The Shijak Bosniaks have of course rejected Serb offers.
Reflecting on the Islamophobia thing you are right. I propose then a different alternative. How about a Orientalism in Albania or Albanian Orientalism article (examples to look for possible structure: Orientalism in early modern France; Black orientalism; Scottish orientalism? For concepts etc see: Orientalism, Orientalism (book), Nesting Orientalisms. We can use Enis Sulstarova to set the parameters of defining the article's scope + framework as a great starting point. Sulstarova has published in wp:reliable and wp:secondary sources in the West and in English too. In his works he traces Orientalism in Albania as basically going back to the 1870s - the Rilindja period going all the way to the Qosja-Kadare thing. The article can basically cover both those (individuals, regions, religious groups etc etc) who had a fascination with the east and those who disliked it now and then. The article's scope would not just encompass the Middle East, but also Asia, mainly China (Enver's relations and cultural influence which has affected Albania's views of Asia (some racist sadly). Best.Resnjari (talk) 14:36, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I'm fairly familiar with Said's work. I think it could be confusing because at least I've encountered another (older?) definition of "orientalist" in Albanian (and also in English, although this use is long atrophied and irrelevant), meaning someone who prefers ties to and identifies with the "East" (read: Muslim countries). The Said-derived definition is surely also (perhaps more) used in primarily Muslim circles (like ZeriIslam.com). "Occidentalism" can mean the converse, whereas in English it is mainly used as a sort of inverted Orientalism. I suppose it's not that much of a problem in English but sources could possibly get weird on this if we use older texts. If we are going to make a page based on Sulstarova's work, I think also making clear that it is within the conceptual framework of Nesting Orientalisms (or however Sulstarova fits it into Orientalism, I haven't read his works) would be good as per some definitions of Orientalism Albania would not be a legitimate possible "Orientalizer" due to its ambiguous position on the "East-West" dichotomy (for those who believe in a dichotomy...). And then because Orientalism is largely theoretical in nature we wouldn't be able to attribute statements that woul dbe classified as Islamophobic as "Orientalist" unless scholars of Orientalism themselves applied the label (for example) as that would be SYN(so such a page might end up fairly small. But I'm not against making it, with those things in mind.
Re Turks-- although perhaps its a bad idea as it increases the likelihood the page gets challenged and deleted, I actually was building the page in my sandbox on the basis of the entire Albanophone intellectual space which includes Albanians from Kosovo and Macedonia and Montenegro (but not, at the moment, Greece). There are indisputably Turks in Kosovo and Northwestern Macedonia some of whom have been "Albanized" (see the ethnicity switching patterns in the censuses, for example). In Albania there was once settlement by Turks of pockets of Albania-- around Shkoder, a pocket in Elbasan and a pocket near Korce. However there is no discussion of what became of these settlements nowadays Re the Bosniaks (some of whom are Muslims from Montenegro) yeah actually that's great, I'm gathering links on these things at intervals now-- in particular I'm trying to find things about the communities' conceptualizations of their own identities, but I'm putting this on hold at the moment due to the issue of deciding the scope of the page. I've also heard of Albanization of Orthodox Montenegrin communities (not near the border, but in Central Albania), presumably during the Ottoman era but no actually good sources on this on my hand at the moment. And yeah I'm aware the page looks like crap right now-- I have to reorganize it somehow to tie the stuff together in a way that is of Wikipedia's standards. One problem is my own Albanian literacy :/. But sandboxes are great, aren't they. --Yalens (talk) 19:34, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yalens, Sulstarova's stuff is a somewhat more wide-ranging though and covers both like and dislike and the mix that has resulted in. Kind of why i thought that might be an angle worth going about. Still we would need sources before creating such a page. In time though as there are other articles that need to be addressed first. As for Turks in Kosovo, Malcolm Noel's wide ranging study on Kosovo only says that Turks in Kosovo were found there from medevil times and lived in 3 small settlements. People today in Prizren and Mamusha for example are Albanians who took on Turkish culture and language in the 18/19th century (kind of like the Orthodox Albanians becoming hellenized) and in response to the urban countryside thing also, the phenomenon was limited in Kosovo. In a historical context, you will find sources for the Turkification of these people instead of the opposite. In Macedonia its a similar story and Macedonian sources even refer to turkifed Albanians in Gostivar and two to three villages around it. In Tearce are people who have declared themselves as Turks, descendants of Turks outright (settled a few hundred ago after disturbances by Albanians near the Kacanik gorge), while in Upper Zhupa the 5 to 6 villages settled by the Turks after the capture of Sfetigrad from Skanderbeg on which modern day Kodzadzik is built. There are good studies on these these days. Even the Albanians of Skopje called Turks in the 19th/early 20th century where noted by Gustav Weigand as speaking Albanian at home (cited in Aarbakke). The process was linguistic Turkification in certain areas (overwhelmingly urban in Tetovo, Gostivar and Skopje) but not outright of identity due to the Ottoman state being ejected from the region. In Macedonia these people have been switching and playing around with their identities, whereas in Kosovo its solidified, post 1999 (i.e: Mamusha, somewhat in Prizren. In Dobercan village though Turkish is spoken they identify themselves as Albanians).
