Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mass killings under communist regimes (4th nomination)

Mass killings under Communist regimes

AfDs for this article:

• Articles for deletion/Mass killings under Communist regimes
• Articles for deletion/Mass killings under Communist regimes (2nd nomination)
• Articles for deletion/Mass killings under Communist regimes (3rd nomination)

Mass killings under communist regimes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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And under its previous name:

AfDs for this article:

• Articles for deletion/Communist genocide
• Articles for deletion/Communist genocide (2nd nomination)

Communist genocide (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log) (moved at start of process of second AfD to "Mass Killings")

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

The article begins:

<!-- Introduction, criteria, and their criticism -->
Various authors have written about the events of 20th-century communist regimes, which have resulted in excess deaths, such as excess mortality in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin. Some authors posit that there is a communist death toll, whose death estimates vary widely, depending on the definitions

… that is, the title is not in bold, it is explicated. The title is a synthesis, a pat answer to any tangentially relatable proposition. The proposal is that the page be deleted, with any verifiable facts that are not borrowed from the other articles be moved there. Some notes, more as I remember, but will argue they support deletion: the article has existed in one form or another for many years; a series of previous AfDs have been proposed [10+ years ago]; that article traffic is significant; there is currently another open dispute resolution underway; personally have every reason to despise Communist regimes {as I define them]. ~ cygnis insignis 14:22, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

• Delete as synthesis, and a violation of WP:NPOV policy. There is no doubt that 'communist regimes' as defined in the article have perpetrated many atrocities, but that isn't the issue. The question that needs to be asked is whether 'Mass killings under communist regimes' is a legitimate subject for an encyclopaedic article. And I would have to suggest that the article in question does little to justify that claim. A few writers have certainly seen it as a legitimate subject for discussion, but by and large, credible mainstream histography tends to neither lump all 'communist regimes' together as a subject for scrutiny when discussing 'mass killing' or to treat them as some sort of special case requiring unique analysis. Proper historiography discusses events in context, and without simplistic presuppositions that events are driven by any specific ideology. As the endless disputes on the article talk page make entirely clear, the article, and what exactly it is that it is supposed to be discussing, has long been a subject of contention amongst Wikipedia contributors. Rather than citing credible histographic sources on such subjects, the debate has instead revolved around exactly what constitutes a 'mass killing', or a 'communist regime'. Debate almost invariably focussed on contributors own arguments and opinions, since sources discussing this are sparse, and generally on the fringes of histography. It is absolutely imperative that Wikipedia covers mass killings, regardless of who perpetuates them and what their motivations were, or are, but this article, with its loaded title and its endless wars over what exactly Wikipedia contributors can or cannot include as a 'killing' is exactly the wrong way to go about it. What Wikipedia should be doing is covering, in relevant articles about specific subjects, such atrocities, sourced to mainstream academia, and written in a manner that does not spoon-feed readers over-generalising and ideologically-driven conclusions that the sources concerned do not themselves support. Let the facts about individual events speak for themselves, and let readers decide for themselves whether they wish to blame 'communist regimes' for such crimes, or to instead blame them on the broader fallibilities of a humanity that was perpetuating such atrocities long before 'communists' arrived, and may well, if a more enlightened discourse isn't available, be perpetuating similar atrocities long after such 'regimes' have gone. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:00, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
• Delete in sum per WP:SYNTH, as explained in some great detail in the nom, the above !vote, the long talk page discussions, and the prior AFDs. I am looking for multiple RS that give significant coverage to (1) "mass killings" (and not "excess deaths" or anything else) under (2) "communist regimes" (and not "Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot"; not some communist regimes, not "totalitarian states", but "communist regimes"). I do no believe there is enough RS that exists that covers this topic. Rather, the article is based on sources that talk about death in communist regimes generally, or mass killings by specific regimes that called themselves communist (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot). But to combine it by ideology, without sources that explicitly do so, is SYNTH. At bottom, the view that the ideology of communism is somehow inherently violent is WP:FRINGE anti-communist POV pushing. Levivich 15:47, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

