Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list/Proposed decision

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On Russavia

@Coren; I didn't really explain my reasoning for this on the workshop. As I read the situation, Russavia was topic-banned, then vigorously protested, saying in part, that he removed bad stuff from a lot of articles, and that without being able to edit, the only way to get the bad stuff removed would be to contact the subjects, some of whom might want to sue. As a result, he was blocked for legal threats. The issue for me is that at least part of the reason Russavia got frustrated and lashed out may have been as a result of off-wiki coordination through this mailing list. Additionally, it seems inequitable that the people who have been (allegedly) coordinating attacks and gaming their revert paroles against him would be topic-banned, but that he would be completely blocked (or, unblocked on condition that he only edit case pages). So largely for reasons of equity, I proposed putting him on the same footing as the other editors pending the final outcome. Thatcher 02:03, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

As the banning admin, I'd like to note that "remains banned from Eastern European pages under the terms of Sandstein's original ban" is unclear because I banned Russavia only from anything related to the Soviet Union and its successor states. The injunction can be read as extending this topic ban to all of Eastern Europe, which I believe is not necessary. Conversely, there is the issue of his indef block by Good Olfactory for disruption and legal threats, currently only conditionally lifted to allow arbitration participation; is this block ordered to be removed by the injunction's "may freely edit other articles and pages"? It might be better not to address Russavia's situation, which is at least stable, at all in this injunction, and modify any sanctions applying to him only in the final decision (if that is required).  Sandstein  06:29, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

If i have incompletely understood the history then Arbcom may perhaps need to clarify the motion as to their intent. My own intent in proposing it was to put Russavia on an equal footing with the other editors for the duration of the case. Thatcher 13:18, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

My own position is simply that, at this time, I would prefer to not judge the appropriateness of the sanctions that were placed in the past. — Coren ^(talk) 13:29, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Thatcher for posting this, for what you wrote is precisely what I wrote, and precisely what I meant when I posted what I did. Both the Sandstein and GoF missed the part where I wrote explicitly that I would not be doing that. It was a completely hypothetical as to the only way to have the information removed, due to the sanctions which were put in place, and which are still very much in dispute. It is quite interesting to note that the WP:COPYVIO that I pointed out nearly a week ago on the ANI board in Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in South Ossetia is still present in the article. Things like these are merely lawsuits waiting to happen; and what Thatcher stated above is corect; it was pointing out the only way to get BLP and COPYVIO (two of the key policies on WP) offending materials removed. And again I stated that I would not be encouraging legal action. So as per WP:NLT, this can again be construed as a retraction of any legal threats, even though there clearly was no legal threat to begin with. --Russavia ^Dialogue 18:01, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Clarification for editor please

Biophys has posted on User:YMB29 talk page, advising him that he is under editing restrictions. Being unsure whether YMB29 will check this out in more detail or not, and because I am not able to edit anything unrelated to this Arbcom at present, would someone please be so kind as to advise YMB29 that he is not under any editing restrictions, and that it is only proposed at present to topic ban whilst the arbitration is active, those who were participants in the email list, not anyone that they may have discussed, as seems to be what Biophys may have taken the restrictions as meaning. --Russavia ^Dialogue 04:26, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

On proposed temporary topic ban

As the founder and moderator of WikiProject Poland, the only user monitoring New Article Bot on Poland-related subjects, the user doing most of the Project assessments, the author of ~20 Poland-related Featured Articles, hundreds of Poland-related DYKs and so on, I would like to call into question whether a topic ban on a subject article that will effectively turn me - an editor in the Top 50 most active Wikipedia's editors specializing in Poland - into a non-editor - is benefiting this project. Hence I would like to ask the committee to consider more surgical topic bans. I do not understand why the committee feels such a measure is necessary in the first place, but we can discuss that later; for now I can voluntarily promise not the edit anything relating to Russian modern politics and to adopt a 1RR for the Eastern European content (which wouldn't be that different from my regular editing pattern). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:48, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you. This hasty ban is nonsensical. First, the 'evidence' was obtained illegally (hacking). Secondly, as of now there's zero evidence that the mailing list resulted in significant disruption to EE articles. Thirdly, flatly forbidding experienced EE users to contribute to any articles on their preferred topics is counterproductive, given that all the parties to this case are currently watched and scrutinized anyway. --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 07:03, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps several users broke the rules while on this mailing list, but I don't understand why everyone on this list is immediately guilty. As long as this topic ban is temporary I can understand such move, I just hope it really is temporary. Grey Fox (talk) 07:18, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

and the most scary thing is that based on stolen and for sure many fake e-mails, they are voting now on banning all active Polish and Estonian editors from the English Wikipedia. I hope they do realize what that means. P.S. No wondering most opponents are so active here throwing acusations and "evidences" around. :) What a huge opportunity to rewrite "problematic" Polish or Estonian related articles the "right" way. What unbelievable bonanza ahead!! :):)--Jacurek (talk) 08:26, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

• The topic ban is very fine and dandy, except have the Arbcom noted that the "mailing list evidence" suggests others have been copypasting in the edits of topic banned and blocked users in the past? Piotrus you know that very well!Giano (talk) 08:28, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I would like to know the justification to my ban. I have been inactive in wikipedia for more than a year, so my belonging to any list cannot be tied to my activities on WP. I would also like to point pout that any sane person caring about the quality of said sector of WP would not support this ban. The balance of POV-s has always been delicate in EE, you would break it down completely. --Alexia Death the Grey (talk) 08:33, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

This temporary injunction is a preventative measure and not a sanction. When a person (or a group) is suspected of misbehavior while doing a specific activity, being directed to suspend that activity during the investigation is a common measure.

Remember that this is a measure that gets lifted automatically at the conclusion of the case. — Coren ^(talk) 13:26, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Preventing suspected misbehavior of what kind? I see, in evidence, accusations of targeting several articles related to modern Russian politics, of stalking/harassing certain editors and of edit warring. A specific topic ban on modern Russian politics, a 1RR restriction, and possibly a ban on making comments on certain editors outside this arbitration should solve all the issues, wouldn't they? What's the reason that I cannot finish writing my new article on Adolf Bniński and develop it into a my DYK no. 284, why is Radek prevented from doing the same on Stanisław Aronson, why is Poeticbent to be denied getting the chance to work on History of Kraków to bring it to a GA, why Tymek shouldn't be allowed to finish translating Numeration of railway lines in Poland, why are we prevented from taking part in a new promising mediation...? What's so undeniably disruptive about 99.9% of our regular edits that we need to be practically indef banned, on the basis of stolen and - as I am now pretty much sure - tampered with evidence? While the evidence is highly unreliable at best, our content creation logs and history speak for themselves. There is a no denying that with this topic ban, Wikipedia will loose much uncontroversial, high quality content. I cannot understand why this is not being taken into account, where a small tailoring of the temporary injunction should satisfy all concerns and allow us to work on improving the project in a public and uncontroversial ways we usually do. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:22, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Note that at this time the proposed injunction is not passing. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:56, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Guilt by association

So let's see: the Committee has opened a case nostra sponte, arbitrarily named everyone who participated on a mailing list as parties, and is now proceeding to ban all these participants merely on the basis of their presence on said list, despite the lack of any specific allegations against them? There can be no pretense here that this is intended to prevent some ongoing or expected disruption, as many of these editors have been inactive for months; the ban is collective punishment, nothing more.

(And let us be honest: given the Committee's normal speed, a ban "pending the resolution of the case" is likely to last months. What exactly does the Committee plan to do with the innocent subscribers to the list, who will have endured bans for no apparent reason? Or is the possibility of innocence not even being considered?)

Presumably the Committee will follow up by banning everyone involved in, say, Wikipedia Review, or any of the other venues where plots among editors are allegedly being hatched? Or would that too greatly inconvenience the honored arbitrators who so enjoy participating there?