In Albania numbers of Turks resident which was small have assimilated long long ago even before independent Albania came around due to small numbers. Elbasan, true was settled in some part by Turkish people upon its creation and Shkoder had some Turks of some number whom were clerics but overall by the creation of the Albanian state these had long assimilated. Of Korce, its the first i am hearing about this. There is no works about a continuous modern day presence because there is no continuous Turkish community. Turks in the census today are post 1992 made up of businessmen, people involved in the education sector (Gulen schools) etc. Of the Bosniaks, those in Shkoder do not regard themselves as Bosniaks or even Muslim Montenegrins but Podgoricani, from Podgorica (academic sources -also based on fieldwork -for more see Islam in Albania article: Steinke-Ylli, Tošić). Stienke and Ylli did fieldwork on all the Slavic communities in Albania from the mid 2000s until the middle part of this decade (see book 4: Vraka - Borakaj). On the book, about Montenegrins they mention nothing about Orthodox Montenegrin in Elbasan. The only person thus far who has mentioned a "Serbian Orthodox" presence or "Albanized origin" of the Orthodox of Elbasan was Jovan Cvijić and his work is noted for being politically biased (see: Wilkinson) advancing late 19th/early 20th century Serbian expansionism (also see: Serbian historiography). On sandboxes, yeah the're cool. Best.Resnjari (talk) 03:27, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Mbase do te lexoj veprat e Sulstaroves, nese kam kohe (nje dite... sa larg...). As for the Orthodox Slavs in Central Albania these were not in Elbasan but rather further south, on this map you can see a brief Slavic (sometimes marked as Serb-Montenegrin-youknowthedrill-etc in one map, Bulgarian in others) around Mallakastra and Selenica -- see here ([[10]], [[11]], [[12]] ). Granted there are many errors in these maps. In any case I think I'm gonna ditch that part of the page anyways. --Yalens (talk) 05:10, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Get your hands on Maps and Politics: A Review of the Ethnographic Cartography of Macedonia (1951) by Henry Robert Wilkinson. Its still a classic for Balkan studies. He dissects these maps (his coverage goes wider than Macedonia -book title should have had word Balkans). I say this because maps like Lejean's for example cover all of historic Epirus as having Albanians or consisting of Albanian speakers which is false. Greek Zagori, Pogoni, the area of Arta, Ioannina etc were mainly Greek speaking. Take those maps with caution as some had various political motives -see Wilkerson for more. Otherwise one ends up with POVish results and manipulations, i.e see map "Blue for Greeks" - even areas that are inhabited by Muslim Albanians apparently in this map are Greek. Compare this POV map with the maps from Kokolakis based on actual and proper scholarship. Also Kokolakis' very detailed study which encompasses the whole Ioannina Vilayet does not make reference to a Slavic population being resident there (even linguistically). On the few islands of Slavs down south, were mainly in Myzeqe brought by Ali Pasha as laborers from Ohrid . A few stayed, most returned back after his demise (see Selishchev). Hope it assists.Resnjari (talk) 05:46, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yo Resnjari, so I just finished making a demographic map showing the "traditional" locations of various linguistic and religious groups in Albania using a huge variety of sources that's way too long to list on your talk page here (including Kokolakis and Kallivretakis though-- thanks for those). I figured I'd send it to you before uploading, as you seem to know a lot of specific demographic facts esp with regard to random villages, to see if I missed anything. You have any time? Understood if not. --Yalens (talk) 05:31, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yalens, yeah ok send it and I have some time to have a look. Best.Resnjari (talk) 06:24, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted it after consultation on the matter. Best.Resnjari (talk) 08:09, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This Barnstar is for you!
