Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 December 25
December 25
Category:Santali-speaking people by occupation
- Propose merging Category:Santali-speaking people by occupation to Category:Santali language
- Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one category in here Mason (talk) 20:51, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:03, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Category:Bestselling Swedish-language authors
- Propose merging Category:Bestselling Swedish-language authors to Category:Swedish-language writers
- Nominator's rationale: Non-defining. Bestselling category is vague/not-defining. Mason (talk) 20:42, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Merge, subjective inclusion criterion. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:04, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Category:19th-century referees and umpires
- Propose deleting Category:19th-century referees and umpires (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Propose merging Category:19th-century baseball umpires to Category:Baseball umpires
- Nominator's rationale: Only covers one century and has, in turn, only one subcategory. Merge subcat with its parent category and delete the "19th-century referees and umpires". Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:04, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose merge of Category:19th-century baseball umpires, the fact that there aren't 20th-century and 21st-century categories is not decisive. A 19th-century category is relevant for historical purposes, which would not apply to the 20th and 21st century. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:31, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle, understood per you responses to another nomination. I'm fine with keeping Category:19th-century baseball umpires but I would still say delete Category:19th-century referees and umpires since "baseball umpires" is the only category in it. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:43, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Fair enough with regards to deletion of Category:19th-century referees and umpires. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:45, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle, understood per you responses to another nomination. I'm fine with keeping Category:19th-century baseball umpires but I would still say delete Category:19th-century referees and umpires since "baseball umpires" is the only category in it. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:43, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Category:Armenian Eastern Catholics
- Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. This is clean-up after this earlier discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:53, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Smasongarrison and Fayenatic london: courtesy ping to participants in previous discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:57, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Category:Martial artists
- Propose merging Category:19th-century martial artists to Category:Martial artists
- Propose merging Category:18th-century martial artists to Category:Martial artists
- Propose merging Category:17th-century martial artists to Category:Martial artists
- Propose merging Category:16th-century martial artists to Category:Martial artists
- Nominator's rationale: Has very few articles; does not help in navigation. Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:50, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Yinweiaiqing: as the creator of these categories, you may give it a try to populate these categories fully. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:01, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle, they also created similarly underpopulated Category:19th-century wrestlers (and so on until the 16th-century). Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:13, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Category:19th-century players of American football
- Nominator's rationale: Covers only one century and doesn't help in navigation. Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:44, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose, the fact that there aren't 20th-century and 21st-century categories is not decisive. A 19th-century category is relevant for historical purposes, which would not apply to the 20th and 21st century. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:06, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle, I noticed a similar Category:19th-century baseball players. If that is the case, I have no objection to keeping either. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:19, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Category:19th-century tennis players
- Propose deleting Category:19th-century tennis players (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Propose deleting Category:19th-century female tennis players (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Propose deleting Category:19th-century male tennis players (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Nominator's rationale: Delete categories; only covers one century;
no other sport has a category by century. Omnis Scientia (talk) 17:16, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Comment.
no other sport has a category by century
- I've just taken a look at Category:19th-century_sportspeople and I see "19th-century chess players", "19th-century martial artists" etc. Deltaspace42 (talk • contribs) 19:00, 25 December 2023 (UTC)- @Deltaspace42, I did notice that but a long while after I nominated this! I've cut it out. Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:53, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose, the fact that there aren't 20th-century and 21st-century categories is not decisive. A 19th-century category is relevant for historical purposes, which would not apply to the 20th and 21st century. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:29, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Keep -- We deleted a lot of 20th century categories some years ago, becasue they were being used for a current/past distinction, which we do not allow. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:02, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Category:Tennis people
- Propose merging Category:Women tennis executives to Category:Tennis executives
- Propose merging Category:Women tennis umpires to Category:Tennis umpires
- Nominator's rationale: Merge to parent categories. Does not apply to a lot of people. Omnis Scientia (talk) 15:47, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Dual merge per WP:OCEGRS, also to Category:Women sports executives and administrators and Category:Women referees and umpires respectively. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:34, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle, I've already done so manually. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:51, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Ah ok, in that case rename per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:00, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle, I've already done so manually. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:51, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Category:Women referees and umpires