Hypocrisy is not a virtue; and "How to deal with Poles" is not an instructional guide. The course this proceeding is taking is utterly disgraceful. Kirill ^[talk] [pf] 14:58, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

What is disgraceful is that editors from the same topic area, often the very same editors, repeatedly engage in actions that lead to repeated arbcom cases. You're welcome to rejoin the committee at any time. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:35, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Whoa. I didn't realize an injunction like this was even proposed, much less that it's almost passing. I doubt this case will be so one-sided that we will even consider decimating one side of the dispute. There are no community trust issues, no privacy issues, and no good reasons for urgency, so this is not a good injunction.

Thank you for watching this case. Cool Hand Luke 16:13, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I came here to express my sentiments on this motion, but see Kirill has already done so with great competence. (Every time I think that ArbCom has exhasuted the possible limits of absurdity and injustice, they do something to prove me wrong...)--Kotniski (talk) 17:07, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

It's only absurd and unjust when you don't agree with it. If you agree with it, it's brilliant. — Rlevse • Talk • 17:10, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

If that's aimed at me, I don't believe I've ever felt that ArbCom was brilliant (except perhaps in the happy period before I knew how it "worked"). Every time I accidentally come into contact with it, my only impressions are that it's at best a bureaucratic monster, and at worst a callous dispenser of injustice. Handing out punishments before a case has even started, to people whose only known crime is to have associated with possibly the wrong people, can hardly fail to reinforce the latter sentiment.--Kotniski (talk) 17:20, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Guilty until proven innocent. And how can one prove he is innocent, if the court is accepting stolen and fake-able evidence (and any counter-evidence, being of the same type, can be also fake-able)? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:25, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

It's a joke. Luckily it's not going to pass, but those WikiProjects/regions of Wikipedia that don't solve their problems internally will always be inconvenienced. At the end of the day, only involved people care about things much anyway. Those Wikiprojects with no admins or admins who just sit around waiting for the minions to feed them will always pay. Some arbs say that they have to stay out of things in case it gets to arbcom, but I think it is illogical. If people care they will get involved and recuse if it gets too big and ends up at arbcom, not wait for 6 months of endless riots or whatever. I've seen it from the inside. If you want thoughtful service, you'll have to have the power to harass the arbs or do political damage to them. POV based disputes on Wikipedia aren't worth seeking help for, really. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:06, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I've switched to oppose from support. This will give the Committee more time to examine the evidence and decide what needs to be done here. However, if it emerges that any editors that this topic ban was proposed for have engaged in disruptive behaviour, and continued to engage in disruptive behaviour during the case, then that will likely be reflected in the final decision. Carcharoth (talk) 17:35, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Could you define disruptive behavior, so we are on the same page? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:47, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you saying that all this time as an admin you didn't know what disruptive behavior is? (Igny (talk) 18:42, 19 September 2009 (UTC))

I am saying that my definition of disruptive behavior includes things such as hacking somebody's computer and sharing private information with third parties, but does not include private discussions of wikipolitics. Apparently, this differs with the definition used by others. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:48, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

My references to disruptive behaviour are to on-wiki actions, especially if they were co-ordinated off-wiki. Piotrus, I have some questions about this mailing list. Would you be prepared to answer them? The best place is probably the Workshop, which normally has a section for questions, but has been changed for this case, though I see questions are being asked there. Carcharoth (talk) 19:25, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

As I mentioned in my early email to arbcom, I am prepared to answer questions, and looking forward to establish a dialogue with the committee, although in cases where privacy is involved I may prefer to do it off wiki, particularly as I don't enjoy weeding through flaming like this to get to the more substantive and good faithed comments. I am also working on preparing evidence and statement that may clarify few issues. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:39, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I request that any administrative sanctions follow the conclusion of these proceedings, because that is how we do business around here. There’s no benefit in beating around the bushes with preventative bans on positive contributions. Please, take as an example my latest leading DYK, featured on the front page on Sept 16. – With over 6,600 views on that date, Trzy Korony massif is featured at WP:DYKSTATS for this month. – Why would I need to endure a topic ban on Poland’s countryside, I don’t know? By the way, anybody would accept an invitation to a discussion group faster than I did. --Poeticbent talk 18:38, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Addendum. For anybody who's seriously interested in what I mean while capable of being a gentleman at the same time. Would you like me to email to your off-wiki account a screenshot of the front page of my inbox? It displays a bolded number of 1941 messages that have not been opened yet… most of them since June 2009. Perhaps this arbitration case will inspire me to read them, but I’m not sure. --Poeticbent talk 21:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC) I strike out my good will comment, due to the spirit of ongoing attacks. --Poeticbent talk 15:17, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Look, to put this simply, you lot have broken the rules big time. You have connived, you have manipulated, you have copy-pasted for banned users and you have collaborated on attacks and that is just the beginning. In short, in a few weeks it is doubtful than any of you will be editing at all; so in the meantime, just be quiet. Oh and for what it's worth, no one hacked your computers, one of your own shopped you - and that says it all! Giano (talk) 19:24, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Giano, your comments, speculations and accusations in relation to this case are not helping. Please tone it down or stay away from the case and let ArbCom deal with it. Carcharoth (talk) 19:28, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Carcharoth, I shall be monitoring the Arbcom's efforts with great interest. I hope they are up to the challenge - after years of head burying and ignoring the obvious, you can hardly be surprised that confidence is somewhat lacking - can you? So, let's leave no stone unturned, I cartainly shall not. Lots of people have been hurt by these people - remember that. Giano (talk) 19:35, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I am curious: what is your evidence for your statements? Did you read the reputed archive? How have you obtained it? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:39, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

You seem confused Piotrus: Let me explain, you are supposed to be answering questions not asking them. I am sorry I have other things to do than talk to you. Per Carcharoth's request, I shall not be commenting here for a while. I won't wish you luck because yours has quite clearly run out. Giano (talk) 19:51, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Your reply is very enlightening, thank you. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:56, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Note that at this point the proposed injunction is not passing. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:58, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I must comment here, even though I know I'm gonna incur some wrath by doing so. To start, I don't care if these cabalists get temporary topic bans, it's neither a big loss nor a big gain in the context. The pro is that it sends the right message, the con is that just now many of these users are probably anxious to show the wiki world what productive content editors they are and will write lots of articles if able.

But Kirill, I'm gonna be blunt, I am inclined to believe that one of the biggest reasons each of the previous Arbcom cases aggravated the situation so much, ending each time so favorably for these cabalists, was because you were the main architect each time. You seem to have a bit too much sympathy for certain users, and other arbs trusted that your judgment could be relied upon because of your national background. I have no idea why you'd be predisposed like this, but I am pretty sure you are.

Maybe you bonded with Piotrus in the military history project, maybe you admire his article work as a fellow enthusiast of his topics, maybe you have a cultural disposition similar to that of Biophys, maybe you have been more vulnerable to the kind of "argumentative" tactics the Piotrus cabal typically use; maybe it's something else ... But I have thought there's something ever since I reviewed the cases, even though I don't doubt you are irreproachably honest, and that you have always acted in good faith. As I am clearly irremediably biased, I acknowledge that I may be wrong.

However, your post above doesn't help me alleviate these suspicions. You cite the meta page "How to deal with Poles", but you must surely at this stage realise that the function if not the purpose of this straw man page was to mock anyone who confronted this cabal in order to silence them. They boast and congratulate each other for such tactics in their emails, and in this context your use of it to argue in their favour shows something most people with good faith would call naivety.

