Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kurds and Kurdistan/Workshop: Difference between revisions
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==Proposals by User:عمرو بن كلثوم== |
==Proposals by User:عمرو بن كلثوم== |
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Now that many ArbCom members have had a firsthand experience, here on this board, of the type of behavior we have been dealing with, I am certain they have identified for themselves the disruptive "users" in this case even before consulting the evidence provided. On top of this behavior issue, as Barkeep has correctly noticed above, we do have a content and source dispute. GPinkerton et al. have decided to adopt the wildest Kurdish nationalistic view, including the name "Syrian Kurdistan" for parts of northern Syria. They have decided to present that name as an undisputed name for areas that have always had very mixed populations, ethnically and culturally. I am certain most of you know that the name "Kurdistan" means (Land of the Kurds). While in some locations (parts of northwestern Iran, eastern Turkey and northeastern Iraq) the population is almost entirely Kurdish in large swaths of land, the situation is very different in northern Syria, and I will present evidence below. GPinkerton et al. removed content and maps related to the 20th century history of the area from the Syrian Kurdistan article, under different pretexts and arbitrary rules, in an effort to hide the fact that most of the Kurdish population in Syria have in fact immigrated from Turkey. We are not here in a position to discuss what's right and what's wrong, we are simply here to present facts and leave the judgement to the reader. As indicated in the sources listed below, the fact is that large numbers of immigrants from Turkey have arrived in many successive waves throughout the first half of the 20th century, and regardless whether some Kurds existed in this area before or not, these immigrants arriving in the tens of thousands (20,000 to 25,000 in the 1920's alone according to Sir John Hope Simpson and John McDowall, both detailed below) significantly inflated the number of Kurds compared to other constituents. We have British maps ([https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Maunsell%27s_map_Ras_el_Ain_marked.jpg 1], [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sykes_demographic_map_of_middle_section_of_Syria-Turkey_border._The_town_of_Ras_al-Ain_is_in_Syria.jpg 2]) from the early 20th century showing exactly the location of Arab and Kurdish tribes prior to the establishment of the border (the train track was used as the border line, the towns [[Kobani|Arab Punar]], [[Ras al-Ayn]] and [[Nusaybin]] are right on the Syria-Turkey border and could be used as reference points)). The French scholarship from the era (some mentioned below) gives VERY DETAILED accounts of this immigration, still GPinkerton wants to toss that out, because that does not agree with their POV and ideological convictions. Let's assume we throw that away, we still have newer scholarship, such as Strom (2005). Well, this time GPinkerton does not like it because it does not give too much details. Assuming we go with that, Jordi Tejel (2009) mentions the following<ref>{{cite book|last=Tejel|first=Jordi|title=Syria's Kurds: History, Politics and Society|year=2009 |publisher=Routledge|location=London|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=5lh9AgAAQBAJ&pg=PT250|isbn=978-0-203-89211-4|page=144}}</ref>: {{tqq|The mandatory authority’s attitude toward Kurdish refugees evolved from one of rejection in 1925 to one of encouragement to settle in Jazira, and to a lesser extent in Kurd Dagh. '''If before 1927 there were at most 45 Kurdish villages in this region, by 1939, they numbered between 700 and 800 agglomerations of Kurdish majority.'''}} According to official French mandate of Syria census numbers presented in 1939 there were 54,769 Muslim Arabs (including 25,000 nomads), 53,315 Kurds (in addition to 2181 Kurdo-Christians and 1602 Yezidis), and the rest being Christian (40,283). As you can see, this is almost a perfect three way split, with no dominant group, and even after all the Kurdish (and Christian) immigration in the previous two decades, the number of Kurds is only half the population in 1939. How would that justify adopting the Kurdish nationalistic name for the area and imply the other "native" half of the population are now foreigners on their land? Despite all these pieces of evidence, GPinkerton still [[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan&diff=prev&oldid=991136495 to accept this fact that most Kurds in Syria have immigrated from Turkey]. The table below from De Vaumas (1956) clearly shows the effect on the inflowing immigration on the population of Syrian Jazira province<ref>De Vaumas Étienne. [https://www.persee.fr/doc/geo_0003-4010_1956_num_65_347_14375 Population actuelle de la Djézireh]. In: Annales de Géographie, t. 65, n°347, 1956. pp. 72-74; doi : https://doi.org/10.3406/geo.1956.14375.</ref>. |
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{{Historical populations |
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|1929|40000|1931|44153 |1932|63000 |1933|64886 |1935|94596 |1937|98144 |1938|103514 |1939|106052 |1940|126508 |1941|129145|1942|136107 |1943|146001 |1946|151137 |1950|159300|1951|162145 |1952|177388 |1953|232104 |1954|233998 |
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The commonly used name for the area (still not very neutral, but definitely less exclusive than "Syrian Kurdistan") is demonstrated in [https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/16390538.pdf Kaya (2012)]: {{tqq|Although it is well established that these maps overlook the heterogeneous character of the population inhabiting the area as well as the political boundaries of the existing states, they appear in almost all types of sources, from Kurdish websites to non-Kurdish academic works, journals and newspapers. They typically refer to the region as '''‘Kurdish populated areas’ or the ‘Kurdish region’'''.}} |
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Even the Kurdish activist [[Ismet Cheriff Vanly]], writing in 1993, when describing Kurdistan referred to the Kurdish areas of in Syria as follows<ref>A People without a Country: The Kurds and Kurdistan, Zed Books. [https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_People_Without_a_Country/W78I4hK0JLQC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=western%20Kurdistan pp. 139-140]</ref>: {{tqq|Kurdistan in Iraq is often referred to as Southern Kurdistan but in fact it occupies a more or less central position in the Kurdish territories. It is the link between what is variously known as Turkish, Northern or Western Kurdistan to the north and north-west, and so-called Eastern or Iranian Kurdistan to the east and south-east, and it also borders on the '''mainly Kurdish areas of the Syrian Jezireh'''.}} |
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Along the same lines, a declassified CIA report talks about "Turkish Kurdistan", "Kurdistan" in Iran", and "Kurdistan" in Iraq, but for Syria it uses the term "Kurds in Syria" (see quotes below). |
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Back to the Syrian Kurdistan page, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Syrian_Kurdistan&oldid=988216156 this version] was a consensus/compromise version that was last edited by user Applodion, a moderate and decent user who usually edits in favor of Kurds and their autonomous administration, but is still and reasonable and not hostile (to put it nicely) towards the other ethnic constituents like some other users here. That version does show the Kurdish nationalistic name, but does point out that it is disputed. Then the edit-warring sock puppet [[u|Konli17]] shows up and starts a "Major clean-up, ..." [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Syrian_Kurdistan&type=revision&diff=988357903&oldid=988312080 here] that started this mess, then GPinkerton shows up and continues the edit-warring and takes over from the sock-puppet. Even admin [[u|Valereee]] accepted that the name is disputed [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Syrian_Kurdistan&diff=prev&oldid=991715918 here], then she [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ASyrian_Kurdistan&type=revision&diff=991145096&oldid=991136495 recused herself] but came back after and placed a source restriction (as indicated before by user Supreme Deliciousness in the evidence) and handed a few brief Talk page blocks to three users (Supreme Deliciouseness, [[u|Fiveby]] and myself) because we were not in agreement with the POV-pushing and presentation of the "Syrian Kurdistan" term is an undisputed fact. |