• Keep, it is a notable topic and there are enough WP:RS sources out there written on the subject: most notable probably the books on the subject Red Holocaust (2009 book), The Black Book of Communism (published by Routledge and Harvard University Press respectively), and also Helen Fein's chapter on Soviet and Communist Genocides and Democide in Genocide: a sociological perspective ISBN 9780803988293, Communist mass killings by Benjamin A. Valentino, R. J. Rummel who has been using a term communist democide; not to mention "Communist genocide" alone gives 441 returns on google books and 75 on google scholar. Should be more than enough resources out there to write a good article about the subject that was titled "Mass killings under Communist regimes" as a compromise descriptive title derived via consensus, see Talk:Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes/FAQ —Nug (talk) 20:40, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I just wanted to comment that this is a very bad argument. Finding sources that use the phrase "[adjective] genocide", or similar terms, is extremely easy. Besides "Communist genocide", there are also hundreds of Google Books results for "Capitalist genocide" [1], "Conservative genocide" [2], "Liberal genocide" [3], "Republican genocide" [4], "Democratic genocide" [5], "Right-wing genocide" [6], "Left-wing genocide" [7], or even (to use a different kind of adjective) "European genocide" [8]. But Wikipedia doesn't have a page called Mass killings in Europe for example, despite the fact that mass killings certainly HAVE happened in Europe and there are even books about them. Like this one for instance: "The Holocaust and Genocides in Europe" [9] (a book grouping together the Holocaust, the Armenian Genocide, mass killings in the Soviet Union, and the genocides in the former Yugoslavia). You can find scholars grouping together genocides and mass killings in all sorts of ways: by ideology, by continent, by cultural area, by religion, by historical period, and so on. The fact that a few have grouped Communist mass killings together is as relevant as the fact that others have grouped European mass killings together.

The first source you cite is a chapter of a book entitled 'Genocide: A Sociological Perspective', and as such rather illustrates my point regarding how mass killings are generally discussed in academia - mass killing as a general topic, rather than one partitioned by the ideology of the perpetrators. As for Valentino and Rummel, these are the same authors that have been repeatedly cited for many years in discussions over the disputed article, and the fact that they are being cited yet again surely illustrates just how isolated from mainstream historiography they have become. And as for what the article FAQ says, that isn't even remotely relevant to an AfD discussion, for far too many reasons to be worth explaining... AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:37, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

• Note to Admin: User:Levivich, who !voted to delete, appears to be blocking any attempts to improve the article[10]. It is entirely permissible for those who support keep to attempt to improve the article while it is under AfD. On the other hand, edits during an AfD by those who support deletion is disruptive as it can be construed as WP:GAME to make an article worse to facilitate deletion. --Nug (talk) 21:31, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Please don't disrupt this discussion with claims about other contributor's behaviour elsewhere. Raise it at ANI or whatever if you like, but not here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:41, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

It is a valid concern that is correctly called out here on what is and is not permissible. --Nug (talk) 21:54, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

If it is a 'valid concern', it would surely make more sense to raise it somewhere where an admin might see it in a timely fashion. Though before doing that, I'd recommend reading up on talk page procedure, and on who is or isn't permitted to edit articles being discussed at AfD. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:09, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Reverting to a lead from two months ago, which has serious VERIFY issues (stating all events were mass killings as fact, etc.), and has been acknowledged as problematic at WP:DRNMKUCR, are by no means an 'improvement.' Plus, the AfD is about this stable version, and it makes no sense whatsoever to edit while the AfD is ongoing. Davide King (talk) 22:12, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

The AfD isn't about any specific 'version'. It is about whether the topic (if there actually is one, outside of Wikipedia and a few marginal writers) should have an article at all. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree, but I wanted to point out that is the current version addressed in the AfD and we should not edit the article in the meantime, and is my view that you are correct and Nug did a wrong thing by doing that edit/revert, with the AfD ongoing. Davide King (talk) 22:20, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

 Comment: Not 'voting' yet, see my rebuke of Nug's here. Davide King (talk) 22:04, 22 November 2021 (UTC) One of the reasons why such an article has been kept for so long (three no consensus, two keep) is perhaps because "per source" arguments are taken too much at face value, and in my link I will show they do not support MKuCR and/or misread, failing basic VERIFY, which is even worse than NPOV. [Edited to add] Davide King (talk) 22:25, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Collapsed discussion about suspending AfD