At any rate, the group of users in this list is small, and almost all of them have been recently, actively and conspicuously complicit in the misconduct under review. It's not exactly the most risky motion nor would it be the greatest "injustice" ever proposed by an ArbCom, and certainly shouldn't be leading you to become as upset as the strength of you language suggests you are. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 08:40, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Of course, anybody who agrees with us is biased, only people who disagree with us are not. I think I've written an essay on that :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 15:58, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Presumably the Committee will follow up by banning everyone involved in, say, Wikipedia Review, or any of the other venues where plots among editors are allegedly being hatched? Or would that too greatly inconvenience the honored arbitrators who so enjoy participating there?

To add to what Kirill says I’d like to point out that Wikipedia Review is not the only internet forum where Wikipedia editors, politics and plots are discussed and considered. These are spread all over the internet.

One particular example can be found over at Alternate History (www.alternatehistory.com) where Wikipedia editors – using pseudonyms to hide their on Wiki names, rather than forming a private list – discuss things like the feasibility of setting up bots to automatically revert all editors that can be identified as being from Eastern Europe, partly in order to (and this is stated specifically) to get Piotrus “permabanned”. (The link to the specific discussion can be emailed directly to ArbCom).

While the Wiki identity of the members of this discussion forum are hidden behind “nom-de-guerre”s, familiarity with the topic area allows one to ascertain who’s who. This “cabal forum at Alt Hist” includes several prominent Wikipedia editors and administrators, some of whom, are possibly involved in this present case (no points for guessing who).

So, is anyone going to formally ask ArbCom committee to take any action against the Wikipedians at Alt History forum? Or will someone only request this of ArbCom only after somebody hacks the Alt History website and retrieves personal information on the participants in this forum first?"

(Of course, there is no way to be sure beyond a reasonable doubt that an editor behind a nick-de-guerre is really connected to a real Wikipedia editor, and not a dedicated stalker/agent trying to frame him – if ArbCom WERE to investigate the Alt Hist Cabal, I’d be the first to raise the possibility that this is a set up.)radek (talk) 20:16, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I think we'll send a good message to them all by dealing properly with the current case (besides, public forum is not quite the same thing as private mailing list). Alæxis_¿question? 06:49, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

public forum is not quite the same thing as private mailing list - You're right, a private list is private and nobody else's business.radek (talk) 04:10, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Time limit for collecting and presenting evidence extended

I would like to make the following proposal/temporary injunction: The time limit for collecting and presenting evidence shall be extended by one week for one or more of the following inter related reasons:

a) The unusual nature of this case and the fact that it involves issues which extend beyond on-Wiki behavior

b) The fact that some users are still unclear as to what should be presented as evidence based on a) above

c) The fact that the collection of evidence might require more than just diffs from Wikipedia

d) The fact that issues concerning the source of the so-called “archive(s)” have not been clarified.

e) The fact that the case involves multiple issues necessities that more time is required to collect evidence on different aspects of the case.radek (talk) 20:35, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I ask that any other interested editors wishing to comment on this request do so promptly. Newyorkbrad (talk) 12:56, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

We have pretty good idea that the archives were distributed by a whistleblower on the list who used Tymek's password which was distributed to the list. We don't know the identity of the whistleblower, but this theory seems much more likely than somebody hacking both the list and Tymek's account. Tymek's answers to my questions on the Workshop make all this clear. Jehochman ^Talk 13:02, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

The mail list generated a lot of traffic, which soon filled many inboxes and precluded from noticing other emails. Many people that were part of the mail list asked at some point to be temporarily removed due to this. Many people also erased at least some old messages, if not most. If I am not mistaken, everyone still has unread messages (whose subject line was uninteresting; I have a couple hundred unread Gmail conversations.)

Personally, I have the suspicion this was hacked. I believe one of the members was interesting to someone with hacking possibilities before joining the list, has been followed and his computer hacked. At one point, we discussed an image on WP that contained a name. Within hours that name was blackened. My guess is someone was receiving our mail list communications and told the author of that file "remove your name". (My guess is the author of that file did not hack anything, but knows who told him to remove his name.) This is not the only strange event leading me to assuming we were hacked.

The mail list was created with the purpose to discuss politics, events, and for personal and professional chat. Reading those personal exchanges is highly unethical! Sometimes impressions about WP events were discussed, generally in the past tense. There was absolutely not a single instance of a "coordinated" edit. Personally, every time I edited or commented on-WP I did it on my own, respectively spoke my own mind. My entire WP record is open to any review. If the emails were not tempered with, one can see that the members of the mail list had many disagreements on various issues. At one instance, Polish-Ukrainian disagreements were quite successfully mediated.

Proposal: People in ArbCom can look at the alleged achieve and create a list of WP articles and discussions which they might want to review closer. Why not first make such a list, and then carefully review everything that happened in those articles and discussions in 2009?

There was a lot of private information that was shared between those who received emails that could seriously damage personal or professional life of people. A typical example of how this can easily damage is if one of the people examining the list tells a personal friend off-WP about those details, without any ill-intent, just as a curiosity. That second person also without ill-intent, and also as a curiosity mentions something in a discussion with a third person, who becomes interested and posts it on some site that attracts ill-intended people. A forth person reads it from that site and decides he can teach someone a lesson. Therefore I have hoped (am I too idealistic?) that all 9 people that received the alleged archive would turn it to ArbCom, would not read it and would definitively not tell around "look at that email from that date". I hoped and am still hoping that ArbCom would have said/ would say "We don't need anyone to read the archive and tell us where to look. We can look ourselves. If sent, we will discard it. Send us only evidence of on-wiki activity." That would have discouraged people to scroll through those messages, since nothing on-wiki would be gained by doing that. Unfortunately, many people now enthusiastically read that and post suggestions on wiki. That is very troublesome.

Unfortunately the enthusiasm to "kick some but" is too great, and some admins have poor judgement, and do not restrain themselves to do things in a professional manner. Is it not already clear that all edits by all "accused" over the last year are open to scrutiny? If those emails are are genuine and have not been tempered with, then they would reveal very strong political, professional and personal opinions, in particular very strong words about the Soviet system and Soviet propaganda (absolutely nothing incivil), but no coordination of on-wiki votes or edits. Dc76\^talk 15:12, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

One other thing: If there would have been a "whistleblower", why didn't that person remove all emails containing private data and communication? Instead of 3,500 email, a real whistleblower would have sent 200 which would have had the same effect (in fact much easier to process) minus the privacy concerns. Dc76\^talk 15:19, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Your assumption is that the possible whistleblower would be an intelligent person with some brains to spare, like in a Hollywood movie. – In real life however, the squealers (in contrast to whistleblowers), are usually a lot dumber. Our own squealer did not reveal his Wiki identity, but instead, abused the excessive trust of a colleague. That is perhaps why he also collected all 3,500 emails complete with every speck of information. Of course, I myself would have removed the irrelevant emails containing private data before leaking it out, but than again, I would have never squealed in the first place, because I have morals. In other words, hacking is not that obvious. --Poeticbent talk 15:55, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I have no 100% proof that it's hacking. But to the best of my logic it looks to me that it is. We are younger people, we have not grown in the Communist system where they encourage everyone to spy on everyone. Besides the mail list has done nothing illegal. Is there a rule that forbids people to discuss off-WP their impression about WP? While there is little chance we can prove beyond reasonable doubt it was hacking, ArbCom can prove it was whistleblowing if it received an anonymous email from each 17 saying anonymously "yes" / "no". Can ArbCom arrange for this, please? If all 17 say "no" that wouldn't be a proof of hacking, just "we cannot assume it was whistleblowing". Dc76\^talk 20:49, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