The Original Barnstar
This barnstar is awarded to you for your additions and expansions on Orthodoxy in Albania. Your work is seen and appreciated! -- SILENTRESIDENT 14:50, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am glad you finally listened. I hope more people will work on it, as it has a great potential for further expansions. --SILENTRESIDENT 14:50, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
SilentResident, I just went with the redirect. There are few i want to be rid of so i can create stuff. By the way how do you get rid of them? I tried on Alb wiki many years back and just abandoned the endevour and there is to many wiki this and that pages on doing stuff and a headache to look for.Resnjari (talk) 14:55, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The redirect works only if you try by conventional means to access the page where the redirect tag is placed. To avoid getting redirected, you have to add the following command on your web browser's address bar:
&redirect=no
So, if you want for example to access the Orthodoxy in Albania without being redirected, adding the &redirect=no at the end of the url will let you do so. Example:
Similar codes exist outside of Wikipedia too. For example, if you are a Google user and you want to stay on the english version of the search engine and avoid a localization redirect to your country's version (ie Google.al), you will have to add the following code at the end of the url:
This way, the Google search engine won't redirect you anymore to the local version. You can set https://www.google.com/ncr as your home page as well.
--SILENTRESIDENT 15:18, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Albanian ethnic nationalism
Thanks for this additon and the work you've done in this field. Just out of curiosity as I am an outsider who is interested, is there not also Albanian nationalism in Montenegro? It just seems odd that in Macedonia and Serbia they can have one demand but in Montenegro they might resign themselves to "minority" status when they do form majorities in parts. I say this even if relations between the Albanian community and the Montenegrin regime may be good. Likewise, if I am not mistaken, both Italy and Greece are a homeland for ethnic Albanians even if the number is smaller. Is there not nationalism there too? Or will articles come along later in time? Cheers. --Coldtrack (talk) 19:47, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Coldtrack. I am finalising a holistic Albanian nationalism article hopefully in the next hour or so due to "popular demand" on the main talkpage. lol. But on Montenegro, yes there is kind of, however when i did the google books + scholar search, most of the material was in regards to Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia. One source was in relation to Montenegro. If editors come across substantive material for a Montenegro page they are more then welcome to initiate a article. The Albanian community there has been more integrated so probably why the disparity. In Greece its complicated. Albanians are divided into four sub groups and the smallest, the Chams, most ended up being in northern Greece after the Balkan Wars 1912-13. Of the Albanian speakers who became Muslim (late 18th century) they much later developed an Albanian consciousness. Those that remained Orthodox, due to the Patriarchate and Greek schooling and after 1912 becoming part of Greece attained a Greek consciousness. These divisions in Thesprotia would play out in communal discord as modern identities of Albanian for Muslim Albanian speakers and Greek for Orthodox Albanian speakers clashed during the interwar period [13], [14]. During World War Two Muslim Albanian Chams supported the Axis forces who promised unification with Albania and a small number outright collaborated. Both sides committed various forms of violence against each other and 1944 rightwing EDES forces (of which contained some numbers of local Orthodox Albanian speakers) expelled them into Albania. Local Orthodox Albanian speakers see themselves as Greeks and though they identify also as Arvanites, they are careful about connecting that with being Albanian to avoid associations with what they consider Albanian irredentism. So there really isn't an Albanian nationalism present in Greece today. Had the Muslim Chams not been expelled and some kind of Albanian consciousness had spread among some Orthodox Albanian speakers in the area, who knows things might be different.