I propose to suspend this discussion This article is a subject of DR. It seems we should respect the time and efforts of the DR discussion's participants. I already notified them, and proposed to develop a joint position about that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:16, 22 November 2021 (UTC) Sorry, but is there anything in Wikipedia policy or practice that suggests that particular contributors can 'suspend' an AfD discussion while they debate things amongst themselves? If there is, I don't think I've ever come across it, and frankly, in this particular context - where the same going-around-in-circles debate has been going on for years and getting nowhere - would have to suggest that this would be entirely inappropriate. Let the broader community make a decision, as they do with every other deletion debate, and find another forum for arguing eternally amongst yourselves afterwards if that is what you really wish to do. Nobody owns this article, and nobody has the right to exclude outsiders from debate on this long-standing and contentious article, or any other. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:25, 22 November 2021 (UTC) (edit conflict)I am not "suspending" this AfD. My post is a friendly request to suspend it. There are two reasons for that. First, as a participant of the DR process, I am not in a position to express my opinion here. I think, that is the case for other DR participants too. Therefore, we all become removed from this AfD process, and we should either suspend the DR (and wait for this AfD's outcome), or vise versa. Second, my opinion strongly depends on the course of development of the DR discussion. Depending on that, I can present either strong arguments in support of deletion, or equally strong arguments in support of keeping this article. However, I cannot do that right now, because the DR process in in progress.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:17, 22 November 2021 (UTC) Collapsed not due to claims to authority but simple for readability purpose and to not ruin the AfD, which is indeed a possible and good solution. AfD is open, has never been put on hold, and this should not discourage other users; it is simply a discussion about how to act in light of the DRN. While I can understand and see AnyTheGrump's frustration, and they are right on this, Siebert is also right. We all may agree to put this on hold until the moderator's next comment — if they think Cloud200 and Nug have exhausted their arguments and did not persuade them that a rewrite is extreme, and AfD could be a solution, we may try and see if consensus finally changed towards deletion; or we may have a RfC about the topic first (we need to agree on the main topic; if we cannot agree, AfD is the natural next step); if consensus has really shifted towards deletion, then this AfD should probably go ahead to certify it. Davide King (talk) 19:11, 22 November 2021 (UTC) Edited to clarify. Davide King (talk) 20:33, 22 November 2021 (UTC) Siebert and I have been the biggest proponents of recognization of such issues (e.g. we were the main users who endless argued for such problems, which have now been recognized by the moderator and simply ignored by the other side), and have proposed deletion if such issues simply cannot be solved, so I think your comments apply more to those who stubbornly reject them and I am really tired of debating them. I can also see Siebert's argument for suspending this, perhaps waiting for the moderator's next comment; perhaps now there may be consensus for deletion, which does not preclude a NPOV rewrite with a better defined and clear topic, without OR/SYNTH; considering the other side has continued to reject that there are problems, which have been recognized by the moderator, there really cannot be any further rational discussion there; the next round should be how to fix the issues, and deletion can be a solution, since Siebert and I have been proponents of a rewrite — that can be achieved by either deleting the article first, or having the moderator give the green light for a rewrite or a RfC about a rewrite. Still, we (I mean all of us) may agree to put this in hold until the moderator's next round, especially if they find the other's side arguments not persuasive. Davide King (talk) 19:11, 22 November 2021 (UTC) Who exactly is 'we' , and on what authority can anyone 'put this on hold'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:16, 22 November 2021 (UTC) See my previous post Paul Siebert (talk) 19:17, 22 November 2021 (UTC) Yeah, well see mine, and take note that I consider this attempt to hijack an AfD by participants in a colossal time-sink to be improper, and that I also consider the use of fancy formatting and collapes text as a claim to authority to be even more so. Unless and until this AfD is closed according to accepted Wikipedia procedure, it will remain open, and any further attempts at out-of-process disruption are likely to be reported as such. Either participate in the AfD in the proper manner, or go away and argue amongst yourselves - we don't need further juvenile Wikilawyering time-sinks here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:25, 22 November 2021 (UTC) Who exactly is "we"? Paul Siebert (talk) 19:30, 22 November 2021 (UTC) And, there is a third reason to suspend it. I suspect many users may argue that the article may undergo a significant