That's a good idea. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 03:43, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Why would the supposed wistleblower need Tymek's account at all if he had his own and there are tons of free email services around? Colchicum (talk) 15:25, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Because (α) then he could make it seem like Tymek was the whistleblower rather than him, or (β) Tymek's pass was quicker and much more anonymizing than his own account. -Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Tear him for his bad verses!)} 19:13, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I think so, too. On the other hand a hacker wanting to pose as a whistleblower was unable to do this before Tymek gave out his password. Dc76\^talk 15:50, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I absolutely oppose giving any extension to the editors to present evidence. They have spent the last 4 bickering about semantics, when they could have being presenting evidence. As to what type of evidence, an admission or two or 15 would be nice...start there. It is also obvious it was a result of whistleblowing. As someone who was a victim of these editors long term harrassment, stalking and gaming, which as a result they got to celebrate my banning after a team up, i would like this case dealt with at the earliest opportunity. As are others i am sure. Spend less time on semantics and more time on presenting evidence, and stop wasting the courts time, so to speak. Russavia ^Dialogue 15:44, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Celebrating your banning or anything else in a private space is not a crime, off-wiki coordination of actual on-wiki disruption might be, but it has not been established whether it took place and who is personally responsible for it, it is currently being looked into. And your banning was a result of your own actions and is another matter. However, as the archive is supposed to be secret, all this discussion doesn't make much sense, I agree. Colchicum (talk) 16:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I likewise oppose the idea of an extension. It seems that the parties on the list commit a lot of effort to identifying the "squealer" within their midst rather than to gathering evidence of their innocence. But that's their problem. Óðinn (talk) 03:11, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

And how do you propose we prove our innocence? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 03:42, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Obviously you cannot "prove your innocence" in that the Arbs have not asked about specific problematic behaviors as yet (at least not in public). But many list members are operating under the assumption that the e-mail archive is hacked and/or faked. Piotrus since you have a copy of the archive, and since I assume at least some of you have copies of some of the e-mails (surely, at the least, several of you have gmail or hotmail accounts with "sent mail" folders that you don't regularly clean out), I would expect that you are comparing the archive that the Arbs have with copies of your own e-mails. Showing that at least some of the archived e-mails were doctored would pretty much exonerate you since the "evidence" would be irreparably tainted, so I have to assume you are working on that. However if you don't have any comment about your perusal of the archive we'd have to assume that, as far as you can tell, said archive is genuine. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 04:37, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

"Piotrus since you have a copy of the archive" - I made my statements to the ArbCom on that; short story is - I don't. I can try to verify things based on my recollection of what was written, and on a small sample of really interesting emails I preserved. I hope you are not saying that because I get rid of emails I consider unworthy of preserving in my inbox it proves (implies...) those emails have something I wanted to get rid off. PS. I used to keep better archives... maybe I shouldn't have changed my behavior. But I was getting lost in stuff, I had folders concerning games I played in 2000s and other junk... oh well. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:42, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

No no, I'm not at all saying or implying you wanted to get rid of anything, and this might just be a miscommunication. Future Perfect (and I think someone else) said you had access to the archive the Arbs have and that's what I meant. Are you saying that is not the case? If so then completely disregard my previous statement, though I would think you would want access to that archive asap.

I'm not surprised you deleted most or all of the list e-mails you had (I'm pretty rigorous about deleting e-mails as well), my point was that, between everyone in the group, using stuff that was saved and/or stuff that was captured in "sent mail" folders, I would think you would be able to dig up at least a few dozen e-mails out of how ever many there were total. That would take a bit of coordination on the part of the group, but if you can scrounge up even 25 e-mails between all of you that have not been deleted and then compare them to the "archive," you might find inconsistencies that demonstrate there was some forgery going on. Obviously it's very much in your interest to pursue that even if you cannot come up with anything conclusive, and my point was just that that was one route to pursue to "prove" your innocence so to speak (or really, get the case thrown out of court). --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:01, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I have access to that leaked/stolen archive the arbcom has, it's hardly a "sikrit" anymore - for all the privacy concerns it rises, apparently some people don't care about it and keep merrily distrusting it :( Oh, and btw: if anyone can prove it has 1,500 emails about harassing Russavia in it (as Alex claimed in his opening post at ANI), I hereby promise to print out all of my FA's and eat them, without ketchup, and post the video of that to YouTube :p Also, I want to thank all who can limit their curiosity, care about ethics of privacy and have not / will not read it. Back to you, Big. I see your point, but as I pointed out earlier, I suspect that only 1-2% where faked (if any...). And stuff that sb would want to fake is likely not the same stuff most of us would keep (I kept links to intersting sites/software, theoretical wikipolitical discussion I haven't yet used in my wikiessays, and such. And let's not forget all the time needed to do such an analysis/coordination/etc (this entire affair has eaten too much of my time already). And even if we did this, who's to say our evidence is not the real faked one doctored to make us look good (and the fact that maybe we could provide it in three formats from three editors means we just copied and converted it three times...)? Once you start thinking about evil cabals, this can only go downhill :> At this point I am just waiting for the arbcom to contact me and ask me to verify some stuff (if they decide anything needs verification). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:20, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

That's fair, though I would recommend polling the list members to see how many saved e-mails you might have among all of you, just in case ArbCom comes knocking later and something one of you did save proves useful in terms of demonstrating fraud. Not too far fetched I think, assuming there was any fraud (which, to me at least, now seems a lot less likely).

I would also echo your sentiment about limiting curiosity. There's absolutely no need for anyone else to get a hold of that archive, and anyone who does has no business reading it.

And 1,500 Russavia-related e-mails did seem a bit of an exaggeration from the beginning. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:43, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I would like to provide some evidence during the weekend so I hope the time is extended somewhat. Grey Fox (talk) 16:03, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

• Support extension. I'm about half way through drafting my submission, an extra week would be sufficient. --Martintg (talk) 00:36, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

The extension is needed due to the multi-faceted and unprecedented scope of this case. I need to compile evidence which will address stuff that's been brought up by about 10 different people, each with its own diffs and so on that I have to dig out. I need to do SOME kind of analysis of the supposed archive (which I haven't done yet) in order to be able to at least form an idea as to its authenticity. I (and others) need to pursue some leads which may help us narrow down the possibilities of how the leak occurred, hence how credible it is. Etc. etc. etc. One extra week is nothing here.radek (talk) 04:10, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

• Note, I think Vecrumba was asking for an extension too, due to personal circumstances[1]. Presumably one additional week would be sufficient. --Martintg (talk) 12:03, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

• I support any extension between five and fourteen days in length. Vassyana (talk) 20:36, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

User Molobo unblocked for the purposes of participating in this case

User:Molobo, one of the list members, was blocked for supposed sock-puppeting [2] (in an investigation involving "secret evidence" that may or may not be related to the present case). I propose that he is temporarily unblocked for the purpose of participating in this case, making his statement and so on. Of course, he'd be banned from editing articles not related to this case, although I think he should also be allowed to make an edit here [3].radek (talk) 04:14, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

You should post this in the workshop. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:15, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll copy this to workshop for you. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:13, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposed principles

I've posted the proposed principles early to help guide the collection of evidence and discussion. I do not expect that any findings of fact or remedies will be posted for a few weeks still, since more evidence (and examination of that evidence) is likely to be forthcoming.

