Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 November 25

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November 25

This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on November 25, 2023.

Parralel lives

• Parralel lives → Parallel Lives  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] 

Delete because of the uncommon misspelling for the redirect. --Bumpf said this! ^{ooh clicky clicky!} [insert witty meta-text on wiki-sigs here] 21:44, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• Keep. Based on the number of occurrences of this spelling on talk pages and in file descriptions this seems to be a very common misspelling. Thryduulf (talk) 00:38, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
• Keep. I always have to think about how to spell "parallel", so I'm pretty sure lots of people spell it wrong. This title isn't needed for anything else, so keeping it is harmless anyway. P Aculeius (talk) 14:46, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Heather Hannoura

• Heather Hannoura → Laura Jane Grace  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] 

N Delete: This redirect discourages the creation of Heather Hannoura's article. Deleting it would encourage article creation. It serves no other purpose than redirecting to Laura Jane Grace, her former wife, and reliable sources, providing information that they were married, are common and can be easily found. — CrafterNova ^{[ TALK ] [ CONT ]} 19:22, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per CrafterNova. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:00, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

University of Notre Dame Folk Choir

• University of Notre Dame Folk Choir → University of Notre Dame  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] 

The folk choir isn't mentioned in the target article. This might be a case of WP:REDYES, as the group's probably notable, but I don't think that the redirect is appropriate if they're not mentioned in the target. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 18:52, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, this is weird. Thanks for flagging this down. Seems the page was created as a redirect? Pinging the user who created it @Ravenpuff:. Eccekevin (talk) 03:34, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

@Red-tailed hawk and Eccekevin: I created this to resolve a prominent redlink at J.J. Wright (composer), which appeared in DYK earlier this year, and a redirect to University of Notre Dame seemed appropriate. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 15:30, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I think it is okay as it stands. It might merit a page in the future, but before that is written this is the most sensible redirect. Eccekevin (talk) 18:41, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

☄️

• ☄️ → Comet  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] 
• ☄ → Astronomical symbols#Other symbols  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] 

These two redirects appear to be the same thing ... so why do they have different targets? Steel1943 (talk) 18:46, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Well, that's weird. The second one looks like an emoji identical to the first when viewing on a browser, but when editing the page, it almost looks like a one-character emoticon. Steel1943 (talk) 18:49, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

On my browser, they look completely different; the first one is an emoji and the second one looks like an ancient pictograph. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 18:53, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• Keep or retarget both to Comet. Before anyone brings up deletion, I'll mention that deleting this page would make it the only emoji without a redirect on Wikipedia. This is probably why every other emoji redirect discussion brought up this year has concluded in a keep/retarget decision. (See prior discussions here: 🤭, 👩‍💻, 🛋️, ⏫/⏬, 🫸/🫷, 🤪, 🙀, 👯‍♂️, 🫥, 👾, 🧑‍🦳, 👏, 💨, 😶‍🌫, 🤗, 😬, 🏚️, & 🔥) Enix150 (talk) 20:37, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• Keep or retarget to Comet. Also, Enix150, you've made this WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument before, and, to be blunt, I'm sick of it. Saying that "oh, deleting that would make it the only {x} without a redirect on Wikipedia" isn't even an argument because it doesn't remotely have a basis in any policy, guideline, or even essay. This comment, which you have copy/pasted over and over, amounts to WP:ILIKEIT. Edward-Woodrow (talk) 22:39, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

  The discussion is tired because we've had the same debate over and over again, and each time the outcome is the same. This emoji is named Comet and should clearly redirect to the intended target article of the same name. As for policy determination, it is currently being rehashed at the Village pump. Until that gets solved we're going to have to have the same debate every time someone adds an emoji to RfD, but all eighteen discussions so far have decided that keep/retarget is the best option. Enix150 (talk) 01:11, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

  And while there is no clear consensus for a single outcome at that discussion, those options involving deletion are by far the least favoured. Thryduulf (talk) 01:19, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

• Keep ☄️, someone searching on the emoji is almost certainly looking for the article about comments. Retarget ☄ to Comet#Etymology where the astronomical symbol (which is not an emoji) is discussed. Thryduulf (talk) 00:42, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Marilyn (Mario character)

• Marilyn (Mario character) → Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] 

Delete per WP:REDYES. Not mentioned at target. The history is not worth keeping. –CopperyMarrow15 (talk | edits) Feel free to ping me! 17:29, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• Delete this redirect exists because Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marilyn (Mario character) closed as "merge" in May 2005. The information about Marilyn (at the time of the AfD it was "The biggest Shadow Siren in the bunch. Other than one line, she is unable to say more than "Guh", and various forms of it. She can become stronger and hit hard.") and other playable characters was removed in this September 2005 edit with the rationale that it was mentioned in another article, without specifying which one. Wherever it was then, the content doesn't seem to exist anywhere now so there is nowhere suitable to point the redirect and no requirement to keep it for attribution purposes. Thryduulf (talk) 00:59, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