- Propose deleting Category:Women American football officials (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Propose merging Category:Women National Football League officials to Category:National Football League officials and Category:American women referees and umpires
- Nominator's rationale: Delete/merge. Only one category layer. Omnis Scientia (talk) 15:39, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Comment one female category might be justified because (or if) the officials are generally male. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:04, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Category:Politicians born in Kocaeli
- Nominator's rationale: "Born in" is not defining in this context. When it comes to politicians, the defining geographic intersection is not where they were born, it's where they did politics. Bearcat (talk) 14:29, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Delete. Useless categories, also instances of WP:NARROWCAT and WP:OCLOCATION. Deltaspace42 (talk • contribs) 14:38, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:38, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Merge first to Category:People from Kocaeli. The current category is too specific. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:07, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Category:People from New York City by neighborhood
- Propose merging Category:Musicians from Washington Heights, Manhattan to Category:People from Washington Heights, Manhattan and Category:Musicians from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Writers from the East Village, Manhattan to Category:People from the East Village, Manhattan and Category:Writers from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Actors from Greenwich Village to Category:People from Greenwich Village and Category:Actors from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Artists from Greenwich Village to Category:People from Greenwich Village and Category:Artists from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Musicians from Greenwich Village to Category:People from Greenwich Village and Category:Musicians from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Writers from Greenwich Village to Category:People from Greenwich Village and Category:Writers from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Actors from the Lower East Side to Category:People from the Lower East Side and Category:Actors from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Politicians from the Lower East Side to Category:People from the Lower East Side and Category:Politicians from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Actors from the Upper East Side to Category:People from the Upper East Side and Category:Actors from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Businesspeople from the Upper East Side to Category:People from the Upper East Side and Category:Businesspeople from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Politicians from the Upper East Side to Category:People from the Upper East Side and Category:Politicians from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Writers from the Upper East Side to Category:People from the Upper East Side and Category:Writers from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Actors from the Upper West Side to Category:People from the Upper West Side and Category:Actors from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Artists from the Upper West Side to Category:People from the Upper West Side and Category:Artists from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Musicians from the Upper West Side to Category:People from the Upper West Side and Category:Musicians from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Writers from the Upper West Side to Category:People from the Upper West Side and Category:Writers from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Actors from Harlem to Category:People from Harlem and Category:Actors from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Artists from Harlem to Category:People from Harlem and Category:Artists from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Lawyers from Harlem to Category:People from Harlem and Category:Lawyers from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Musicians from Harlem to Category:People from Harlem and Category:Musicians from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Politicians from Harlem to Category:People from Harlem and Category:Politicians from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Sportspeople from Harlem to Category:People from Harlem and Category:Sportspeople from Manhattan
- Propose merging Category:Writers from Harlem to Category:People from Harlem and Category:Writers from Manhattan
- Nominator's rationale: Narrow category targets per
WP:NARROWCATWP:OC. No need to further categorize occupations by neighborhoods when they are already categorized by boroughs. Dual merge to parent categories. (edit: added to my rationale) Omnis Scientia (talk) 10:03, 25 December 2023 (UTC)- Note: have expanded nominations to add similar categorizations from other NYC boroughs. Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:50, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose. Merge. Changed my opinion, probably not the case of WP:NARROWCAT, but it is the case of WP:OCLOCATION, I've just taken a closer look at the articles and noticed that many just briefly lived in these neighborhoods inside Manhattan. (Original text: Doesn't seem too narrow with 20-40 pages. Category:Musicians from Harlem even has over 100 pages). Deltaspace42 (talk • contribs) 11:50, 25 December 2023 (UTC)- @Deltaspace42, narrow/overcategorized in that people from NYC neighborhoods shouldn't be further categorized by occupations when they are already categorized by occupations with respect to boroughs. I don't know whether WP:NARROWCAT applies but WP:OC definitely does. Omnis Scientia (talk) 12:38, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- In the case of the "actors" categories, they should be manually merged to Category:Male actors from Manhattan and Category:Actresses from Manhattan. Similarly "writers" categories should be manually merged to the appropriate subcategories in Category:Writers from New York City. And so on. Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:04, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Omnis Scientia, yeah, I change my opinion, I shouldn't have just looked at the WP:NARROWCAT and the page count. Deltaspace42 (talk • contribs) 13:20, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- In the case of the "actors" categories, they should be manually merged to Category:Male actors from Manhattan and Category:Actresses from Manhattan. Similarly "writers" categories should be manually merged to the appropriate subcategories in Category:Writers from New York City. And so on. Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:04, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Deltaspace42, narrow/overcategorized in that people from NYC neighborhoods shouldn't be further categorized by occupations when they are already categorized by occupations with respect to boroughs. I don't know whether WP:NARROWCAT applies but WP:OC definitely does. Omnis Scientia (talk) 12:38, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Category:Emigrants from the Principality of Montenegro