Those principles, however, should give a good idea of what the Committee will be looking at in the weeks to come; and some of my colleagues may well propose a few more until then. — Coren ^(talk) 19:51, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

• Question 1. I have a question about Off-wiki communication. This all sounds logical, but I had absolutely no idea that anything you say off-wiki can be interpreted as "coordination". Do we have any instructions about this? I saw only the rule about canvassing ("sending messages to many Wikipedians with the intent to inform them about a community discussion"[4]) off-wiki, but I personally never send such messages through this email list. And my vote under no circumstances was influenced by any announcements. I was usually opposed to any suggestions by Piotrus during last month, for example.Biophys (talk) 21:14, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
• Question 2. Also, I never acted as someone's meatpuppet. Even such suggestion sounds offensive. We are all well-established editors here. I admit that Polish editors (for example) have more "uniform" oppinions than me and Piotrus, as one can see in many votes. They often strongly agree with each other, regardless to way of their communication and including Polish editors who never participated in this list. "Meatpuppets"? No, they simply share a similar POV.Biophys (talk) 21:25, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Please remember that those are the principles most relevant to the case; they are not findings of fact. — Coren ^(talk) 22:43, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, this is understood. I should not be talking about anyone's personal guilt. But a lot of things seem to be rather general. We all agree that on-wiki collaboration is a good thing. But what's wrong with off-wiki collaboration? OK, I will suggest a couple of principles below.Biophys (talk) 22:57, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

The Canvassing principle

Does it really apply when the users could reasonably be expected to participate in the disputes in question on their own anyway, due to the scope of their interests, their watchlists, public watchlists and so on? My impression was that WP:CANVASS prohibits partisan recruiting from outside, because otherwise the outcome is not really affected. The list might be a forum "mostly populated by a biased or partisan audience", but it was just as well a forum of users who had already been involved and would monitor the topic area on their own. It was probably at times hard to believe that e.g. I or Mosedschurte (talk · contribs)or Peltimikko (talk · contribs) or a number of other editors have never coordinated with this list, yet we haven't indeed (well, at least I haven't), which shows that no assumption of off-wiki coordination is necessary to explain many of the patterns. Actually, as User:Deacon of Pndapetzim/North-East Europe AE threads demonstrates, despite the existence of the list, at least at AE most of the Polish participants showed little involvement in the Baltic cases, and vice-versa. Colchicum (talk) 23:04, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

making list of "opponents" ... goes counter

Whilst I am also opposed to the exclusionary rule, I am afraid this piece is going to stretch the jurisdiction of ArbCom a bit too far, which is not only impractical, but also morally flawed. What if one kept black books in the mind rather than on paper? Surely I do, and let's not be hypocritical, many others do. Would that go "counter to the necessary collegiate atmosphere required to write an encyclopedia" too? In my opinion, private off-wiki activity by itself has nothing to do with on-wiki atmosphere. Judge real on-wiki damage, it is not that there is a shortage of it, and not private and closeted activity outside. Sure, the latter can be used as evidence of on-wiki disruption, but not judged as disruptive by itself. If a general notion of this kind is agreed in principle, I would like to see such a principle listed here, because some of the principles create the opposite impression. Colchicum (talk) 23:04, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Judge real on-wiki damage. Exactly. And I want to stress the word damage. The last time I checked, WP:IAR is still a policy. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:03, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Colchicum are you saying you disagree with the statement "making list of "opponents" or coordinating actions in order to drive off or punished perceived "adversaries" goes counter to the necessary collegiate atmosphere required to write an encyclopedia"? I can't fathom why anyone would object to that. No one should be making a list of "enemies" be it on Wikipedia, on a mailing list, or in your own mind (actually this is a pretty good rule not just in Wikipedia but in real life, as this guy eventually learned). Anyone who has an actual list (whether they are conscious of it or not) needs a serious wiki-break. And obviously the jurisdiction of the ArbCom doesn't extend into a private mailing list or an editor's mind, but that doesn't mean we can't state basic principles. For example assume good faith is a core behavioral guideline, but obviously no one can get in your head or my head and make us assume good faith, it's just an approach the community strongly encourages editors to adopt for reasons that are incredibly obvious to most of us. When there is evidence that someone is not assuming good faith they tend to get called on it. No one can force you or me to not make a list of our enemies, but the proposed principle simply points out that doing that is WP:BAD, and suggests that if evidence exists that you or I made such a list somewhere we would probably get called on it. Again, the idea that that is even debatable is somewhat shocking to me, and in general the argument that "private off-wiki activity by itself has nothing to do with on-wiki atmosphere" is rather absurd even in theory and, this case might well end up concluding, demonstrably false in reality.

What does WP:IAR have to do with anything here Piotrus? I find 9 times out of 10 when that policy is invoked it's for an unjustified reason, and I can't imagine how IAR relates to a principle saying that enemies lists are bad (sometimes you need them to help the project???), but maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 00:32, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

My point, Bigtimepeace, is that the only thing ArbCom (as well as Wikipedia admins and so on) are entitled to prevent is on-wiki disruption. It can take off-wiki activities as evidence, but it should have no authority to rule over them. "making list of "opponents" ... goes counter" is just an alarming example of the latter. Colchicum (talk) 16:50, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

ArbCom Committee already ruled that one can collect evidence, off-wiki, for dispute resolution (25.4) and it is of no concern to ArbCom. I will however say that calling such an evidence list or any similar tool "enemies list" is bad, bad framing; I am pretty sure I did not coin, advocate or support such a name (although I don't see how such framing, if done privately, is of concern to anybody - while I think CIV/NPA/AGF and so on are a good policy outside Wikipedia as well, as long as somebody doesn't break them on Wikipedia, this should be of no concern to editors). Re:IAR: I would like to see the evidence that our alleged actions damaged that project. Which articles (or other wiki pages) have we damaged and how? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I still don't see how IAR comes in to your point at all, but I do not know whether or not the actions of some groups members damaged the project. There is some suggestive material that has been presented, but I think the key thing is the extent to which it coordinates with the list e-mails (and what exactly those e-mails say). I don't have access to those e-mails and am not remotely interested in getting access to them, so I'm just waiting to see what the Arbs say down the road about them and their relation to Wikipedia edits. Even if it turns out that most or all members of your group engaged in little or no harmful activities, I would hope this case would at least strongly ratify the principles Coren has laid out so far. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 02:21, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

• Just because one individual posts a "enemies list" does not imply that the remainder of the group endorses or approves of such a list. I certainly don't. --Martintg (talk) 02:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
  • If the remainder of the group takes up attacking the "enemies", then yes it does. Jehochman ^Talk 02:52, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Well since the remainder of the group did not take up attacking the "enemies" illustrates my point. Such a list is no more than one person's unsolicited compilation of a combination of assumptions and observed past conflict. --Martintg (talk) 03:32, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
      • Well Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern_European_mailing_list/Evidence#WP:OUTING_and_harrassment_by_list_members_on_myself and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern_European_mailing_list/Evidence#Response_to_evidence_by_Piotrus is simple evidence that members of the group did take up attacking your enemies. And I've got more evidence to show that this is exactly the case, and is in part one of the email list' missions. --Russavia ^Dialogue 09:22, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
        • If some editors have had conflict with you, it is because they personally find your behaviour disruptive, not because of some list. --Martintg (talk) 20:25, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
          • And your stalking and harrassment did nothing to make me a "disruptive editor" (at least in your eyes)? Do you remember the time that you and Digwuren hounded and hounded me on my talk page, ignoring my requests for you to leave me alone because I knew you were teaming me? No? Nevermind, it's gonna be in evidence before too long. And one best not throw "your disruption" around, because many have found your behaviour disruptive as well; except in our cases, no email list was ever set up in order to further the harrassment and stalking; therein lies the difference, and it is for this reason that your behaviour is now front and centre, and not mine. --Russavia ^Dialogue 20:36, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
            • Given that you edit hundreds if not thousands of distinct articles and our edits coincide in a mere handful, your claim of "stalking" is nonsense, as is your claim of harassment. If you would confine your self to creating good content rather than side with Russian ultra-nationalist viewpoints and disruptively create WP:POINT articles like ESStonia, there would be no problems. --Martintg (talk) 21:36, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
              • Yeah, yeah, those excuses have worked in the past. But now we have the evidence of it Martin. So, pray, tell, how exactly did you find List of most common surnames, noting of course that you had never edited the article before I edited it. And don't use the Recent Patrol userbox excuse, as I have already noted what you said on the email list in this regard in my evidence section. You have zero credibility on this matter let me tell you. Start singing a new tune, and take responsibility for what you have done. Be a man about it. --Russavia ^Dialogue 03:01, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Exclusionary rule