The Star Beast

• The Star Beast → Star Beast  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] 

There are only two "The Star Beast" entries, and the Heinlein novel is much better known than a Dr. Who episode. Clarityfiend (talk) 14:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• Retarget per nom: a novel by Heinlein is much better for PTOPIC than a single upcoming Doctor Who episode. Edward-Woodrow (talk) 14:24, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• I'm actually proposing that today's page move of the novel be reverted. Clarityfiend (talk) 16:29, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

  There is a third listed Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 23:13, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• I'm not convinced that the Heinlein novel would be the better target. And I'm not sure why one would dismiss the Doctor Who entry as "a single episode", given it's appeared in multiple forms since 1980. I say this as having read both stories. There is a third one - Star Beast (novel) - and perhaps that can be cleaned up, as there's no indication in the article that the topic is even notable! Nfitz (talk) 23:51, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Also keep in mind, that the current redirect at The Star Beast (Doctor Who) would presumably has been replaced by Draft:The Star Beast (Doctor Who). Nfitz (talk) 00:51, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Celebi

• Celebi → Çelebi  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] 

It redirects to a dab page Thanawat200807 (talk) 07:14, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

This is a rather classic {{R from title without diacritics}}, there's nothing wrong with it? The only thing I notice that could well be wrong is putting the small town at Çelebi instead of having that term disambiguated, I'll go investigate if that should be fixed. --Joy (talk) 11:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

So I updated the situation around Çelebi. The only question is if we should split Celebi into a separate disambiguation page per WP:SMALLDETAILS. However, the only other meaning is a Pokemon, so, does it really matter? Maybe it should just be reformatted to say {{for|the Pokemon|Celebi (Pokemon)}} at the top? --Joy (talk) 11:20, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• The question here is whether this should redirect to the Çelebi disambiguation page or to the same target as Celebi (Pokemon). Looking at Google results, the Pokemon is the clear primary topic - every single result on the first page and all but two on the second, with the other two being for a non-notable UK company and an acronym for some specialist astrophysics software. On page three is a mix of Pokemon, a singe result for a hotel in Cyprus and multiple people with the surname Celebi or Çelebi. So Retarget to List of generation II Pokémon#Celebi as a {{R avoided double redirect}} of Celebi (Pokemon) and add a hatnote to the disambiguation page. Thryduulf (talk) 13:02, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

  @Thryduulf The weird part about the Pokemon list is that it's a table with several narrow columns, so the hatnote would have to be... in a row of its own above? --Joy (talk) 14:43, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

  Note also that even if it were primary topic by usage that could still be WP:Recentism as it's the very latest in the series. Perhaps a compromise solution is to split out "Celebi" into a simple list of its own, with two items, one to the Pokemon table one to the Turkish term. Later there can be a discussion to short-circuit if e.g. WikiNav shows that everyone is looking just for the Pokemon. --Joy (talk) 14:47, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: Per WP:DABNAME, Çelebi should be moved to Celebi or Celebi (disambiguation) to avoid diacritics. Steel1943 (talk) 18:55, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

  This is true. This discussion is essentially deciding between Celebi and Celebi (disambiguation) for the disambiguation page's name. –CopperyMarrow15 (talk | edits) Feel free to ping me! 19:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

  @Steel1943 with most of the items there actually called Çelebi, and a clear long-term significance of the Turkish term, it merits its own list (WP:SMALLDETAILS). "Celebi" can certainly be its own disambiguation page between that and the Pokemon term; I've drafted it over there now. --Joy (talk) 21:36, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• Retarget to List of generation II Pokémon § Celebi and add hatnote for Celebi (disambiguation). WP:SMALLDETAILS handles situations like The World Is Yours (disambiguation) vs. The Wörld Is Yours by asserting that someone who types the diactric is definitely looking for the one specific item (the album) and someone who doesn't type the diactric is looking for one of a number of things (disambiguation page), but this situation is quite unusual. The disambiguation page is the one using a diactric, and the single specific item is the only entry using no diactric. I don't think I've seen anything like this before, but I suppose WP:SMALLDETAILS still prevails, especially considering the Pokémon's popularity. –CopperyMarrow15 (talk | edits) Feel free to ping me! 19:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

  @CopperyMarrow15 where exactly do we squeeze in the hatnote in that table, though? --Joy (talk) 21:45, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

  @Joy, I was thinking something like this. Does it look okay on your end? –CopperyMarrow15 (talk | edits) Feel free to ping me! 00:17, 26 November 2023 (UTC); edited 00:20, 26 November 2023 (UTC); edited 00:23, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

  That or this alternative would work for me. Thryduulf (talk) 01:11, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