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===Non-exhaustive examples of scholarship on Kurdish immigration from Turkey into Syria=== |
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{{collapse top|Rondot (1936)}} |
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*{{cite journal|author= Pierre Rondot|title=Les tribus montagnardes de l'asie antérieures. Quelques aspects sociaux des populations kurdes et assyriennes|journal=Bulletin d'Etudes Orientales|date= 1936|volume=6|pages=1–50|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/41585290|language=fr|quote=Le massif montagneux de l'Arménie et du Kurdistan tombe assez brusquement au sud, au delà de Mardine, Nissibin, et Djéziret ibn Omar, vers les steppes de la Djézireh , domaine du nomade arabe. C'est la frontière de deux mondes : tandis que les Arabes, grands nomades dont l'existence est liée à celle du chameau, ne sauraient pénétrer dans la montagne rocailleuse, les Kurdes considèrent avec envie la bordure du steppe, relativement bien arrosé et plus facile à cultiver que la montagne, où ils pourraient pousser leurs moutons et installer quelques cultures. Dès que la sécurité le permet, c'est- à-dire dès que le gouvernement - ou le sédentaire arme- est asses fort pour imposer au Bédouin le respect des cultures, le Kurde descend dans la plaine. Mais la sécurité ne règne pas longtemps, les récoltes ne sont pas toujours bonnes, le climat débilite le montagnard; la plaine "manges" les Kurdes, et il y a flux et reflux}} |
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Google translation: {{tq|The mountain range of Armenia and Kurdistan falls rather sharply to the south, beyond Mardin, Nissibin, and Djéziret ibn Omar, towards the steppes of Djézireh, domain of the Arab nomad. It is the border of two worlds: while the Arabs, great nomads whose existence is linked to that of the camel, could not enter the rocky mountain, the Kurds envy the edge of the steppe, relatively well watered and more easy to cultivate than the mountain, where they could push their sheep and install some crops. As soon as security permits, that is to say as soon as the government - or the sedentary armed - is strong enough to impose respect for cultures on the Bedouin, the Kurd descends into the plain. But security does not reign for long, the harvests are not always good, the climate debilitates the mountain dweller; the plain "eats" the Kurds, and there is ebb and flow.}} |
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{{collapse top|Sir John Hope Simpson (1939)}} |
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*{{Cite book|last=Simpson|first=John Hope|title=The Refugee Problem: Report of a Survey|year=1939 |publisher=Oxford University Press|location=London|ASIN=B0006AOLOA|page=458|edition=First|url-access=registration|url=https://books.google.com/books/about/The_refugee_problem_report_of_a_survey.html?id=SxR8uwEACAAJ|language=en| quote=A few Moslem refugees of the older generation, Circassians and Cretans, are settled in various parts of the country, and, under the conditions of peace and security established under the Mandate authority, some 20,000 Kurds have settled in the Upper Jezira.}} |
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{{collapse top|Declassified CIA report (1948)}} |
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*{{Cite book|last=Anonymous |first=|title=The Kurdish Minority Problem|year=1948 |publisher=CIA|location=London|ASIN=B0006AOLOA|page=458|edition=First|url-access=registration|url=https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000258376.pdf |language=en|quote=The Kurds constitute a relatively small minority in Syria and Lebanon. Kurdish communities of long standing are located in the Kurd Dagh area of northwestern Syria, but the largest concentration is in the Jazirah section of northeastern Syria, '''where a considerable number of Kurdish immigrants settled after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire'''. Small but politically active Kurdish communities exist in Damascus and Beirut. |
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The Kurds, along with other minorities, are accorded equal rights and privileges with the majority groups in Syria and Lebanon. They have parliamentary representation and generally concede that they have received fair treatment in such matters as road-building, construction of schools, and administration of justice. Nevertheless, many of them feel that their integrity as a group is in jeopardy. This feeling is most noticeable in Beirut and Damascus, which have become centers of Kurdish nationalist propaganda, and '''among the non-native immigrant Kurds''', who have retained their traditional hatred of alien domination. The immigrant group has provided most of the leaders of the Syrian and Lebanese Kurds, notably the Badr Khan family, Dr. Ahmad Nazif, and Hassan Hajo Agha.}} |
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Also in the same report (page 16): |
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{{2. Turkey: The Turkish policy of breaking up agglomerations of Kurds and settling them in groups of very small numbers in western Anatolia, despite recent reversals of that policy, has decreased the total number of Kurds in Turkish “Kurdistan”.}} |
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{{3. Iran: Territorial overlapping of Kurds with the largely Turki-speaking population of Iranian Azerbaijan and also Lur tribes makes definition of Iranian “Kurdistan” difficult. Generally speaking, however, the Kurdish area may be taken to include …}} |
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{{4. Iraq: “Kurdistan” in Iraq may be generally described as comprising the territory east of the Tigris River and north of a line …}} |
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{{5. Syria and Lebanon: The Kurds in Syria live chiefly along the northern border, and particularly in Jazira, a large province in the northeast bordering Turkey and Iraq. There are also Kurds in Damascus and Beirut. A fairly recent estimate gives the number of Kurds in the two countries as “perhaps” 200,000, out of ta total population of 2,860,411 (Syria) and 1,126,601 (Lebanon). All but a few thousand of these Kurds live in Syria.}} |
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{{collapse top|David McDowall (2004)}} |
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*{{Cite book|last=McDowall |first=David |title=Modern History of the Kurds|year=2004 |publisher=Bloomsbury Academic, Limited|location=London|language=en|ISBN=9781850434160|page=469|edition=Third|url-access=registration| url=https://books.google.com/books/about/The_refugee_problem_report_of_a_survey.html?id=SxR8uwEACAAJ|quote=Before the First World War, Jazira was largely empty and life there insecure. There had been seasonal Kurdish pastoralist tribes for centuries, most notably the Milli and Miran confederations. These wintered on the Jazira plain before ascending into the foothills of Anatolia for summer grazing. These northern lands of the Jazira were occupied during the summer months by certain Bedouin tribes, notably the Shammar (to whom the Milli were tributaries), and also the Tayy, driven north by the intense heat of the desert. Thus the area was one shared by two essentially seasonal pastoralist systems, that happened to be either Kurd of Arab. This picture was already changing towards the end of the nineteenth century with the decline of lawlessness for which the region had been notorious. Some Kurdish tribes began moving southward off the Anatolian plateau, abandoning their pastoralism in favour of farming. |
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By 1918 Kurds probably slightly outnumbered Arabs in the Jazira. '''From 1920 onwards, however, many more Kurdish tribespeople arrived, feeling from the Turkish armed forces particularly during the pacification of the tribes, 1925-28. Although the precise number crossing the new international border is unknown, it was probably in the order of about 25,000.''' Christians also arrived in even larger numbers, …}} |