- Nominator's rationale: Upmerge. No need to make the distinction between political regimes Mason (talk) 00:33, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- I am neutral about merging as such, but the first target can be stricken anyway because both articles already are in Category:Montenegrin emigrants to the United States. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:18, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Category:Hazzans
- Propose renaming Category:Hazzans to Category:Hazzanim
- Propose renaming Category:LGBT hazzans to Category:LGBT hazzanim
- Propose renaming Category:Israeli hazzans to Category:Israeli hazzanim
- Propose renaming Category:Viennese hazzans to Category:Viennese hazzanim
- Propose renaming Category:Women hazzans to Category:Women hazzanim
- Nominator's rationale The Hebrew plural of hazzan is hazzanim. Since the singular Hebrew hazzan is being used on Wikipedia (as opposed to the English "cantor"), then the plural should be used as well. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 09:13, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- Comment, the Hazzan article uses "cantors" in plural. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:28, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, but the article title and category title do not. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:09, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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- Oppose. Unnecessary renaming, wiktionary says both are acceptable:
plural hazzans or hazzanim
). Moreover, there is an article: Timeline of women hazzans. If the categories are renamed, we should also rename this article. Deltaspace42 (talk • contribs) 12:05, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Category:Deaths in British India
- Propose redirecting Category:Deaths in British India to Category:Deaths in India
- Propose merging Category:Suicides in British India to Category:Suicides in India
- Propose merging Category:Disease-related deaths in British India to Category:Disease-related deaths in India
- Nominator's rationale: Like Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_November_17#Category:Deaths_in_the_German_Empire this intersection between time period, nation, and death is not helpful as there are more specific death categories in the parent category. Mason (talk) 15:43, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- At minimum Category:Deaths in British India should be containerized, but the nomination is ok too. The last category, if not kept, should be plainly deleted instead of merged because all articles are already in Category:Deaths from pneumonia in India. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:36, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Category:Kuni no miyatsuko
- Propose renaming Category:Kuni no miyatsuko to Category:Kuni no miyatsuko families
- Propose renaming Category:Kuni no miyatsuko position holders to ?????
- Propose renaming Category:Kuni_no_miyatsukoates to ?????
- Nominator's rationale: I already created two awkward split categories of Category:Kuni no miyatsuko position holders and Category:Kuni_no_miyatsukoates which also might need renaming
Kuni no MIyatsuko is an ancient JApanese noble title. Lets talk about it in analogy to a count
Category:Kuni_no_miyatsuko is countly families and titles. Category:Kuni no miyatsuko position holders is counts Category:Kuni_no_miyatsukoates is counties (places ruled by a count)
All three need some kind of renaming
This is all rather awkward and clumsy but we need to make the distinction. IT is also worth noting Japanese wikipedia does not make the distinction, so there titleholders, titles, families, and lands are all grouped together
At the moment all articles about titles are in reference to a single family with the title. While this may not always be the case in the indefinite future, I see a split in this direction as not being necessary right now, and likely never necessary since I am unaware of a dynastic change in such titles, only of families that had the title and are still significant after it was abolished. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 22:59, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- To be clear there is zero basis in any literature for Category:Kuni no miyatsukoates as a term. I just provisionally used it in analogy to Khanate or Shogunate
- An alternative reading of the characters is "Kokuzo" but that one is more ambiguous and I believe a less common but still present reading. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 23:12, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- Request: @Immanuelle Could you consolidate your nomination? It's hard to easily digest what and why you're advocating. Mason (talk) 00:31, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Smasongarrison I changed my mind about the whole thing, Now currently Category:Kuni no miyatsuko is a container category for the three other categories. But I still think all of them need to be renamed to fit MOS Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 09:13, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- Request: @Immanuelle Could you consolidate your nomination? It's hard to easily digest what and why you're advocating. Mason (talk) 00:31, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- Delete all per WP:NONDEF. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:21, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle I disagree but I think it is reasonable. Why do you think they are nondefining? Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 10:54, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- The articles about a deity, a politician, a legendary country and two former provinces. Those are the defining characteristics. Besides the articles have nothing in common with each other. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:04, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle families I think Category:Kuni no miyatsuko families is clearly defining. The deity is the first person to have a position that the politician had, which was a Kuni no Miyatsuko position.