I believe the point about ArbCom having no exclusionary rule would be made better in the form of a principle to be approved, rather than to be opposed, because a rejected principle won't be in the final decision. For that reason, a principle like "The Arbitration Committee may use all genuine and pertinent evidence to support its decisions, even if that evidence may have been obtained through unethical or illegal means" may be clearer. That's just a formality; personally I do believe that ArbCom should have some sort of exclusionary rule at least for evidence procured for the purpose of arbitration by means of genuinely criminal acts (rubber-hose cryptanalysis, for example), although that is hopefully a highly theoretical situation.  Sandstein  09:11, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Since when has whistleblowing been a crimimal act? There is no credible evidence to suggest otherwise. --Russavia ^Dialogue 09:25, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know whether a criminal act has or has not been committed in this specific case, because I don't know what exactly has happened with that e-mail list. I was speaking about the desirability of an exclusionary rule in general.  Sandstein  09:41, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that something should be mentioned also about the fact that everyone can publicly paraphrase such evidence on wikipedia, as this is clearly practice in current process [5], where subjects of e-mails and paraphrasing their contents is allowed. Personally I think that it de facto encourages spread of such evidence, but obviously if this is not a problem for ArbCom, then why not to write it down as principle too.--Staberinde (talk) 15:01, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure that Arbcom wouldn't endorse a principle that relies on them determining whether an act is criminal (or 'genuinely criminal') or not. They're really not competent to do that, even ignoring the wide range of jurisdictions potentially involved. A principle saying that they'll consider admissibility on a case by case basis might work - but then it wouldn't have much substance. 89.181.76.164 (talk) 15:51, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I think Newyorkbrad intends to add a principle along those lines; possibly something along the lines of "the good of the encyclopedia being the primary concern" and "inly insofar as it is directly relevant" (those are the direction I'd head towards). — Coren ^(talk) 04:52, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Request concerning the proposed decision

Hi, this is just to make the drafting arbitrator(s) aware of a request I have made on the Workshop page concerning the proposed decision.  Sandstein  06:13, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

An additional principle

I think this principle should be added for clarity:

Abcom does not respect privacy of email communications if the content of private emails is relevant to wikipedia business. All emails by this project participants can be intercepted by third hostile parties and submitted as evidence to Arbcom. This concerns not only wikipedia email, but any personal communications by any person who ever made at least one edit on this site

Seriously, I did not know that such principle applies. Even Piotrus did not know, although he knows and understands WP policies much better than me. Yes, I suspected that our emails could be intercepted by FSB and sent to Arbcom, but I thought that can not be a reason for opening any official case, simply because I would never read your personal email. Yes, I was aware of the CAMERA case. But that was an organized group of paid editors hired by an outside lobbing organization. Yes, I agree with all decisions about CAMERA. Same would apply to a team of CIA editors hired to improve the image of CIA in WP. Same would apply to a group of paid editors hired to improve image of Vladimir Putin. But we are ordinary editors who were not recruited by any outside organizations. We even have very different POVs and different ethnic and cultural backgrounds. But we simply wanted to discuss our personal business, yes, including also editing here.Biophys (talk) 13:16, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I personally strongly against such principle, because it would discourage a lot of people of participation in this project. Yes, this should be placed as a warning by huge letters to every new user: "By editing in wikipedia you allow Arbcom to examine all your private email correspondence, in the event it was stolen and submitted to Arbcom". Then, I would think twice about contributing here. Biophys (talk) 13:32, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

A small digression: WP:COI is a policy with many problems. Personally I would have no problem with a team of CIA or Russian presidential office editors getting paid of editing Wiki as long as they can respect NPOV and such. Anyway, I find it telling that we have, in all the evidence presented, never been accused of violating NPOV/RS/V or such. Even after a week to dig through our private emails, our most vocal opponents have not been able to produce a single example where we damage the mission of this project (encyclopedic content creation). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 15:55, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

That may be because we have only just begun Piotrus. And yes, the mission of this project is encyclopaedic content creation in a collegial environment. And you and your group have not contributed to the creation or maintaining of a collegial environment, but have rather turned it into a massive battleground. And there is plenty of evidence of that already. As to the creation of such a template, no way. --Russavia ^Dialogue 16:10, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

We, unlike you, have kept the battleground (uncivil comments and bad faith - as uncommon as it was in the first place) outside this project and in a private forum. This is a crucial difference. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:06, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I also would not object having "a team of CIA or Russian presidential office editors getting paid of editing Wiki as long as they can respect NPOV and such." But I can tell that all CIA-related pages are very well developed, expecially with respect to criticizing the Agency. This is great. However any articles related to Russian government are completely different. Some of them are empty, some filled with garbage, others look like promotion of a personality cult. What NPOV? This is joke. Any criticism is immediately removed. I said to Muscovite99 that he should not even try to insert anything of critical nature to Putin. He did not listen. Where he is? Blocked indefinitely in the both wikipedias. He was great editor, with excellent English skills; he made 25,000+ edits in Russian WP. I was stalked from Day 1 by Vlad and others when I tried editing human rights in Russia, but I finally gave up. And here we are again, subjects of an Arbitration, waiting to receive our sanctions.Biophys (talk) 21:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

For the record, can you link to discussion that led to Muscovite99 banning on en Wiki? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:12, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Links for Piotrus: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Muscovite99/Archive, Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive525#User:Muscovite99_evading_block, Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RRArchive92#Muscovite99_reported_by_Offliner_.28Result:_2_weeks.29, Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RRArchive91#Muscovite99_reported_by_Russavia_.28Result:_1_week.29. Hope this helps. --Russavia ^Dialogue 17:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

See, usually I'd just shrug at somebody's stupidity in not learning to respect 3RR and/or using socks to evade block, and move on. But considering some recent arguments here, don't you think we should consider that Muscovite was baited and blocked by some evil cabal, and thus that he should be unblocked to participate int his case? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:48, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure, we could bring Muscovite99 into the case. If he has any credible evidence that there was a systematic campaign of harrassment and stalking, by which he was forced by the imaginary cabal to create sockpuppets and the like. Herein lies the difference between the perceived, yet non-existent USSR/Russia cabal, and the real and evidenced anti-Russia/USSR cabal. There is no evidence for one and it is isn't credible, whilst the other one is proven and is credible. --Russavia ^Dialogue 18:04, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Administrators

I'm surprised there's no principle relating to the high standards expected of administrators (see past cases e.g. C68-FM-SV or A_Man_In_Black). Obviously the findings of fact when they come might amount to saying that there has been no serious breach of such standards (just the same as for any of the other principles) but given that at least one administrator has been temporarily de-sysopped for this case, I think it's apparent that the case raises that as a possible issue. 89.181.76.164 (talk) 16:15, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with this 110%. There should be such a principle in the proposed decision. --Russavia ^Dialogue 16:28, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

My complete agreement. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 21:54, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Purpose of Wikipedia

Why is there no Purpose of Wikipedia principle proposed? I would expect it to be the first principle for a case like this. After all, if the mailing list has influenced the formation of consensus, disrupted wikipedia processes, and attacked / harrassed / baited editors (all of which are alleged in various parts of the evidence), surely the ultimate motive was to influence the content of the encyclopedia. The logic of begining the principles with consensus escapes me, in that achieving consensus is desirable as a means towards high-quality unbiased content; consensus is not an end in itself. EdChem (talk) 17:08, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Alternatively, if as we claim, the list was designed to promote neutral content creation, was used to discuss reliability of sources, gather information on articles to created/expand, this is applicable as well. And anybody reading our private, sikrit correspondence from just before we were hacked (early September) should be able to see, for example, the massive amount of discussion that led to the creation of the 6-th most popular DYK ever, Nazi-Soviet military parade in Brest-Litovsk. That was a truly evil, cabalish thing we accomplished there... :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:17, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Piotrus, unless you have evidence of hacking, I have requested that you stop making that assertion. And no, I'm sorry but "we must have because none of us would have done this" is not evidence. — Coren ^(talk) 23:15, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