If this journal article is hard to come by, i'll place a chunk of it which sums up the stuff i said -its in french -use google translate to read if not a French speaker. Pierre Sintes, from his research wrote. p. 90 [15]: "Ces stèles participeraient donc d’un double mouvement d’assignation d’identités, par défaut nationales, alors que la réalité des appartenances dans la région est plus labile, surtout depuis la réouverture de la frontière en 1990. Le recours aux cadres d’une identité plutôt locale peut finalement être une manière pratique de tourner cette contradiction et de résoudre ce qui se présente comme un paradoxe inconciliable dans les discours nationaux. C’est par exemple le cas au sujet du flottement qui se fait jour dans la définition des termes employés pour se définir dans cette région. Léonidas Embirikos et Lambros Baltsiotis ont montré comment l’appellation « Tcham » pouvait à cet égard être des plus significative car employée pour désigner des réalités parfois bien différentes [Baltisiotis et Embirikos, 2007]. De la même manière, ces auteurs montrent de manière éloquente comment l’adoption récente du terme d’« Arvanite » (plutôt que de « Tchams ») qu’utilisent pour se désigner les albanophones résidant encore dans l’actuelle Thesprotie conduit à la neutralisation de la question de leur altérité linguistique, qui cesse ainsi d’être un fait transnational pour devenir une question interne à la Grèce contemporaine où d’autres populations albanophones sont présentes en Attique et dans le nord-est du Péloponnèse. Le groupe linguistique des albanophones de Thesprotie se trouve donc séparé en deux du fait de ces appellations distinctes : d’un côté ces « Arvanites » (sous-entendu, les orthodoxes albanophones) compris comme de conscience nationale grecque à l’image des autres « Arvanites » de vieille Grèce, de l’autre les « Turco-Tchams » ou « Albano-Tchams » qui sont compris comme étant des Albanais musulmans que l’on associe historiquement à la construction nationale albanaise ; n’a-t-on pas entendu d’ailleurs dans presque toutes nos enquêtes qu’ils ont été « renvoyés chez eux » à l’occasion de la Seconde Guerre mondiale ? Cette présentation permet ainsi à ces citoyens grecs albanophones présents dans la région d’exprimer leur particularité linguistique tout en la neutralisant, en désamorçant tout lien entre un éventuel irrédentisme albanais et leur présence actuelle en Thesprotie."
Hope it assists. After these nationalism articles i am going to give them a little rest. Albanian nationalism by Albanians in Italy was devoted toward the Balkans and in particular related to what is Albania today. So it mainly is covered in the Albania article.Resnjari (talk) 20:30, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah thanks for that. Obviously in Macedonia and Serbia (and Kosovo) it has been more prominent. I wouldn't personally have thought integration would have been an issue if the desires were self-determination. Likewise, I couldn't see self-determination being the answer where a nation fails to achieve integrated status. One would assume the community will press for what it wants because if it cannot get it, it will be repressed either way if that makes any sense. I mean nationalism in this region had been on the rise for the last hundred and something years of Ottoman rule, yet the Ottomans saw regime change on several occasions during this period. I know Montenegrin chunks are included in any proposed great Albanian state but ultimately you are right, an article of this nature can only exist where there is enough coverage of Albanians acting inside Montenegro. Otherwise it falls in the scope of pure Albanian nationalism regardless of subject's homeland. If I find anything that may help I too will submit it, or make the contributions once any article is created. Thanks for the transfers. --Coldtrack (talk) 20:41, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Coldtrack, depends on how self determination is defined. In Montenegro, Albanians want the Tuzi municipality reconstituted (abolished 1956). There are those demands but not ones within the community to secede and unite with Albania. However not sure if that falls under nationalism per se. Anyway, these are articles needed to be done. To much stuff out there and too few Albanian editors to address the content. The old Albanian nationalism page was very POVish, had poor referencing, original research etc. Considering Albanian related issues are going to be a "hot" geopolitical topic for years to come, might as well have proper scholarship covering it. Any assistance would be much appreciated. Best.Resnjari (talk) 20:50, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again for reply. I'll make this one quick - and so you know this is my humble opinion. I can only assume you are referring to this Tuzi? If locals are not pushing for outright independence then they cannot be seeking to connect with the wider Albanian nationalists. Technically they would be in conflict here. In reality however, communities demonstrate patriotism by articulating vocal support for their ethnic affiliates across national borders. Such a measure is closer to regionalism but it differs in that it has this twist of ethnic self-interest. Somehow neither here nor there, or maybe moderate nationalism. We'd all need to seek advice over this one. --Coldtrack (talk) 20:57, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah Tuzi. But locals don't want independence, just to have the old municipality back which would be made up of only Albanian villages as they feel subsumed under the larger Podgorica municipality. With Albanians, though what might be regionalism or even just basic human rights at times is viewed by neighbouring states as nationalism in general. Its how the region is, i guess.Resnjari (talk) 21:07, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Fair Use in Australia campaign update
I'm writing you this followup message, as you took the time to vote in support of a Wikipedia banner campaign for the introduction of Fair Use in Australia.