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Same book (page 473-474), more on post-WWII incoming Kurdish immigration: |
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{{tq|Arab nationalists had good reason to be paranoid about internal and external enemies. Nowhere was the Syrian Arab cause less assured than in the north where so many non-Arab communities lived, particularly in al-Hasaka governorate. The population had grown rapidly, and it was the growth since 1945 that gave cause for Arab concern. In its own words, the government believed that 'At the beginning of 1945, the '''Kurds began to infiltrate into al-Hasakeh governorate. They came singly and in groups from neighbouring countries, especially Turkey, crossing illegally along the border from Ras al'Ain to al-Malikiyya. Gradually and illegally, they settled down in the region along the border in major population centres such as Dirbasiyya, Amuda and Malikiyya. Many of these Kurds were able to register themselves illegally in the Syrian civil registers. They were also able to obtain Syrian identity cards through a variety of means, with the help of their relatives and members if their tribes. They did so with the intent of settling down and acquiring property, especially after the issue of the agricultural reform law, so as to benefit from land redistribution.' Official figures available in 1961 showed that in a mere seven year period, between 1954 and 1961, the population of al-Hasakah governorate had increased from 240,000 to 305,000, an increase of 27 per cent which could not possibly be explained merely by natural increase.''' The government was sufficiently worried by the apparent influx that it carried out a sample census in June 1962 which indicated the real population was probably closer to 340,000. Although these figures may have been exaggerated, they were credible given the actual circumstances. From being lawless and virtually empty prior to 1914, the Jazira had proved to be astonishingly fertile once order was imposed by the French mandate and farming undertaken by the largely Kurdish population.... A strong suspicion that many migrants were entering Syria was inevitable. In Turkey the rapid mechanisation of farming had created huge unemployment and massive labour migration from the 1950s onwards. The fertile but not yet cultivated lands of northern Jazira must have been a strong enticement and the affected frontier was too long feasibly to police it.}} |
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{{collapse top|Lise Storm (2005)}} |
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*{{cite book|last1=Storm|first1=Lise|title=A Companion to the History of the Middle East|date=2005|publisher=Wiley-Blackwell|location=Utrecht|isbn=1-4051-0681-6 |page=475 |chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=qgKE_-HtfoAC&q=kurds+in+Syria&pg=PA475 |chapter=Ethnonational Minorities in the Middle East Berbers, Kurds, and Palestinians|quote=Most Syrian Kurds are originally Turkish Kurds who have crossed the border during different events in the 20th century. …}} |
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{{collapse top|Jordi Tejel (2009)}} |
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{{cite book|last=Tejel|first=Jordi|title=Syria's Kurds: History, Politics and Society|year=2009 |publisher=Routledge|location=London|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=5lh9AgAAQBAJ&pg=PT250|isbn=978-0-203-89211-4|page=144|quote|The mandatory authority’s attitude toward Kurdish refugees evolved from one of rejection in 1925 to one of encouragement to settle in Jazira, and to a lesser extent in Kurd Dagh. '''If before 1927 there were at most 45 Kurdish villages in this region, by 1939, they numbered between 700 and 800 agglomerations of Kurdish majority.'''}} |
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{{collapse top|Vahé Tachjian (2009)}} |
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*{{cite book|last1=Tachjian (2009)|first1=Vahé |title=The expulsion of non-Turkish ethnic and religious groups from Turkey to Syria during the 1920s and early 1930s|publisher=Online Encyclopedia of Mass Violence|isbn=1961-9898|date= 2009|page=5-6|url=https://www.sciencespo.fr/mass-violence-war-massacre-resistance/en/document/expulsion-non-turkish-ethnic-and-religious-groups-turkey-syria-during-1920s-and-early-1930s |language=en|quote=This was also why, during their occupation of Syria, '''the French authorities were not opposed to the streams of refugees coming from neighboring Turkey or Iraq. These were Assyrians/Syriacs, Chaldeans, Armenians or Kurds''' who, for various reasons, had left their homes and had found refuge in Syria. The French authorities themselves generally organized the settlement of the refugees. One of the most important of these plans was carried out in Upper Jazira in northeastern Syria. There, thanks to French efforts, new towns and villages were built with the intention of housing the refugees considered to be “friendly”. This meant that the '''non-Turkish minorities that were under Turkish pressure knew that, no matter how painful and undesirable it was to leave their ancestral homes, shops, fields and property, they could find refuge and rebuild their lives in relative safety on the other side of the border, in Syria'''}} |
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{{collapse top|Kheder Khaddour (2017)}} |
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*{{cite book|author= |last1=Khaddour |first1=Kheder |title=How Regional Security Concerns Uniquely Constrain Governance in Northeastern Syria|publisher=Carnegie Middle East Center|date= 2017|page=5-6|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/resrep12990.pdf?acceptTC=true&coverpage=false&addFooter=false|language=en|quote=For much of the twentieth century, the Jazira was strategically important because the area found itself on the front lines of Syria’s rivalries with both Turkey and Iraq. That said, the heterogeneous composition of the Jazira, and the divides that came with it, meant that no one in practice really dominated the region. During the French Mandate over Syria (1923–1946), the Mandatory authorities sought to lay down the foundations of a modern state. Administratively, they transformed the Jazira into a governorate. To encourage the tribes to become sedentary, they introduced regulations on land ownership to persuade tribal leaders to settle in return for being granted property rights. Arab and Kurdish landowners and tribal leaders, as well as members of the Assyrian and Syriac communities, came to form a class of elites mostly concentrated in the city of al-Hasakeh, the governorate’s capital. A second city, al-Qamishli, located on the Syrian-Turkish border, became an important trading center when Kurds from southeastern Turkey resettled there to work as traders or be employed by the Jazira’s landowners.}} |
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===Proposed remedies by AIK (عمرو بن كلثوم)=== |
===Proposed remedies by AIK (عمرو بن كلثوم)=== |
Revision as of 10:51, 11 February 2021
Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD
Wikipedia Arbitration |
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Track related changes |
Purpose of the workshop
Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at fair, well-informed decisions. The case Workshop exists so that parties to the case, other interested members of the community, and members of the Arbitration Committee can post possible components of the final decision for review and comment by others. Components proposed here may be general principles of site policy and procedure, findings of fact about the dispute, remedies to resolve the dispute, and arrangements for remedy enforcement. These are the four types of proposals that can be included in committee final decisions. There are also sections for analysis of /Evidence, and for general discussion of the case. Any user may edit this workshop page; please sign all posts and proposals. Arbitrators will place components they wish to propose be adopted into the final decision on the /Proposed decision page. Only Arbitrators and clerks may edit that page, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.