  On my resolution the vertical spacing is so large that I just see the hatnote, and the vertical middle alignment makes the actual content there mostly variously colored empty space. But yeah, I guess something like that would be the way to go if we're confident that the amount of interest in the Pokemon will continue to dwarf any amount of interest in the diacriticless version of the Turkish term, that it's not recentism. --Joy (talk) 17:48, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

• We probably don't need 2 DAB pages, if the Pokemon is primary then I'd just make the title without the diacritic primary and put a hatnote to the DAB but otherwise move Çelebi here. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:53, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Doug Doug

• Doug Doug → Doug E. Doug  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] 

So, this is... complicated. There's a person named DougDoug (no space), and a person named Doug E. Doug (with a middle initial). I'd weakly lean towards keeping per WP:SMALLDIFFS, but I think this is a matter worth discussing either way. Queen of Hearts ❤️ (no relation) 07:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I guess we could also hypothetically disambiguate. Queen of Hearts ❤️ (no relation) 07:41, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• Retarget to DougDoug, who is the clear primary topic among the two of them on Google when searching "Doug Doug" -Wikipedia. Thryduulf (talk) 13:04, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

  This might be rendered moot since I nominated the DougDoug article for deletion. Ca ^{talk to me!} 15:30, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

  In which case Wait until the AfD concludes. If the DougDoug article is deleted then this is moot as there will be only one encyclopaedic topic to which it can refer. If the AfD consensus is for some action other than deletion then we can discuss where best to point this redirect at that time. Thryduulf (talk) 01:15, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Pan-Primates

• Pan-Primates → Primate  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] 

Not mentioned at target. jlwoodwa (talk) 07:04, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• Comment the term is defined as "Pan-Primates includes Primates and all extinct mammals that are more closely related to that crown clade than to any other extant mammals."[1] However there seems to be disagreement about which groups other than primates are actually covered. The term is mentioned in the taxobox (but not prose) at Primatomorpha (the taxonomic rank above pan-primates) and Plesiadapiformes mentions the term prominently in the lead, linking "Pan-Primates" directly to Primate. These might make good redirect targets, but might not - I'd like to see some input from those with subject-matter knowledge so I'll leave a note at the relevant WikiProject. Thryduulf (talk) 13:16, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
• Retarget to Primatomorpha: Per Thryduulf, this is likely to be the better target. UtherSRG (talk) 13:26, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: Template:Taxonomy/Pan-Primates and Template:Taxonomy/Plesiadapiformes, which link to Pan-Primates, may need attention once a decision is reached. Certes (talk) 15:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Matrix Theory and Linear Algebra

• Matrix Theory and Linear Algebra → Matrix (mathematics)  (talk · links · history · stats)     [ Closure: keep/retarget/delete ] 

Delete per WP:XY. Matrix theory redirects to the same target as the nominated redirect, but Linear algebra is a different topic. Steel1943 (talk) 20:58, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Comment "Matrix Theory and Linear Algebra" is a standard sort of title of an introductory linear algebra course, probably offered and hundreds of universities, and perhaps also of textbooks intended for such a course. --JBL (talk) 21:09, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Seems like a potential argument for WP:REDLINK deletion then, if the pairing of these two terms together represent a university course of some sort rather than the target subject. Steel1943 (talk) 21:21, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Also, the result of "Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 January 21#Algebra I" may be relevant here regarding setting some sort of precedence. Steel1943 (talk) 21:23, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

That may or may not be relevant. The principle argument for deleting the redirects there was that they were too ambiguous to make a viable disambiguation or set index article, referring to many different courses at multiple levels (at least high school to undergraduate level) in multiple different education systems and institutions. @JBL's comment suggests far less ambiguity in this situation. Thryduulf (talk) 14:00, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

If you can source that this is a common title, then a page with that as an introduction and links to both topics with a brief (few words) summary of each would make a good set index. Thryduulf (talk) 10:24, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Speaking from a non-WP-editor perspective, this is easy to verify by putting the phrase into your favorite search engine and looking through a few pages of hits, picking out different universities and textbooks as you go. Of course this is not a WP-usable form of verification, and I am skeptical that one can find much in the way of secondary sources commenting on the fact of the commonness of this phrase. We can see in the history of this redirect something of what was intended, since it originally pointed to "matrix theory". This phrase is a partial synonym of "linear algebra", suggesting the less-theoretical aspects of the field, especially as taught in introductory courses with audience largely composed of engineers -- but I don't think we really have an article about that (or, to the extent that we do, the article is already the current target of the redirect). In the end I've just commented here (rather than !voted) because I don't see that it matters very much: it's easy to understand why the redirect was created and why it points where it does (so its existence isn't harmful), but it's also hard to see a situation where it is crucial for navigation in the encyclopedia (so its deletion also wouldn't be harmful). --JBL (talk) 18:13, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

• Delete at this capitalisation (which infers a proper name). Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 20:43, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 03:55, 25 November 2023 (UTC)