On consensus and participation

It's a bit difficult to achieve consensus when one side is determined to inject ultra-nationalist POV into articles. When a topic concerns a large country and a tiny country, there will always be a natural imbalance in participation, looking at the demographic. For example, if country X has 10 times the population of country Y, thus there are probably more ultra-nationalists in country X than the entire population of country Y, and there are 10 times more country X nationals editing Wikipedia than country Y nationals, what can be done then these country X nationalists are determined to push the viewpoint that country Y is a fascist apartheid state, for example? --Martintg (talk) 21:08, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

When a topic concerns a large country and a tiny country, there will always be a natural imbalance in participation–But according to your "enemies list" (20090326-0538-[WPM] Interesting list.eml) you have 17 enemies and 14 friends -- in addition to the 17 list members (according to ArbCom.) So that makes 14 more editors on your side. Where exactly is the imbalance, Martintg? Offliner (talk) 21:20, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I have no interest in reading personal info or such (my voyeurism has its limits), but where can I see, specifically, this list? Any links?Faustian (talk) 22:01, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

No-one is allowed to link to the list offwiki as that is expressly forbidden. --Russavia ^Dialogue 22:08, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the clairifcation. Perhaps someone can e-mail the info to me? The reason I ask is that I have dealt with these folks; some of my interactions have been very positive and I have a lot of respect for the editors using this mailing list, while interactions with others on the mailing list have been very negative. I'm curious if I've been mentioned.Faustian (talk) 22:36, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

If someone posts a "list of enemies" on WikiReview, does that mean all readers of that site endorse that list? Of course not. --Martintg (talk) 02:39, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Not my list. As I said above, I don't endorse one person's unsolicited compilation of a combination of their personal assumptions and observed past conflict. --Martintg (talk) 21:26, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Is there really nothing that can be done about our private correspondence being disseminated by that bloody WikiLeaks? Shit has hit the fan and other Wikipedians possess copies of a certain archive - well, we can all live with that, but I can't stand the idea that our personal information is being made accessible for all kinds of folks on the planet. --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 09:23, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not too happy with the archive being available on that site either, given that it includes a lot of my personal details, along with business details, etc. But the upside is that others can see how low some of your group really are. Oh, and the other up-side. It's all free advertising for my biz. Any publicity is good publicity. I should introduce a special offer; any Australian Wikipedian who places an order and enters the code BUSTED in the checkout, will receive a free gift from me to you. PMSL. But seriously, there is nothing you can do. The Aussie government couldn't get them to take down a list of banned websites, I doubt they care too much about a bunch of emails relating to WP. --Russavia ^Dialogue 09:44, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Additionally Miacek, even attempting to have them remove it, only risks creating a Streisand effect, whereby the distribution would become even more widespread, and gain greater notability. It would then run the risk of being picked up by media and reported on, which would give people reliable sources to use on WP. Remember the more that one tries to censor information in the internet age, the more widely distributed that information will become. One just has to grin and bear it. --Russavia ^Dialogue 10:06, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Unconstitutional

The proposed measure violates the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which guarantees freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of assembly. The Wikimedia Foundation is headquartered in California, which is a State of the United States.

Further, this proceeding smacks of McCarthyism and guilt by association.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It must be judged by the quality of its articles, not by the private associations of its authors. Nihil novi (talk) 02:15, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

As someone who watches Law and Order religiously, in fact am watching it now on Foxtel, I can tell you that the First Amendment only restricts the government from restricting freedom of speech, press or assembly, except in special cases (such as incitement to violence, etc). It does not cover private entities in any way, shape or form. As WMF is not a government institution, it is not bound by the First Amendment. --Russavia ^Dialogue 02:32, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

(ec) I suggest you re-read the First Amendment to the United States Constitution page and note that it restricts what Congress may do - that is, it is a limitation on the power of the Legislative Branch of the US Federal Government. ArbCom is not a part of Congress. So, no ArbCom action can be unconstitutional. Now, re-read the proposed decision page and recognise that no "measure" has yet been proposed. I would say your objection / argument is on pretty shaky ground. As for the comparison to McCarthyism, it hugely diminishes the damage done to lives and reputations by those "hearings" to even suggest that a wikipedia site ban (the harshest sanction ArbCom can impose) is remotely similar. EdChem (talk) 02:50, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I would also concur. The WMF not letting someone join a group in editing is no more unconstitutional than a conservative newspaper turning down an article from a liberal or a fraternal lodge refusing to let certain groups rent a building for a party. MBisanz ^talk 17:12, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Hey, folks. This guy has just learned WP:IAR, which is the only NPOV source for him on the subject. Vlad fedorov (talk) 20:04, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Another proposed principle - harrassment

As it is pretty clear from my evidence, and also other people's evidence, that this web brigade has engaged in harrassment and stalking of myself and other people both on and off wiki, a proposed principle dealing with this is absolutely required. As a victim of this long-term harrassment, my last twelve months have been a living hell for the most part, with little to no support from the community at large, as this group was able to continue their harrassment by teaming and gaming in discussions where the harrassment was being discussed. So I feel that this is absolutely required as a PD. --Russavia ^Dialogue 19:07, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you can think of a reasonable definition for "harassment" that isn't open to gaming, we'll certainly consider it. — Coren ^(talk) 03:51, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposed principal - vote secretly in ''findings of fact''

Arbcom can in certain situations vote secretly in ''findings of fact'' decisions. Dy yol (talk) 00:18, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

And the rationale behind that would be...? If anything, this entire case, due to its being based on evidence involving real identities of many editors, and all the real and alleged OUTing problems, should be handled in a more private manner. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:28, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Because in the Arbcom closed mailing list, members can "coordinate" better :D Dy yol (talk) 00:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

That may have been said in jest, but you realize that avoiding this is exactly why voting is done in public, right? — Coren ^(talk) 03:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry.Avoiding what?Dy yol (talk) 13:04, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

On-wiki disruption (proposed principle)

Users can be sanctioned only for their on-wiki activities. Opinions privately expressed off-wiki are not sanctionable per se.

Members of the list made many statements which would be inappropriate in the project space. However, they did this privately and off-wiki. Such opinions are not sanctionable per se. They can be used as a proof of "bad faith" only when they evidently resulted in disruptive activities on-wiki.

I believe that most of the events would took place regardless to email discussions. This includes heated on-wiki debates after splitting article Occupation of Baltic States, appeal of Thatcher sanctions by Radekz and edit warring that was not coordinated by email. Maybe some of the email discussions even helped to reduce tensions. I often argued against any actions by members of the group which could be interpreted as disruption (see emails).

However, in many cases certain opinions or announcements in emails indeed resulted in the increased participation by members of the groups in different forums, including article talk pages, ANI and RfC. I believe this did not make any harm in most cases, especially when people came to debate the issues rather than vote.

I believe that sanctions could be used only in the following situations: (a) user A asks to vote "yes" on an RfC/AfD and user B comes and votes "yes" without even talking; (b) user A asks to revert article X to his version, and user B indeed reverts it to this version. However, even this is problematic if user B frequently visits AfDs on EE subjects and therefore would vote anyway, or if user B had article X on his watch list and previously edited it, so he would pay attention anyway.