Expected standards of behavior
- You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being incivil or engaging in personal attacks, and to respond calmly to allegations against you.
- Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all).
Consequences of inappropriate behavior
- Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator or clerk, without warning.
- Sanctions issued by arbitrators or clerks may include being banned from particular case pages or from further participation in the case.
- Editors who ignore sanctions issued by arbitrators or clerks may be blocked from editing.
- Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.
Motions and requests by the parties
Request for preliminary statements
1)I suggest a short statement on the evidence provided by the Arbitrators following the end of the evidence phase.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Paradise Chronicle (talk • contribs)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- There are nine separate submissions, with somewhere in the vicinity of fifty subsections. Probably, as is usually the case, a lot of it will not be deemed relevant to the final decision, but that takes time to parse out. I'm just not sure what the point is here, and I don't recall this being a thing in previous cases. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:46, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Levivich:, I'm not a drafter on this case, but in my experience, real in-depth examination of the evidence tends to start once that phase is closed or close to being closed. You can't really make a statement until all the evidence is in and has has been examined. With the sheer volume here that is going to take some time, so by the time the drafters could reasonably post such a statement it could easily be a case of "closing the barn door after the horses have bolted." You may be aware that the committee is in the early stages of discussion to reform how workshops work to prevent the sort of issue you mention, but no changes were made as of the openong of this process so it will operate under the normal rules, which, as far as I can tell, do not actually exist. So there is a problem to be solved here, it just isn't limited to this one case. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:34, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- I think this seems like a bad idea. But I'm curious what benefit Paradise Chronicle was hoping for. That could be worth considering in future cases (we're not going to change procedures in this case as previously mentioned). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:55, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- There are nine separate submissions, with somewhere in the vicinity of fifty subsections. Probably, as is usually the case, a lot of it will not be deemed relevant to the final decision, but that takes time to parse out. I'm just not sure what the point is here, and I don't recall this being a thing in previous cases. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:46, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- @Beeblebrox: you might get fifty more subsections of workshop. Some feedback from arbs could help focus everyone's efforts and ultimately reduce the amount of additional writing and reading by everyone. I'm not aware of it being done in previous cases either, but this just might be a good time to start. Levivich harass/hound 01:09, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- I thought it might be good to identify the areas of the dispute which have caught the main interest of the ArbCom members before we incur into making rebuttals. I can make rebuttals or confirmations for every each argument presented against me.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 07:42, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- I have made a first analysis of the evidence to show you what awaits us if you don't come up with a clarifying statement on the evidence. We must assume you include such evidence in your fact finding process if you don't exclude it, and therefore rebuttals will be made and in detail. This time I made the rebuttal per section, but we can get more into detail (like including every each diff showing there is no Kurd or Kurdistan included in the edit).Paradise Chronicle (talk) 12:17, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- I am used to argue with Amr Ibn Kulthum like this since May 2020, but I guess and hope the ArbCom has better things to do than to double check a large number of diffs completely unrelated to Kurds and Kurdistan in an ArbCom case on Kurds and Kurdistan.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 12:42, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- I have made a first analysis of the evidence to show you what awaits us if you don't come up with a clarifying statement on the evidence. We must assume you include such evidence in your fact finding process if you don't exclude it, and therefore rebuttals will be made and in detail. This time I made the rebuttal per section, but we can get more into detail (like including every each diff showing there is no Kurd or Kurdistan included in the edit).Paradise Chronicle (talk) 12:17, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- I thought it might be good to identify the areas of the dispute which have caught the main interest of the ArbCom members before we incur into making rebuttals. I can make rebuttals or confirmations for every each argument presented against me.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 07:42, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- The "preliminary statement(s) on evidence by the arbitrators" suggestion stikes me as an exceedingly bad idea. The main purpose of the Workshop is to analyze the evidence in detail. Ideally, the arbitrators should not have much of an opinion on the evidence yet. If there are 50 sections in the Workshop, so be it. Plus, procedurally, this suggestion is just a recipe for disaster. The process currently is complicated but at least it is well defined. If a new ad-hoc step such as the preliminary statement(s) on evidence by the arbitrators is suddenly introduced now, that'll just create endless opportunities for wikilawyering, cries of unfairness (e.g. "you've just prejudiced everyone against me proposing this and that for the final decision!"), requests to redo something, and various other attemps at gaming. Having 100 sections in the Workshop will seem like a minor headache by comparison. Nsk92 (talk) 01:35, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
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- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
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3)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Proposed temporary injunctions
Not a productive use of the workshop; these proposals are not what temporary injunctions are for, which are usually issued at the beginning of a case as a stop-gap measure to address a pressing issue. Maxim(talk) 19:42, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Request to block Supreme Deliciousness
1) Supreme Deliciousness should be blocked indefinitely for incorrigible nationalistic edit warring on middle east topics (see latest example of many: [1], [2], [3], this time on Druze). Supreme Deliciousness is a single-purpose account with issues of long-term abuse. GPinkerton (talk) 17:53, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- The edit summary says "must be signed into an account and have at least 500 edits and 30 days' tenure" and links to ARBPIA4, the validity of which was confirmed by an admin in Special:Diff/1005021174. ARBPIA4 enforcement tends to be legalistic; even good changes by non-ECP editors are still reverted, and sometimes the editors blocked, so this revert seems to be in line with that. No comment on the content itself, but the reverts don't seem to be problematic. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:08, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
Proposal to remove edits by عمرو بن كلثوم and block the editor concerned
2) The following edit adds nothing new to the case, and is filled with irrelevant personal attacks and aspersions that have nothing to do with Kurds or Kurdistan and demonstrate nothing more than my efforts to uphold NPOV in the face of concerted nationalist/Islamist POV-pushing across various articles and عمرو بن كلثوم own attempts to discredit reliable sources by personal attacks and by casting aspersion on editors who supply neutral, reliable information with academic sources by resuscitating stale nationalistic debates in which I and my edits were vindicated by the community and through consensus opposed by my detractors (the story is the same on the Syrian Kurdistan page, an area in which عمرو بن كلثوم has long been pursuing his agenda): [4]
- There is now plenty of evidence of عمرو بن كلثوم tendentious editing on the topic of the myths inculcated by the Syrian Arab Republic's Ba'ath Party and al-Assad dynasty in support of their ethnic cleansing programme in particular and on the Kurds, Kurdistan, and the middle east in general. GPinkerton (talk) 18:37, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
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- Agree with the removal part, and about the blocking, well, they have refused multiple times to accept academic scholarship and in exchange supported unreliable sources either for the article and more over for the lead specially on the Kurds and Kurdistan related pages. But it seems there absolutely no guideline which admins comes to mind to forbid this so far. It would great this would stop and the ArbCom finds a solution to this.