change as a result of the ongoing DR, and, before making a decision about deletion, it is desirable to see what exactly is proposed to delete. Therefore, if you don't want your AfD to be closed as premature, I suggest you to wait for the DR's outcome. If the DR will fail to find any common solution, that will be a strong argument in favour of deletion (for one interim conclusion of this DR is: all parties agree that the article has severe problems, and if the parties fail to come to any positive consensus, that means these problems are unlikely to be resolved). In contrast, if we appear to be capable of proposing some mutually acceptable solution, that will be a strong argument to keep the article. That is why it is important to wait for DR's outcome. Paul Siebert (talk) 19:28, 22 November 2021 (UTC) Please provide a link to any Wikipedia policy or guideline that states that an AfD can be suspended while a subset of contributors attempt (yet again, after over a decade) to come to a 'consensus' that the broader community is under no obligation to comply with anyway. And for the record, it isn't 'my' AfD. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:57, 22 November 2021 (UTC) I disagree about that. AFDs are decided by the notability of the topic, not the state of the article. The question is whether any article at the title "Mass killings under communist regimes" can be written, at all. My !voting delete means I don't think there is any article that should exist at that title (because no sources support that particular topic). Levivich 19:56, 22 November 2021 (UTC) Well said. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:02, 22 November 2021 (UTC) Since Nug !voted (I am not sure how correct that is, since the DRN is still ongoing, albeit it has been moved at WP:DRNMKUCR; it needs to be put on hold). I would ask if Robert McClenon, provided Cloud200 and Siebert also agree to put the DRN on hold and move forward with the AfD, could be the moderator/closure of this AfD, as they have come to know the article's issues and arguments from both sides; they may take a break from reading our stuff, and simply taking the time to summarize closure when everything is done. Davide King (talk) 20:57, 22 November 2021 (UTC) User:Paul Siebert - First, I have changed your heading Comments from second-level to fourth-level. The title of an AFD is itself a third-level heading in the list of AFDs, so that a second-level heading confuses the log. You were not expected to know that. Second, I wrote, about sixteen hours ago, "if they think that an AFD is in order at this time, they might as well initiate it now, and I will put this DRN on hold again." I was referring to a participant in the DRN, but my comment had to do with any nominator. I will suspend the DRN. An AFD takes precedence over all other forms of content dispute resolution. I have already said that the DRN may last a few months. The AFD will run for one to three weeks. The possibility of improving the article can and should be discussed in the AFD. I will suspend the DRN, which is more feasible than suspending the AFD for a few months. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:17, 22 November 2021 (UTC) User:Davide King - I will put the DRN on hold. I am not an administrator and will not close the AFD, but I will observe and comment in the AFD. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:20, 22 November 2021 (UTC) That makes sense and I understand, thank you for all your effort. Davide King (talk) 21:27, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. I must say that the current version of the article appears to be in a rather sorry state, but the topic easily passes WP:GNG. This version of the article from January 2021 appears to be significantly better with the exception of the lead being rather short. In any case, the coverage in other sources contained in that January 2021 version is much more than enough for notability of the topic. And, since GNG is based on substantial coverage in multiple independent reliable sources. I'll give three:
  • Stéphane Courtois; Nicolas Werth; Jean-Louis Panné; Andrzej Paczkowski; Karel Bartošek; Jean-Louis Margolin (1999). Mark Kramer (ed.). The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression. Harvard University Press. ISBN 0674076087.
  • Valentino, Benjamin A. (2013). "Communist Mass Killings: The Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia". Final Solutions. Cornell University Press. pp. 91–151.
  • Fein, Helen (1993). "Soviet and Communist Genocides and "Democide"". "Genocide: A Sociological Perspective". Sage Publications. pp. 75–78. ISBN 0803988303.

Many more sources are listed above, in the article currently, and are available more generally. Per WP:SOURCETYPES, [w]hen available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources. I really am shocked at the lack of a WP:BEFORE on this; the topic clearly passes WP:GNG to the extent that a plenitude of high-quality academic works reference it. And, the fact that the article has been muddled up and its quality has been degraded over the past ten months or so isn't a valid deletion reason. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 23:33, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

• Keep Again? We've been through this several times already. Well sourced, notable etc etc etc. Volunteer Marek 23:35, 22 November 2021 (UTC)