Furthermore, and with the support of the ADA & EFA, we have received fantastic media coverage - with article "Fair Use: Wikipedia targets Australians in bid to change the law" appearing on page 2 of the Sydney Morning Herald and page 10 of the Melbourne Age on Monday's edition. It was for a time the 3rd most read article the Fairfax website, and Fair Use was "trending" on Twitter in Australia. We are running the account @FairCopyrightOz on twitter, and we are tracking other press-mentions on the talkpage on Meta.
Today, day 2, we published a detailed post about the campaign on the Wikimedia Blog, ran an "Ask Me Anything" Q&A session on the Australia page in Reddit, and [by happy coincidence of timing] the article History of fair use proposals in Australia appeared on the en.wp mainpage as a Did You Know. [The creation of that "history of..." article was a specific request arising from in the community consultation in which you voted].
And, most importantly, in a little more than a day nearly 800 letters to MPs have been sent encouraging them to support the Productivity Commission's recommendation to adopt Fair Use in Australia. I urge you - please add your own message.
Hi Resnjari, I just wanted to let you know that I have added the "autopatrolled" permission to your account, as you have created numerous, valid articles. This feature will have no effect on your editing, and is simply intended to reduce the workload on new page patrollers. For more information on the patroller right, see Wikipedia:Autopatrolled. Feel free to leave me a message if you have any questions. Happy editing! — MusikAnimaltalk 20:22, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There's this great guy I know, really well-read, and it's thought[by whom?] he may own a library[original research?]. There's a high chance he's been on a page if there's great and well-organized citations. Goes by Resnjari. Thank goodness he exists. 10/10 would give a barnstar again. Yalens (talk) 07:40, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Stathi
I would do it myself normally, but could you add the Pontificio thing? Offwiki issues to deal with, you know. Thanks a bunch. As per Mema, my general observation is that he's a good journalist, he just happens to have strong feelings about things. He has what I would call the "Orth Albanian viewpoint" in that he argues against both Greek claims and claims that marginalize the Orthodox historically/currently or try to make them "less Albanian"/'Eastern'/etc.... and he posted some passionate opinions on the internet which may have affected his professional reputation, and that's likely why he got banned from Greece in combination with the sensitivity of the Cham issue. Some other Albanian writers have had the same issue. I think in his work as a journalist he is a reliable reporter of events. Thanks a ton man.EDIT: sorry, I had kinda skimmed that talk page --Kalinthos (talk) 19:43, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Kalinthos, ok, will do. Mema is ok for me, its the others. Best.Resnjari (talk) 19:48, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
ANI notice
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Since noone notified you I'm doing it, even though I didn't start the thread there. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 17:53, 21 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Stop it
Next stop is WP:AE where I will press for a topic ban. Final warning. Khirurg (talk) 17:55, 21 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
-- SILENTRESIDENT 14:50, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
--SILENTRESIDENT 14:50, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
![[10]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Balkans-ethnic_%281861%29.jpg){kind=link}
![[11]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Ethnic_map_of_Balkans_-_russian_1867.jpg){kind=link}
![[12]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/CarlSaxET1877.jpg){kind=link}
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Since noone notified you I'm doing it, even though I didn't start the thread there. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 17:53, 21 September 2017 (UTC)