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Proposal to overturn topic ban of GPinkerton
3) It is now clear to all that the topic ban (and the preceding blocks) are entirely unjustified, that no unreasonable "personal attacks" (rather than strident statements of fact) have been made on my part, and that allegations of tendentious editing on either the topic of the middle east or Islam are wholly and utterly spurious and made under the influence of editors like عمرو بن كلثوم and Supreme Deliciousness who have sought to poison the well when their long-term POV-pushing has been exposed. It would be absurd to allege that my having been blocked indefinitely for raising this issue at ANI and calling out administrators' inaction (a view shared by many administrators themselves) could have been justified. As a result, the blocks and topic ban should be overturned as spurious, It is clear that it has been used multiple times to make baseless argumentum ad hominem claims by abusive editors whose POV-pushing has been exposed. GPinkerton (talk) 18:46, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
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- @GPinkerton: I think this is unlikely to happen as a mid-case action. It could be considered as part of a final decision and might belong in that area. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:26, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
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4)
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- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Questions to the parties
- Arbitrators may ask questions of the parties in this section.
Proposed final decision
Proposals by User:GPinkerton
Proposed principles
Reliability of sources
1) In general, reliable academic sources should be used, with more recent and more reliable sources to be preferred.
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2) {text of Proposed principle}
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Proposed findings of fact
Suitability of references
1) The following sources are suitable sources for the quoted material and the information represented there:
- For background, a basic summary of the history of Syrian Kurdistan can be found, for example, in a review of the 2015 work The Kurds: A Modern History by Michael M. Gunter. The review summarizes Gunter's whole chapter on the Kurds of Syria as follows, including a mention of this very ideological talking point, namely, that Kurds do not belong in what is now Syria:
Under the French mandate after World War I, Syria became an important center for Kurdish political and cultural activism until its independence in 1946. In addition to the Kurds in major urban centers and Kurdish enclaves in northern Syria, Kurdish refugees also arrived from Turkey. A Kurdish nationalist organization, Khoybun, operated in Syria and Lebanon and spearheaded the Ararat Re-bellion (1928-31) against Turkey. Exiled Kurdish nationalists from Turkey played a major role in Syria and Lebanon. The Jaladet, Sureya and Kamuran brothers from the princely Bedirkhan family, for example, led a Kurdish cultural movement. The end of the French mandate and the eventual rise of the Baath regime in Syria created a serious backlash for the Kurds. Gunter indicates that the Baath regime came to view Kurds as a foreign threat to the Arab nation, and it repressed them after the early 1960s. Kurds in Syria, as a result, came to be less known in the West, as compared to their compatriots in Iraq, Turkey and Iran. Some Kurds were stripped of their citizenship in 1962 on the grounds that they supposedly all came from Turkey. Moreover, the state tried to Arabize the Kurdish territories in northern Syria. Gunter adds that the fractured Kurdish political-party system is another reason for the invisibility of the Syrian Kurds until the early 2000s.
— Akturk, Ahmet Serdar (assistant professor of history, Georgia Southern University) (2016). "Review: The Kurds: A Modern History, by Michael M. Gunter. Markus Wiener Publishers, 2015. 256 pages. $26.95, paperback". Middle East Policy. 23 (3): 152–156. doi:10.1111/mepo.12225. ISSN 1475-4967.{{cite journal}}
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Dahlman, Carl (2002-06-01). "The Political Geography of Kurdistan". Eurasian Geography and Economics. 43 (4): 271–299. doi:10.2747/1538-7216.43.4.271. ISSN 1538-7216. Dahlman, Carl (2002-06-01). "The Political Geography of Kurdistan". Eurasian Geography and Economics. 43 (4): 271–299. doi:10.2747/1538-7216.43.4.271. ISSN 1538-7216. Dahlman, Carl (2002-06-01). "The Political Geography of Kurdistan". Eurasian Geography and Economics. 43 (4): 271–299. doi:10.2747/1538-7216.43.4.271. ISSN 1538-7216. Dahlman, Carl (2002-06-01). "The Political Geography of Kurdistan". Eurasian Geography and Economics. 43 (4): 271–299. doi:10.2747/1538-7216.43.4.271. ISSN 1538-7216. |
2. The following sources are weak, insufficiently in-depth, or otherwise unusable sources for the quoted material and the information represented there:
- Storm, Lise (2005). "Ethnonational Minorities in the Middle East Berbers, Kurds, and Palestinians". A Companion to the History of the Middle East. Utrecht: Wiley-Blackwell. p. 475. ISBN 1-4051-0681-6.
The majority of the Kurds in Syria are originally Turkish Kurds, who left Turkey in the 1920s in order to escape the harsh repression of the Kurds in that country. These Kurds were later joined in Syria by a new large group that drifted out of Turkey throughout the interwar period during which the Turkish campaign to assimilate its Kurdish population was at it highest.
- (a three paragraph, half-page treatment in a non-specialist book with vast scope no particular relevance to Syrian Kurdistan)
- Mustapha, Hamza (2018). "The Issue of the Kurds in Syria: Facts, History and Myth". AlMuntaqa. 1 (3): 111–113. doi:10.31430/almuntaqa.1.3.0111. ISSN 2616-8073.
- (a two-page book review by an "Assistant researcher at the Arab Center for Research and Policy Studies and PhD candidate at the University of Exeter." The Beirut-published book's editor is Hezbollah-linked Azmi Bishara, who founded the Arab Center for Research and Policy Studies. The book review is published in AlMuntaqa itself published by ... the Arab Center for Research and Policy Studies. Cosy.)
3. The following sources are irrelevant, outdated, or otherwise unusable sources for the quoted material and the information misrepresented from there:
- De Vaumas, Étienne (1956). "Le peuplement de la Djézireh". Annales de Géographie. 65 (347): 70–72.
Le peuplement de la Djézireh. — Une reconnaissance aérienne et au sol, menée en mai 1925 par A. Poidebard qui a bénéficié en outre de la documentation rassemblée par le Service de Renseignement de Hassetché, permet de se faire une idée précise de l'occupation humaine en Djézireh à la veille de la pacification. Au Nord, à part des Circassiens musulmans (tribu des Tchatchans) établis en 1876 près de Ras el Aïn (villages de Saf eh et de Tell Rouman) , la zone des villages ou des campements fixes formant villages s'étendait d'Arreda (à l'Est de Ras el Aïn) jusqu'aux environs du Tigre sur 130 km de longueur et 15 à 20 km de largeur. Elle était plaquée le long du chemin de fer, c'est-à-dire de la frontière, et habitée par des Kurdes dont les tribus occupaient des territoires perpendiculaires sur cette frontière et à cheval sur elles. Ils cultivaient la partie septentrionale de la Djézireh et poussaient leurs troupeaux en hiver jusqu'au Djebel Sindjar et au Djebel Abd el Aziz. Le Djebel Sindjar était tenu par les Yézidis, population de dialecte kurde et à l'étrange religion. Leurs villages étaient dans la montagne au Sud de laquelle ils nomadisaient l'hiver, payant le Khaoua (impôt de fraternité) aux Chammar. Les vallées du Khabour et du Jagh Jagh, de même que les environs du lac de Khatouniyé et de la source ďel Hol, étaient aux mains des Arabes semi-sédentaires qui utilisaient pour leurs troupeaux les grands espaces nus qui séparaient les vallées. Les grands nomades enfin (les Chammar des Zors) avaient pour terrain de parcours toute la zone située entre Tigre et Sindjar à l'Est, Euphrate et Khabour à l'Ouest, se déplaçant d'une ligne Anah-Bagdad au Sud jusqu'aux approches de la voie ferrée au Nord. Le schéma de l'occupation était donc relativement simple : Kurdes le long de la frontière, Arabes sur le bord des rivières, semi-nomades et nomades partout.