An important point: groups of like-minded users do not need email to coordinate their actions. They do it by following each other's edit histories, and it does not make a lot of difference how exactly they coordinate their actions. Biophys (talk) 14:46, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I think you are engaged in wishful thinking. Using a mailing list to subvert consensus and organize attacks against perceived enemies is a bannable offense. Jehochman ^Talk 15:13, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

The moment any such attack occurs, not before. If I propose in a private email to hack into Jimbo Wales' computer and change something on wiki, certain people to whom I did not send such an email could think this is for real and not a joke. Only when something becomes real on-wiki, it is sanctionable. Dc76\^talk 17:33, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I also would like to see at least one example where the wikipedia consensus has been actually subverted by using this mailing list. There was no such cases to my knowledge. Of course I may be wrong, because I did not even read a lot of emails. As about "personal attacks", this is something when one user make unsubstantiated accusations about another user without supporting diffs. This is sanctionable of course, regardless to email discussions.Biophys (talk) 20:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed (in reply to Jehochman above). One of the more dispiriting aspects of this affair to date is the extent to which some of those involved seem to be arguing from an essentially legalistic standpoint. My understanding is that, whilst we should expect ArbCom to participate with a professional understanding of what due process should involve, this is not a court of law. Rather it is a procedure that attempts to discover whether or not the community's policies and ethical standards are being upheld. There is no question of some kind of a "not proven" verdict based on technicalities. I encourage those who feel unjustly accused to concentrate on clearing their names rather than on diversionary tactics. Ben MacDui 16:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I've been hoping that those accused of improprieties would come forward with evidence to show that the email archive was faked. I just looked over the evidence page and found nothing of the sort. Apparently the concerns of many editors about the activities coordinated by this mailing list are well founded. Jehochman ^Talk 16:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I heard it is 10 MB of text. I use Gmail, and frankly speaking, I am not even able to verify xxxxxx-xxxx type references, because Gmail arranges messages by conversations, so I need to be told on which date was the last email in that conversation. My understanding, however, is that Durova is doing such a comparative analysis. P.S. By the way, I was very pleasantly surprised by your integrity when you refused to look over the archive mailed to you, and forwarded it to ArbCom. Dc76\^talk 17:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Note to myself: If I ever decide to participate in an inappropriate for wiki closed email group I should make subtle changes in quoted text whenever I reply to someone's messages. In fact I might be tempted to organize my own leak of allegedly my email with apparent signs of tempering to blame it later on my opposition's attempt to discredit me. (Igny (talk) 17:54, 27 September 2009 (UTC))

My initial proposal (and some other statements) has nothing to do with any "legalistic complaints". This is about developing a couple of simple and fair rules which would make it very clear for any user that creation of such email lists is forbidden. If I had an idea that email discussions off-wiki may end up like that, I would never be a part of this. We need some policy changes here, and that is more important than banning me and a few others. As about note by Igny, I started suspecting that some messages might indeed be forged after a conversation yesterday with Viriditas. If Arbcom decides that any of my specific comments are incriminating, I would like to receive these specific threads by email and verify. This is all.Biophys (talk) 19:37, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Again with the forgery meme? As of yet, there is no indication that any messages have been forged, nor have any list members come forward to point at a specific message and say "this was forged". I will be the first person to step forward and defend any member of this mailing list who claims that a specific e-mail has been forged. Viriditas (talk) 02:08, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I strongly doubt that Arbcom is considering sanctioning opinions expressed on the mailing list. There are more than enough problematic actions. This will probably become clear when Arbcom begins workshopping the evidence and proposed findings of fact. Thatcher 00:42, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Cla68's opinion (for what it's worth)

There is probably no greater threat to Wikipedia's credibility and viability than groups of editors secretly banding together to skew article content a certain way or to bully or suppress other editors. Past revelations as well as the suspected use of "members only" lists to coordinate on-wiki actions with the intent of gaming Wikipedia's policies and system have caused deserved outrage among Wikipedia participants, and have driven away many editors who otherwise would have been valuable contributors to this project.

Unfortunately, based on evidence presented, such as Viriditas' and Thatcher's, it appears that the Eastern Europe email archive is authentic. Just as unfortunate is the reactions by the members of the list when caught. They have persistently denied wrongdoing in spite of clear evidence to the contrary. If the members of this mailing group, once the emails came out, had immediately admitted fault, apologized, and promised never to repeat the behavior, then I think lesser sanctions such as topic bans, a desysop, and/or six month-to-one year bans for the members of that list could have been on the table. Because of the unrepentent prestidigitation and refusal to take responsibility for their actions, however, I believe that a lifetime ban from en.Wikipedia for the members of that group is, unfortunately, the appropriate response in this case. Cla68 (talk) 04:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Let's not forget that the original claim was that over half of the 3000+ emails were said to be about "getting Russavia". Given that most of the members joined the list after I had accidentally forwarded WMC's email to the list, how exactly are all list members culpable for my discussion that you link snippets of above? --Martintg (talk) 06:42, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

But how does the over-half-the-emails claim help you? If I accuse you of doing [a bad thing] 1,500 times and you say "ha, no, I only did it 273 times at the most!" then ah... you did [a bad thing] a bunch of time and can expect people to react accordingly. I'm obviously missing something here but I can't imagine what. (Beyond that, I'm not sure at all that all list members are being held culpable for you sharing an email). 89.180.30.42 (talk) 09:32, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Martin, the issue about private communication (emails and chats) forwarded to the list is not particularly important, except to the extent it suggests that members who have expressed outrage (and even suggested that people should be blocked or even criminally prosecuted for merely reading the archive) at the leak or theft of the archive are less concerned when they are they ones doing the sharing. Any repercussions over your forwarding of WMC's email should probably be a private matter between you and him. And, of course, any mischaracterizations or exaggerations of the nature of the list by the first person to read it are largely irrelevant now that many people have had a chance to read it for themselves. The important issue is that these communications are the tangible record of an attempt to undermine Wikipedia on multiple levels. Thatcher 11:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

There is no moral equivalence between accidently forwarding one email and purposely forwarding thousands of emails. And the exaggerations of the nature of the list by the first person to read it is relevant in context of this argument "First they claim it was an outright forgery, now they claim aspects of it was salted, etc" I've only kept those emails of interest to me, so I'm in no position to verify whether particular emails were salted or not. To be honest a lot of the emails went straight into the trash unread. Sure the list existed, but did it make any material difference in slanting content or undermining process within Wikipedia, despite what some list members might of allegedly wished? I don't think so. In regard to AfD's I can't think of any I wouldn't have voted in anyway or differently without the existence of the list. The same with articles edited, I would have edited the same ones in the same way with or without a list. Or protecting members from sanction, Giano seems to have a traveling crew that attempts to protect him as the latest Wikidramu on ANI demonstrated. It didn't stop me getting my first 3RR block 24 hours after I had undone my 4th revert, nor did it result PasswordUsername getting sanctioned even with 4 reverts, so this list is pretty ineffective tool to undermine Wikipedia, it is not as if admins involved in AE are ignorant of who's who in EE space. But it did result in better articles, like the recent record breaking DYK with 30,000+ views.

I know you are still sore over that AE case, but it was a mess from the get go, with Sandstein closing the initial two cases, Jehochman closed the third, then he reopened them all, Shell started an investigation, then you stepped in imposing sanctions all around, upsetting Shell in the process and the whole thing turned into a mess and you then ended up vacating the result. As you recall I fully supported a 1RR restrictions all around, there needs to be balance in an area as strongly polarised as EE, and eliminating one group will do more to undermined the quality of articles in Wikipedia than anything else, unless ofcourse you think having no one around to oppose the insertion of stuff like this or this will be beneficial to the encyclopedia. --Martintg (talk) 13:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)