- Category:Kuni_no_miyatsukoates I think the best point is for Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 20:52, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- I think I agree on keeping Category:Kuni no miyatsuko families but this category has not been nominated anyway, right? If it were nominated, it might be renamed to "clans" instead of "families". Marcocapelle (talk) 21:10, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle I disagree but I think it is reasonable. Why do you think they are nondefining? Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 10:54, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 17:05, 17 December 2023 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 09:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Category:Fictional British characters by descent
- Nominator's rationale: Only one immediate subcategory. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 17:12, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- Alt merge Category:Fictional British characters of Asian descent to Category:Fictional British characters by descent in order to keep it in the descent tree. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:30, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- Comment There are only 3 or 4 of these "Fictional X characters by descent" categories, I wonder about the value of these limited categories. Liz Read! Talk! 17:19, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- @LaundryPizza03, Smasongarrison, and AHI-3000: what do you think of User:Liz's comment? Should we categorize fictional characters by ancestry at all? And if not, what do you think of my alt merge proposal? Marcocapelle (talk) 19:00, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- With the recent deletions, I'd suggest merging all except the American category to Category:Fictional characters by ethnicity. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:16, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Category:Newspaper chain founders
- Propose merging Category:Newspaper chain founders to Category:Newspaper founders
- Propose renaming Category:Turkish newspaper chain founders to Category:Turkish newspaper founders
- Propose merging Category:Venezuelan newspaper chain founders to Category:Venezuelan newspaper founders
- Propose merging Category:Nigerian newspaper chain founders to Category:Nigerian newspaper founders
- Propose merging Category:Pakistani newspaper chain founders to Category:Pakistani newspaper founders
- Propose merging Category:Mexican newspaper chain founders to Category:Mexican newspaper founders
- Propose merging Category:Indian newspaper chain founders to Category:Indian newspaper founders
- Propose merging Category:German newspaper chain founders to Category:German newspaper founders
- Propose merging Category:French newspaper chain founders to Category:French newspaper founders
- Propose merging Category:Canadian newspaper chain founders to Category:Canadian newspaper founders
- Propose merging Category:British newspaper chain founders to Category:British newspaper founders
- Propose merging Category:American newspaper chain founders to Category:American newspaper founders and Category:American newspaper chain owners
- Nominator's rationale: Non-defining intersection between size of newspaper founded and nationality.Mason (talk) 19:00, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- The first two articles I am looking at do not concern founders of anything. They are businesspeople who grew existing newspapers to a chain. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:24, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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- Delete unless my previous comment is properly addressed. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:43, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Category:People from Assam Province
- Propose merging Category:People from Assam Province to Category:People from Assam
- Nominator's rationale: Overlapping category Mason (talk) 20:34, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
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- Merge, there is no need to split people at subnational level to before and after Indian independence. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:49, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Category:Ibero-American awards
- Propose merging Category:Ibero-American awards to Category:Latin American awards
- Nominator's rationale: Unclear what the intended distinction is between "Latin American" and "Ibero-American" in this context. Bearcat (talk) 21:53, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose (nominally) Ibero-American awards encompass a wider scope including Spain and Portugal (unlike Latin-American ones, which leave those countries out).--Asqueladd (talk) 22:15, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
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Category:Electronic dance music record labels
- Nominator's rationale: Both categories encompass the same group of articles: record labels which release electronic music. The term is more commonly known as "Electronic music", and the need for a second category is superfluous. Jalen Folf (talk) 23:35, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Category:Fictional Jews
- Merge Category:Fictional Jewish women to Category:Fictional Jews
- Rationale: Do we really need this? We have no other categories which sort female fictional characters by their ethnicity or religion. AHI-3000 (talk) 06:05, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:01, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Category:Berber Islamists
- Propose splitting Category:Berber Islamists to Category:Berber Muslims and Category:Islamists
- Nominator's rationale: Dual merge: Non-defining Intersection between ethnicity and religious sect/political orientation Mason (talk) 02:40, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Manually merge, no need to merge some articles to Category:Islamists after I just added them Category:Islamist mass murderers. Also I wonder about Berber Muslims as a target: most articles are Belgian Muslims of Moroccan descent and Berber ethnicity seems not very defining for them. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:10, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Category:Arms traders
- Propose renaming Category:Arms traders to Category:Arms dealers
- Nominator's rationale: Based on opposition to renaming the subcategory Category:Fictional arms dealers to align with this category.
From WP:CFDS
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–LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:47, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Either rename the real-world category or rename the fictional category, at least make sure they are consistent with each other. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:58, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Comment "arms traffickers" instead? Category:Amrs traffickers, Category:Fictional arms traffickers, arms trafficker and arms traffickers and arms trafficer and arms trafficers as redirects to arms trafficking -- 65.92.247.66 (talk) 01:33, 26 December 2023 (UTC)