- Simpson, John Hope (1939). The Refugee Problem: Report of a Survey (First ed.). London: Oxford University Press. p. 458. ASIN B0006AOLOA.
- Rondot, Pierre (1936). "Les tribus montagnardes de l'Asie antérieur. Quelques Aspects Sociaux des Populations Kurdes et Assyriennes". Bulletin d'études orientales. 6: 1–50. ISSN 0253-1623.
Le massif montagneux de l'Arménie et du Kurdistan tombe assez brusquement au sud, au delà de Mardine, Nissibin, et Djéziret ibn Omar, vers les steppes de la Djézireh , domaine du nomade arabe. C'est la frontière de deux mondes : tandis que les Arabes, grands nomades dont l'existence est liée à celle du chameau, ne sauraient pénétrer dans la montagne rocailleuse, les Kurdes considèrent avec envie la bordure du steppe, relativement bien arrosé et plus facile à cultiver que la montagne, où ils pourraient pousser leurs moutons et installer quelques cultures. Dès que la sécurité le permet, c'est- à-dire dès que le gouvernement - ou le sédentaire arme- est asses fort pour imposer au Bédouin le respect des cultures, le Kurde descend dans la plaine. Mais la sécurité ne règne pas longtemps, les récoltes ne sont pas toujours bonnes, le climat débilite le montagnard; la plaine "manges" les Kurdes, et il y a flux et reflux.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- I'm going to advise you to just stop right here and not pursue this line of argument. ArbCom is not going to decide which sources are permissible in an article. We resolve behavioral issues only, not content issues. Our task is not to wade into the minutia of sourcing and so on but rather to "break the back" of the behavioral problems thorough appropriate remedies. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:20, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- I very much agree with Beeblebrox. Valereee's source restriction has been included in the evidence, and we may comment on that, but otherwise will not be assessing sources ourselves. --BDD (talk) 15:49, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
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- @Beeblebrox: ArbCom is surely going to have to make a determination as to whether or not these sources are being used tendentiously by the editors accused of doing so in order to push their POV on the Syrian Kurdistan issue. In order to do so, the relevant extracts must be read and arbiters should arbitrate on a.) whether these behavioural issues exist, as I and others allege, and b.) whether the behaviour should be allowed to continue and if not, how. The issue is of two parts; the exemplary tendentiousness at Syrian Kurdistan, and the wider systematic issues with Kurd-related issues throughout Wikipedia. I hope I have demonstrated and others that the cause of both is in large part due to the same handful of editors identified as parties to the case, but beyond them it is generated in no small part by the contentiousness of the issue itself, (subsumed as it is in the larger contentiousness of middle east geopolitics, the Syrian Civil War, etc.), just as Palestine, and the Balkans, and the Caucasus, and the historiography of the Second World War are perennially fertile ground for disruptive editing. GPinkerton (talk) 21:52, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
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- It would be odd for ArbCom to make statements about specific sources in such detail - that sounds absolutely like a content issue. Can you explain why ArbCom should make statements like this instead of leaving it to the community? Is there a long history of failure to agree consensus on sources? If that is because of bad faith on one side then sanctions to address the bad faith editing would seem more appropriate. Also, not at all clear to an outside observer what is wrong with the sources in point 3. (disclaimer: not involved; have not commented previously on Wikipedia; not familiar with the topic area but read ArbCom & ANI for fun) 2A02:C7F:820C:EC00:49A2:C6CD:2E63:71AA (talk) 13:57, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Trying not to get sidetracked by reading ArbCom for fun: the problem with the three sources in point 3 is that they're 65-85 years old, and this subject has abundant recent scholarship. Wikipedia prefers to use the best sources available, and the gold standard is recent scholarship. That's not to say older sources couldn't in theory be used to explain what was being said 85 years ago, but if recent scholars are commenting on what was being said 85 years ago, that would be a better source for that information. And if recent scholars aren't even commenting on what was being said 85 years ago, is there an argument as to whether that information is still even relevant to this encyclopedia article? Not everything anyone ever said about a subject needs to be included in the article about that subject. —valereee (talk) 16:24, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- It would be odd for ArbCom to make statements about specific sources in such detail - that sounds absolutely like a content issue. Can you explain why ArbCom should make statements like this instead of leaving it to the community? Is there a long history of failure to agree consensus on sources? If that is because of bad faith on one side then sanctions to address the bad faith editing would seem more appropriate. Also, not at all clear to an outside observer what is wrong with the sources in point 3. (disclaimer: not involved; have not commented previously on Wikipedia; not familiar with the topic area but read ArbCom & ANI for fun) 2A02:C7F:820C:EC00:49A2:C6CD:2E63:71AA (talk) 13:57, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
Crude personal attacks by عمرو بن كلثوم and Shadow4Dark
2) The baseless and crude personal attacks and casting of aspersions repeatedly engaged in at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kurds_and_Kurdistan/Evidence#GPinkerton_declares_anti-Arab,_anti-Muslim,_anti-Turkish_POV_agenda_and_conspiracy_theories and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kurds_and_Kurdistan/Evidence#GPinkerton_anti-Turkish,_anti-Muslim_rhetoric are beyond the pale and devoid of merit, motivated only by desperation and bad faith. The editors that have made them do not belong on any Wikimedia project.
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- "The editors that have made them do not belong on any Wikimedia project." That's probably a bit harsh, and certainly not language you are going to see in the final decision, if for no other reason than it is out of our jurisdiction to say what other projects should and should not allow. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:30, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
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Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.
No more removal of Kurdish place names
1) {No more removal of Kurdish place names} Experienced editors who oppose the mentioning of Kurdish names, remove them all the time for unsourced or even if sourced. Experienced pro-Kurdish editors don't remove names in Turkish, Farsi or Arabic language for unsourced or even at all. I can't remember any edit of diff for such an aim from an experienced pro-Kurdish editor. If a significant Kurdish population is mentioned in the article, (like if they have had a historical presence or are the current majority, plurality or the second most mentioned population in a location) the name should be encouraged to be sourced but not removed. Repeated removal of the Kurdish name for not mentioning the amount of the population if a Kurdish population is mentioned should lead to a block for racist behavior, removal of only the Kurdish names and leave other languages unsourced as well. This might be something to be drafted in better words by the ArbCom and might be adapted to other ethnic/nationalist conflicts. Maybe a similar remedy already exists for other ethnic conflicts, I don't know.
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- It's more likely that we would make a more general sanction, such as applying 1RR to articles under the scope of the final decision, rather than targeting this one specific thing. Experience has shown that overly-tailored sanctions can be gamed. This is not to say this is entirely without merit, or that everyone sees it exactly the way I do. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:24, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
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Proposed enforcement
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Proposals by User:Supreme Deliciousness
Proposed principles
Baseless accusations
1) Claiming other editors of showing tolerance towards ISIS without evidence is disruptive
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Proposed findings of fact
Unacceptable language
1) GPinkerton has used unacceptable language at Syrian Kurdistan
Evidence: [5]
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Unacceptable behaviour
1) GPinkerton has behaved in an uncooperative and unacceptable way at Syrian Kurdistan
Evidence: [6]
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Toxic environment
1) GPinkertons behavior at Syrian Kurdistan has created a toxic environment
Evidence: [7]
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- Could you elaborate on toxic environment? Can't find any WP guideline on this.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 19:30, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
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Baseless accusations
2) Paradise Chronicle has repeatedly and without evidence claimed other editors of showing tolerance towards ISIS
Evidence:[8]
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- Comment by parties:The second diff within the evidence refers to an edit in which I explain for why I was accused of having called someone a terrorist sympathizer. I apologize for having caused discomfort with the expression "tolerance towards ISIL". More to read on this at Analysis of the Evidence.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 00:02, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
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Detrimental source restriction
2) The source restriction Valereee introduced at Syrian Kurdistan is detrimental
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Unfair behavior
2) Valereee has been unfair towards Supreme Deliciousness
Evidence:[11]
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Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.
Topic ban
1) GPinkerton is banned indefinitely from all articles, discussions, and other content related to Kurds and Kurdistan, broadly construed across all namespaces
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- Comment by parties:Oppose and suggest a lifting of the topic ban. His additions to articles I was involved in are quiet impressive.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 00:15, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
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Lifting of source restriction
2) The detrimental source restriction Valereee introduced at Syrian Kurdistan is lifted
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Warned
2) Paradise Chronicle is warned not to continue making baseless accusations towards other editors
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Proposals by User:Paradise Chronicle
Proposed principles
One must give an explanation on topic (before reverting, or for the inclusion of poorly sourced content)
1) {One must give an explanation on topic (before reverting, or for the inclusion of poorly sourced content)} Some lesser editors (I call them allies) who mostly don't take part in lengthy discussions just revert. Others, also experienced editors, also use to ignore questions and arguments at the talk page. With poorly sourced I mean no academic scholarship. What can be refuted with scholarship should above some obscure sources like sources which don't mention the topic or sources which are unreliable like conspiracy theorists disguised as a journalist of the Hill or disputed or of Think tanks which are deemed as unreliable. This is actually basic Wikipedia but concerning Kurds and Kurdistan this was often not enforced. I discussed for months.
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Proposed findings of fact
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Analysis of evidence
Place here items of evidence (with diffs) and detailed analysis
Bulgaria during World War II is not relating to Kurds but to an event of World War II
Basilica also not
Catholicity as well christian released,
Vashti is biblical
Hagia Sophia is a religious building,
Mehmed the Conqueror is an Ottoman Sultan and the word Kurd is not included in the article
Constantine the Great and Christianity is about a Roman emperors relation to Christianity also doesn't include Kurd or Kurdistan
Murder of Samuel Paty Is about a Murder in France.
Then Kurds are not even the reason for the dispute at these articles, but edit warring.
Paradise Chronicle (talk) 12:20, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
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Analysis by Valereee
I think this diff in SD's rebuttal to GP here is kind of this whole issue in a nutshell: GP has called SD's edits "misrepresenting sources." SD truly believes their POV is correct and their interpretation of sources is correct: that because they can show scholars have referred to Syrian Kurdistan as "a concept" or "an imagined community" -- and SD is quite correct that those types of terms are used often in recent scholarship -- that it provides absolutely compelling evidence, even the necessity, to call Syrian Kurdistan imaginary -- that is: not real. They and others have made this argument many many times at the talk.
This is not bad-faith editing on SD's or the other editors' parts. The issue here to me seems to be that they are so absolutely sure their POV is the literal truth that they are only able to interpret sources in ways that support that POV. It's not bad faith. It's simply absolute knowledge that Syrian Kurdistan doesn't exist except in some people's imaginations and that therefore the sources must support that simple truth. Obviously they wouldn't be offering this diff (and others in the same rebuttal, all backed up by quotes from multiple scholarly sources that they believe prove scholars are calling SK imaginary) as evidence if they didn't think the arbitration committee would see the obvious truth of the matter and vindicate their interpretation. This is the kind of thing that is likely happening with other bits of content at various articles surrounding Kurds and Kurdistan. —valereee (talk) 14:04, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
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On the removal of sourced material for which PC was blocked before
Yes I was blocked for ca 1.30 hours for not reverting to this version The version I reverted to include the same lines, but they are from a self revert not from a restoration of the previous version. That I self reverted was also the reason for why the 3RR report was closed as a self revert.
Amr Ibn following insisted that I revert (others would use the term canvass) further which I did on the encouragement of El C. I was deblocked following the confusion was resolved. Both versions don't include the two quotes I removed this time.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:46, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
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- Amr Ibn has reverted by far the most at the Tel Abyad page, has achieved two blocks while never having been blocked. I also included a Wikilink for Kurdification, which was reverted, tooParadise Chronicle (talk) 17:46, 9 February 2021 (UTC).
- The root of the cause for Amr Ibns reverts was the disruptive sockpuppet Konli17 that was edit warring:[12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20]. This sockpuppet casued great damage to a a lot of editors across several Kurd related articles. The sock started the entire disruption at Syrian Kurdistan, Arbitrators do not let this sock win. Also, PC, I did not revert your wikilink to kurdification, its still there. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:57, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Amr Ibn has reverted by far the most at the Tel Abyad page, has achieved two blocks while never having been blocked. I also included a Wikilink for Kurdification, which was reverted, tooParadise Chronicle (talk) 17:46, 9 February 2021 (UTC).
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Analysis on the lack of civility through the Tell Abyad evidence
Presented by Paradise Chronicle (further on PC) as well as Amr Ibn Kulthum (further Amr Ibn).
PC wanted to show Tell Abyad as an example of the Civility in Kurdish related articles, Amr Ibn for the removal of sourced info and the removal of content I was blocked for
Tell Abyad is a good example to show the long lasting dispute on the presentation of the Kurds as well as the behavior of the participants in Kurdish articles. Amr Ibns main argument for the inclusion of the quotes was sourced. This was in May 2020 the case and also in the recent ArbCom case
diffMay 2020
diffMay 2020
diffMay 2020
diff revert from an edit by Applodion in June
Sourced at talk page in October 2020
and at the current ArbCom Case
Amr Ibn hasn't answered on questions to terms like unilaterally and formally
since June 2020 when I brought this up. I don't what you think
is another expression of his in the Tell Abyad discussion as explained in the evidence section.
difffor unilaterally
diff for formally
You can use the search function by pressing control/command + f and dial Unilaterally and Formally, all are from me when addressing the issue of the renaming of the city and unilaterally detaching it from the Raqqa Governorate.
To suggest that "the Kurds" have formally renamed the city into a Kurdish name
(Kurdish was forbidden before, the Kurds around the YPG and the PYD just allowed it to be spoken and written) used Latin script understandable to Turkish Kurds instead of Arabic script
(Latin and Arabic script are present in traffic signs all over Syria images from Wikicommons) and unilaterally detached it from an "existing" Syrian Raqqa Governorate
(which before and after was called Raqqa Wilaya by ISIL and large parts of it were controlled by ISIL until the end of 2016,Raqqa fell in October 2017) in a dominant fashion of a quote is not NPOV. I agree to text in our own Wikipedia language which includes accused by (in 2015)
or according to and include a Kurdifying wikilink, but not to prominent long quotes with several inaccuracies.
The Washington Institute quote by Fabrice Balanche is anyway WP:UNDUE as it is not a reliable source per se according to WP:RS Archive 48 nor is Fabrice Balanche a notable figure or citizen of Tell Abyad.
Reasons I brought forward for the removal of the quotes, besides several reports at the noticeboards:
diff Removal of Kurdwatch in July 2020 quote per WP:cite and WP:Quotations No author can be mentioned. The Kurdwatch quote is presently removed.
diff removed quotes per WP:ONUS September 2020
diff WP:UNDUE and MOS:QUOTEPOV in September 2020
diff Removal of WINEP and WaPo quotes in October 2020 for not addressing the points I made at the talk page
diff October 2020 Remove quotes as no response at talk page
diff January 2021 to see what happens if the eyes of the ArbCom are present, (not in the edit summary)
All except for the WINEP, WP:RSN argument I have brought in discussions before as well. Konli17 has argued similarly but Amr Ibn and others have ignored questions several times. Amr Ibn also ignored questions specifically directed at him. Just check with command + f and dial Amr?.
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Analysis of Violations of BLP by PC
BLP as to my understanding refers to biographies of living people and Harun Yahya is really described as someone who refutes Darwinism and being accused of anti-semitism on wikipedia. A version of the 26th of January is this one. Eva Savelsberg has no article yet and really attends SETA (Turkish Government Think Tank of which Erdogan spox Ibrahim Kalin was the founding director) forums. This is my defense and it is yours to judge.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:20, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
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Rebuttal of the Evidence provided by Amr Ibn at Whitewashing and self-declared POV
Amr Ibn Kulthum and ThePharoah17 tried to include several sources not mentioning the Kurdistan Communities Union (KCK) for a phrase including the KCK. Then they also wanted to include Harun Yahya, a well known Turkish conspiracy theorist and an advocate of Islamic creationism disguised as Bill Rehkop of
The Hill (newspaper). This all in the lead of the pro-Kurdish PYD
diff sources used there (beside Harun Yahya) were for example
diff Council of Foreign Relations (think tank) not mentioning the KCK
diff Reuters not mentioning the KCK
diff Hoover (think tank) article by Fabrice Balanche not mentioning the KCK
After serious attempts to include those sources for the KCK, I clarified them, revealing authors like Harun Yahya and Fabrice Balanche. They
reverted again. There was a
(without Admins involved) after which I was finally able to remove Harun Yahya and the sources not mentioning the KCK.
The POV accusation refers to a question on women's rights in relation to ISIL which I asked on the 25 November 2020, the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women and I fully stand behind this question. Also behind my statement on the Gender-egalitarian and women empowering etc. Government in the AANES and the SDF who fought against ISIL.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:59, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
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Analysis of evidence provided by Paradise Chronicle (PC) and Supreme Deliciousness (SD) on the approach on ISIL and Kurds
When Amr Ibn Kulthum (Amr Ibn) refers to ISIL they use the control
, and not occupied. From Supreme Deliciousness (SD) I haven't found any edit about ISIL territory, neither under control or occupied. But both Amr Ibn and SD refer to the areas of Syrian Kurdistan which are Governed by the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria (AANES) of which most areas are captured/liberated from ISIL as Kurdish occupied, occupied by Kurds or occupied by a (pro-)Kurdish organization
.
diff from evidence Being occupied by MILITARY FORCE...
difffrom evidence The areas in your maps are occupied by military force
diff The YPG-linked PKK and ISIS are both classified as terrorist organizations by the United States and the European Union. Is one really different from the other?
by ThePharoah in the discussion about the move attempt from Syrian Kurdistan to Kurdish occupied regions in Syria in November 2020
diff "Western Kurdistan (Rojava)" on the area occupied by kurds
by SD
diff There are no "kurdish areas" in Syria, they are Kurdish-occupied
by SD in October 2019
diff So if YPG occupied Raqqa
by Attar Aram syria
diff military occupation by YPG militias
at Hasakah by Amr Ibn January 2017
[diff] I guess this should be renamed to "The Kurdish occupation of northeastern Syria"
by Amr Ibn at Rojava conflict in August 2020
Together with the Move attempt of Syrian Kurdistan to Kurdish occupied Region of Syria during the ISIL led Siege of Kobane and that I haven't found any ISIL territory deemed as occupied (by military force) by the editors in question I translated this into a surprising tolerance towards ISIS for which I after was accused
of having called someone a terrorist sympathizer by Swarm and
also Thepharoah17 for which an apology would nice, too.
I apologize for having caused discomfort with the expression "tolerance towards ISIL". But I let the ArbCom judge over the yearlong and repeated classifying of ISIL liberated areas as Kurdish occupied and their move attempts from articles related to Kurds and Kurdistan to Kurdish occupied...Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:45, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
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Proposals by User:عمرو بن كلثوم
Proposed remedies by AIK (عمرو بن كلثوم)
- Given the previous edit-warring, combative behavior of GPinkerton during this case, personal attacks, canvassing, gaming the system, party intimidation and evidence of disruptive evidence and non-collaborative mentality, it is time to reinforce the indefinitely block this user who has created so many battle grounds across a wide range of article.
- User Paradise Chronicle should be topic banned for one year, until they prove that they can stop their edit-warring behavior. I am optimistic that they will learn their lesson from this case and come back to positively contribute to this area.
- Restore the Syrian Kurdistan page to the version of 11 November 2020 (meaningful date).
- Drop the innovated rules about old scholarship that were meant to prevent the presentation of a balanced article.
- Close this case as soon as practical and stop wasting everyone's time.
- As a few admins requested, create a 1RR for Kurdish-related topics, and impose discretionary sanctions.
Thank you to the ArbCom members and the Admins who participated here for your time, and sorry for the lengthy submission. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 09:39, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
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